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FYI Sleep is as important as diet and working out (1 Viewer)

I know of 2 couples that sleep in separate beds. According to them, it's better for their health and marriage.

ETA: separate rooms as well due to snoring.

 
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Just listened to Rogan’s podcast with Matthew Walker who is a sleep expert.  The podcast is a good listen and pretty scary for those who don’t get enough sleep.  He said the percent of people (rounded) who can get by with less than 7 hours of sleep is 0%.  

I hate to sleep but have tried to get 6-7 hours in years gone by and the last couple of years 7-8.  I started taking melatonin regularly and it seems to help (even if it’s placebo effect).  As mentioned earlier I the thread, I’m convinced my mothers poor help is directly related to lack of sleep as here genes and lifestyle are good.

Bio:  Matthew Walker is Professor of Neuroscience and Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, and Founder and Director of the Center for Human Sleep Science. Check out his book "Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams" on Amazon.

 
Just listened to Rogan’s podcast with Matthew Walker who is a sleep expert.  The podcast is a good listen and pretty scary for those who don’t get enough sleep.  He said the percent of people (rounded) who can get by with less than 7 hours of sleep is 0%.  

I hate to sleep but have tried to get 6-7 hours in years gone by and the last couple of years 7-8.  I started taking melatonin regularly and it seems to help (even if it’s placebo effect).  As mentioned earlier I the thread, I’m convinced my mothers poor help is directly related to lack of sleep as here genes and lifestyle are good.

Bio:  Matthew Walker is Professor of Neuroscience and Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, and Founder and Director of the Center for Human Sleep Science. Check out his book "Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams" on Amazon.
Is there a link to that podcast?  I've never listened to one.

 
Me and the wife sleep in seperate beds, it just works better that way.  I MUST fade off listening to music, no the headphone thing just doesn't work, she can;t sleep with any sound going on.  It's really no big deal at all, obviously the first few years of the marraige......the hell with music.

Sleep far more important than diet/working out.

 
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Just listened to Rogan’s podcast with Matthew Walker who is a sleep expert.  The podcast is a good listen and pretty scary for those who don’t get enough sleep.  He said the percent of people (rounded) who can get by with less than 7 hours of sleep is 0%. 
Okay, this is great and all, but as always with these kind of responses I have to ask the question, idk if he says in the podcast, does he define "getting by?"

Roganis usually good at thinking and asking questions, so he must have asked, right?

 
My wife gets up at 5:30 and she is not easy to sleep with.
Sorry, gb - but - this just ain't true. ☹️

For myself, I usually get between 4 and 5 per night, but will nap occasionally - kinda catty.

I've tried lots of the recommends here, but, since I am mostly retired, I live on a 30 hour schedule rather than a 24 hour one.

It sux in some ways, but it keeps me healthier (body & mind) then forcefully fighting the insomnia.

When I worked a 9-5'er - I could not do this (spacing out my sleeping to fit my natural cycle) - and it wrecked me...badly!

Gllll to all.

P.S. ...just kiddin' Cav  ;)

 
Okay, this is great and all, but as always with these kind of responses I have to ask the question, idk if he says in the podcast, does he define "getting by?"

Roganis usually good at thinking and asking questions, so he must have asked, right?
It’s a 2 hour podcast so he goes in depth on the negative impacts.  Higher risk of cancer, dementia - all cause mortality rate increases:

A lot of things he said were pretty eye opening but one thing in particular stood out - (paraphrasing) humans are the only animals to intentionally not get enough sleep and not only do we do that but many people celebrate it.  Which is just stupid because studies show that we really aren’t more productive when we don’t sleep.  

He said it (getting more sleep) is basically the best thing we could all do today to improve our health.  

He talked about Reagan and Thacther and how both were known (and celebrated) for their stamina and the apparent lack of sleep they would get.  He points out that both developed dementia later in life.

 
It’s a 2 hour podcast so he goes in depth on the negative impacts.  Higher risk of cancer, dementia - all cause mortality rate increases:

A lot of things he said were pretty eye opening but one thing in particular stood out - (paraphrasing) humans are the only animals to intentionally not get enough sleep and not only do we do that but many people celebrate it.  Which is just stupid because studies show that we really aren’t more productive when we don’t sleep.  

He said it (getting more sleep) is basically the best thing we could all do today to improve our health.  

