Game Recognizes Game...i.e., If U Got It, U Can See It (1 Viewer)

[Junta]

There are a few glaring issues that are not being addressed in this thread:

1. The talk of paradigm shift has failed to highlight that wwe are in the midst of a paradigm shift right now regarding the personnel utilization strategies at the RB position. We will soon be in an era of extinction for "every down backs" for a couple reasons. Offenses must be flexible enough to deal with the many looks that modern Defenses are throwing at them today. That requires the ability to play a power game, a perimeter speed game, and a multifaceted passing game which utilizes strong receivers at every skill position. Second reason, is the upfront investment in high end RB has become so high that teams must figure out how to "stretch the amotization schedule" of that investment" by reducing the number of times that investment gets hit every year.

2. BMI in the rear view mirror is a great tool, but the game gets faster every season and these days, the degree of speed necessary to be a threat to take it to the house on any touch is virtually non existent in a RB with a 30+ BMI. ADP emerged so strongly last year because he has that type of speed and while the qualitative debate of weight distribution can go on for days, quantitatively he and DMac are not far apart in BMI.

DMac can catch the ball, can get to the corner and he is flat out fast. With $26 million guaranteed, if the Raiders were to try and utilize him by jamming him into 330 lb DTs 12-15 x game, vs. game planning to get him to the edge or get him the ball in space, then they truly are the dumbest organization in professional sports.

 

[Toomuchnv]

I would also bet that the average BMI for those rb's ebf listed would be lower if you used their height and weight from when they were drafted and not where they are at in their NFL career...If DMac were to put on 10 lbs in the next couple years his BMI would be right there with B. Westbrook....If you don't think its possible for DMac to add 10 lbs of bulk as a 20 year old going into the NFL then explain how C.Portis added over 15 lbs of bulk since entering the league as a 20 year old...

 

[Toomuchnv]

On a side note...one of the RB's that didn't have a good enough BMI on EBF's list happened to run in Tom Cable's ZBS in 2006....he finished 15th in the league in rushing that year for Atlanta...DMac will be running in Tom Cable's ZBS this year...

 

[EBF]

2. BMI in the rear view mirror is a great tool, but the game gets faster every season and these days, the degree of speed necessary to be a threat to take it to the house on any touch is virtually non existent in a RB with a 30+ BMI. ADP emerged so strongly last year because he has that type of speed and while the qualitative debate of weight distribution can go on for days, quantitatively he and DMac are not far apart in BMI.

This isn't accurate. In fact, one of the few things a lot of the recent "breakout" RB's have had in common is a high BMI:Steven Jackson - 29.7Rudi Johnson - 30.7Marion Barber - 30.0Maurice Jones-Drew - 32.6Frank Gore - 32.9Arguably the top running backs of the past 5-10 years:Curtis Martin - 29.3Edgerrin James - 29.8Larry Johnson - 30.3Barry Sanders - 30.9Emmitt Smith - 31.0Clinton Portis - 31.1Priest Holmes - 31.5LaDainian Tomlinson - 31.7Shaun Alexander - 31.8Ricky Williams - 32.4A high BMI is the norm and not the exception for an elite pro running back. Saying "the degree of speed necessary to be a threat to take it to the house on any touch is virtually non existent in a RB with a 30+ BMI" is just flat out false, unless you don't think Tomlinson, Portis, and MJD have the speed to take it to the house.

 

[EBF]

If you don't think its possible for DMac to add 10 lbs of bulk as a 20 year old going into the NFL then explain how C.Portis added over 15 lbs of bulk since entering the league as a 20 year old...

Possible and probable are two different things. I think it's possible that DMC will bulk up. I don't think it's probable. Personally, I don't think he has the type of frame that can carry much more bulk. He's similar to Jamaal Charles in this regard. They're naturally thin in the lower body, whereas guys like Mendenhall and Rice have the stout body type you look for.

 

[Toomuchnv]

2. BMI in the rear view mirror is a great tool, but the game gets faster every season and these days, the degree of speed necessary to be a threat to take it to the house on any touch is virtually non existent in a RB with a 30+ BMI. ADP emerged so strongly last year because he has that type of speed and while the qualitative debate of weight distribution can go on for days, quantitatively he and DMac are not far apart in BMI.

