Good ole Hermie Edwards says (1 Viewer)

[trader jake]

Let's simplify all of this word play, shall we?

Herm Edwards is a below average NFL head coach. Sermon talks a good game but the guy is all show, motivation, and pep talks. That would make him a fine college coach but the guy doesn't have the skills to coach against the best the NFL has to offer.

The Chiefs will find out what the Jets learned soon enough.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Let's simplify all of this word play, shall we?Herm Edwards is a below average NFL head coach. Sermon talks a good game but the guy is all show, motivation, and pep talks. That would make him a fine college coach but the guy doesn't have the skills to coach against the best the NFL has to offer.The Chiefs will find out what the Jets learned soon enough.

He'll be an excellent college coach. Reminds me a bunch of Pete Carroll.That being said, Herm Edwards won two playoffs games. Lots of pretty good coaches haven't done that yet (Jack Del Rio, Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis haven't won any). No, he's not Bill Belichick...but he's not Rich Kotite, either.

 

[trader jake]

Let's simplify all of this word play, shall we?Herm Edwards is a below average NFL head coach. Sermon talks a good game but the guy is all show, motivation, and pep talks. That would make him a fine college coach but the guy doesn't have the skills to coach against the best the NFL has to offer.The Chiefs will find out what the Jets learned soon enough.

He'll be an excellent college coach. Reminds me a bunch of Pete Carroll.That being said, Herm Edwards won two playoffs games. Lots of pretty good coaches haven't done that yet (Jack Del Rio, Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis haven't won any). No, he's not Bill Belichick...but he's not Rich Kotite, either.

Agreed. Sermon would be a great hire for some college program in need of a hype man. I give him two years in Kansas City before we see him move on and explore this option.

 

[joffer]

the insane overreaction to one game just goes on and on.......................

 

[trader jake]

the insane overreaction to one game just goes on and on.......................

Those not paying attention to Sermon's track record keep saying this. Many drafted LJ #1 overall, talked Tony G. up as a guy to knock off Gates, others went with Eddie Kennison and Trent Green way to early in fantasy drafts. Still others were talking up the Chiefs as a playoff team.Too bad the new head coach makes all of these things much more difficult to achieve. To quote every player in the league, "It is what it is"...and in the case of Sermon Edwards it's a whole lot of smoke and mirrors. The guy just isn't the right man for the job.Just my 2 cents. Carry on.

 

[joffer]

the insane overreaction to one game just goes on and on.......................

Those not paying attention to Sermon's track record keep saying this. Many drafted LJ #1 overall, talked Tony G. up as a guy to knock off Gates, others went with Eddie Kennison and Trent Green way to early in fantasy drafts. Still others were talking up the Chiefs as a playoff team.

148 total yards for LJ10/81/1 for Gonzoboth with the #1 QB missing 1/3 of the game

 

[shadow2k]

the insane overreaction to one game just goes on and on.......................

Those not paying attention to Sermon's track record keep saying this. Many drafted LJ #1 overall, talked Tony G. up as a guy to knock off Gates, others went with Eddie Kennison and Trent Green way to early in fantasy drafts. Still others were talking up the Chiefs as a playoff team.Too bad the new head coach makes all of these things much more difficult to achieve. To quote every player in the league, "It is what it is"...and in the case of Sermon Edwards it's a whole lot of smoke and mirrors. The guy just isn't the right man for the job.Just my 2 cents. Carry on.

Did you actually watch the game? Somehow, I doubt it.Could you please explain how Herm's "track record" somehow correlates to what went wrong in the game on Sunday? Anything at all. Thanks.

 

[ren hoek]

This Herman Edwards/Carl Peterson relationship will end well.

 

[mhrutkowski]

I feel for Chiefs fans. I really do. I hope they realize what they're in for.

 

[BlueOnion]

I really like Herm, but he is clearly off his rocker at this time. He needs to take at least one season off (ala Denny Green), step away from the limelight and refocus on the individual strengths that originally got him the Jets gig.

Ever since 'You play to win the games', Herm has begun to mentally crack.

 

[Reaper]

the insane overreaction to one game just goes on and on.......................

Those not paying attention to Sermon's track record keep saying this. Many drafted LJ #1 overall, talked Tony G. up as a guy to knock off Gates, others went with Eddie Kennison and Trent Green way to early in fantasy drafts. Still others were talking up the Chiefs as a playoff team.Too bad the new head coach makes all of these things much more difficult to achieve. To quote every player in the league, "It is what it is"...and in the case of Sermon Edwards it's a whole lot of smoke and mirrors. The guy just isn't the right man for the job.Just my 2 cents. Carry on.

Did you actually watch the game? Somehow, I doubt it.Could you please explain how Herm's "track record" somehow correlates to what went wrong in the game on Sunday? Anything at all. Thanks.

MISCOMMUNICATION THAT is Herm's track record and an apparent problem in game 1.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

Not to get engaged in this semantic debate, but I think the classic "Playing not to lose vs. playing to win" scenario is when you have a situation where a team is up by 4-7 point (i.e. >FG).

They are presented with the ball is respectable field position, i.e. their own 30-45.

The clock is in their favor and they know that if they get one first down--only one--the other team is at their mercy and they can take a win to clinch victory.

A coach who is playing not to lose, will run the ball three times in that situation even if he thinks there are plays in his playbook that have greater odds of picking up a first down and winning the game.

A coach playing to win will try a playaction or similar pass play that will increase the likliehood of picking up the first down and winning the game.

Every situation can be broken down into a percentage of winning the game. If it's 0-0 and the teams are even, and there's 15:00 left in the 1st quarter, each team's chances are 50/50.

If it's 10-0 and there's 5:00 left in the 2nd quarter, the winning team has say a 65% chance (just a rough guess).