He talked about Reagan and Thacther and how both were known (and celebrated) for their stamina and the apparent lack of sleep they would get.  He points out that both developed dementia later in life.
:thumbup:

Don't think as clearly.  More likely to skip a scheduled workout. Make poor dietary choices. Then when the day is over instead of preparing for the next day, so the same thing doesn't happen say F it.  Then start the next day playing from behind again.

 
Just listened to Rogan’s podcast with Matthew Walker who is a sleep expert.  The podcast is a good listen and pretty scary for those who don’t get enough sleep.  He said the percent of people (rounded) who can get by with less than 7 hours of sleep is 0%.  

I hate to sleep but have tried to get 6-7 hours in years gone by and the last couple of years 7-8.  I started taking melatonin regularly and it seems to help (even if it’s placebo effect).  As mentioned earlier I the thread, I’m convinced my mothers poor help is directly related to lack of sleep as here genes and lifestyle are good.

Bio:  Matthew Walker is Professor of Neuroscience and Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, and Founder and Director of the Center for Human Sleep Science. Check out his book "Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams" on Amazon.
Hate to sleep?   Dam..I love to sleep.  My sweet spot is 9 hours.

If we don`t go out on a Fri or Sat night and I go to bed at 10pm and get up around 7am I feel totally rejuvenated.

 
Just listened to Rogan’s podcast with Matthew Walker who is a sleep expert.  The podcast is a good listen and pretty scary for those who don’t get enough sleep.  He said the percent of people (rounded) who can get by with less than 7 hours of sleep is 0%.  

I hate to sleep but have tried to get 6-7 hours in years gone by and the last couple of years 7-8.  I started taking melatonin regularly and it seems to help (even if it’s placebo effect).  As mentioned earlier I the thread, I’m convinced my mothers poor help is directly related to lack of sleep as here genes and lifestyle are good.

Bio:  Matthew Walker is Professor of Neuroscience and Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, and Founder and Director of the Center for Human Sleep Science. Check out his book "Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams" on Amazon.
Thanks for posting this. I’d like to check out the podcast. Walker’s book is excellent.

 
We have a weird relationship with sleep in this country. As if it's somehow weak or bad to get good sleep.

I used to have bad insomnia, and generally had sleep issues. I'd stay up late, "get by" with 6 hours, and make it up on the weekend by sleeping until 10-11am.

I've posted this in other health/etc threads, but my health (both physical and mental) improved when I started making sleep a priority. I started waking up / going to bed at the same time every night (weekends included). I work at home, so midnight is my "bedtime", and I wake naturally around 7 - 7:30. It's great, and I have zero insomnia anymore. 

 
It’s a 2 hour podcast so he goes in depth on the negative impacts.  Higher risk of cancer, dementia - all cause mortality rate increases:

A lot of things he said were pretty eye opening but one thing in particular stood out - (paraphrasing) humans are the only animals to intentionally not get enough sleep and not only do we do that but many people celebrate it.  Which is just stupid because studies show that we really aren’t more productive when we don’t sleep.  

He said it (getting more sleep) is basically the best thing we could all do today to improve our health.  

He talked about Reagan and Thacther and how both were known (and celebrated) for their stamina and the apparent lack of sleep they would get.  He points out that both developed dementia later in life.
I worked night shift for 11 years and it wreaked havoc on my sleep. Not just the timing, but amount and fragmentation of sleep periods. I had a couple night night terrors when I woke up screaming, which eventually led me to change my work hours. It’s taken a few years to get back into a more normal sleep schedule. For me, exercising until exhaustion before it gets too late really helps.

I’d like to hear the data on the bolded. I’ll have to check out the podcast.

And melatonin ain’t placebo, especially for jet lag.

 
I’d like to hear the data on the bolded. I’ll have to check out the podcast.
A well rested person thinks clearer.  They exercise better.  They're more likely to make good diet choices.  Outside factors can still influence stressors, but I think a well rested person is put into a better position to manage those stressors.  And they are more likely to get to the end of the day without totally draining their energy.  So they can then prepare for the next day rather than just tapping out.

It all feeds into each other, but it all starts with rest,

 
A well rested person thinks clearer.  They exercise better.  They're more likely to make good diet choices.  Outside factors can still influence stressors, but I think a well rested person is put into a better position to manage those stressors.  And they are more likely to get to the end of the day without totally draining their energy.  So they can then prepare for the next day rather than just tapping out.

It all feeds into each other, but it all starts with rest,
I think everything you said is probably true, but I'd like to know the data supporting it being the best thing one can do for health. Like mortality vs. average hours of nightly sleep, controlled for confounders like obesity and smoking. As far as I know, the latter two are the most important modifiable risk factors for disease.

