Game Recognizes Game...i.e., If U Got It, U Can See It (1 Viewer)

[kremenull]

ALAMEDA — The comparisons flowed forth soon after the Raiders selected running back Darren McFadden with the fourth pick of the 2008 NFL draft.

It wasn't enough that McFadden was widely regarded as the most talented player in the draft. People clamored for an apt comparison. What can we expect?

Some invoked Minnesota Vikings running back Adrian Peterson. Others threw out Marcus Allen. Time will tell, of course. Yet, few argue that McFadden is the most explosive Raiders back since Napoleon Kaufman roamed the NFL landscape from 1995-2000.

Thursday, the final day of the Raiders' three-day minicamp, Kaufman spent his day off from his full-time job as the senior pastor at The Well in Dublin checking out McFadden in person for the first time.

"I, obviously, appreciate his speed and his elusiveness, his versatility," Kaufman said. "He seems to be an athlete that not only is going to contribute in the running game but also in the passing game. So, there's great potential with this young man. I'm excited to watch him this year."

Kaufman averaged a robust 4.9 yards per carry in his NFL career. From 1996-2000, he broke at least one run of 60 yards or more each year, including a career-best 83-yarder in 1997.

Kaufman's career peaked in 1997, when he posted career-highs in carries (272), yards (1,294) and touchdowns (six). Even so, he remained a legitimate threat to break a long run each time he touched the ball until

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the day he retired.

Being that kind of player is a double-edged sword, Kaufman said.

"It's exciting," Kaufman said. "It does create a lot of pressure because people begin to expect that that's what's going to happen. But I, obviously, welcome it, also. Guys like McFadden and others want people to feel, 'When I get my hands on the ball, I can take it to the house.'"

Soon after practice, Kaufman introduced himself to McFadden. You get the feeling it won't be the last time they are linked together.

Link

http://www.contracostatimes.com/sports/ci_...?nclick_check=1

 

[EBF]

 

[kremenull]

So tell me....How does a guy from the East Bay grow up to despise the Raiders anyway? BTW, you'll be one of the first ones I come looking for in here when D-Mac explodes onto the NFL scene......Misjudging a talent like McFadden will be an egregious mistake for you guys. When he reaches superstardom, what can you say? I made a boo-boo, I guess.Get your ready

 

[EBF]

I know people are going to bump a lot of my posts the moment he breaks his first 20+ yard TD. What I hope these people realize is that I don't necessarily think DMC is devoid of talent, I just don't think he's all he's cracked up to be. He's going to make some big plays, but he doesn't really fit the mold of a workhorse back. I see him more as a suped-up Michael Bennett than the second coming of Tomlinson or Peterson. That's all I've really been saying all along. So you can bump my posts when he breaks a long run here and there, but I won't eat any crow unless he truly becomes a top tier every down back.

I don't hate the Raiders. I'm indifferent towards them. Lately they've been making major commitments to a lot of risky players, so I've been critical of them. Javon Walker, JaMarcus Russell, and Darren McFadden are huge gambles that they didn't have to take. They could've had Calvin Johnson, Matt Schaub, and Glenn Dorsey instead.

 

[menobrown]

he doesn't really fit the mold of a workhorse back. I see him more as a suped-up Michael Bennett than the second coming of Tomlinson or Peterson.

You are not the first person to make this claim but honestly what do you base this on? Why do you ignore the fact he was a workhorse back in the best conference in America? Is it because Felix Jones got 10 carries a game?Do you think Jonathan Stewart is a workhorse back? He averaged 21.5 carries a game last year.

Do you think Mendenhall is a workhorse back? He averaged 20.15 carries per game last year.

Mcfadden, who you say is not a workhorse back, averaged 25 carries a game last year. Did he do this against inferior competition? No, he did it against the best defenses in American and in fact in SEC games he averaged over 27 carries a game. And this was with no threat of a passing game and the defenses knowing exactly what was coming in a conference in which the size and speed on the defensive side is more similar to what Mcfadden will see in the NFL than any other conference in America.

I see absolutely nothing in Mcfaddens past to suggest he can be anything but an everydown workhorse back.

 

[EBF]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season.

So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

 

[Chase Stuart]

he doesn't really fit the mold of a workhorse back. I see him more as a suped-up Michael Bennett than the second coming of Tomlinson or Peterson.

You are not the first person to make this claim but honestly what do you base this on? Why do you ignore the fact he was a workhorse back in the best conference in America? Is it because Felix Jones got 10 carries a game?Do you think Jonathan Stewart is a workhorse back? He averaged 21.5 carries a game last year.

Do you think Mendenhall is a workhorse back? He averaged 20.15 carries per game last year.

Mcfadden, who you say is not a workhorse back, averaged 25 carries a game last year. Did he do this against inferior competition? No, he did it against the best defenses in American and in fact in SEC games he averaged over 27 carries a game. And this was with no threat of a passing game and the defenses knowing exactly what was coming in a conference in which the size and speed on the defensive side is more similar to what Mcfadden will see in the NFL than any other conference in America.

I see absolutely nothing in Mcfaddens past to suggest he can be anything but an everydown workhorse back.

SEC fan?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season. So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

For my money, McFadden's the biggest mystery of any RB drafted in the last five years that the book's still out on. He could be the 2nd coming of Reggie Bush - a glorified role player whose playing time is protected for a few years by his high draft status. Or he could be Warrick Dunn, a back talented enough to overcome what look on paper to be serious deficiencies. He could also put on 6-8 pounds and make this discussion moot.I think the point is that when you spend the #4 pick in the draft on a guy you should be looking for a slam dunk, can't-miss prospect. And IMO Stewart and Mendenhall were the safer plays.

 

[menobrown]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season. So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

So you are basing this on his BMI and throwing out the fact he was workhorse back in the SEC. Seems like a pretty weak stretch. I guess Dickerson BMI would not have rated to highly either and he is the RB I think Mcfadden is most similar to in both size and running style.

 

[EBF]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season. So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

So you are basing this on his BMI and throwing out the fact he was workhorse back in the SEC. Seems like a pretty weak stretch. I guess Dickerson BMI would not have rated to highly either and he is the RB I think Mcfadden is most similar to in both size and running style.

There has been a paradigm shift since Dickerson's era towards shorter, more compact backs. Guys like Tomlinson, Emmitt, Faulk, and Sanders have dominated the league over the past 15 years. Meanwhile there have been few great tall backs and none with a build as slight as McFadden's. It's great that he dominated in college, but it doesn't guarantee anything at the next level. Even in the SEC, a good percentage of the guys starting will be marginal NFL players at best.

 

[menobrown]

he doesn't really fit the mold of a workhorse back. I see him more as a suped-up Michael Bennett than the second coming of Tomlinson or Peterson.

