STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Glad you said this. I dont think he is the GM - kinda hard to win with that roster.
He wins despite the lack of talent imo. Handling insane personalities and a crappy roster yet still makes the playoffs.
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For Steeler Fans - Should Mike Tomlin Have Been Fired At End Of 2024 Season? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
Glad you said this. I dont think he is the GM - kinda hard to win with that roster.
He wins despite the lack of talent imo. Handling insane personalities and a crappy roster yet still makes the playoffs.
Do you really think the NFL stinks overall?
crushedspirit
Footballguy
How many 1st team all-pro team type players are needed on your roster before one can consider it to not be poor?
There's 4 on that Steeler roster now that have earned those honors over the years.
Last season there were 2 AFC teams that won at least one playoff game with 1 first-team all pro on their roster. In the NFC there was 1 team that won a playoff game with 0 on their roster. We can go back to 2023 and beyond and see teams have won with less talent on their roster, but the apologist will never stop with the excuses that have all dried up when stepping back and adding up the relevant facts.
There's 4 on that Steeler roster now that have earned those honors over the years.
Last season there were 2 AFC teams that won at least one playoff game with 1 first-team all pro on their roster. In the NFC there was 1 team that won a playoff game with 0 on their roster. We can go back to 2023 and beyond and see teams have won with less talent on their roster, but the apologist will never stop with the excuses that have all dried up when stepping back and adding up the relevant facts.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
I do. But this might not be on topic…..
Why?
I think the games are manipulated/massaged similar to how the NBA does things.
I think they learned that controversy (like the Dez catch/non catch) caused interest and conversation to explode.
Rule changes to hitting - because they spent two decades paying doctors to lie about the effects of CTE. The game has been ruined just to cover their butts. Had they just admitted that the game causes brain injuries similar to boxing MMA and every other contact sport they wouldn’t have needed to bastardize the game’s rules.
Rules changes to practices -
Players can’t hit in practic anymore, and the product on the field has suffered.
Thursday night games/oversaturation-
Thursday night games stink because it’s too short of a turn around. International games are ridiculous.
The NFLs partnering with gambling. I don’t think I need to even explain how awful that is.but hey, it’s cool to have 18 year olds gambling on their phone. (I know this is not exclusive too the NFL.)
Free agency -by not having a Larry Bird rule for teams to resign players that they drafted at a Hometown discount causes more roster upheaval. I think it’s in the game best interest as well as the fans and players to have a rule like this. The fans are happy because the players get to stay, teams get rewarded by drafting well.
It’s still a game that I played as a kid and I love and as much as I dislike the current state of the game, I’d be a liar if I didn’t get emotionally invested every fall.
Thanks. I disagree but I appreciate your sharing your insights on how you see it. Thanks.
Although I will say I like the idea of making where players can be fairly compensated and also stay with a "home team" if that's possible.
SteadyMobbin hopefully not me. That's a pretty passionate post. The NFL is probably more popular than ever before.
The bottom line? The game has changed, but that doesn’t mean it’s ruined. It’s evolving, just like every other major sport. If the product were truly broken, ratings wouldn’t still dominate television, and fans wouldn’t be as invested every season.
For me the oversaturation and gambling partnerships are a concern.
The bottom line? The game has changed, but that doesn’t mean it’s ruined. It’s evolving, just like every other major sport. If the product were truly broken, ratings wouldn’t still dominate television, and fans wouldn’t be as invested every season.
For me the oversaturation and gambling partnerships are a concern.
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
Respectfully....Mike has the lion's share of the power in that front office, and is hella involved in personnel. How many other NFL head coaches are showing up at the Senior Bowl or college Pro Days and running drills?
Khan, who I like, is an analytics/cap guy. His asst. is the "scouting" guy. The two of them have been attempting to change the scouting/draft mindset there for the last few years, certainly.