 
Having access to my wife's glucose monitor data has given me some insights here.  Your body turns over a lot of liver functions roughly starting 4hrs into sleep.  Sometimes up to 6.  If sleep is disturbed in that time it just says #### it. Maybe tomorrow.  

In that situation your body is in catch up mode all day with glycogen and other factors and is much more insulin resistant.  So it's not shocking to see sleep and type 2 correlation.  Among other factors. 

 
Hate to sleep?   Dam..I love to sleep.  My sweet spot is 9 hours.

If we don`t go out on a Fri or Sat night and I go to bed at 10pm and get up around 7am I feel totally rejuvenated.
I guess my point is I’ve always had that child-like mindset of, I don’t want to miss anything and would rather be awake doing stuff than sleeping.  In an ideal world (or maybe I should say MY ideal world) sleep would not be required.  

And to reiterate, I highly recommend the podcast - you will definitely learn a lot about sleep.

 
We have a weird relationship with sleep in this country. As if it's somehow weak or bad to get good sleep.

I used to have bad insomnia, and generally had sleep issues. I'd stay up late, "get by" with 6 hours, and make it up on the weekend by sleeping until 10-11am.

I've posted this in other health/etc threads, but my health (both physical and mental) improved when I started making sleep a priority. I started waking up / going to bed at the same time every night (weekends included). I work at home, so midnight is my "bedtime", and I wake naturally around 7 - 7:30. It's great, and I have zero insomnia anymore. 
Glad to hear things are better for you - I wanted to bold that one part to highlight that he says the idea of making up sleep is a myth.  You can’t according to Walker.

And not saying you believe it but just pointing it out since you used that phrase.

 
I worked night shift for 11 years and it wreaked havoc on my sleep. Not just the timing, but amount and fragmentation of sleep periods. I had a couple night night terrors when I woke up screaming, which eventually led me to change my work hours. It’s taken a few years to get back into a more normal sleep schedule. For me, exercising until exhaustion before it gets too late really helps.

I’d like to hear the data on the bolded. I’ll have to check out the podcast.

And melatonin ain’t placebo, especially for jet lag.
Couple of points here:

- he said that some governing body went so far as to classify 3rd shift work as I think a carcinogen (will see if I can find the study he quotes).  Basically saying it f’s with your sleep and gives you a greater risk of cancer

- he does specifically say that melatonin works for jet lag but he says that for the vast majority of people (that stay in the same time zone) it only has a placebo effect.  He does mention there are cases where people do actually respond to it but it was a very low percent.  However, due to being a natural supplement he says keep taking it if it works - I started taking it nightly and it works for me

- he was freaking Rogan out with his comments and it is scary stuff.  Granted, this is one of those things where the effects could be somewhat exaggerated, especially in the averages.  My guess is if you are truly an insomniac and/or getting less than 6 hours consistently then you really are at risk.  I was blown away when he said that essentially 0% of people aren’t impacted by less than 7 hours.

 
Quick Google search resulted in this

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2954516/

Background

In 2007, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) classified shift work with circadian disruption or chronodisruption as a probable human carcinogen. Short-term disturbances of biological 24-hour-rhythms following exposures to light and darkness at unusual times are well-known as „jet-lag“ and „shift-lag“ symptoms. However, that chronic disturbances or disruptions of timely sequenced circadian rhythms (chronodisruption) should contribute to long-term developments of cancer is a relatively new concept. This review provides background and practical information with regard to the open question „does shift-work cause cancer?“

Methods

Overview on the basis of a selective literature search via Medline and ISI Web of Knowledge until 2009 from the viewpoints of occupational medicine, epidemiology, chronobiology, and occupational science.

Results

The postulated causal links between shift-work and cancer in humans are biologically plausible in the light of experimental findings, but to date we lack epidemiological studies which could describe or exonerate risks in humans. Monetary compensation has already been paid for such cases in at least one country (Denmark). In Germany, however, according to the applicable law, a new occupational disease can only be recognized when certain conditions for the recognition of „general scientific merit“ have been met. We present the current state of knowledge regarding prevention.
 
Also low dose melatonin is great.  1-2mg is plenty.  
Any concerns with higher doses that you are aware of?  I started taking a 5mg tablet and didn't notice much.  As I increased the dosage it seemed to work better.  I'm going to try and implement some of his other suggestions and lower my dosage (maybe even stop taking it for a while).  I've seen no side effects when I take it.  My wife says it causes her restless leg type issues when she takes it.