If a team is up by 5 with the ball on their own 40 and there's 2:00 to go, the team probably has a 90% chance of winning on 1st and 10. If they run for 0 yards, and now there's 1:55 to go, maybe they have an 87% chance to win. If they pass for 7 yards and there's 1:55 to go, maybe they now have a 95% chance of winning. If they pass and it's intercepted, maybe they have a 55% chance.

But every play and every play call slides each team's chances of winning up or down. A coach who is playing not to lose may run the abll three times, but if that increases his team's odds of winning, he's not playing not to lose --> he's playing to win. If running three times decreases his team's chances of winning, he's not playing not to lose --> he's playing to lose.

The terms conservative and aggressive are much more descriptive of what you want here, I think. But there's no such thing as playing not to lose and not playing to win, unless you're kneeling on the ball with 30 seconds left in overtime.

Well, Chase, it's very clear you are literally interpreting the sports aphorism "Playing not to lose." To which, by the very definition of words, you are correct: playing "not to lose" and playing "to win" cannot be diametrically opposed as by their literal defintion they are one and the same.But in sports, let's just say there are coaches who would rather play risk-averse when ahead and run plays statistically & historically with less chance of making a mistake vs. coaches who weigh the risk vs reward and determine to run a risky play if the reward is a likely victory.

Herm & Schotty are the former. Tuna & Martz the latter. The epitome of the later being the college coach (was it UT??) who ran the epic playfake when trying to run out the clock vs. the #1 team in the country (was it Nebraska) and scored a TD. *That* was playing to win.

I'll agree that Herm is risk-averse; I'm not so sure I agree about Parcells, though. I guess describing risk-averse isn't as easy as it might seem. Parcells has made some wacky calls in his career, which is probably considered risky. But his early Giants teams were extremely conservative.

Do you spend time arguing with people about the "glass is half full/half empty" thing, too?

 

[Reaper]

I really like Herm, but he is clearly off his rocker at this time. He needs to take at least one season off (ala Denny Green), step away from the limelight and refocus on the individual strengths that originally got him the Jets gig.Ever since 'You play to win the games', Herm has begun to mentally crack.

Individual Strengths? Can you help us out here?He worked with defensive backs before he got the Jets Gig and couldn't even coach the Jets DB's UP....His other strength is male Bonding. And I'm sure the player still love him and always will. The fact is - The guy is a very bad coach Still in above his head - lucky to get the Jets gig and then REAL lucky to have a friend in KC to extend his career.....

 

[Franknbeans]

Gotta love Sermon Edwards. Sound bites over strategy.

He's at his best in a press conference. Unfortunately, he's paid to be at his best in meeting rooms and on the sidelines of football fields.

It's not about him.

 

[mhrutkowski]

Not to get engaged in this semantic debate, but I think the classic "Playing not to lose vs. playing to win" scenario is when you have a situation where a team is up by 4-7 point (i.e. >FG).

They are presented with the ball is respectable field position, i.e. their own 30-45.

The clock is in their favor and they know that if they get one first down--only one--the other team is at their mercy and they can take a win to clinch victory.

A coach who is playing not to lose, will run the ball three times in that situation even if he thinks there are plays in his playbook that have greater odds of picking up a first down and winning the game.

A coach playing to win will try a playaction or similar pass play that will increase the likliehood of picking up the first down and winning the game.

Every situation can be broken down into a percentage of winning the game. If it's 0-0 and the teams are even, and there's 15:00 left in the 1st quarter, each team's chances are 50/50.

If it's 10-0 and there's 5:00 left in the 2nd quarter, the winning team has say a 65% chance (just a rough guess).

If a team is up by 5 with the ball on their own 40 and there's 2:00 to go, the team probably has a 90% chance of winning on 1st and 10. If they run for 0 yards, and now there's 1:55 to go, maybe they have an 87% chance to win. If they pass for 7 yards and there's 1:55 to go, maybe they now have a 95% chance of winning. If they pass and it's intercepted, maybe they have a 55% chance.

But every play and every play call slides each team's chances of winning up or down. A coach who is playing not to lose may run the abll three times, but if that increases his team's odds of winning, he's not playing not to lose --> he's playing to win. If running three times decreases his team's chances of winning, he's not playing not to lose --> he's playing to lose.

The terms conservative and aggressive are much more descriptive of what you want here, I think. But there's no such thing as playing not to lose and not playing to win, unless you're kneeling on the ball with 30 seconds left in overtime.

Well, Chase, it's very clear you are literally interpreting the sports aphorism "Playing not to lose." To which, by the very definition of words, you are correct: playing "not to lose" and playing "to win" cannot be diametrically opposed as by their literal defintion they are one and the same.But in sports, let's just say there are coaches who would rather play risk-averse when ahead and run plays statistically & historically with less chance of making a mistake vs. coaches who weigh the risk vs reward and determine to run a risky play if the reward is a likely victory.

Herm & Schotty are the former. Tuna & Martz the latter. The epitome of the later being the college coach (was it UT??) who ran the epic playfake when trying to run out the clock vs. the #1 team in the country (was it Nebraska) and scored a TD. *That* was playing to win.

I'll agree that Herm is risk-averse; I'm not so sure I agree about Parcells, though. I guess describing risk-averse isn't as easy as it might seem. Parcells has made some wacky calls in his career, which is probably considered risky. But his early Giants teams were extremely conservative.

Do you spend time arguing with people about the "glass is half full/half empty" thing, too?

bingo

 

[mhrutkowski]

I really like Herm, but he is clearly off his rocker at this time. He needs to take at least one season off (ala Denny Green), step away from the limelight and refocus on the individual strengths that originally got him the Jets gig.Ever since 'You play to win the games', Herm has begun to mentally crack.

