Gotham - a show about Batman without any actual uhhh...Batman (1 Viewer)

[SkyRattlers]

Interesting this week.

is Jim really that naive?

Naïve about what? No matter, I really liked the pace of this episode, but I want to know if Victor Zsasz is really that bad of a shot or was he just toying with Butch.

He shot Butch from 50 feet away precisely to disable him. How is he a bad shot?

Didn't Butch get away?

No Zsasz still has him.

Butch got away from the first two guys.

 

[FUBAR]

Interesting this week.

is Jim really that naive?

Naïve about what? No matter, I really liked the pace of this episode, but I want to know if Victor Zsasz is really that bad of a shot or was he just toying with Butch.

He seemed surprised at how Oswald's guys handled his request regarding Flass / Delaware.

 

[Charlie Steiner]

Interesting this week.

is Jim really that naive?

Naïve about what? No matter, I really liked the pace of this episode, but I want to know if Victor Zsasz is really that bad of a shot or was he just toying with Butch.

He shot Butch from 50 feet away precisely to disable him. How is he a bad shot?

Didn't Butch get away?

No Zsasz still has him.

Butch got away from the first two guys.

Forgot this happened after he rescued Fish. My bad.

 

[FUBAR]

Interesting this week.

is Jim really that naive?

Naïve about what? No matter, I really liked the pace of this episode, but I want to know if Victor Zsasz is really that bad of a shot or was he just toying with Butch.

He shot Butch from 50 feet away precisely to disable him. How is he a bad shot?

Didn't Butch get away?

No Zsasz still has him.

Butch got away from the first two guys.

right - Zsasz wants to have some fun.

 

[Charlie Steiner]

Interesting this week.

is Jim really that naive?

Naïve about what? No matter, I really liked the pace of this episode, but I want to know if Victor Zsasz is really that bad of a shot or was he just toying with Butch.

He seemed surprised at how Oswald's guys handled his request regarding Flass / Delaware.

Ah. I didn't equate confusion with naivete, but I can see that.

In other news, I think we're supposed to believe that Kat was lying to Bruce.

 

[FUBAR]

Interesting this week.

is Jim really that naive?

Naïve about what? No matter, I really liked the pace of this episode, but I want to know if Victor Zsasz is really that bad of a shot or was he just toying with Butch.

He seemed surprised at how Oswald's guys handled his request regarding Flass / Delaware.

Ah. I didn't equate confusion with naivete, but I can see that.

In other news, I think we're supposed to believe that Kat was lying to Bruce.

I guess that's my point - he shouldn't be confused that Oz's guys use violence.

Cat would never lie to the bat!

 

[Charlie Steiner]

Interesting this week.

is Jim really that naive?

Naïve about what? No matter, I really liked the pace of this episode, but I want to know if Victor Zsasz is really that bad of a shot or was he just toying with Butch.

He seemed surprised at how Oswald's guys handled his request regarding Flass / Delaware.

Ah. I didn't equate confusion with naivete, but I can see that.

In other news, I think we're supposed to believe that Kat was lying to Bruce.

I guess that's my point - he shouldn't be confused that Oz's guys use violence.

Cat would never lie to the bat!

Didn't mean that Kat wouldn't lie, more that this one seemed more believeable except for the look on her face when she said it; it felt like they were going for ambiguous and missed but didn't realize they missed.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Interesting this week.

is Jim really that naive?

Naïve about what? No matter, I really liked the pace of this episode, but I want to know if Victor Zsasz is really that bad of a shot or was he just toying with Butch.

He seemed surprised at how Oswald's guys handled his request regarding Flass / Delaware.

Ah. I didn't equate confusion with naivete, but I can see that.

In other news, I think we're supposed to believe that Kat was lying to Bruce.

I guess that's my point - he shouldn't be confused that Oz's guys use violence.

Cat would never lie to the bat!

Didn't mean that Kat wouldn't lie, more that this one seemed more believeable except for the look on her face when she said it; it felt like they were going for ambiguous and missed but didn't realize they missed.