 
I think everything you said is probably true, but I'd like to know the data supporting it being the best thing one can do for health. Like mortality vs. average hours of nightly sleep, controlled for confounders like obesity and smoking. As far as I know, the latter two are the most important modifiable risk factors for disease.
Most of my comments and quotes are going from memory from listening but I know he said something like this.  It's possible he said "one of" and I'm overstating or he may have said something about cheapest/easiest - honestly I'm now questioning my memory of it.  But, suffice it to say he thinks it's ONE OF the best things you can do and is vital to health and improves health in almost all cases.  The repair/recycle work that the body does during quality sleep can't be replicated.  But, as I do most of the time around here, I caution folks not to listen to me but go to the source and educate yourselves.  I can confidently say - get your sleep to improve your health and quality of life.

 
Having access to my wife's glucose monitor data has given me some insights here.  Your body turns over a lot of liver functions roughly starting 4hrs into sleep.  Sometimes up to 6.  If sleep is disturbed in that time it just says #### it. Maybe tomorrow.  

In that situation your body is in catch up mode all day with glycogen and other factors and is much more insulin resistant.  So it's not shocking to see sleep and type 2 correlation.  Among other factors. 
This is the most likely cause of my Type 2 diabetes. I was always in good shape other than my sleep issues. It makes a lot more sense to me now.

I have an appointment with Sleep Docs in the next month. I really hope to finally make some progress on this.

At 50, I've prolly accumulated irreversible issues, but the future is still important and open for better things.

Good thread - thnx for all the info, all.

 
And if you can't sleep, look at the why's. For me, one of the triggers for bad sleep is booze, which leads to peeing at night, which leads to broken up sleep. The simple fact is I had to monitor my drinking to get a good night's sleep. 

2 beers or less - I don't have to pee overnight. More than that, and I'm up to pee. So I try not to drink most nights anymore. Helps me on two fronts - sleep and less alcohol consumption.

 
AAABatteries said:
Any concerns with higher doses that you are aware of?  I started taking a 5mg tablet and didn't notice much.  As I increased the dosage it seemed to work better.  I'm going to try and implement some of his other suggestions and lower my dosage (maybe even stop taking it for a while).  I've seen no side effects when I take it.  My wife says it causes her restless leg type issues when she takes it.
melatonin downregulates dopamine (to an extent).  This can have downstream effects of lessening the impact of events like eating sugar and carbs, leading to over-indulgence to get the required dopamine hit to cease the negative activity.  Sleep studies have shown 1-3mg are plenty to get effects.  It's also not suggested to use it to counter the effects of alcohol, for similar reasons.

 
ChiefD said:
And if you can't sleep, look at the why's. For me, one of the triggers for bad sleep is booze, which leads to peeing at night, which leads to broken up sleep. The simple fact is I had to monitor my drinking to get a good night's sleep. 

2 beers or less - I don't have to pee overnight. More than that, and I'm up to pee. So I try not to drink most nights anymore. Helps me on two fronts - sleep and less alcohol consumption.
Whiskey should solve that problem. Much less liquid and calories. Win-win.

 
AAABatteries said:
Any concerns with higher doses that you are aware of?  I started taking a 5mg tablet and didn't notice much.  As I increased the dosage it seemed to work better.  I'm going to try and implement some of his other suggestions and lower my dosage (maybe even stop taking it for a while).  I've seen no side effects when I take it.  My wife says it causes her restless leg type issues when she takes it.
3mg is the usual recommended dose. I am unaware of any documented harm from it. Theoretically, prions could be transmitted from the "all natural" form derived from pineal (brain) tissue, but most available nowadays is recombinant stuff created in a lab.

The trick with sleep aids is getting restorative sleep, not just zonking one out. Most over-the-counter stuff contains antihistamines, which aren't useful for deep (stage 3 and 4 IIRC) and REM sleep. Nor is alcohol.

 
You are right. I am now aware that it cannot be made up - but at that time, I wasn't.

 
My daughter is three and just had her tonsils and adenoids removed this morning. She’s been getting 11 hours of sleep every night but she snorts and snores and wakes herself up a lot. Just now she took a nap (for two hours) and the difference is stark. Quiet, not moving a lot. I’m hoping this will be the best sleep she’s had in a long while and that it helps in lots of ways, like chilling out her sometimes crazy behavior. And inspiring her to listen to me. 

 

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