But to think Rooney/Colbert/Khan and now Rooney/Khan/Weidl, are foisting players on him that Mike isnt totally on board with is...lets say "very difficult to believe." Ownership pretty much views/treats him like the team's CEO. He basically just "bromanced" Aaron Rodgers onto the team after a 3 month sideshow, ffs. We're supposed to buy that came from Khan/Weidl and Mike is just standing over there shrugging in the corner "What'm I gonna do? This is who they gave me." Doesnt pass the smell test at all, IMO.
He is intimately involved in personnel and has been for a while.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
I will take your word for it.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
He probably has upped his roll since Khan took over, but the player decisions have also gotten much better since then as well. There has clearly been a big shift since Colbert left. That strongly indicates Tomlin didn't have the lion share of the power
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
Well, then we disagree.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
And I have evidence and you are basing your argument on opinion and general perception.
Insider Jeremy Fowler stated that Tomlin "led the charge" to bring Rodgers to Pittsburgh, engaging in multiple conversations over months to make it happen. That level of involvement suggests he has significant influence over personnel decisions. https://sports.yahoo.com/article/insider-reveals-steelers-hc-mike-183003207.html
The truth likely lies somewhere between both your valid viewpoints
I don't claim to have any inside knowledge of who has the power. But for such a well respected coach as Mike Tomlin, I'd be shocked if he didn't have a ton of say in things.
Not Bill Parcells' "If I'm going to cook I get to choose the groceries" level, but a significant amount. I'd guess most of the top coaches have something similar if they desire it.
Not Bill Parcells' "If I'm going to cook I get to choose the groceries" level, but a significant amount. I'd guess most of the top coaches have something similar if they desire it.
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
I maintain: I disagree.
I'm quite comfortable in believing the following without the hard "evidence" you're claiming you have (you don't any more than I do, unless you're secretly Art Rooney II, I suppose): The Steelers are, and have been, a coach-centric organization since at least 1970. Is Tomlin "Belicheck-ian"? No, but we're to believe Khan or Colbert definitively had more pull than he did, particular at Colbert's tail end, over the last 6-8 years? I'm not buying it. He's had an enormous amount of input on personnel, good with the bad.
"They drafted a few more OL instead of reaching on small off-ball LBs, 3rd round SS prospects, overage RBs, and local elderly QB prospects in Round 1 the last few years" isn't really evidence Mike has any more or less input than he did when they were making the aforementioned reaches. Hopefully, it shows he's listening to the scouts more than the owner lately, but even some of their more recent early picks have been fairly called into question by many (including yourself, if my memory serves...and it does) e.g. Jones was a pretty big project, "Fautanu is a G", Harmon had medical questions, etc, etc.
They certainly appear to be attempting to move more toward a more GM/scouting-centric outfit, since they love to proclaim that copying Philly's blueprint is the way forward, but they aren't near there yet.
-Great in the locker room - which according to some is the most important
-Very good to great on creating defense and winning with it
But it's hard to overlook the poor record on challenges and frequent game clock miscues as well as an inability to create or get creators of offense on board. Ben - for all of his crap - was REALLY GOOD - and probably should have at least one or more rings. That offense with the triple B's was damn good.
I only said 'not fire' because who we gonna get?
In his defense, I suspect he was not responsible for the Kenny pick, easily probably the biggest gaffe drafting. Most of the other misses were in hindsight perhaps easy to see but that one was pretty bad
-Very good to great on creating defense and winning with it
But it's hard to overlook the poor record on challenges and frequent game clock miscues as well as an inability to create or get creators of offense on board. Ben - for all of his crap - was REALLY GOOD - and probably should have at least one or more rings. That offense with the triple B's was damn good.
I only said 'not fire' because who we gonna get?
In his defense, I suspect he was not responsible for the Kenny pick, easily probably the biggest gaffe drafting. Most of the other misses were in hindsight perhaps easy to see but that one was pretty bad
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
Thought experiment: If both Mike Tomlin and Omar Khan called up Art Rooney II this evening and claimed neither could work with the other any more, and demanded Art remove them or they'd quit. Let's pretend Art acquiesces to not have a split FO. Which guy do we think is more likely to still be a Steelers' employee come Monday evening?