You are not the first person to make this claim but honestly what do you base this on? Why do you ignore the fact he was a workhorse back in the best conference in America? Is it because Felix Jones got 10 carries a game?Do you think Jonathan Stewart is a workhorse back? He averaged 21.5 carries a game last year.

Do you think Mendenhall is a workhorse back? He averaged 20.15 carries per game last year.

Mcfadden, who you say is not a workhorse back, averaged 25 carries a game last year. Did he do this against inferior competition? No, he did it against the best defenses in American and in fact in SEC games he averaged over 27 carries a game. And this was with no threat of a passing game and the defenses knowing exactly what was coming in a conference in which the size and speed on the defensive side is more similar to what Mcfadden will see in the NFL than any other conference in America.

I see absolutely nothing in Mcfaddens past to suggest he can be anything but an everydown workhorse back.

SEC fan?

I did go to Arkansas but I'm not real big on the conference debate and unlike most Arkansas fans I don't root for other SEC teams to bolster the argument about which conference is better because I really don't care but in football I don't think any other conferences touches the SEC and on the defensive side the gap between the SEC and other conferences only widens. I'm really not a blind homer and in fact debate with most of my friends that the SEC is overrated in some sports like basketball but in football,and especially on the defensive side, I just don't think there is any comparison.

 

[ThePittbully]

he doesn't really fit the mold of a workhorse back. I see him more as a suped-up Michael Bennett than the second coming of Tomlinson or Peterson.

You are not the first person to make this claim but honestly what do you base this on? Why do you ignore the fact he was a workhorse back in the best conference in America? Is it because Felix Jones got 10 carries a game?Do you think Jonathan Stewart is a workhorse back? He averaged 21.5 carries a game last year.

Do you think Mendenhall is a workhorse back? He averaged 20.15 carries per game last year.

Mcfadden, who you say is not a workhorse back, averaged 25 carries a game last year. Did he do this against inferior competition? No, he did it against the best defenses in American and in fact in SEC games he averaged over 27 carries a game. And this was with no threat of a passing game and the defenses knowing exactly what was coming in a conference in which the size and speed on the defensive side is more similar to what Mcfadden will see in the NFL than any other conference in America.

I see absolutely nothing in Mcfaddens past to suggest he can be anything but an everydown workhorse back.

SEC fan?

Just a fan of the truth

 

[menobrown]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season. So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

So you are basing this on his BMI and throwing out the fact he was workhorse back in the SEC. Seems like a pretty weak stretch. I guess Dickerson BMI would not have rated to highly either and he is the RB I think Mcfadden is most similar to in both size and running style.

There has been a paradigm shift since Dickerson's era towards shorter, more compact backs. Guys like Tomlinson, Emmitt, Faulk, and Sanders have dominated the league over the past 15 years. Meanwhile there have been few great tall backs and none with a build as slight as McFadden's. It's great that he dominated in college, but it doesn't guarantee anything at the next level. Even in the SEC, a good percentage of the guys starting will be marginal NFL players at best.

There has not been a paradigm shift there has just not been an abundance of talented tall runners. Can you name me another tall runner with Mcfaddens build and speed who failed on the NFL level? Surely you are not trying to say there has been some kind of shift were a player like Eric Dickerson would not be as valued or as good today? There is not a lot of difference between 6-2/210 and 6-3/220 and you seem to be ruling out the fact that Mcfadden has room to gain a few extra pounds.There is no such thing as a guarantee that collegiate success translates to NFL success. But what you can not debate is that on the collegiate level, against the best competition possible, Mcfadden was every bit of the workhorse back you say he can't be in the NFL and you are basing this entirely on his BMI.

 

[EBF]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season. So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

So you are basing this on his BMI and throwing out the fact he was workhorse back in the SEC. Seems like a pretty weak stretch. I guess Dickerson BMI would not have rated to highly either and he is the RB I think Mcfadden is most similar to in both size and running style.

There has been a paradigm shift since Dickerson's era towards shorter, more compact backs. Guys like Tomlinson, Emmitt, Faulk, and Sanders have dominated the league over the past 15 years. Meanwhile there have been few great tall backs and none with a build as slight as McFadden's. It's great that he dominated in college, but it doesn't guarantee anything at the next level. Even in the SEC, a good percentage of the guys starting will be marginal NFL players at best.

There has not been a paradigm shift there has just not been an abundance of talented tall runners. Can you name me another tall runner with Mcfaddens build and speed who failed on the NFL level? Surely you are not trying to say there has been some kind of shift were a player like Eric Dickerson would not be as valued or as good today? There is not a lot of difference between 6-2/210 and 6-3/220 and you seem to be ruling out the fact that Mcfadden has room to gain a few extra pounds.There is no such thing as a guarantee that collegiate success translates to NFL success. But what you can not debate is that on the collegiate level, against the best competition possible, Mcfadden was every bit of the workhorse back you say he can't be in the NFL and you are basing this entirely on his BMI.

There are plenty of good tall athletes. The reason you don't see them at RB is because their body type does not fit the unique demands of the position. Most of the elite running backs in the NFL have exceptional leg drive, which I think is one of the glaring flaws in McFadden's game. He's willing to lower his shoulder and initiate contact, yet he doesn't have the strong base needed to break tackles. His low BMI and borderline vertical leap merely confirm the lack of lower body power.Eric Dickerson is not McFadden just like Peterson is not McFadden. Similar size on paper. Very different players.

 

[cstu]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season. So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

So you are basing this on his BMI and throwing out the fact he was workhorse back in the SEC. Seems like a pretty weak stretch. I guess Dickerson BMI would not have rated to highly either and he is the RB I think Mcfadden is most similar to in both size and running style.

There has been a paradigm shift since Dickerson's era towards shorter, more compact backs. Guys like Tomlinson, Emmitt, Faulk, and Sanders have dominated the league over the past 15 years. Meanwhile there have been few great tall backs and none with a build as slight as McFadden's. It's great that he dominated in college, but it doesn't guarantee anything at the next level. Even in the SEC, a good percentage of the guys starting will be marginal NFL players at best.

Are you saying Dickerson wouldn't have succeeded in today's NFL? I trust your judgement but AP doesn't fit your model either and McFadden is 6lbs less and 2 years younger. He just has to add 3lb's of muscle a year and he's built almost exactly like AP (he's actually a little shorter at 6-1 1/4 vs AP at 6-1 1/2).

 

[Chase Stuart]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season. So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

So you are basing this on his BMI and throwing out the fact he was workhorse back in the SEC. Seems like a pretty weak stretch. I guess Dickerson BMI would not have rated to highly either and he is the RB I think Mcfadden is most similar to in both size and running style.