Individual Strengths? Can you help us out here?He worked with defensive backs before he got the Jets Gig and couldn't even coach the Jets DB's UP....His other strength is male Bonding. And I'm sure the player still love him and always will. The fact is - The guy is a very bad coach Still in above his head - lucky to get the Jets gig and then REAL lucky to have a friend in KC to extend his career.....

you got it. players like him because he doesn't work them hard. too bad sometimes that's what you need to do to be prepared for war.his track record in offensive strategy and clock management is nothing to brag about, either. if he was a first year coach, it'd be one thing. however, his lack of improvement (in areas he already should be proficient in) over the years is puzzling.Herm is good for sound bites, BBQ's and not much else.

 

[Chase Stuart]

http://play.rbn.com/?url=nfl/nfl/open/chie...pc_350_91206.rm

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2006/09/12/he...onference__912/

 

[Kevin Ashcraft]

As a KC fan, I love what Herm said, and says. He puts the media in tehir place and uses them when he needs it. The "reporter" asking many of thsoe slanted questions was a high-schooliish lady named Rhonda Moss form 610 Sports here in KC. This lady has been caught listening under the door to Royals GM meeetings, and is the most loathesome media person in the city.

And BTW Herm was right....on many accounts yesterday.

 

[BlueOnion]

Individual Strengths?

In his first first 4 seasons as a head coach, he took over a team and a job that could best be described as a 'rebuilding' process. Here is what he did:35-29 record3 winning seasons out of a possible 43 playoff appearences out of a possible 42-3 playoff recordI am not promoting Herm Edwards as some great coach, but based on my standards, that is a pretty good resume.

 

[The Jacket]

I feel for Chiefs fans. I really do. I hope they realize what they're in for.

Have you followed the Chiefs anytime in the last five years? I mean, followed them at all?They had a nice offense, but the closest they came to postseason success was in fantasy football. It would be hard to accomplish less than the immortal #### Vermeil did in his time here; Edwards would need to compile a jaw-dropping 0-for-1 playoff record or worse.

 

[jcjets]

Thank gor this guy is out of NY. Did I mention that the NY Jets also got a draft pick from KC to take him off our hands.

Why people like this guy as a NFL coach is beyond me.

 

[One]

I feel for Chiefs fans. I really do. I hope they realize what they're in for.

Have you followed the Chiefs anytime in the last five years? I mean, followed them at all?They had a nice offense, but the closest they came to postseason success was in fantasy football. It would be hard to accomplish less than the immortal #### Vermeil did in his time here; Edwards would need to compile a jaw-dropping 0-for-1 playoff record or worse.

 

[BlueOnion]

I feel for Chiefs fans. I really do. I hope they realize what they're in for.

, because I feel for Jets fans. Herm Edwards was the only Jets coach to take their team to the playoffs 3 times. Back to the Richie Kotite and Bruce Coslets era.

 

[Ghost Rider]

As a Broncos fan, I was ecstatic when the hated Chiefs announced that Herman Edwards was their new coach. I'll leave it at that.

Individual Strengths?

In his first first 4 seasons as a head coach, he took over a team and a job that could best be described as a 'rebuilding' process. Here is what he did:35-29 record3 winning seasons out of a possible 43 playoff appearences out of a possible 42-3 playoff recordI am not promoting Herm Edwards as some great coach, but based on my standards, that is a pretty good resume.

Rebuilding? In the four seasons before Edwards was the Jets coach, the Jets record was 38-26 (3 games better than Edwards' first 4 seasons in NY). And the only non above-.500 season of those was '99, and that was only because injuries killed the Jets the first half of that season.The 3 playoff appearances were kind of misleading, as they won the division in '02 with a record of 9-7. That speaks more to how mediocre the AFC East was that season. They went 9-7 in two of the four years before Edwards was there, and did not make the playoffs either time. Dave Wannstedt also has a 2-3 playoff record. And remember that Edwards' record as the Jets coach was ultimately 39-41.

 

[Reaper]

I feel for Chiefs fans. I really do. I hope they realize what they're in for.

, because I feel for Jets fans. Herm Edwards was the only Jets coach to take their team to the playoffs 3 times. Back to the Richie Kotite and Bruce Coslets era.

Wasn't Damon Huard like 6-0 as a starter at one point?There's a difference sometimes in results (Stats) and what you actually see with your own eyes... We asked in this thread for Positive Traits and you gave his stats. I think bwteen that and the fact that Herm is a 100% genuine, caring, Great guy is All we could point to right now and you really can't say much at all about him as a coach, as a game planner, as a guy who develops skills, a guy who gets teams ready to play a season etc etcThe Jets were not a rebuild team as Herm and Bradway managed them, they locked into old vets and had FOUR 1st rounders just added to the team.... They had a team built and taught to win by Parcells and they kept that team afloat for a few years and stayed competitive. If you feel Herm is a coach that can take a team over the hump and to a Super Bowl Victory, then Fine. I don't.I think Herm CAN succeed on a team with great Coordinators who do the dirty work, as well as a guy who can manage the game while Herm gives the speeches and gets guys motivated. KC looked like the best opportunity for that with an offense in place but, it's not a good start.

 

[One]

I don't give a DAMN how KC does this season.

I only care about 3 things:

1. LJ is overworked all season

2. LJ does not go down hurt

3. LJ produces between weeks 14-16

Is Herm good for that? I think so.

Next week Denver will see a LOT of Larry Johnson... Win or lose so I'm not worried.

Cause damn... my team sure does blow.

(Oakland Raiders homer & LJ owner x2)

...sorry, you can go back to talking about Herm now

 

[BlueOnion]

I feel for Chiefs fans. I really do. I hope they realize what they're in for.