No, it was meant to be obvious (to us) that she lied to him - especially since we know she witnessed the murder in Episode 1.

 

[B Maverick]

Interesting this week.

is Jim really that naive?

Naïve about what? No matter, I really liked the pace of this episode, but I want to know if Victor Zsasz is really that bad of a shot or was he just toying with Butch.

He seemed surprised at how Oswald's guys handled his request regarding Flass / Delaware.

Ah. I didn't equate confusion with naivete, but I can see that.

In other news, I think we're supposed to believe that Kat was lying to Bruce.

I guess that's my point - he shouldn't be confused that Oz's guys use violence.

Cat would never lie to the bat!

Didn't mean that Kat wouldn't lie, more that this one seemed more believeable except for the look on her face when she said it; it felt like they were going for ambiguous and missed but didn't realize they missed.

No, it was meant to be obvious (to us) that she lied to him - especially since we know she witnessed the murder in Episode 1.

I must have missed something along the way. From where she was hiding in ep 1 she was above and behind the shooter, who was wearing a mask, correct? Did she see his face before he put the mask on? Was that discussed?

I took her statements this week as more of the truth then her saying she saw the shooter's face.

 

[AcerFC]

I thought she was lying this week. She didn't want to be looked at as a charity case so she made that stuff up. The turn didnt come until bat said she can live in a better place. Stupid kid.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I thought she was lying this week. She didn't want to be looked at as a charity case so she made that stuff up. The turn didnt come until bat said she can live in a better place. Stupid kid.

That's how I interpreted it. It was her way to blow him off.

 

[3C's]

Kept looking at "delaware" but couldn't place it. Finally hit me, "ratboy" from SOA.

 

[TheIronSheik]

This is quickly becoming one of my favorite shows. I'm really digging it.

 

[shadyridr]

Looks like we could be getting Scarecrow!

 

[snogger]

Looks like we could be getting Scarecrow!

 

[TheIronSheik]

They said last night it hit a ratings low for the show. I really want this show to last for a long time. :(

 

[Socrates11]

It's funny, but the segments with kid Bruce kinda detract from the show. It's like the writers are trying to say 'hey look, he's still got emotions and crushes on girls' before he grows to be the cold and calculating badass in the cowl.

 

[shadyridr]

They said last night it hit a ratings low for the show. I really want this show to last for a long time. :(

The problem is they are not introducing enough villains. I am losing interest myself. But scarecrow may keep me going. They need to start converting The Riddler, etc and stop making The Penguin a sniveling idiot. And the Fish Mooney story needs to stop.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I'm on the other side of the fence here. I think this should is a cheap imitation of what a really good show about Gotham could be. I think this AV Club review hits the nail on the head.

Is the show trying to be dark or goofy? It somehow manages to not only alternate between those two, but consistently do it! I like the direction Bullock's character is taking, but the show does so many goofy things (the maid listening to her headphones, anything that involves Selina Kyle moving like a cat, the ME walking into the locker room whistling without a care in the world and then boom, arms fall out of the locker, the freakin' throw water on the electricity guy may have been the worst) that it's hard to get into the right mood.

It's also ridiculously predictable. Oh, everyone says we should be happy we have the killer with 30 mins left in the show but Jim feels like maybe we're missing something? Oh I wonder what that will be. Also think the "blanks in the gun" thing was pretty obvious from a mile away.

The worst part, though, is the "near death" stuff we get with Jim and Penguin. There's 0 suspense there. Oh, Penguin is seconds away from certain death? I am going to say something miraculous happens and he lives! There's no way to build up that drama (and if there is, this show isn't doing it), so I think they should just cut it out.

There are good elements, and the show has potential, but it seems like so much of the writing is bad. I like it, but I find myself cringing way too much, or thinking "this should would be really good if only..."

 

[shadyridr]

So Im assuming Penguins club is supposed to be the Iceberg Lounge?

And it looks like we are getting The Joker! Played by Ian Gallagher?

 

[Kraft...]

Come on, just kill Fish off already, turrible

 

[FUBAR]

Come on, just kill Fish off already, turrible

I'm more interested in her character after yesterday.