There has been a paradigm shift since Dickerson's era towards shorter, more compact backs. Guys like Tomlinson, Emmitt, Faulk, and Sanders have dominated the league over the past 15 years. Meanwhile there have been few great tall backs and none with a build as slight as McFadden's. It's great that he dominated in college, but it doesn't guarantee anything at the next level. Even in the SEC, a good percentage of the guys starting will be marginal NFL players at best.

There has not been a paradigm shift there has just not been an abundance of talented tall runners. Can you name me another tall runner with Mcfaddens build and speed who failed on the NFL level? Surely you are not trying to say there has been some kind of shift were a player like Eric Dickerson would not be as valued or as good today? There is not a lot of difference between 6-2/210 and 6-3/220 and you seem to be ruling out the fact that Mcfadden has room to gain a few extra pounds.There is no such thing as a guarantee that collegiate success translates to NFL success. But what you can not debate is that on the collegiate level, against the best competition possible, Mcfadden was every bit of the workhorse back you say he can't be in the NFL and you are basing this entirely on his BMI.

Reports have been all over w/r/t McFadden's height and weight. Let's use 6-2, 210, which is a BMI of 27. There have been 10 first round RBs drafted since 1987 with a BMI of 27.5 or lower.Dexter Carter, Warrick Dunn, Eric Metcalf, Gaston Green, D.J. Dozier, Terrence Flagler, Reggie Bush, Paul Palmer, Robert Smith, and Napolean Kauffman. Not a great list of comparables, but some decent guys in there, too.If you want to look just at tall and thin guys, you have to move out of the first round. Since '87, only five RBs before McFadden were drafted in the first four rounds that were 6'1 or taller, with a BMI under 27.5. Robert Drummond, Moe Williams, Robert Smith, Ciatrick Fason (Minnesota doesn't have scales, apparently) and Chris Brown (Ten) were the only ones.As for SEC RBs, they've had a very nice run lately. Ironically enough, they've all been bigger backs. Since Garrison Hearst in '93, 10 of the 11 RBs drafted out of the SEC in the first round have all had at least one very nice year. But 10 of the 11 RBs had BMIs over 29, too. And the one RB with a BMI under 29, had a BMI of 27.8, so he was a lot thinner than the others. And he busted, big time.

 

[menobrown]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season. So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

So you are basing this on his BMI and throwing out the fact he was workhorse back in the SEC. Seems like a pretty weak stretch. I guess Dickerson BMI would not have rated to highly either and he is the RB I think Mcfadden is most similar to in both size and running style.

There has been a paradigm shift since Dickerson's era towards shorter, more compact backs. Guys like Tomlinson, Emmitt, Faulk, and Sanders have dominated the league over the past 15 years. Meanwhile there have been few great tall backs and none with a build as slight as McFadden's. It's great that he dominated in college, but it doesn't guarantee anything at the next level. Even in the SEC, a good percentage of the guys starting will be marginal NFL players at best.

There has not been a paradigm shift there has just not been an abundance of talented tall runners. Can you name me another tall runner with Mcfaddens build and speed who failed on the NFL level? Surely you are not trying to say there has been some kind of shift were a player like Eric Dickerson would not be as valued or as good today? There is not a lot of difference between 6-2/210 and 6-3/220 and you seem to be ruling out the fact that Mcfadden has room to gain a few extra pounds.There is no such thing as a guarantee that collegiate success translates to NFL success. But what you can not debate is that on the collegiate level, against the best competition possible, Mcfadden was every bit of the workhorse back you say he can't be in the NFL and you are basing this entirely on his BMI.

There are plenty of good tall athletes. The reason you don't see them at RB is because their body type does not fit the unique demands of the position. Most of the elite running backs in the NFL have exceptional leg drive, which I think is one of the glaring flaws in McFadden's game. He's willing to lower his shoulder and initiate contact, yet he doesn't have the strong base needed to break tackles. His low BMI and borderline vertical leap merely confirm the lack of lower body power.Eric Dickerson is not McFadden just like Peterson is not McFadden. Similar size on paper. Very different players.

As you said most of the elite RB's in the NFL have exceptional leg drive. I agree on that. But most does not mean all. Willie Parker does not have exceptional leg drive but his game is based on speed and he is slower than Mcfadden. He was leading the league in yards and carries before getting hurt with a few weeks to go but he showed he can be a workhorse and productive. I also don't think guys like Westbrook or Edge were bowling people over with their leg drive either and none of those players have the speed or upper body strength of Mcfadden.I won't argue with you that Mcfadden is a unique package in terms of unique speed and build. If you want to argue that will not make him a very good player in the NFL than that is your right but not a debate I'm interested in getting into. What I am arguing with you is that you say he can't be a workhorse back when he has shown against the highest level of competition he could have possibly played against that he can in fact do just that. Until he shows me he can't do that I have zero reason to believe he can't. The thing about it is the only thing we are probably going to find out for sure next year is how good Mcfadden is but I'm not sure you will see him be a workhorse back next year but that has more to do with presence of Fargas and Bush. Similar to how it took Mcallister getting hurt to find out that Bush was not an everydown back we might have to see injuries other Raider backs to see this get put to the test.

 

[cstu]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season. So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

So you are basing this on his BMI and throwing out the fact he was workhorse back in the SEC. Seems like a pretty weak stretch. I guess Dickerson BMI would not have rated to highly either and he is the RB I think Mcfadden is most similar to in both size and running style.

There has been a paradigm shift since Dickerson's era towards shorter, more compact backs. Guys like Tomlinson, Emmitt, Faulk, and Sanders have dominated the league over the past 15 years. Meanwhile there have been few great tall backs and none with a build as slight as McFadden's. It's great that he dominated in college, but it doesn't guarantee anything at the next level. Even in the SEC, a good percentage of the guys starting will be marginal NFL players at best.

There has not been a paradigm shift there has just not been an abundance of talented tall runners. Can you name me another tall runner with Mcfaddens build and speed who failed on the NFL level? Surely you are not trying to say there has been some kind of shift were a player like Eric Dickerson would not be as valued or as good today? There is not a lot of difference between 6-2/210 and 6-3/220 and you seem to be ruling out the fact that Mcfadden has room to gain a few extra pounds.There is no such thing as a guarantee that collegiate success translates to NFL success. But what you can not debate is that on the collegiate level, against the best competition possible, Mcfadden was every bit of the workhorse back you say he can't be in the NFL and you are basing this entirely on his BMI.