, because I feel for Jets fans. Herm Edwards was the only Jets coach to take their team to the playoffs 3 times. Back to the Richie Kotite and Bruce Coslets era.

Wasn't Damon Huard like 6-0 as a starter at one point?There's a difference sometimes in results (Stats) and what you actually see with your own eyes... We asked in this thread for Positive Traits and you gave his stats. I think bwteen that and the fact that Herm is a 100% genuine, caring, Great guy is All we could point to right now and you really can't say much at all about him as a coach, as a game planner, as a guy who develops skills, a guy who gets teams ready to play a season etc etcThe Jets were not a rebuild team as Herm and Bradway managed them, they locked into old vets and had FOUR 1st rounders just added to the team.... They had a team built and taught to win by Parcells and they kept that team afloat for a few years and stayed competitive. If you feel Herm is a coach that can take a team over the hump and to a Super Bowl Victory, then Fine. I don't.I think Herm CAN succeed on a team with great Coordinators who do the dirty work, as well as a guy who can manage the game while Herm gives the speeches and gets guys motivated. KC looked like the best opportunity for that with an offense in place but, it's not a good start.

I said Herm was a good coach based on his first four seasons as a head coach. He made the playoffs 3 times and went 2-3. You stated Herm was a bad coach. I can think of a few other coaches (Kotite, Coslet et al) who I would actually consider bad.For whatever reason, you want to attack Herm Edwards. I could not care less.

 

[mhrutkowski]

I feel for Chiefs fans. I really do. I hope they realize what they're in for.

, because I feel for Jets fans. Herm Edwards was the only Jets coach to take their team to the playoffs 3 times. Back to the Richie Kotite and Bruce Coslets era.

Wasn't Damon Huard like 6-0 as a starter at one point?There's a difference sometimes in results (Stats) and what you actually see with your own eyes... We asked in this thread for Positive Traits and you gave his stats. I think bwteen that and the fact that Herm is a 100% genuine, caring, Great guy is All we could point to right now and you really can't say much at all about him as a coach, as a game planner, as a guy who develops skills, a guy who gets teams ready to play a season etc etcThe Jets were not a rebuild team as Herm and Bradway managed them, they locked into old vets and had FOUR 1st rounders just added to the team.... They had a team built and taught to win by Parcells and they kept that team afloat for a few years and stayed competitive. If you feel Herm is a coach that can take a team over the hump and to a Super Bowl Victory, then Fine. I don't.I think Herm CAN succeed on a team with great Coordinators who do the dirty work, as well as a guy who can manage the game while Herm gives the speeches and gets guys motivated. KC looked like the best opportunity for that with an offense in place but, it's not a good start.

I said Herm was a good coach based on his first four seasons as a head coach. He made the playoffs 3 times and went 2-3. You stated Herm was a bad coach. I can think of a few other coaches (Kotite, Coslet et al) who I would actually consider bad.For whatever reason, you want to attack Herm Edwards. I could not care less.

He's not attacking him, he's showing why Herm's resume isn't indicative of his coaching ability.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I said Herm was a good coach based on his first four seasons as a head coach. He made the playoffs 3 times and went 2-3. You stated Herm was a bad coach. I can think of a few other coaches (Kotite, Coslet et al) who I would actually consider bad.

Did you know that Rich Kotite's best season as an NFL coach (11-5 with the Eagles) is better than the Edwards' best season as an NFL coach (10-6 with the Jets)?Did you also know that Kotite has a better playoff W/L percentage than Edwards does?Am I saying Kotite is better than Edwards? Not necessarily.

 

[BlueOnion]

I feel for Chiefs fans. I really do. I hope they realize what they're in for.

, because I feel for Jets fans. Herm Edwards was the only Jets coach to take their team to the playoffs 3 times. Back to the Richie Kotite and Bruce Coslets era.

Wasn't Damon Huard like 6-0 as a starter at one point?There's a difference sometimes in results (Stats) and what you actually see with your own eyes... We asked in this thread for Positive Traits and you gave his stats. I think bwteen that and the fact that Herm is a 100% genuine, caring, Great guy is All we could point to right now and you really can't say much at all about him as a coach, as a game planner, as a guy who develops skills, a guy who gets teams ready to play a season etc etcThe Jets were not a rebuild team as Herm and Bradway managed them, they locked into old vets and had FOUR 1st rounders just added to the team.... They had a team built and taught to win by Parcells and they kept that team afloat for a few years and stayed competitive. If you feel Herm is a coach that can take a team over the hump and to a Super Bowl Victory, then Fine. I don't.I think Herm CAN succeed on a team with great Coordinators who do the dirty work, as well as a guy who can manage the game while Herm gives the speeches and gets guys motivated. KC looked like the best opportunity for that with an offense in place but, it's not a good start.

I said Herm was a good coach based on his first four seasons as a head coach. He made the playoffs 3 times and went 2-3. You stated Herm was a bad coach. I can think of a few other coaches (Kotite, Coslet et al) who I would actually consider bad.For whatever reason, you want to attack Herm Edwards. I could not care less.

He's not attacking him, he's showing why Herm's resume isn't indicative of his coaching ability.

I had to go back and reread some of the old previous posts since others have stepped up on behave of mhrutkowski. However, it is still beyond my rational that a 'bad' coach can make the playoffs 3 out of 5 times he has been a head coach and go 2-3 in the playoffs.Again, if the argument was being made that Herm Edwards is a good coach who will never win a Super Bowl, I can live with that. But the argument being made is Herm Edwards is a bad coach, which I feel is grossly inaccurate.

