Good thing Eric Wedge got fired (1 Viewer)

[Raider Nation]

One of his recent stud pitchers is starting game 1 of a playoff series for the Phillies.

Another of his recent stud pitchers is starting game 1 of a playoff series for the Yankees.

His recent stud catcher is about to begin a playoff series in a Red Sox uniform.

This guy has no clue how to manage.

 

[TitusIII]

A good to excellent manager may win an extra game or two for a team, a bad one may lose the same amount. I'm not saying managers are worthless in the grand scheme of things, but it's funny how often they are scapegoated. It's always the talent, or lack of it...and the GM's are the one's who should be tossed aside quickly...imo

 

[Eephus]

He had seven years to get it done

 

[Limp Ditka]

One of his recent stud pitchers is starting game 1 of a playoff series for the Phillies.Another of his recent stud pitchers is starting game 1 of a playoff series for the Yankees.His recent stud catcher is about to begin a playoff series in a Red Sox uniform.This guy has no clue how to manage.

What was their record before they traded 1 & 3?

 

[RnR]

A good to excellent manager may win an extra game or two for a team, a bad one may lose the same amount.

This is very, very wrong.

 

[ytsejam]

A good to excellent manager may win an extra game or two for a team, a bad one may lose the same amount.

This is very, very wrong.

Actually, it isn't. 1 game might be a bit of a understatement, but it's a small effect. Baseball Prospectus has studied this and come to the same conclusion.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

A good to excellent manager may win an extra game or two for a team, a bad one may lose the same amount.

This is very, very wrong.

Actually, it isn't. 1 game might be a bit of a understatement, but it's a small effect. Baseball Prospectus has studied this and come to the same conclusion.

Link? I'd like to read that. I don't think a manager makes as much difference as most fans think, but I think it can be a ten game swing in some cases. Mike Scioscia is a good example IMO.

 

[ytsejam]

A good to excellent manager may win an extra game or two for a team, a bad one may lose the same amount.

This is very, very wrong.

Actually, it isn't. 1 game might be a bit of a understatement, but it's a small effect. Baseball Prospectus has studied this and come to the same conclusion.

Link? I'd like to read that. I don't think a manager makes as much difference as most fans think, but I think it can be a ten game swing in some cases. Mike Scioscia is a good example IMO.

I dunno if it's online:http://www.amazon.com/Baseball-Between-Num...t/dp/0465005969

"What if Rickey Henderson had Pete Incaviglia's legs?" is also a great chapter.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

A good to excellent manager may win an extra game or two for a team, a bad one may lose the same amount.

This is very, very wrong.

Actually, it isn't. 1 game might be a bit of a understatement, but it's a small effect. Baseball Prospectus has studied this and come to the same conclusion.

Link? I'd like to read that. I don't think a manager makes as much difference as most fans think, but I think it can be a ten game swing in some cases. Mike Scioscia is a good example IMO.

I dunno if it's online:http://www.amazon.com/Baseball-Between-Num...t/dp/0465005969

"What if Rickey Henderson had Pete Incaviglia's legs?" is also a great chapter.

Hey thanks. I've been meaning to read that book, I'm gonna order it now.

 

[RnR]

A good to excellent manager may win an extra game or two for a team, a bad one may lose the same amount.

This is very, very wrong.

Actually, it isn't. 1 game might be a bit of a understatement, but it's a small effect. Baseball Prospectus has studied this and come to the same conclusion.

I'm as much of a stat head as the next guy, but I'd love to see how they try to quantify this. There are some things in sports that don't fit on a stat sheet. When this type of discussion starts, you can definitely tell who has actually played/coached, and who has read Bill James and likes to play strat-o-matic. Baseball, in particular, is a very psychological game with a lot of ebb and flow throughout a grind of a season. The next thing you'll be trying to tell me is that Dave Duncan hasn't made any difference in the win column for the Cardinals as a pitching coach. It's no accident that guys like Joel Pineiro and Kyle Lohse suddenly figured out how to be consistent major league starters in St. Louis.Good managers/coaches go beyond deciding when to hit-and-run and when to call on the lefty specialist.

 

[ytsejam]

Skimming through the chapter ("Is Joe Torre a HOF'er?") now. A quick summary:

-Briefly details Torre being a journeyman manager, and inheriting an awfully good situation in NY and winning a WS. Torre's win% before NY was sub-.500, as many know.

-Notes strict limits on baseball strategy (e.g. nobody hits Albert Pujols 8th).