Reports have been all over w/r/t McFadden's height and weight. Let's use 6-2, 210, which is a BMI of 27. There have been 10 first round RBs drafted since 1987 with a BMI of 27.5 or lower.Dexter Carter, Warrick Dunn, Eric Metcalf, Gaston Green, D.J. Dozier, Terrence Flagler, Reggie Bush, Paul Palmer, Robert Smith, and Napolean Kauffman. Not a great list of comparables, but some decent guys in there, too.If you want to look just at tall and thin guys, you have to move out of the first round. Since '87, only five RBs before McFadden were drafted in the first four rounds that were 6'1 or taller, with a BMI under 27.5. Robert Drummond, Moe Williams, Robert Smith, Ciatrick Fason (Minnesota doesn't have scales, apparently) and Chris Brown (Ten) were the only ones.As for SEC RBs, they've had a very nice run lately. Ironically enough, they've all been bigger backs. Since Garrison Hearst in '93, 10 of the 11 RBs drafted out of the SEC in the first round have all had at least one very nice year. But 10 of the 11 RBs had BMIs over 29, too. And the one RB with a BMI under 29, had a BMI of 27.8, so he was a lot thinner than the others. And he busted, big time.

Using both Peterson's (6-1 1/2, 217) and McFadden's (6-1 1/4, 211) exact height and weight, their BMI's come out to 28.2 and 27.6, respectively. A gain of 4lbs. puts McFadden as exactly AP's BMI of 28.2.

 

[Chase Stuart]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season. So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

So you are basing this on his BMI and throwing out the fact he was workhorse back in the SEC. Seems like a pretty weak stretch. I guess Dickerson BMI would not have rated to highly either and he is the RB I think Mcfadden is most similar to in both size and running style.

There has been a paradigm shift since Dickerson's era towards shorter, more compact backs. Guys like Tomlinson, Emmitt, Faulk, and Sanders have dominated the league over the past 15 years. Meanwhile there have been few great tall backs and none with a build as slight as McFadden's. It's great that he dominated in college, but it doesn't guarantee anything at the next level. Even in the SEC, a good percentage of the guys starting will be marginal NFL players at best.

There has not been a paradigm shift there has just not been an abundance of talented tall runners. Can you name me another tall runner with Mcfaddens build and speed who failed on the NFL level? Surely you are not trying to say there has been some kind of shift were a player like Eric Dickerson would not be as valued or as good today? There is not a lot of difference between 6-2/210 and 6-3/220 and you seem to be ruling out the fact that Mcfadden has room to gain a few extra pounds.There is no such thing as a guarantee that collegiate success translates to NFL success. But what you can not debate is that on the collegiate level, against the best competition possible, Mcfadden was every bit of the workhorse back you say he can't be in the NFL and you are basing this entirely on his BMI.

There are plenty of good tall athletes. The reason you don't see them at RB is because their body type does not fit the unique demands of the position. Most of the elite running backs in the NFL have exceptional leg drive, which I think is one of the glaring flaws in McFadden's game. He's willing to lower his shoulder and initiate contact, yet he doesn't have the strong base needed to break tackles. His low BMI and borderline vertical leap merely confirm the lack of lower body power.Eric Dickerson is not McFadden just like Peterson is not McFadden. Similar size on paper. Very different players.

As you said most of the elite RB's in the NFL have exceptional leg drive. I agree on that. But most does not mean all. Willie Parker does not have exceptional leg drive but his game is based on speed and he is slower than Mcfadden. He was leading the league in yards and carries before getting hurt with a few weeks to go but he showed he can be a workhorse and productive. I also don't think guys like Westbrook or Edge were bowling people over with their leg drive either and none of those players have the speed or upper body strength of Mcfadden.I won't argue with you that Mcfadden is a unique package in terms of unique speed and build. If you want to argue that will not make him a very good player in the NFL than that is your right but not a debate I'm interested in getting into. What I am arguing with you is that you say he can't be a workhorse back when he has shown against the highest level of competition he could have possibly played against that he can in fact do just that. Until he shows me he can't do that I have zero reason to believe he can't. The thing about it is the only thing we are probably going to find out for sure next year is how good Mcfadden is but I'm not sure you will see him be a workhorse back next year but that has more to do with presence of Fargas and Bush. Similar to how it took Mcallister getting hurt to find out that Bush was not an everydown back we might have to see injuries other Raider backs to see this get put to the test.

Westbrook's a bad example; he's 5'10, 200. That's a BMI of over 30. Here's a helpful way to think of DMC. He weighs the same as Laurence Maroney....but he's four inches taller. Justin McCareins, Muhsin Muhammad, Jerry Porter and Dwayne Bowe are all 6'2 and at least 215 pounds. Do any of those guys look like RBs?Jimmy Smith and Anquan Boldin were in the 6'1, 215 range. Great WRs, but could they have survived at RB?I think McFadden's got a great chance to succeed, by virtue of the fact that he was the 4th pick in the draft. But make no mistake, he's different.

 

[EBF]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season. So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

So you are basing this on his BMI and throwing out the fact he was workhorse back in the SEC. Seems like a pretty weak stretch. I guess Dickerson BMI would not have rated to highly either and he is the RB I think Mcfadden is most similar to in both size and running style.

There has been a paradigm shift since Dickerson's era towards shorter, more compact backs. Guys like Tomlinson, Emmitt, Faulk, and Sanders have dominated the league over the past 15 years. Meanwhile there have been few great tall backs and none with a build as slight as McFadden's. It's great that he dominated in college, but it doesn't guarantee anything at the next level. Even in the SEC, a good percentage of the guys starting will be marginal NFL players at best.

There has not been a paradigm shift there has just not been an abundance of talented tall runners. Can you name me another tall runner with Mcfaddens build and speed who failed on the NFL level? Surely you are not trying to say there has been some kind of shift were a player like Eric Dickerson would not be as valued or as good today? There is not a lot of difference between 6-2/210 and 6-3/220 and you seem to be ruling out the fact that Mcfadden has room to gain a few extra pounds.There is no such thing as a guarantee that collegiate success translates to NFL success. But what you can not debate is that on the collegiate level, against the best competition possible, Mcfadden was every bit of the workhorse back you say he can't be in the NFL and you are basing this entirely on his BMI.

Reports have been all over w/r/t McFadden's height and weight. Let's use 6-2, 210, which is a BMI of 27. There have been 10 first round RBs drafted since 1987 with a BMI of 27.5 or lower.Dexter Carter, Warrick Dunn, Eric Metcalf, Gaston Green, D.J. Dozier, Terrence Flagler, Reggie Bush, Paul Palmer, Robert Smith, and Napolean Kauffman. Not a great list of comparables, but some decent guys in there, too.If you want to look just at tall and thin guys, you have to move out of the first round. Since '87, only five RBs before McFadden were drafted in the first four rounds that were 6'1 or taller, with a BMI under 27.5. Robert Drummond, Moe Williams, Robert Smith, Ciatrick Fason (Minnesota doesn't have scales, apparently) and Chris Brown (Ten) were the only ones.As for SEC RBs, they've had a very nice run lately. Ironically enough, they've all been bigger backs. Since Garrison Hearst in '93, 10 of the 11 RBs drafted out of the SEC in the first round have all had at least one very nice year. But 10 of the 11 RBs had BMIs over 29, too. And the one RB with a BMI under 29, had a BMI of 27.8, so he was a lot thinner than the others. And he busted, big time.

