Gaining my independence (1 Viewer)

[Van Dyman]

Hillary will be in full make out session with the Gop in January. The 2 parties will effectively merge. We are about to see a big realignment.

Then we'll need a party on the left of that monstrosity.  Actually, we need that anyway.

 

[Bojang0301]

Then we'll need a party on the left of that monstrosity.  Actually, we need that anyway.

I think the combined efforts of the the so called "left" and "right" (and I'll give you a hint here for when you finally have your epiphany: the spectrum is 360 degrees and not a straight line) have lead to enough rights being stripped away in this country. I suppose if we want to talk about dems specifically, I love their fine work of Biden helping to cowrite the patriot act, the continued and expanded use of drone warfare, the continued and expanded effort to move arms into Syria essentially arming ISIL themselves, the continued and expanded use of the NSA, the introduction of government interference to further mess up the medical structure while further increasing the scam the practice of having insurance introduced and forced on people into a market has and the resurrection of socialism whose beliefs are to strip the middle class of any income they can still cling to after federal, state, city, sales, Medicare, Medicaid, social security and whatever fines, fees and sin tax you want tacked on to so called "progressive" policies.

P.S. I'm not a republican.

 

[bueno]

I could write the same thing for the GOP. They only stand for their reelection and nothing else. 

Agreed

 

[bueno]

How about you get involved in making a change instead? Looking for ways to get it done here. Sitting on the sidelines isn't really an option anymore. We are losing our democracy.

When did we ever have a real democracy NC?

 

[tommyGunZ]

You're better than this NCC.  

Take some time, cool off, and reassess. You're always welcome in our big tent buddy.  

 

[Daywalker]

A self-proclaimed democratic socialist nearly won the primary.  Get a gripe.

 

[NCCommish]

The Third Way has been around a lot longer than the Clintons. See 2 Labour governments in the UK well before the Clintons and most influentially the Hawke/Keating governments of Australia in the 80s.

So in summary, youve been a democrat for 34 years. Bill Clinton became president in 92 and all democrats since federally have been third way. Its taken you 24 years to come around? Some would call that a little slow.

Since we are talking American politics maybe e should stick to that. And I have been complaining about third way for a long time. Maybe I am slow but I have been moving this way for a long time. I was raised a Democrat in a multi generational Democratic family. It can take a while. You want it to be what it was but it keeps getting worse. Better late then never I guess .

 

[NCCommish]

A self-proclaimed democratic socialist nearly won the primary.  Get a gripe.

Which was in spite.of the party and in the face of every obstacle, lie and bit of gray area bull#### it could pull. 

 

[Ash]

... They only stand for their reelection and nothing else. 

I live in a different country, but isn't this the one point that's universal across politics and politicians everywhere?

 

[cstu]

What's sad is that we had the real deal Bernie right there in front of us and the timschochets of the world chose the bought off panderer.  The majority of people can't even see when they're being swindled. It's very sad.

I am a liberal I am no longer a Democrat. There was a time when my conscience would allow me to be both. Those days are long gone.

Obama won two elections in a row and a 5% swing in the Democratic primary is all it would have taken for Bernie to win. 

 

[The Commish]

They have no interest in "sitting down and chatting" NCC.  As a result, they'll end up in a similar situation to the GOP before it's over.  Now, if they choose to come to their sense, perhaps they can avoid the inevitable, but I don't see it happening.  Welcome to the cheap seats.  There are some amazing views out here.

 

[timschochet]

They have no interest in "sitting down and chatting" NCC.  As a result, they'll end up in a similar situation to the GOP before it's over.  Now, if they choose to come to their sense, perhaps they can avoid the inevitable, but I don't see it happening.  Welcome to the cheap seats.  There are some amazing views out here.

I don't think it's inevitable at all. In fact I think you're wrong. These periods of extremism never last. Americans will come to their senses soon enough and in the meantime we'll muddle through. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I don't think it's inevitable at all. In fact I think you're wrong. These periods of extremism never last. Americans will come to their senses soon enough and in the meantime we'll muddle through. 

Maybe if the problem of intractable corporatism wasn't so in our face and so impossible to stop people would not be resorting to such things. Reform is needed.

 

[fruity pebbles]

No Tim they have. I have been a member of this party for 34 years. Don't try to tell me they haven't changed. And I think you should maybe try talking to some Palestinians.