 

[Klecko HOF]

Did any of you who are raggin on Herm (I'm not a huge fan myself...) actually watch the Chiefs game. I mean, quite a few things went wrong, but none of them can really be pinned on Herm.The offesnive play calling with Green in there really wasn't any different than it ever was. It was mistakes that led to what you saw, along with Jordan Black starting to really suck at pass blocking in the 2nd Q...he was starting for an injured K.Sampson...Black is a Guard, not a Tackle. There were also 2 offensive PI's on Samie Parker, one away from the play, both on passes that would have been first downs. A false start right after one of those led to a bad passing down, which Green got to Parker...but Parker tipped it up in the air, and Cincy intercepted and then scored a TD on their drive.They were running for chunks of yardage with LJ, I think he was 10/44 before things got ugly. Green was completing passes to Gonzo, Kennison, Parker, Hall... They ran a reverse to start the game, even ran a fake punt for a first down. The only real questionable play call before Green got hurt was the 3rd and 5 in the RZ. But Solari screwed it up because he thought it was 2nd down...not Herm. If you want to rag on Herm, that's fine. But the offense was running the same plays as always until Green went down. And if it weren't for numerous mistakes by players, they'd have been fine. The problem was execution, and that doesn't even all lie with the O-line. And Herm certainly didn't have anything to do with it. The offense made mistakes, that's why they didn't score more. It wasn't all Black, wasn't Turley, wasn't Herm... It was fumbles, penalties, and turnovers. Hell, even Huard led a scoring drive when he was able to hold onto the ball, and he did make some pretty decent passes once he got a bit more comfortable back there.I think that's what I dislike about this board more than anything else. Everyone overreacts, and half of you probably have no clue what exactly really went on.

I'm your huckleberry Jets fans have seen this before; it is no surprise to us. I was an ardent Herm supporter, but grew tired of having the same result, year after year.I did watch the game. Actually, I switched back and forth between the Jets-Titans game and KC-Cincy as I had a huge curiosity.I was impressed with how KC looked early on. LJ ran the ball like a madman, but then, the all too familiar signs of Herm Edwards coaching seeped in.The miscommunication was brutal and inexcusable, but yes, we've seen this before. We've seen the Jets go into a shell and slam Curtis Martin into eight man fronts three consecutive times. We've seen the draw plays on 3rd and 8. We've also seen the defense jump on our plays, practically knowing what would be called before it's even run. The predictablility is so typical of a Herm Edwards team. Sure, it didn't happen early on, but it reared its' ugly head as the game settled. Herm is the head coach and his OC should be aware of what down it is. Does the OC check with the HC to see what play he wants called? See, you could blame the assistant coaches, but when does Herm get any blame? What exactly does he do? The team look unprepared and was blasted right off the field, the same way the Jets were last season when they showed up at Arrowhead.What you will realize is that Herm has no experience as a coordinator at any level and is at the complete mercy of his coordinators to figure things out. He ran through coordinators like a hot knife through butter in NY, throwing Paqul Hackett and Ted Cotrell under the bus after years of ineptness. We kept hearing how Herm would have things changed, how he needed his type of coordinators at first, then his type of players, blah blah blah. It was always an excuse. Herm could change nothing. He could not take over the playcalling the way Mike Sherman did in Green Bay. It is Herm's responsibility to have his team prepared for battle, especially a divisional rival, but tell me, did the Chiefs look prepared? In fact, the Jets have a track record of slow starts, easy camps, and mind numbing blunders with clock management. To have it happen in one game can be chalked up as one incident, but Herm has done this for five years in NY and has started it again in KC.Don't worry. In time you will see for yourself, just as when Philly fans tried to warn us about Rich Kotite.

 

[shadow2k]

MISCOMMUNICATION THAT is Herm's track record and an apparent problem in game 1.

Miscommunication was not the problem, sorry. Anyone who watched the game could tell you that.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Klecko, you're really sounding biased here. Sure the Jets have had a history of poor starts, but also great finishes. Think that might have something to do with an easy training camp?

Paul Hackett called the plays for four years with the Jets, and the KC OC called the plays on Sunday. Any 3rd and 8 draws in either game don't have much, if anything, to do with Herm Edwards.

 

[shadow2k]

Klecko, you're really sounding biased here. Sure the Jets have had a history of poor starts, but also great finishes. Think that might have something to do with an easy training camp?

Paul Hackett called the plays for four years with the Jets, and the KC OC called the plays on Sunday. Any 3rd and 8 draws in either game don't have much, if anything, to do with Herm Edwards.

Yeah, Hackett called plays for years with the Chiefs too back in the 90's. Kind of odd though, we actual went to the playoffs with him as well, but the fans hated him.

 

[Klecko HOF]

Klecko, you're really sounding biased here. Sure the Jets have had a history of poor starts, but also great finishes. Think that might have something to do with an easy training camp?Paul Hackett called the plays for four years with the Jets, and the KC OC called the plays on Sunday. Any 3rd and 8 draws in either game don't have much, if anything, to do with Herm Edwards.