Using both Peterson's (6-1 1/2, 217) and McFadden's (6-1 1/4, 211) exact height and weight, their BMI's come out to 28.2 and 27.6, respectively. A gain of 4lbs. puts McFadden as exactly AP's BMI of 28.2.

Peterson has a low BMI by NFL standards and has yet to demonstrate the durability needed to survive the pounding of a full workload. Also, I'd argue that Peterson is clearly a more powerful runner and that his weight is distributed better throughout his body. McFadden is v-shaped with a big upper body and a thin lower body. No one will confuse ADP for Maurice Jones-Drew, but he has adequate leg strength. Here's what scout.com NFL expert Adam Caplan had to say on the topic of Peterson vs. McFadden:

<dhohenshil> Is Darren McFadden better than Adrian Peterson?Adam Caplan: DH: Not even half the playerAdam Caplan: fans have no ideaAdam Caplan: McFadden doesn't look very good on coaching tapeAdam Caplan: he falls down after one hit way too muchAdam Caplan: he's an open hole runnerAdam Caplan: with great speed

 

[menobrown]

Westbrook's a bad example; he's 5'10, 200. That's a BMI of over 30.

You did not read what I wrote correctly. The Westbrook example has nothing to with BMI but was an example to show RB's without powerful leg drives could exceed. I'm not really caught up in the BMI number as you and a few others appear to be.

 

[Chase Stuart]

The only top 30 runners in the NFL who have a BMI as low as McFadden are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn. The guy is very slender without the lower body bulk you look for in a 300+ carry NFL starter. I don't think he'll be able to break tackles in the NFL and I don't think he'll be able to survive the rigors of a 350-400 touch season.

So while I like his big play skills, I feel his role in the NFL will be more as a RBBC type than a true franchise back.

So you are basing this on his BMI and throwing out the fact he was workhorse back in the SEC. Seems like a pretty weak stretch. I guess Dickerson BMI would not have rated to highly either and he is the RB I think Mcfadden is most similar to in both size and running style.

There has been a paradigm shift since Dickerson's era towards shorter, more compact backs. Guys like Tomlinson, Emmitt, Faulk, and Sanders have dominated the league over the past 15 years. Meanwhile there have been few great tall backs and none with a build as slight as McFadden's. It's great that he dominated in college, but it doesn't guarantee anything at the next level. Even in the SEC, a good percentage of the guys starting will be marginal NFL players at best.

There has not been a paradigm shift there has just not been an abundance of talented tall runners. Can you name me another tall runner with Mcfaddens build and speed who failed on the NFL level? Surely you are not trying to say there has been some kind of shift were a player like Eric Dickerson would not be as valued or as good today? There is not a lot of difference between 6-2/210 and 6-3/220 and you seem to be ruling out the fact that Mcfadden has room to gain a few extra pounds.There is no such thing as a guarantee that collegiate success translates to NFL success. But what you can not debate is that on the collegiate level, against the best competition possible, Mcfadden was every bit of the workhorse back you say he can't be in the NFL and you are basing this entirely on his BMI.

Reports have been all over w/r/t McFadden's height and weight. Let's use 6-2, 210, which is a BMI of 27. There have been 10 first round RBs drafted since 1987 with a BMI of 27.5 or lower.Dexter Carter, Warrick Dunn, Eric Metcalf, Gaston Green, D.J. Dozier, Terrence Flagler, Reggie Bush, Paul Palmer, Robert Smith, and Napolean Kauffman. Not a great list of comparables, but some decent guys in there, too.

If you want to look just at tall and thin guys, you have to move out of the first round. Since '87, only five RBs before McFadden were drafted in the first four rounds that were 6'1 or taller, with a BMI under 27.5. Robert Drummond, Moe Williams, Robert Smith, Ciatrick Fason (Minnesota doesn't have scales, apparently) and Chris Brown (Ten) were the only ones.

As for SEC RBs, they've had a very nice run lately. Ironically enough, they've all been bigger backs. Since Garrison Hearst in '93, 10 of the 11 RBs drafted out of the SEC in the first round have all had at least one very nice year. But 10 of the 11 RBs had BMIs over 29, too. And the one RB with a BMI under 29, had a BMI of 27.8, so he was a lot thinner than the others. And he busted, big time.

Using both Peterson's (6-1 1/2, 217) and McFadden's (6-1 1/4, 211) exact height and weight, their BMI's come out to 28.2 and 27.6, respectively. A gain of 4lbs. puts McFadden as exactly AP's BMI of 28.2.

Peterson's a fair point in McFadden's favor. Perhaps an even bigger point is that DMC is entering the NFL at 1.5 years younger than Peterson did. Here, I pointed out that McFadden's young birthday means Clinton Portis, Edgerrin James and Jamal Lewis are good comparables.But the majority of the BMI evidence is pretty strongly against McFadden.

 

[menobrown]

Peterson has a low BMI by NFL standards and has yet to demonstrate the durability needed to survive the pounding of a full workload.

Unlike DM, AP did not demonstrate durability on the collegiate level either which goes back to my first post in this on why I think it's wrong to presume DM can not be a workhorse back when he, unlike AP, has shown a propensity for being able to do just that.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

But the majority of the BMI evidence is pretty strongly against McFadden.

He's also listed at 210 currently - so if he's bulking up it hasn't started happening yet. I believe he was 211 at the combine.On the other hand, I was looking at the average weight change for RBs under 225 in my 'good' pool earlier this week and the average change was a gain of about 2%. So it's not impossible that he'd find another six pounds.

 

[Burning Sensation]

I know people are going to bump a lot of my posts the moment he breaks his first 20+ yard TD. What I hope these people realize is that I don't necessarily think DMC is devoid of talent, I just don't think he's all he's cracked up to be. He's going to make some big plays, but he doesn't really fit the mold of a workhorse back. I see him more as a suped-up Michael Bennett than the second coming of Tomlinson or Peterson. That's all I've really been saying all along. So you can bump my posts when he breaks a long run here and there, but I won't eat any crow unless he truly becomes a top tier every down back.

I don't hate the Raiders. I'm indifferent towards them. Lately they've been making major commitments to a lot of risky players, so I've been critical of them. Javon Walker, JaMarcus Russell, and Darren McFadden are huge gambles that they didn't have to take. They could've had Calvin Johnson, Matt Schaub, and Glenn Dorsey instead.