The democratic party as positioned is the center right party. That is the whole point of third way. There are liberals in the party but the party is not liberal.  Their candidate can't even say the word.

Wasting your breath. Tim's banging the skank you just dumped. He thinks she's dreamy.

 

[timschochet]

Wasting your breath. Tim's banging the skank you just dumped. He thinks she's dreamy.

Did you have to put it in such terms? 

 

[cubd8]

Dear DNC,

Let's sit down and chat.

It's been a 34 year relationship. We've had some good times. I was young when we first got together. 18. And you were not young but you were much different than you are now. You have changed dramatically. You have become a shell of the party I wanted to belong to. You no longer feel as I do about too many issues. You support fracking. I don't. You support the continued occupation of Palestine. I don't. You don't support the middle class. I do. You support your big donors and no longer care about the people I care about. Oh you give lip service but one only has to look at the latest draft platform to see how far we have drifted apart. And that is really just scratching the surface.

I wish I could say it's me but it's not it's you. You sold out and became GOP lite. Sure you aren't as racist and you kind of support a woman's right to choose but when you have had majorities that could have made it happen did you make that law? No you sat on your hands and now the right to choose is in serious trouble all over this country. Because someone might lose a seat and really that's all you care about anymore. You no longer have grand ideas and proposals. You are small ball and mired in legalized bribery to the nth degree.

Now the GOP sucks. And I won't be hooking up with them just so you know but still you suck to and not in the good way. Will I still support some Democrats for office? Yeah I have a group of them I am supporting now. Will I support the party or it's current nominee? Not a snowballs chance in hell.

It's been a long marriage but the kids are grown and it's time to admit the bloom is well off the rose. For the first time in my adult life I will be a registered independent. And the only person you have to blame is you. If that hurts maybe a little soul searching is in order but I don't expect it and I won't trust any change that doesn't come with action. You keep saying you're sorry and then you abuse my vote again. That's over.

I hope you enjoy all your new conservative loves. I just don't trust or respect you anymore and when that happens it's time to move on.

So on this day when we celebrate telling the establishment to go screw itself I declare my independence

Yours,

NCC

So you're saying that if the Democrats would have chosen Bernie Sanders, there could still be a voice for you?

What does independent even mean if you only vote for Democrats still? Are there any Republicans that you currently like?

 

[The Commish]

I don't think it's inevitable at all. In fact I think you're wrong. These periods of extremism never last. Americans will come to their senses soon enough and in the meantime we'll muddle through. 

This is what the Republicans began mumbling at the beginning of Clinton's reign   The party kept ignoring it's members and here they are.  BUT, I also remind myself I am bantering back and forth with someone who doesn't think the Democratic party has changed AND someone who is fearful that Trump will become dictator of the United States so......

 

[Apple Jack]

Until there is traction in polling and genuine momentum going into election day any vote for a third candidate is a vote for the person on the ballot you'd least like to see win. Election day is not where you build momentum, it is where you close and you don't close until the foundation is built.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Until there is traction in polling and genuine momentum going into election day any vote for a third candidate is a vote for the person on the ballot you'd least like to see win. Election day is not where you build momentum, it is where you close and you don't close until the foundation is built.

Yeah, I think Instant runoff voting is the only way to solve this problem.  Make it happen, NCCommish.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Until there is traction in polling and genuine momentum going into election day any vote for a third candidate is a vote for the person on the ballot you'd least like to see win. Election day is not where you build momentum, it is where you close and you don't close until the foundation is built.

I don't agree with that, vote your conscience. You can think more than one candidate should not be president.

 

[Apple Jack]

I don't agree with that, vote your conscience. You can think more than one candidate should not be president.

Yes, I understand that. Many often feel they are voting for the lesser of two evils. And voting your conscience is great, as long as you realize that unless you feel they are exactly equally dangerous that your abstinence is a vote for the worse of the two.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Voting for the lesser of two evils is voting for the status quo which brought you those two evils.  Ands here's the kicker, the next election they are going to do it again, with a little more evil thrown in each time.

 

[NCCommish]

So you're saying that if the Democrats would have chosen Bernie Sanders, there could still be a voice for you?

What does independent even mean if you only vote for Democrats still? Are there any Republicans that you currently like?

The only Republicans I like have no chance in the current iteration of the GOP. Now I have some major policy differences with them but they seem like compromise isn't a dirty word. For instance Huntsman and Johnson intrigue me on the national level. And I have voted for Republicans locally. Same applies to the Democrats. I have a handful I am supporting but too many are to deep in the money and to beholden to support on most issues.