Biased? Stu, come on. Ok, maybe my years of viewing the Jets has made me sound a bit negative, to which I agree. I do admit that Herm did some good things here, but great finishes?Of the years "Herm" guided the Jets into the playoffs, they backed in each time.Yes, backed in. In 01, the Jets had to fly cross country and beat Oakland, just for the thrill of having to fly cross country once again and play them the following week. NY did a good job in hanging on and beating them(John Hall field goal), but everyone forgets that NY would not have been in that position had they not blown a very winnable game against a bad Buffalo Bills team at home. Yes, the same game in which Hackett called a dumpoff pass on fourth and goal.Remember the 02 season? Started out terrible, performed miracle work coming back and yet, lost a very winnable game again, on the road, in Urbana-Champagne, where Chicago only won 3 games prior. NY then had to rely on New England to bail them out, and yes, they did. Had Dave Wannstach not had a meltdown and Miami not blown a big ### fourth quarter lead, the Jets would have been out.03 was brutal, so I'll leave that alone.Let's go to 04, when NY starts out hot, for a change, then lost three out of the last four and again, only a great comeback by Pittsburgh, against a Buffalo team that had everything to play for, prevented NY from sitting home. NY had a must win game at St. Louis and lost.I'll give Herm credit for what he did in NY, but had he better time management skills, and a better grip on personnel matters, maybe the Jets would have been a better team. No, instead they had to suffer with changes from Hackett's WCO to Heimerdinger's, and signing a coach in Cotrell who used a 3-4, to run a 4-3 Cover 2.Want a great example of Herm making a football decision that hurt the team? Look no further than Pittsburgh, in the Divisional, when he had Chad take a knee, losing several much needed yards, forcing Doug Brien to take a longer field goal.Sounds petty, eh? Well, you know what? In that crucial a situation, where every yard counts, and statistically, no opposing team had ever hit a field goal longer than 46 yards, Herm had Curtis Martin and Lamont Jordan. He could have had them plunge forward and gotten a few yards. This is not to kill Herm. I like the man, but as a coach, he leaves much to be desired.

 

[Klecko HOF]

Klecko, you're really sounding biased here. Sure the Jets have had a history of poor starts, but also great finishes. Think that might have something to do with an easy training camp?Paul Hackett called the plays for four years with the Jets, and the KC OC called the plays on Sunday. Any 3rd and 8 draws in either game don't have much, if anything, to do with Herm Edwards.

So again, Herm gets no grief here?Obviously, Herm had no issues with the plays, as he agreed with them. That in itself is bad. Herm is like many coaches, an administrator, yet this administration looks very similar in what he ran in NY.It's one game, but eerily similar to what I, and many other Jets fans witnessed for years in NY.

 

[shadow2k]

So again, Herm gets no grief here?Obviously, Herm had no issues with the plays, as he agreed with them. That in itself is bad. Herm is like many coaches, an administrator, yet this administration looks very similar in what he ran in NY.It's one game, but eerily similar to what I, and many other Jets fans witnessed for years in NY.

There was no issue with the plays. There was one single play that got called into question, the 3rd and 5 running play Solari called because he thought it was 2nd down. And Herm didn't agree with that call btw, so he didn't agree with all of them obviously. But if you think Saunders never ran it in similar situations and failed to convert over the past five years, you'd be mistaken. He just never caught any grief over it, because there wasn't a bunch of bitter Jets fans trying to get their shots in.There were turnover issues, and penalty issues. The play calling really wasn't any different than it's ever been. Outside of the fumbles, the INT, and the two offensive PI calls...there was Jordan Black at RT, who is really a G, and was starting for the injured Sampson who was out with a hamstring issue and hadn't practiced enough to play.How is that Herm's fault again?

 

[Rovers]

I saw what Klecko saw. Edwards SWORE he would never jepordize a player's career, yet, he put Pennington BACK into the same game agter the SECOND shoulder injury. He kept playing Martin, and later finally admitted he should not have "Played a guy running on torn knee ligaments." He had a 35 year old center, and no backup. When Mawae went down, he had to shuffle the entire O line.... remember all the fumbled snap exchanges? Why he wasn't given any heat for that major screw up remains a mystery.... the press just loved the guy.

I too supported Edwards until last year. I came to realize he was a liar and a bad HC who throws people under the bus if would take some heat off of him. I think the epitomy of Edwards stay in NY was that he was smart enough to know he was too stupid to manage the clock, so he got D Curl to do that... but he was just as mathematically challenged as Edwards was.

Time will tell, but the early reports say the the Chiefs, VERY hard to beat at Arrowhead lost the home opener. I expect much more of the same kind of failures for the rest of the year. Too bad, I always liked KC all the way back to Supe IV.

 

[mhrutkowski]

I saw what Klecko saw. Edwards SWORE he would never jepordize a player's career, yet, he put Pennington BACK into the same game agter the SECOND shoulder injury. He kept playing Martin, and later finally admitted he should not have "Played a guy running on torn knee ligaments." He had a 35 year old center, and no backup. When Mawae went down, he had to shuffle the entire O line.... remember all the fumbled snap exchanges? Why he wasn't given any heat for that major screw up remains a mystery.... the press just loved the guy.I too supported Edwards until last year. I came to realize he was a liar and a bad HC who throws people under the bus if would take some heat off of him. I think the epitomy of Edwards stay in NY was that he was smart enough to know he was too stupid to manage the clock, so he got D Curl to do that... but he was just as mathematically challenged as Edwards was. Time will tell, but the early reports say the the Chiefs, VERY hard to beat at Arrowhead lost the home opener. I expect much more of the same kind of failures for the rest of the year. Too bad, I always liked KC all the way back to Supe IV.

Herm's no liar!"Lamont will split carries with Curtis this year." (circa 2002-2004)Oh wait...

 

[shadow2k]

I saw what Klecko saw. Edwards SWORE he would never jepordize a player's career, yet, he put Pennington BACK into the same game agter the SECOND shoulder injury. He kept playing Martin, and later finally admitted he should not have "Played a guy running on torn knee ligaments." He had a 35 year old center, and no backup. When Mawae went down, he had to shuffle the entire O line.... remember all the fumbled snap exchanges? Why he wasn't given any heat for that major screw up remains a mystery.... the press just loved the guy.I too supported Edwards until last year. I came to realize he was a liar and a bad HC who throws people under the bus if would take some heat off of him. I think the epitomy of Edwards stay in NY was that he was smart enough to know he was too stupid to manage the clock, so he got D Curl to do that... but he was just as mathematically challenged as Edwards was. Time will tell, but the early reports say the the Chiefs, VERY hard to beat at Arrowhead lost the home opener. I expect much more of the same kind of failures for the rest of the year. Too bad, I always liked KC all the way back to Supe IV.