Well, thats not entirely true. I have seen you use the word "bust" when describing Mcfadden more than once. However, I dont think people will single you out as the Mcfadden hater for what you have said, but how much you have said it. I cant think of one time Mcfadden has been mentioned on this board that you were not quickly telling us how many flaws he has.

 

[kremenull]

I think it is fairly simple for a young, dedicated, professional athlete to pack on some lbs. as he develops his craft. For anyone to even hint that D-Mac, at over 6'1" and at least 210 lbs., can't, or better yet won't, put on at least 10 lbs. in the next 2-3 years is ludicrous. He's still only 20 yrs old with a frame that can add the weight. From what I've read, this guy has yet to focus on lower body strength, intentionally. His current situation and coaches will undoubtedly push him to focus on that area. Here is an example of what routinely happens to young guys as they develop in the NFL. From the Green Bay newspaper......

It doesn't take a peek at the scale to notice running back Brandon Jackson is bigger and buffer than he was when he arrived in Green Bay as a rookie last May.

Jackson said Wednesday he's added 10 to 15 pounds of "the right kind of weight" during the offseason, and his wide 5-foot-10 frame is carrying 220 pounds, 8 more than his listed weight in 2007.

 

[T Bell]

Yep, Napoleon Kaufman is a good comparison.

 

[Toomuchnv]

Yep, Napoleon Kaufman is a good comparison.

Sebastian Janikowski has a BMI of 32!! Maybe the Raiders should use him at RB instead since he has a better frame....

 

[T Bell]

Yep, Napoleon Kaufman is a good comparison.

Sebastian Janikowski has a BMI of 32!! Maybe the Raiders should use him at RB instead since he has a better frame....

I'll take straw men for $200, Alex.

 

[Toomuchnv]

Yep, Napoleon Kaufman is a good comparison.

Sebastian Janikowski has a BMI of 32!! Maybe the Raiders should use him at RB instead since he has a better frame....

I'll take straw men for $200, Alex.

Also, C.Portis was 5'11 205 coming out of college at the age of 20. He is now 5'11 223. /shrug...i think the BMI success is more a result of kids growing up to become adults during their NFL career....not prior. To say that DMac or AP will have low BMI's throughout their career is ludicrous. I would be willing to bet that both of their BMI's will be up to EBF's standards 2-4 years into their NFL careers.

 

[jurb26]

Yep, Napoleon Kaufman is a good comparison.

Sebastian Janikowski has a BMI of 32!! Maybe the Raiders should use him at RB instead since he has a better frame....

I'll take straw men for $200, Alex.

Also, C.Portis was 5'11 205 coming out of college at the age of 20. He is now 5'11 223. /shrug...i think the BMI success is more a result of kids growing up to become adults during their NFL career....not prior. To say that DMac or AP will have low BMI's throughout their career is ludicrous. I would be willing to bet that both of their BMI's will be up to EBF's standards 2-4 years into their NFL careers.

It really is amazing how many people conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old.

 

[EBF]

Yep, Napoleon Kaufman is a good comparison.

Sebastian Janikowski has a BMI of 32!! Maybe the Raiders should use him at RB instead since he has a better frame....

I'll take straw men for $200, Alex.

Also, C.Portis was 5'11 205 coming out of college at the age of 20. He is now 5'11 223. /shrug...i think the BMI success is more a result of kids growing up to become adults during their NFL career....not prior. To say that DMac or AP will have low BMI's throughout their career is ludicrous. I would be willing to bet that both of their BMI's will be up to EBF's standards 2-4 years into their NFL careers.

It really is amazing how many people conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old.

Certain body types aren't equipped to gain significant amounts of weight. This is something I've mentioned before. Look at guys like Joe Smith and Darius Miles in the NBA. They entered the league as beanpoles and they're still beanpoles after all these years. McFadden's weight problem is a frame issue. He's naturally slender and that won't change.

 

[jurb26]

Yep, Napoleon Kaufman is a good comparison.

Sebastian Janikowski has a BMI of 32!! Maybe the Raiders should use him at RB instead since he has a better frame....

I'll take straw men for $200, Alex.

Also, C.Portis was 5'11 205 coming out of college at the age of 20. He is now 5'11 223. /shrug...i think the BMI success is more a result of kids growing up to become adults during their NFL career....not prior. To say that DMac or AP will have low BMI's throughout their career is ludicrous. I would be willing to bet that both of their BMI's will be up to EBF's standards 2-4 years into their NFL careers.

It really is amazing how many people conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old.

Certain body types aren't equipped to gain significant amounts of weight. This is something I've mentioned before. Look at guys like Joe Smith and Darius Miles in the NBA. They entered the league as beanpoles and they're still beanpoles after all these years. McFadden's weight problem is a frame issue. He's naturally slender and that won't change.

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

 

[One]

Yep, Napoleon Kaufman is a good comparison.

Sebastian Janikowski has a BMI of 32!! Maybe the Raiders should use him at RB instead since he has a better frame....

I'll take straw men for $200, Alex.

Also, C.Portis was 5'11 205 coming out of college at the age of 20. He is now 5'11 223. /shrug...i think the BMI success is more a result of kids growing up to become adults during their NFL career....not prior. To say that DMac or AP will have low BMI's throughout their career is ludicrous. I would be willing to bet that both of their BMI's will be up to EBF's standards 2-4 years into their NFL careers.

It really is amazing how many people conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old.

Certain body types aren't equipped to gain significant amounts of weight. This is something I've mentioned before. Look at guys like Joe Smith and Darius Miles in the NBA. They entered the league as beanpoles and they're still beanpoles after all these years. McFadden's weight problem is a frame issue. He's naturally slender and that won't change.

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

Save your breath. It's obvious some people here simply don't want to like the guy.

 

[EBF]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

 

[jurb26]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

Every WR wants to look like TO? Where in the world would you get that idea? I would think WRs would be more inclined to want to look like Moss if anything. Sure, most players entering the NFL are pretty close to maxed out physically. Guess what, most players entering the NFL are not 20 and have actually done squats while in college.

 

[EBF]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

Every WR wants to look like TO? Where in the world would you get that idea? I would think WRs would be more inclined to want to look like Moss if anything. Sure, most players entering the NFL are pretty close to maxed out physically. Guess what, most players entering the NFL are not 20 and have actually done squats while in college.

So do you think if Ted Ginn hit the weight room, he could get as big as Anquan Boldin?

 

[jurb26]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

Every WR wants to look like TO? Where in the world would you get that idea? I would think WRs would be more inclined to want to look like Moss if anything. Sure, most players entering the NFL are pretty close to maxed out physically. Guess what, most players entering the NFL are not 20 and have actually done squats while in college.

So do you think if Ted Ginn hit the weight room, he could get as big as Anquan Boldin?