This isn't accurate. In fact, one of the few things a lot of the recent "breakout" RB's have had in common is a high BMI:Steven Jackson - 29.7Rudi Johnson - 30.7Marion Barber - 30.0Maurice Jones-Drew - 32.6Frank Gore - 32.9Arguably the top running backs of the past 5-10 years:Curtis Martin - 29.3Edgerrin James - 29.8Larry Johnson - 30.3Barry Sanders - 30.9Emmitt Smith - 31.0Clinton Portis - 31.1Priest Holmes - 31.5LaDainian Tomlinson - 31.7Shaun Alexander - 31.8Ricky Williams - 32.4A high BMI is the norm and not the exception for an elite pro running back. Saying "the degree of speed necessary to be a threat to take it to the house on any touch is virtually non existent in a RB with a 30+ BMI" is just flat out false, unless you don't think Tomlinson, Portis, and MJD have the speed to take it to the house.

What about B. Westbrook whose BMI is 29.1....I personally think DMac's BMI will be close to or equal to B. Westbrook and C. Martin by the time he is in the prime of his career...

 

[jurb26]

If you don't think its possible for DMac to add 10 lbs of bulk as a 20 year old going into the NFL then explain how C.Portis added over 15 lbs of bulk since entering the league as a 20 year old...

Possible and probable are two different things. I think it's possible that DMC will bulk up. I don't think it's probable. Personally, I don't think he has the type of frame that can carry much more bulk. He's similar to Jamaal Charles in this regard. They're naturally thin in the lower body, whereas guys like Mendenhall and Rice have the stout body type you look for.

So then, why do you keep ignoring the wager?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

What about B. Westbrook whose BMI is 29.1....I personally think DMac's BMI will be close to or equal to B. Westbrook and C. Martin by the time he is in the prime of his career...

Wesbrook's BMI is 30.668.3" tall, 203 pounds

 

[EBF]

If you don't think its possible for DMac to add 10 lbs of bulk as a 20 year old going into the NFL then explain how C.Portis added over 15 lbs of bulk since entering the league as a 20 year old...

Possible and probable are two different things. I think it's possible that DMC will bulk up. I don't think it's probable. Personally, I don't think he has the type of frame that can carry much more bulk. He's similar to Jamaal Charles in this regard. They're naturally thin in the lower body, whereas guys like Mendenhall and Rice have the stout body type you look for.

So then, why do you keep ignoring the wager?

I'm not interested in gambling on his weight. I'll stand by statements though.

 

[EBF]

What about B. Westbrook whose BMI is 29.1....I personally think DMac's BMI will be close to or equal to B. Westbrook and C. Martin by the time he is in the prime of his career...

Wesbrook's BMI is 30.668.3" tall, 203 pounds

What he said. Westbrook's actual height is closer to 5'8" than 5'10". I got my heights and weights from NFL.com. They're a pretty good approximation of the actual numbers, but they're not always totally precise.

 

[Toomuchnv]

What about B. Westbrook whose BMI is 29.1....I personally think DMac's BMI will be close to or equal to B. Westbrook and C. Martin by the time he is in the prime of his career...

Wesbrook's BMI is 30.668.3" tall, 203 pounds

What he said. Westbrook's actual height is closer to 5'8" than 5'10". I got my heights and weights from NFL.com. They're a pretty good approximation of the actual numbers, but they're not always totally precise.

Really, so the Philadelphia Eagles Team website is wrong? Which lists him at 5'10 203....whatever you need to help your argument I guess...

 

[UnknownCoach]

Al Davis likes to get players who fit a certain mold. He's not afraid to go after a skinny back with speed. In fact, he might be looking for just that.

If only Kaufman had as good of receiving skills as McFadden? I liked Kaufman but I think the reason Kaufman is pimping McFadden's skills as multi-threat is because Kaufman was pretty one dimensional. Charlie Garner, another former Raider player, was one of the more unique backs in NFL history at 5'10" 190. He was a great receiver who thrived in pass first offenses.

Let's look at the most famous RB in Raiders history. Marcus Allen: 6'2" 210 has a build very simuliar to DMac and good receiving skills. He also happened to be arguably the best short yardage back in history because of his jump. He was such a good blocker he even played some fullback. Even if you took away half of Allen's TDs, his numbers are remarkable.

Yes, you also have to consider that DMac could add a few pounds. I think Allen weighed under 205 at one time. I dont think they want DMac to add a lot, but a few is probable.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Really, so the Philadelphia Eagles Team website is wrong? Which lists him at 5'10 203....whatever you need to help your argument I guess...

If you want to believe he grew two inches after being measured at the combine while 22 years old you're free to. I won't even try to stop you.

 

[EBF]

What about B. Westbrook whose BMI is 29.1....I personally think DMac's BMI will be close to or equal to B. Westbrook and C. Martin by the time he is in the prime of his career...

Wesbrook's BMI is 30.668.3" tall, 203 pounds

What he said. Westbrook's actual height is closer to 5'8" than 5'10". I got my heights and weights from NFL.com. They're a pretty good approximation of the actual numbers, but they're not always totally precise.

Really, so the Philadelphia Eagles Team website is wrong?