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irish eyes
Footballguy
The ever popular statement of "who will they get to replace him". Not very difficult to find someone that doesn't win playoff games. If mediocre is your thing, Tomlin is your man. Maybe the most overrated coach in history.
I truly have no idea what Mr. Rooney would do as I don't know how he values the two employees. My guess is if he had to choose between the two, he'd lean toward keeping the person with a much longer track record of success at the position - Tomlin. Khan is a long-time Steelers guy but just a couple of years into the GM job.
Like most employers, I'd guess a lot of the decision would be in how easy it would be to replace either position. My opinion would be it's more difficult to find a good head coach than a good GM.
Now a question in return - What are you hoping to determine with the expiriment?
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
That believing Mike Tomlin has an incredible amount of power in the Steelers organization, including when it comes to personnel, isn't a exactly a "hot take?"
I'm bored, mostly. I can leave the conversation if it isn't contributing much. Have a blessed evening.
brewer
Footballguy
For those who haven't and are interested, check out the Mike Tomlin episode on the Pivot podcast on YouTube. When he talks about hiring Brian Flores, I think you get a good sense of how the Steelers operate.
www.youtube.com
Edited to add the link as I was not able yesterday.
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Edited to add the link as I was not able yesterday.
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Thanks. I'd agree Tomlin has a lot of power in the organization. For sure, as you said, that's no hot take. As I said, I don't think it's anywhere like what coaches like Parcells demanded, but I'd expect he he has a good bit of sway.
Maybe a better way to ask the question: If you for some reason had to make a choice between Tomlin and Khan, who would you choose?
Not sure why you'd think that. I think it's interesting and it's why I asked.
I can see it as an interesting question for teams where it feels like the GMs are stars.
If Jeff Lurie had to choose between Sirianni and Roseman, who would he pick? Who would you as the Shark Pool poster pick? Those I think can be interesting things too.
darksideofoz
Footballguy
I've always found it interesting when people say Tomlin handles divas and malcontents well. My opinion is the exact opposite. I don't think he does well with them at all.
His greatest asset as a coach is his will power and stoicism.
He should be fired. He should have been fired years ago.
His greatest asset as a coach is his will power and stoicism.
He should be fired. He should have been fired years ago.
What specific players and examples are you thinking of to make you think this?
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
I think I know where you're going with this question, but my superficial guess is that some of the responses would be: Antonio Brown, Dionte Johnson, George Pickens, LeVeon Bell, Big Ben.
darksideofoz
Footballguy
I can't think of a single time he has handled any such players in a way that made me think he did the best he could. After several of those, and there have been many, I think he just isn't that good at it.
But what players and instances do you mean?
Wasn't going anywhere other than trying to understand what specific instances he meant and trying to understand his point.
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
Lurie picks Roseman over anyone, probably including his wife.
nightmare
Footballguy
Joe, The WR's that M Tomlin drafted without "issues" is shorter then the one's he drafted with issues- (and fell in the draft). They were talented but could be
trouble. Along with the three WR's already listed you could add- Plax Burress, M Wheaton, M Bryant, C Claypool, JuJu? and Roman Wilson.
No one signs JuJu to a multi year deal but he is still around.
Agreed the Steelers have had some divas and challenging players. No question there. My question was asking how that he handled them so poorly. For cases like Antonio Brown, it seemed to me like the opposite. He managed to get world class production out of him for a good while. And then when it seemed he realized it wasn't tenable he moved on. And we know how he fared without Tomlin. That's more what I had seen.