And yes if Bernie had been the nominee I'd likely feel different. I would feel like the party was moving toward me not away. But that wasn't the case and the more we learn about how screwed up this primary really was the more justified I feel in my choice to leave. Becauseuch of it seemed to be on purpose to support one person with whom I have serious disagreement and who I feel epitomizes everything wrong with this system. Sigh.

 

[NCCommish]

Yeah, I think Instant runoff voting is the only way to solve this problem.  Make it happen, NCCommish.

I'll get right on it.

 

[AAABatteries]

Wasting your breath. Tim's banging the skank you just dumped. He thinks she's dreamy.

 

 

[AAABatteries]

I said this a few times in the Bernie thread but greed is killing us - I think a lot of our problems come down to this.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

The majority of people can't even see when they're being swindled. It's very sad.

True, but we're starting to see an awakening in both America and in Europe, and the Sanders movement was part of that.

This guy was ahead of the curve in seeing and preaching about the swindle.

 

[AnonymousBob]

You're better than this NCC.  

He is absolutely better than this. It's why he left. 

 

[bueno]

I don't think it's inevitable at all. In fact I think you're wrong. These periods of extremism never last. Americans will come to their senses soon enough and in the meantime we'll muddle through. 

I'm seeing evolution here rather than cyclic changes.  The political elite pass laws that apply to us, but not to them. They are bought off by the financial elite. Future historians may look at this election as the beginning of the end of liberal democracy.

 

[AnonymousBob]

I'm pro Hillary because she's the closest thing we have to a centrist and a moderate. But that doesn't make me a Democrat- yet. My closest affinity is to chamber of commerce Republicanism. But that seems to be dying out. If the GOP becomes a nationalist party, I'll switch over to the Dems for good. 

I think this entire movement by Republicans has been an elaborate ruse to rid themselves of Tim's support. 

 

[pandora]

LOL @ people thinking Sanders would have been a solid choice.

 

[Willie Neslon]

This guy was ahead of the curve in seeing and preaching about the swindle.

Nails it.

 

[Politician Spock]

Oh good god!!!

I started reading this thread thinking it was a thread about NCCommish.... only to find it became a thread about Tim really quick. UGH!!!!

 

[bueno]

I think this entire movement by Republicans has been an elaborate ruse to rid themselves of Tim's support. 

If so, they shot themselves in the foot big time.

 

[cstu]

Voting for the lesser of two evils is voting for the status quo which brought you those two evils.  Ands here's the kicker, the next election they are going to do it again, with a little more evil thrown in each time.

You seem to forget that the status quo can be changed - just 8 years ago some guy came out of nowhere to defeat Hillary as the overwhelming favorite.  Handing the Presidency over to a Party that you fundamentally disagree with simply because a candidate you don't like won the primary is short-sighted and irresponsible.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

You seem to forget that the status quo can be changed - just 8 years ago some guy came out of nowhere to defeat Hillary as the overwhelming favorite.  Handing the Presidency over to a Party that you fundamentally disagree with simply because a candidate you don't like won the primary is short-sighted and irresponsible.

And if I have never agreed with either party on all things, and then they exacerbate matters by not practicing what they preach so consistently that only a fool would believe their promises on the apparent limited areas of agreement I have with them, then what?

I did not forget the election of 8 years ago.  that the status quo threw up an unfamiliar name does not mean that it did not operate within the parameters of its own interest yet again.  Or so I see it.

Comes a time when even the dumbest dog catches on to the fact that you are faking the throw with the stick.  I'm just watching how long that process takes.

 

[AnonymousBob]

LOL @ people thinking Sanders would have been a solid choice.

He would not have been a solid choice.

He would have been a GREAT choice. 

 

[cstu]

And if I have never agreed with either party on all things, and then they exacerbate matters by not practicing what they preach so consistently that only a fool would believe their promises on the apparent limited areas of agreement I have with them, then what?

I did not forget the election of 8 years ago.  that the status quo threw up an unfamiliar name does not mean that it did not operate within the parameters of its own interest yet again.  Or so I see it.

Comes a time when even the dumbest dog catches on to the fact that you are faking the throw with the stick.  I'm just watching how long that process takes.

Then no one is going to make any real change - even Bernie - because the person is stuck between the interests of powerfully wealthy and obstructionist Republicans.  Might as well throw our hands up and let the elites run things with your (and others') attitudes.