Yep.Draftscout:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=60144

Wikipedia:

Despite his dominance in college, NFL teams were hesitant to draft him in the 2002 NFL Draft for three reasons: his small size (he listed at only 5'8", 200 lb (91 kg)), his injury history (he missed an entire college season with a knee injury), and the fact that he did not play college football for a NCAA Division I-A school. Philadelphia Eagles head coach Andy Reid liked what he had seen from Westbrook, who played at nearby Villanova, and drafted him in the third round.

 

[cstu]

So now we're comparing NBA players and training programs with NFL.

I've discussed this topic ad nauseum on these boards, so it's a little frustrating to have to rehash the same old arguments again and again. I'll keep it simple:Gaining weight is not simply a matter of will and effort. If it were, every WR in the NFL would look like Terrell Owens. The reality is that certain body types are better equipped to add mass than others. No amount of weight training can turn Todd Pinkston into Anquan Boldin. This is so intuitive that I can't believe there are even people who deny it.

Most players are pretty close to maxed out by the time they get to the NFL. For every Clinton Portis there are several guys like Steven Jackson, Kevin Jones, Laurence Maroney, Marshawn Lynch, Ricky Williams, Edgerrin James, and LaDainian Tomlinson who enter the league maxed out. So to be skeptical of McFadden's ability to gain weight isn't in any way shape or form to "conveniently ignore the fact that McFadden is still only 20 years old" but rather to recognize that the majority of NFL players do not radically alter their body type after being drafted. Is it possible that McFadden will get bigger? Maybe. Is it probable? I doubt it.

The bottom line is that there are people who already made up their minds about McFadden either way, so they're inclined to interpret any data points in such a way that they support their pre-conceived opinion. The people who already liked McFadden will look at the BMI issue and, rather than assume it's a serious red flag, suggest he'll gain weight. The people who were were already skeptical of McFadden will look at the BMI issue, and rather than assume he'll gain weight, assume it's a serious red flag.

Believe it or not, I've actually tried to be objective about this player. If you sift through all my comments you'll see that I've made plenty of digs about his "chicken legs" and his slight frame, but you'll also see that I've fully acknowledged his on-field accomplishment and his elite speed. My honest assessment is that McFadden has an atypical build for a first round RB, presenting considerable risk factors that his supporters are way too quick to gloss over. We can bicker all we want, but time will ultimately show whether any concerns were well-founded. At this point I'd rather just wait and see than argue with stubborn people.

I don't know about the rest of the guys you listed since I didn't follow their careers as closely since high school, but Kevin Jones was built like McFadden early in his college career. I believe he put on about 20lbs. from his freshman to junior year and he was a year older than McFadden during those years. I'll have to let it go because you are obviously sold on the idea of unchangeable body types. It's all in the training that guys do and whether they are willing to put in the work.

 

[Junta]

2. BMI in the rear view mirror is a great tool, but the game gets faster every season and these days, the degree of speed necessary to be a threat to take it to the house on any touch is virtually non existent in a RB with a 30+ BMI. ADP emerged so strongly last year because he has that type of speed and while the qualitative debate of weight distribution can go on for days, quantitatively he and DMac are not far apart in BMI.

This isn't accurate. In fact, one of the few things a lot of the recent "breakout" RB's have had in common is a high BMI:Steven Jackson - 29.7Rudi Johnson - 30.7Marion Barber - 30.0Maurice Jones-Drew - 32.6Frank Gore - 32.9Arguably the top running backs of the past 5-10 years:Curtis Martin - 29.3Edgerrin James - 29.8Larry Johnson - 30.3Barry Sanders - 30.9Emmitt Smith - 31.0Clinton Portis - 31.1Priest Holmes - 31.5LaDainian Tomlinson - 31.7Shaun Alexander - 31.8Ricky Williams - 32.4A high BMI is the norm and not the exception for an elite pro running back. Saying "the degree of speed necessary to be a threat to take it to the house on any touch is virtually non existent in a RB with a 30+ BMI" is just flat out false, unless you don't think Tomlinson, Portis, and MJD have the speed to take it to the house.

You are missing the point I was trying to make that the game is changing. You are still looking at history and making your case there, However, when others use Marcus Allen or Eric Dickerson as examples of effective RB with lower BMI you just dismiss as "the past". I believe the game is changing to the point that past 5 years will not be "the norm" and Offenses in the next 5 years will have to possess a a variety of players at the RB position, some with more skills between the tackles, some that are balanced and some that can simply run away from people. DMac will not be the 1st, a little of the 2nd and will definintely be the latter.BTW, % of carries that went 20+ yards:LT 3.8%Portis 3.1%MJD 6%ADP 6.7%