Here's the real question though...what does any of that stuff have to do with the way the Chiefs played on Sunday? I mean, how does Pennington's or Martin's past injury history and whether Herm played them have anything at all to do with Sunday's game? If you want to rant, that's fine...but just remember that what you're whining about has nothing to do with anything that's happened this year.

 

[mhrutkowski]

I saw what Klecko saw. Edwards SWORE he would never jepordize a player's career, yet, he put Pennington BACK into the same game agter the SECOND shoulder injury. He kept playing Martin, and later finally admitted he should not have "Played a guy running on torn knee ligaments." He had a 35 year old center, and no backup. When Mawae went down, he had to shuffle the entire O line.... remember all the fumbled snap exchanges? Why he wasn't given any heat for that major screw up remains a mystery.... the press just loved the guy.I too supported Edwards until last year. I came to realize he was a liar and a bad HC who throws people under the bus if would take some heat off of him. I think the epitomy of Edwards stay in NY was that he was smart enough to know he was too stupid to manage the clock, so he got D Curl to do that... but he was just as mathematically challenged as Edwards was. Time will tell, but the early reports say the the Chiefs, VERY hard to beat at Arrowhead lost the home opener. I expect much more of the same kind of failures for the rest of the year. Too bad, I always liked KC all the way back to Supe IV.

Here's the real question though...what does any of that stuff have to do with the way the Chiefs played on Sunday? I mean, how does Pennington's or Martin's past injury history and whether Herm played them have anything at all to do with Sunday's game? If you want to rant, that's fine...but just remember that what you're whining about has nothing to do with anything that's happened this year.

I didn't watch KC last week so I cannot comment. However, I'd be willing to bet at the end of the year you will not be satisfied with his performance.

 

[The Jacket]

(1.) So many Jets fans claim to have watched the Chiefs on Sunday, yet all make glaring errors in judgement regarding how the game went. Here's a hint: the loss wasn't on Edwards. It was on the absolutely horrific pass protection that ultimately got KC's starting quarterback injured. Bill Walsh doesn't coach that team to a win last Sunday. Not unless he brings a couple of All-Pro tackles with him, anyway.

(2.) It's funny how injuries are a perfectly valid excuse for one of the Jets' sub-.500 seasons pre-Herm, yet it's not fair to cut Herm any slack because he only once had a starting quarterback for 16 games.

Coaching's unbelievably overrated. Jets fans might like to think that last year's unit had a lot more talent than a 4-12 record, but they didn't. Who was your quarterback come December anyway? Brooks Bollinger? Vinny still?

Replace Pennington last Sunday with one of the scrubs that started for Edwards last year and you're staring 0-1 in the face. I mean, it took an Offensive Player of the Week performance from a healthy Chad Pennington and a failed 4th down from inside the redzone for the Jets to sneak past the lowly Titans. Not to mention the additional talent New York acquired through the draft and the rare event that is Lav Coles showing up and playing.

 

[Traders2001]

Clearly Chase had to put up with Sermon coaching the Jets for too long. He's getting loopy too.

No, has to be HAS to be.

Maybe you can help me out here with an example. Can you explain what would be a coaching decision that's playing not to lose but is also not playing to win?

Chase, it is a SAYING. To take the term absolutely literally is to lose all meaning of the phrase itself!Good god man, please say you are fishing, because we arent saying there is TECHNICALLY a difference between not winning and losing.

If you want an example, I can try and think and come up with many but am too tired and lazy. The fact is, when a team, mentally, is trying not to lose rather than trying to win - and in terms of a MENTAL STATE and game approach, there is a very REAL and meaningful difference between the two - bad things often happen. When a team becomes tentative, timid, overly defensive, when it is doing what it can to "hold off" the other team as opposed to just "beat them" then sometimes games shift because of the "try not to lose" mentality.

Ugh, I cant believe I actually explained that. Please tell me Im hooked.

Excellent description Koya. I'll add in my own example. I grew up a Saints fan (thru the good and the bad). Back when Mora was the coach and they had 4 all pro linebackers I would die every time they played those stinking 49ers. Many a game they had won but he went conservative and never put them away. Always left them just a little too close. Then at the end Montana would do his magic and pull it out. The Saints should have won their share of those games. He just never trusted the offense to win it. Chase can call it what he wants but I call it playing not to lose. He did not have the faith in his offense to finish the other team off. he put too much pressure on his defense to hold off a great offensive team.

It sounds to me like you're describing someone that's playing to lose; quite the opposite of someone that's playing not to lose. Giving that 49ers team the ball with a chance to win sure doesn't sound like a formula for not losing to me.

The act of "trying not to lose" is not the same (and therefore does not have the same result as) "trying to win"They are, simply put, different.

Very, different.

 

[joffer]

(1.) So many Jets fans claim to have watched the Chiefs on Sunday, yet all make glaring errors in judgement regarding how the game went. Here's a hint: the loss wasn't on Edwards. It was on the absolutely horrific pass protection that ultimately got KC's starting quarterback injured. Bill Walsh doesn't coach that team to a win last Sunday. Not unless he brings a couple of All-Pro tackles with him, anyway.

much easier just to bash a guy they don't like blindly

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

"YOU PLAY NOT TO LOSE THE GAME"

(corrected)

(re-corrected)

In the NFL, there's virtually zero difference between winning a game and not losing a game. An extremely small percentage of games end in ties.

It's not really a debatable point. Every single play call increases your chance of winning (and simultaneously decreases your chance of losing by the same amount) or chance of losing (and simultaneously decreasing your chance of winning by the same amount). The amount of games that end up in ties is neglible, especially when factoring in regulation play-calling.