 

[NCCommish]

I'm seeing evolution here rather than cyclic changes.  The political elite pass laws that apply to us, but not to them. They are bought off by the financial elite. Future historians may look at this election as the beginning of the end of liberal democracy.

Or as the beginning of an awakening. It's up to us which it is.

 

[NCCommish]

You seem to forget that the status quo can be changed - just 8 years ago some guy came out of nowhere to defeat Hillary as the overwhelming favorite.  Handing the Presidency over to a Party that you fundamentally disagree with simply because a candidate you don't like won the primary is short-sighted and irresponsible.

I fundamentally disagree with both presumptive candidates. I also fundamentally disagree with our current President on issues of serious moral import starting with our drone policy and killing US citizens with no due process, not even the fig leaf of a trial in absentia. Now what?

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Then no one is going to make any real change - even Bernie - because the person is stuck between the interests of powerfully wealthy and obstructionist Republicans.  Might as well throw our hands up and let the elites run things with your (and others') attitudes.

Or we the people could change the rules by voting for our actual beliefs instead of falling prey to the false arguments about third parties having no chance and throwing away our votes.  Seems to me the defeatist are the ones without the fortitude to do what's right, settling for expedience, hoping not to retain hope or act on it, but asking only that they be allowed another few moments to hang onto the illusion of hope they themselves no longer really believe.  

 

[Jayrod]

I can't really blame anyone for whatever they choose during the general election this November.

However, I'm insanely pissed at the primary voters.  We put this two ###-clowns up for the election of President of the United States.  I would have voted for literally anyone else who was on the ticket.  F-ing anyone.  Now I'm voting for Gary Johnson, who I probably should have been voting for all along, but as long as there was a glimmer of hope I was wanting to see Sanders or Kasich or even freaking Cruz.  But now? FU DNC & RNC.

 

[The Commish]

Yes, I understand that. Many often feel they are voting for the lesser of two evils. And voting your conscience is great, as long as you realize that unless you feel they are exactly equally dangerous that your abstinence is a vote for the worse of the two.

Yeah, this is crap.  There's a minimum bar we set as voters.  If they don't meet that bar, they don't meet that bar.  They don't have to be exactly equal in their ineptitude of meeting that bar.  There are plenty of ways to miss the mark.  This should be obvious by now, but people keep wanting to try to tell other people what their vote "means".

ETA:  TL'DR  -->  If you insist on comparison politics, compare the politicians to a standard you set, not to each other.  Doing the latter gets you a "choice" between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump  

 

[AnonymousBob]

I can't really blame anyone for whatever they choose during the general election this November.

I can understand a lot of things. I can't truly understand anyone voting Trump unless they're truly going for a want to watch the world burn thing. And I say this as a third party voter this election, which to some is no different than actually voting for Trump. 

 

[Politician Spock]

A leader that will do what is best for the country will never get nominated by two parties that were created by the rich for the rich, and nominate leaders that do what is best for the party. 

The best thing a voter can do for this country is reject both parties. 

 

[NCCommish]

I can understand a lot of things. I can't truly understand anyone voting Trump unless they're truly going for a want to watch the world burn thing. And I say this as a third party voter this election, which to some is no different than actually voting for Trump. 

We need people to run as Independents. We need the 40%+ of voters who identify as Independent to fund and vote for them if they deserve it. That's how change will happen.

 

[cstu]

A leader that will do what is best for the country will never get nominated by two parties that were created by the rich for the rich, and nominate leaders that do what is best for the party. 

The best thing a voter can do for this country is reject both parties. 

The rich didn't vote 15 million times for Clinton and 13 million times for Trump. 

 

[Politician Spock]

The rich didn't vote 15 million times for Clinton and 13 million times for Trump. 

Where did I say they did?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I fundamentally disagree with both presumptive candidates. I also fundamentally disagree with our current President on issues of serious moral import starting with our drone policy and killing US citizens with no due process, not even the fig leaf of a trial in absentia. Now what?

You and I obviously have very different worldviews, but I respect the fact that you're willing to break with partisan loyalty and criticize "your guy" over stuff like this.  It's not like you're alone, of course, but I find it maddening when people look the other way one these and similar issues when their party happens to be in charge.  

 

[cstu]

Where did I say they did?

By implying that the rich control the outcome of the primaries.  It's still the people who vote for these losers.