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5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
Brown could be viewed as an example of Tomlin "handling a diva well", if "handling a diva well" is classified as doing a very, very good job of running interference for the public facing messaging related to Brown. Over the years since Brown's departure we've seen reports from former teammates/beats/etc. claiming Brown was always a pretty loose cannon from jump (and got worse as the years/money progressed). Ryan Clark was famously the most vocal guy, of course.
Brown's personal "socials presence" not being quite as prevalent (or at least having a much different tone) early in his career than it was later probably helped Mike out in keeping control of the narrative where Brown was concerned a bit, too. I also could believe Mike gave AB more leeway/rope because even with his attitude, by all accounts, he worked his a$$ off when it came to football for most of his time in Pittsburgh (until, of course, he totally quit on them at the end). And he clearly produced.
I can also also believe how that all played out with Brown caused the coach/team to have a much "shorter fuse"/quicker trigger on the guys who've followed. Perhaps they'd have given some of those guys more chances if they never went through what they went through with AB.
It certainly hasn't made the team avoid going after perceived "WRs with attitude/effort questions", that's for sure, but they haven't really gotten any of them to "turn that attitude around/produce in spite of it" long-term either. So, I guess that could be viewed as "handling them poorly."
Brown's personal "socials presence" not being quite as prevalent (or at least having a much different tone) early in his career than it was later probably helped Mike out in keeping control of the narrative where Brown was concerned a bit, too. I also could believe Mike gave AB more leeway/rope because even with his attitude, by all accounts, he worked his a$$ off when it came to football for most of his time in Pittsburgh (until, of course, he totally quit on them at the end). And he clearly produced.
I can also also believe how that all played out with Brown caused the coach/team to have a much "shorter fuse"/quicker trigger on the guys who've followed. Perhaps they'd have given some of those guys more chances if they never went through what they went through with AB.
It certainly hasn't made the team avoid going after perceived "WRs with attitude/effort questions", that's for sure, but they haven't really gotten any of them to "turn that attitude around/produce in spite of it" long-term either. So, I guess that could be viewed as "handling them poorly."
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
It's a couple of years old now and I'm sure some folks will dismiss this but I thought it was interesting how Tomlin was voted by far the coach most NFL players wanted to play for.
www.nytimes.com
Of course, just because he was by far the winner of where most players wanted to play doesn't make him a great coach. Mike McDaniel got a lot of votes. But so did Andy Reid, Dan Campbell, Sean McVay, Kyle Shanahan and Nick Sirianni. But thought it was interesting from a respect angle.
Anonymous NFL player poll 2023: Best player? Biggest trash talker? Most annoying fans?
Patrick Mahomes was an overwhelming choice for best player, followed by Aaron Donald, with Steelers coach Mike Tomlin held in high regard.
www.nytimes.com
Of course, just because he was by far the winner of where most players wanted to play doesn't make him a great coach. Mike McDaniel got a lot of votes. But so did Andy Reid, Dan Campbell, Sean McVay, Kyle Shanahan and Nick Sirianni. But thought it was interesting from a respect angle.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
Tomlin certainly wasn't drafting the guys who started years before he joined Pittsburgh.
Joe, you’re killing me with the Bill Parcells comparison even if it’s not a perfect match. Parcells was both head coach and GM, one of the greatest motivators in football history. He took teams from the gutter and turned them into winners. Meanwhile, MT is a head coach in title but seems to have growing influence over personnel decisions, even if it’s nowhere near Parcells’ level as you’ve acknowledged.
A more fitting comparison might be Barry Switzer, who inherited a team that had won a Super Bowl just two years prior. He capitalized on that momentum for one championship but after that, the success faded.
A more fitting comparison might be Barry Switzer, who inherited a team that had won a Super Bowl just two years prior. He capitalized on that momentum for one championship but after that, the success faded.
nightmare
Footballguy
Mike Tomlin has been the head coach since 2007. A Brown was drafted in 2010. All these players listed are after A Brown.
Who do you mean?
Thanks but I'm
I tried to be as clear as I could. "As I said, I don't think it's anywhere like what coaches like Parcells demanded, but I'd expect he has a good bit of sway."