-Using Win Expectancy framework, three major areas of manager influence (intentional walks, sacrifices, stolen base attempts) have been utilized to increase win expectation six times IN THE LAST THIRTY THREE YEARS. Worst season ever was Roger Craig, who cost the Giants 5.93 wins in 87. Best is **** Williams, who netted SD .63 extra wins in 1983.

-It's been statistically proven that no manager can out-perform their expected record based on runs scored/runs allowed.

-Not enough info. (yet) to analyze manager performance based on playing-time dist. Although I personally think Torre, venerated as he is, didn't maximize his offense by playing Kemp so low in the order for most of 2009. This seems utterly obvious to me.

-Zero correlation between hitter performance and manager (studying hitting coaches would be interesting, and, I would guess, would yield a result. Same for pitchers).

-Conclusion is that it's unclear where, and how much, influence managers have.

 

[Eephus]

Skimming through the chapter ("Is Joe Torre a HOF'er?") now. A quick summary:-Briefly details Torre being a journeyman manager, and inheriting an awfully good situation in NY and winning a WS. Torre's win% before NY was sub-.500, as many know.-Notes strict limits on baseball strategy (e.g. nobody hits Albert Pujols 8th).-Using Win Expectancy framework, three major areas of manager influence (intentional walks, sacrifices, stolen base attempts) have been utilized to increase win expectation six times IN THE LAST THIRTY THREE YEARS. Worst season ever was Roger Craig, who cost the Giants 5.93 wins in 87. Best is **** Williams, who netted SD .63 extra wins in 1983.-It's been statistically proven that no manager can out-perform their expected record based on runs scored/runs allowed.-Not enough info. (yet) to analyze manager performance based on playing-time dist. Although I personally think Torre, venerated as he is, didn't maximize his offense by playing Kemp so low in the order for most of 2009. This seems utterly obvious to me.-Zero correlation between hitter performance and manager (studying hitting coaches would be interesting, and, I would guess, would yield a result. Same for pitchers).-Conclusion is that it's unclear where, and how much, influence managers have.

On the field decisions of a manager can be analyzed and criticized ad infinitum, but the abilities needed to manage 25 men from April to September are a lot harder to quantify. While there are daily decisions in the game of baseball, the vast majority of them are no brainers. It takes a very different skillset to motivate a team, massage egos through slumps, minimize impact of clubhouse lawyers, etc.Torre has generally been successful in this regard, as well as maintaining positive media relationships in very hard markets. **** Williams is a Hall of Famer but was a prickly clubhouse presence who had success but eventually wore out his welcome in several managerial stints. Roger Craig was a positive father figure providing encouragement and splitter lessons for the young 87 Giants. 5.93 negative wins in the Win Expectancy Framework notwithstanding, Craig was a good would have been match for the ballclub he had that year. **** Williams might have done a better job of field management but he would have had to deal with a clubhouse containing Hac-man Leonard and, Kevin Mitchell. It's impossible to separate the two just by looking at a stat line twenty years after the event.

 

[Michael Brown]

There was a debate on Mike and the Mad Dog about 5-7 years ago or so, where they were discussing whether Tony LaRussa would've won 4 rings with the Yankees, as Torre did. The general consensus is that guys like LaRussa, Leyland, etc, would've certainly won at least as many as Torre if not more. Their thinking was that those guys were better in-game managers than Torre, and would've had just as much success.

But someone finally brought up the point that if a guy like LaRussa managed the Yankees, he probably doesn't last from 1996-2007 under the Steinbrenner regime. It took a certain kind of person at the right point in time to be able to manage the Yankees effectively despite interference from above at every turn. The number of distractions caused by the Boss were far more frequent than what was reported, and the number of clubhouse issues as well. Torre was able to take all of this in stride for the most part, keep the players protected from outside nonsense, and steady the ship when they had their early season struggles the last few years.

It's similar to Davey Johnson in 1986 with the Mets. He got all those players on his side and was probably the biggest player's manager of all-time. That team probably doesn't have as much success under a guy like Billy Martin, despite the fact that Martin's in-game knowledge probably blows away Davey.

 

[Bobcat10]

Don't forget about Belliard, Blake and Thome!

 

[Tom Servo]

One of his recent stud pitchers is starting game 1 of a playoff series for the Phillies.

Another of his recent stud pitchers is starting game 1 of a playoff series for the Yankees.

His recent stud catcher is about to begin a playoff series in a Red Sox uniform.

This guy has no clue how to manage.

Crappy record in April and September in 6 of 7 years he managed.

Only Gardenhire and Scoscia have managed longer with the same team - but those two have more success.

Team continually plays uptight when the pressure's on.

Take the sarcasm out and you would have a good point.