Why would Ted Ginn want to look like Boldin? Boldin and Ginn are far different players and have far different strengths. No, I don't think he could, but I also see that as totally irrelevant.

 

[Toomuchnv]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

L. Maroney was drafted in '06 weighing 210...he now is listed in '08 at 220....sure looks like he entered the league "maxed out". Do you really think DMac won't be able to put on weight under an NFL training program at the ripe age of 20? C. Portis put on 18 lbs since he came into the league at 20. While I like BMI as a tool, I don't think it is the be all end all for the success of an NFL rb. The reason being is that a RB's bmi more times than not changes once they have played in the NFL a couple years. For you to say you doubt McFadden won't be able to put on any weight is ludicrous IMO.

 

[jurb26]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

L. Maroney was drafted in '06 weighing 210...he now is listed in '08 at 220....sure looks like he entered the league "maxed out". Do you really think DMac won't be able to put on weight under an NFL training program at the ripe age of 20? C. Portis put on 18 lbs since he came into the league at 20. While I like BMI as a tool, I don't think it is the be all end all for the success of an NFL rb. The reason being is that a RB's bmi more times than not changes once they have played in the NFL a couple years. For you to say you doubt McFadden won't be able to put on any weight is ludicrous IMO.

No its really just par for the course.Even MJD (who is and was practically a ball of lead coming into the NFL and now) has put on 5 lbs since entering. Han, McFadden can't though.

 

[EBF]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

L. Maroney was drafted in '06 weighing 210...he now is listed in '08 at 220....sure looks like he entered the league "maxed out". Do you really think DMac won't be able to put on weight under an NFL training program at the ripe age of 20? C. Portis put on 18 lbs since he came into the league at 20. While I like BMI as a tool, I don't think it is the be all end all for the success of an NFL rb. The reason being is that a RB's bmi more times than not changes once they have played in the NFL a couple years. For you to say you doubt McFadden won't be able to put on any weight is ludicrous IMO.

Maroney weighed 217 at the combine. http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=10249

 

[EBF]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

Every WR wants to look like TO? Where in the world would you get that idea? I would think WRs would be more inclined to want to look like Moss if anything. Sure, most players entering the NFL are pretty close to maxed out physically. Guess what, most players entering the NFL are not 20 and have actually done squats while in college.

So do you think if Ted Ginn hit the weight room, he could get as big as Anquan Boldin?

Why would Ted Ginn want to look like Boldin? Boldin and Ginn are far different players and have far different strengths. No, I don't think he could, but I also see that as totally irrelevant.

If you don't think Ginn can progress from a slight build to a bulky build then why don't you feel the same way about McFadden?

 

[Toomuchnv]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

L. Maroney was drafted in '06 weighing 210...he now is listed in '08 at 220....sure looks like he entered the league "maxed out". Do you really think DMac won't be able to put on weight under an NFL training program at the ripe age of 20? C. Portis put on 18 lbs since he came into the league at 20. While I like BMI as a tool, I don't think it is the be all end all for the success of an NFL rb. The reason being is that a RB's bmi more times than not changes once they have played in the NFL a couple years. For you to say you doubt McFadden won't be able to put on any weight is ludicrous IMO.

Maroney weighed 217 at the combine. http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=10249

/shrug according to Pro-Football Reference he weighed 210...

 

[EBF]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

L. Maroney was drafted in '06 weighing 210...he now is listed in '08 at 220....sure looks like he entered the league "maxed out". Do you really think DMac won't be able to put on weight under an NFL training program at the ripe age of 20? C. Portis put on 18 lbs since he came into the league at 20. While I like BMI as a tool, I don't think it is the be all end all for the success of an NFL rb. The reason being is that a RB's bmi more times than not changes once they have played in the NFL a couple years. For you to say you doubt McFadden won't be able to put on any weight is ludicrous IMO.

Maroney weighed 217 at the combine. http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=10249

/shrug according to Pro-Football Reference he weighed 210...

215 at his Pro Day: http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=54331

Would bet that's pretty close to his actual current weight.

 

[jurb26]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

Every WR wants to look like TO? Where in the world would you get that idea? I would think WRs would be more inclined to want to look like Moss if anything. Sure, most players entering the NFL are pretty close to maxed out physically. Guess what, most players entering the NFL are not 20 and have actually done squats while in college.

So do you think if Ted Ginn hit the weight room, he could get as big as Anquan Boldin?

Why would Ted Ginn want to look like Boldin? Boldin and Ginn are far different players and have far different strengths. No, I don't think he could, but I also see that as totally irrelevant.

If you don't think Ginn can progress from a slight build to a bulky build then why don't you feel the same way about McFadden?

I don't think Ginn wants to or needs to. Is that really that difficult for you to understand? Since when does Ginn need to have the build of TO or Boldin to be a successful WR? I guess guys like Harrison, Holmes, Moss, Johnson, ect are all destined to never be any good then. Along those same line, McFadden doesn't need to transform his body into J. Lewis or Bettis to be a successful RB. Nobody is saying he is going to make some sort of incredible Hulk change. Only that he will more than likely gain weight.

 

[jurb26]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

L. Maroney was drafted in '06 weighing 210...he now is listed in '08 at 220....sure looks like he entered the league "maxed out". Do you really think DMac won't be able to put on weight under an NFL training program at the ripe age of 20? C. Portis put on 18 lbs since he came into the league at 20. While I like BMI as a tool, I don't think it is the be all end all for the success of an NFL rb. The reason being is that a RB's bmi more times than not changes once they have played in the NFL a couple years. For you to say you doubt McFadden won't be able to put on any weight is ludicrous IMO.

Maroney weighed 217 at the combine. http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=10249

/shrug according to Pro-Football Reference he weighed 210...

215 at his Pro Day: http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=54331

Would bet that's pretty close to his actual current weight.

He's listed at 220 right now.http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9607

 

[EBF]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

Every WR wants to look like TO? Where in the world would you get that idea? I would think WRs would be more inclined to want to look like Moss if anything. Sure, most players entering the NFL are pretty close to maxed out physically. Guess what, most players entering the NFL are not 20 and have actually done squats while in college.

So do you think if Ted Ginn hit the weight room, he could get as big as Anquan Boldin?

Why would Ted Ginn want to look like Boldin? Boldin and Ginn are far different players and have far different strengths. No, I don't think he could, but I also see that as totally irrelevant.

If you don't think Ginn can progress from a slight build to a bulky build then why don't you feel the same way about McFadden?

I don't think Ginn wants to or needs to. Is that really that difficult for you to understand? Since when does Ginn need to have the build of TO or Boldin to be a successful WR? I guess guys like Harrison, Holmes, Moss, Johnson, ect are all destined to never be any good then.