You said you acknowledge that so I'm not sure what you mean.
On that point, I was talking about how much control I thought he might have.
Sure, Tomlin and Switzer inherited teams that had won a Super Bowl. But Tomlin taking a team and then going into his 19th year seems notable.
Maintaining a winning percentage of #7 (tied) among all active NFL coaches with as many games as he's coached seems strong. https://www.footballdb.com/coaches/index.html?sort=pct
Regular-season success doesn’t always translate to postseason dominance. Joe several people in these threads have mentioned how MT last 8 years playoff wise won loss record is abysmal.
Thanks but I'm
I tried to be as clear as I could. "As I said, I don't think it's anywhere like what coaches like Parcells demanded, but I'd expect he has a good bit of sway."
You said you acknowledge that so I'm not sure what you mean.
On that point, I was talking about how much control I thought he might have.
Sure, Tomlin and Switzer inherited teams that had won a Super Bowl. But Tomlin taking a team and then going into his 19th year seems notable.
Maintaining a winning percentage of #7 (tied) among all active NFL coaches with as many games as he's coached seems strong. https://www.footballdb.com/coaches/index.html?sort=pct
When you're slightly comparing or putting him in the same paragraph one of the best coaches - GMs in NFL history. One can easily knock that comparison down a little with a lesser quality coach like Switzer. I think more fans would take MT over BS. Literally!
Regular-season success doesn’t always translate to postseason dominance. Joe several people in these threads have mentioned how MT last 8 years playoff wise won loss record is abysmal.
Thanks but I'm
I tried to be as clear as I could. "As I said, I don't think it's anywhere like what coaches like Parcells demanded, but I'd expect he has a good bit of sway."
You said you acknowledge that so I'm not sure what you mean.
On that point, I was talking about how much control I thought he might have.
Sure, Tomlin and Switzer inherited teams that had won a Super Bowl. But Tomlin taking a team and then going into his 19th year seems notable.
Maintaining a winning percentage of #7 (tied) among all active NFL coaches with as many games as he's coached seems strong. https://www.footballdb.com/coaches/index.html?sort=pct
When you're slightly comparing or putting him in the same paragraph one of the best coaches - GMs in NFL history. One can easily knock that comparison down a little with a lesser quality coach like Switzer. I think more fans would take MT over BS. Literally!
Sure. My comments were not about regular season or postseason dominance. They were about how much control the coach had.
nightmare
Footballguy
Since 2011 Tomlin's playoff record is 3-9. Prior to that it was 5-2. Since 2017 it's 0-5.
Thanks but I'm
I tried to be as clear as I could. "As I said, I don't think it's anywhere like what coaches like Parcells demanded, but I'd expect he has a good bit of sway."
You said you acknowledge that so I'm not sure what you mean.
On that point, I was talking about how much control I thought he might have.
Sure, Tomlin and Switzer inherited teams that had won a Super Bowl. But Tomlin taking a team and then going into his 19th year seems notable.
Maintaining a winning percentage of #7 (tied) among all active NFL coaches with as many games as he's coached seems strong. https://www.footballdb.com/coaches/index.html?sort=pct
A third of Tomlin's regular season records(7 out of 18) are 8 and 9 win teams.
19th year is notable. We can have 3,4,5? threads on this and still come down to- he stays/he goes in all of them.
On this topic I think Tomlin does have Parcell's like control for Defense and more committee for offense with the OC, Tomlin, and GM.
Thanks. I don't think we need more threads. This was a poll with a specific question about the end of 2024 and it's been a great discussion I think. Clearly lots of different opinions but that's what makes it interesting. I always like when other people see something very differently than I do as it makes for good talk.
You could well be right and Tomlin is both the HC and unspoken defensive GM. I don't think that's the case as I think Khan has some responsibility. But I'm not in the actual office and you could well be right there.
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