You are jk, yes chase? I dont think he was talking about ties. Ya know, the term "playing not to lose" vs. "playing to win" - the psychology of becoming defensive, not offensive minded (or just overly or exclusively defensive). That's why the popcorn.Or am I the one not getting a joke here?

There's no difference between playing not to lose vs. playing to win. If in a certain situation, the playcalling is not designed to win, then by definition it's designed to lose. The two terms are mirror images of each other. It's not (generally) possible to call a play that's playing not to lose that's not simultaneous playing to win.(This is, once again, excluding ties.)

WOW.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

This is an example of Chase trying to be like Maurile but not doing well in the process.

 

[cosmonaut]

Clearly Chase had to put up with Sermon coaching the Jets for too long. He's getting loopy too.

No, has to be HAS to be.

Maybe you can help me out here with an example. Can you explain what would be a coaching decision that's playing not to lose but is also not playing to win?

And the Lions win the toss."We'll take the wind"

 

[Rovers]

(1.) So many Jets fans claim to have watched the Chiefs on Sunday, yet all make glaring errors in judgement regarding how the game went. Here's a hint: the loss wasn't on Edwards. It was on the absolutely horrific pass protection that ultimately got KC's starting quarterback injured. Bill Walsh doesn't coach that team to a win last Sunday. Not unless he brings a couple of All-Pro tackles with him, anyway.(2.) It's funny how injuries are a perfectly valid excuse for one of the Jets' sub-.500 seasons pre-Herm, yet it's not fair to cut Herm any slack because he only once had a starting quarterback for 16 games.Coaching's unbelievably overrated. Jets fans might like to think that last year's unit had a lot more talent than a 4-12 record, but they didn't. Who was your quarterback come December anyway? Brooks Bollinger? Vinny still? Replace Pennington last Sunday with one of the scrubs that started for Edwards last year and you're staring 0-1 in the face. I mean, it took an Offensive Player of the Week performance from a healthy Chad Pennington and a failed 4th down from inside the redzone for the Jets to sneak past the lowly Titans. Not to mention the additional talent New York acquired through the draft and the rare event that is Lav Coles showing up and playing.

OK.... let's see how it goes then... and let Edward's record in KC di the talking for him. But... coaching over rated? You really didn't mean that did you? LOL.

 

[The Jacket]

OK.... let's see how it goes then... and let Edward's record in KC di the talking for him.

That'd be foolish, unless you're actually not naive enough to think that the Chiefs should be competing for a Super Bowl over the next couple of seasons. It would've been interesting to see what he could've done with this team over the past few seasons, but now, the window is more shut than it has been in recent memory. People will skim the surface and say, "well, he's no #### Vermeil", when, in reality, it's the team that's got a lot worse - not the coaching.

But... coaching over rated? You really didn't mean that did you? LOL.

In general, from all that I hear, see and read, it is. Going by some of the hyperbole I read and hear from Jets fans, it absolutely is. As if the great Eric Mangini would've coached last year's horrible Jets team to a playoff berth. That team was a train wreck, and, yes, the focus on coaching was much too much.

 

[Klecko HOF]

OK.... let's see how it goes then... and let Edward's record in KC di the talking for him.

That'd be foolish, unless you're actually not naive enough to think that the Chiefs should be competing for a Super Bowl over the next couple of seasons. It would've been interesting to see what he could've done with this team over the past few seasons, but now, the window is more shut than it has been in recent memory. People will skim the surface and say, "well, he's no #### Vermeil", when, in reality, it's the team that's got a lot worse - not the coaching.

But... coaching over rated? You really didn't mean that did you? LOL.

In general, from all that I hear, see and read, it is. Going by some of the hyperbole I read and hear from Jets fans, it absolutely is. As if the great Eric Mangini would've coached last year's horrible Jets team to a playoff berth. That team was a train wreck, and, yes, the focus on coaching was much too much.

Completely disagree, Jacket.Coaching may be overrated in some sports, particularly baseball, but in football, you can never discount the difference or effect a good or bad coach can have on a team.Herm has a track record in NY of placing square pegs in round holes, whether it be in the form of placing DE Shaun Ellis in a DT role, hiring a WCO coordinator to run an offense his starting QB could not run, or by hiring a 3-4 DC to run a 4-3 Cover 2.Herm has had ample amounts of opportunity to succeed in NY, but failed. He failed to prepare his team or account for injuries. He played Chad Pennington far too much in a preseason game and had him playing with second string linemen and a rookie running back, who blew a blocking assignment and elft him exposed.Sure, you'll pass that off on the coordinator, but these are things that most good HC would not let happen. Herm did. Speaking of Mangini, who knows what would've happened with last years team. Would he have had the same personnel? Would he have made the same systems in place? Would he have played Chad Pennington the final few weeks of the 04 season, instead of having him put off surgery? Would Mangini have let Chad start the season when it was obvious that he was not ready? See, Herm Edwards did. Instead of sitting down his franchise QB, he played him the last two months of the season, while Chad was injured. Sure, the player deserves blame for gutting it out and risking things, but it is the coach's responsibility to have sat down the player and not have him place further risk to himself. He should have also had a more capable backup, instead of a fossil and a drug addict to depend on.Your arguing apples and oranges. You will find out soon enough. Herm is not proactive in avoiding problems, he waits for them to happen, then tries to fix them after it's far too late. Did Herm cost you the game outright, on Sunday? No, maybe not, but his shortcomings as a coach will become more and more apparent as the season moves on.I wish you guys well. I like KC and have always resepcted their organization. I fear, however, that I will be right. I hope I am not and that Herm proves me wrong and improves as a coach, but his track record says otherwise.