You really didn't answer my question.If you don't think Ginn can progress from a slight frame to a bulky frame, why don't you feel the same way about McFadden?

 

[jurb26]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

Every WR wants to look like TO? Where in the world would you get that idea? I would think WRs would be more inclined to want to look like Moss if anything. Sure, most players entering the NFL are pretty close to maxed out physically. Guess what, most players entering the NFL are not 20 and have actually done squats while in college.

So do you think if Ted Ginn hit the weight room, he could get as big as Anquan Boldin?

Why would Ted Ginn want to look like Boldin? Boldin and Ginn are far different players and have far different strengths. No, I don't think he could, but I also see that as totally irrelevant.

If you don't think Ginn can progress from a slight build to a bulky build then why don't you feel the same way about McFadden?

I don't think Ginn wants to or needs to. Is that really that difficult for you to understand? Since when does Ginn need to have the build of TO or Boldin to be a successful WR? I guess guys like Harrison, Holmes, Moss, Johnson, ect are all destined to never be any good then.

You really didn't answer my question.If you don't think Ginn can progress from a slight frame to a bulky frame, why don't you feel the same way about McFadden?

You're making things up now. When did I say McFadden would transform into a "bulky frame?" I simply said he could and probably will gain weight.Since you seem so confident that McFadden can't gain any weight and is physically maxed out at 20 would you care to make a monetary wager on that?

 

[EBF]

Here's something I've posted a couple times before:

I just compiled a quick list of BMI scores for the top 30 RBs in my PPR league. I got all of my heights and weights from NFL.com and used a BMI calculator from the following link: http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/.

The results:

Brian Westbrook - 29.1

LaDainian Tomlinson - 31.7

Clinton Portis - 31.1

Joseph Addai - 29.8

Adrian Peterson - 28.6

Jamal Lewis - 34.2

Frank Gore - 32.9

Marion Barber - 30.0

Willis McGahee - 31.5

Earnest Graham - 33.2

Reggie Bush - 27.5

Maurice Drew - 32.6

Edgerrin James - 29.8

Kenny Watson - 29.6

Steven Jackson - 29.7

Marshawn Lynch - 30.0

Ryan Grant - 29.6

LenDale White - 31.0

Chester Taylor - 29.7

Willie Parker - 30.0

Brandon Jacobs - 32.1

Thomas Jones - 30.8

Ronnie Brown - 31.5

Justin Fargas - 29.0

Adrian Peterson II - 30.1

Fred Taylor - 30.1

Kevin Jones - 30.9

Warrick Dunn - 27.6

DeShaun Foster - 30.1

DeAngelo Williams - 32.0

High: Jamal Lewis 34.2

Low: Reggie Bush 27.5

Average: 30.5

27 out of 30 RBs were between 28.6 and 33.2. That means 90% of the top 30 RBs in 2007 had a BMI between 28.6 and 33.2.

It looks like a RB needs a BMI of at least 28.5-29 to be a workhorse in the NFL. Dunn and Bush are the only two backs on the list with BMI scores below 28 and I wouldn't call either of those two backs a workhorse. McFadden is 6'1.2" and 211 pounds. If he gained 5 pounds, he would still only have a BMI of 28.3. In order to get up to the average level of an NFL starter, he would have to gain about 21-22 pounds.

The fact that he's only 7 pounds away from Peterson's 28.6 BMI might be cause for optimism, but Peterson has a low BMI by NFL standards and has yet to demonstrate the ability to handle a heavy workload and stay healthy. Also, I think Peterson has a better distribution of weight through his body and is clearly a stronger runner who's better at breaking tackles. I suspect McFadden supporters won't find these arguments agreeable, but that's my take.

I think McFadden would probably have to gain a lot of weight to become a true bell cow RB in the NFL and I think it's unlikely that his body can accomodate the necessary bulk. I've laid out these arguments time and time again. You either find them compelling or you don't. True believers like jurb can pout and moan all they want, but only time and results can tell whether or not my arguments have any merits.

 

[jurb26]

Here's something I've posted a couple times before:

I just compiled a quick list of BMI scores for the top 30 RBs in my PPR league. I got all of my heights and weights from NFL.com and used a BMI calculator from the following link: http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/.

The results:

Brian Westbrook - 29.1

LaDainian Tomlinson - 31.7

Clinton Portis - 31.1

Joseph Addai - 29.8

Adrian Peterson - 28.6

Jamal Lewis - 34.2

Frank Gore - 32.9

Marion Barber - 30.0

Willis McGahee - 31.5

Earnest Graham - 33.2

Reggie Bush - 27.5

Maurice Drew - 32.6

Edgerrin James - 29.8

Kenny Watson - 29.6

Steven Jackson - 29.7

Marshawn Lynch - 30.0

Ryan Grant - 29.6

LenDale White - 31.0

Chester Taylor - 29.7

Willie Parker - 30.0

Brandon Jacobs - 32.1

Thomas Jones - 30.8

Ronnie Brown - 31.5

Justin Fargas - 29.0

Adrian Peterson II - 30.1

Fred Taylor - 30.1

Kevin Jones - 30.9

Warrick Dunn - 27.6

DeShaun Foster - 30.1

DeAngelo Williams - 32.0

High: Jamal Lewis 34.2

Low: Reggie Bush 27.5

Average: 30.5

27 out of 30 RBs were between 28.6 and 33.2. That means 90% of the top 30 RBs in 2007 had a BMI between 28.6 and 33.2.

It looks like a RB needs a BMI of at least 28.5-29 to be a workhorse in the NFL. Dunn and Bush are the only two backs on the list with BMI scores below 28 and I wouldn't call either of those two backs a workhorse. McFadden is 6'1.2" and 211 pounds. If he gained 5 pounds, he would still only have a BMI of 28.3. In order to get up to the average level of an NFL starter, he would have to gain about 21-22 pounds.

The fact that he's only 7 pounds away from Peterson's 28.6 BMI might be cause for optimism, but Peterson has a low BMI by NFL standards and has yet to demonstrate the ability to handle a heavy workload and stay healthy. Also, I think Peterson has a better distribution of weight through his body and is clearly a stronger runner who's better at breaking tackles. I suspect McFadden supporters won't find these arguments agreeable, but that's my take.

I think McFadden would probably have to gain a lot of weight to become a true bell cow RB in the NFL and I think it's unlikely that his body can accomodate the necessary bulk. I've laid out these arguments time and time again. You either find them compelling or you don't. True believers like jurb can pout and moan all they want, but only time and results can tell whether or not my arguments have any merits.

Is this your way of backtracking out of the notion that McFadden wont gain weight? Nobody is pouting or moaning. Just pointing out when something being stated is rather ridiculous like McFadden can't gain weight. Or that he isn't an elite athlete. Wager is still available if you like.