The "no joke" thing has the potential to piss people off.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I'm at the point where I "watch" this show without paying much attention each week.

It seems like the introduction of more proto-Rougue's Gallery types in the second half of the season was made to appease fans, but it's pretty much 180 degrees away from the direction I'd go. I get that Christopher Nolan isn't the only person with a valid vision of Batman, but the one thing that I think worked with him was the idea that The Batman was a reaction to culture of organized crime in Gotham and the more flamboyant villains were, at least in part, a reaction to Batman.

I don't really want to see Jim Gordon doing battle with Killer Croc or Clayface or something. I imagine others differ, but I'd have been happy with a decent mob based procedural that writes Falcone and Maroni well that included the Penguin's rise into a guy who is intimately connected with the underworld. Its a less flashy show, but one that has a clear arc. If they wanted to introduce Nygma in Season 2, that would be fine, but I'd have probably confined myself to one villain origin arc a season as a parallel arc to the main corruption arc.

 

[Charlie Steiner]

I'm at the point where I "watch" this show without paying much attention each week.

It seems like the introduction of more proto-Rougue's Gallery types in the second half of the season was made to appease fans, but it's pretty much 180 degrees away from the direction I'd go. I get that Christopher Nolan isn't the only person with a valid vision of Batman, but the one thing that I think worked with him was the idea that The Batman was a reaction to culture of organized crime in Gotham and the more flamboyant villains were, at least in part, a reaction to Batman.

I don't really want to see Jim Gordon doing battle with Killer Croc or Clayface or something. I imagine others differ, but I'd have been happy with a decent mob based procedural that writes Falcone and Maroni well that included the Penguin's rise into a guy who is intimately connected with the underworld. Its a less flashy show, but one that has a clear arc. If they wanted to introduce Nygma in Season 2, that would be fine, but I'd have probably confined myself to one villain origin arc a season as a parallel arc to the main corruption arc.

I think this is where I am with the show, even though I've enjoyed seeing some of the future villans in their infancy, so to speak. I like the take on Nygma working for the GCPD and they've done well fleshing out Penguin. I just fear that bringing in Joker now is going to be the show's 'jump the shark' moment, and that's unfortunate if it happens in just the first season.

 

[Capella]

The commercial for the joker made him look like he was 8.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I'm at the point where I "watch" this show without paying much attention each week.

It seems like the introduction of more proto-Rougue's Gallery types in the second half of the season was made to appease fans, but it's pretty much 180 degrees away from the direction I'd go. I get that Christopher Nolan isn't the only person with a valid vision of Batman, but the one thing that I think worked with him was the idea that The Batman was a reaction to culture of organized crime in Gotham and the more flamboyant villains were, at least in part, a reaction to Batman.

I don't really want to see Jim Gordon doing battle with Killer Croc or Clayface or something. I imagine others differ, but I'd have been happy with a decent mob based procedural that writes Falcone and Maroni well that included the Penguin's rise into a guy who is intimately connected with the underworld. Its a less flashy show, but one that has a clear arc. If they wanted to introduce Nygma in Season 2, that would be fine, but I'd have probably confined myself to one villain origin arc a season as a parallel arc to the main corruption arc.

I think this is where I am with the show, even though I've enjoyed seeing some of the future villans in their infancy, so to speak. I like the take on Nygma working for the GCPD and they've done well fleshing out Penguin. I just fear that bringing in Joker now is going to be the show's 'jump the shark' moment, and that's unfortunate if it happens in just the first season.

I was hoping they'd stay away from the Joke for quite a while.

Joker works better as some mysterious stranger showing up to Gotham "out of the blue" (as in the Nolan version) imo. Does every villain need to be a native Gothamite?

 

[shadyridr]

Come on, just kill Fish off already, turrible

I'm more interested in her character after yesterday.

The "no joke" thing has the potential to piss people off.

part of me wishes i didnt know but the other part of me was close to giving up this show but now im totally watching next week.

 

[shadyridr]

I'm at the point where I "watch" this show without paying much attention each week.

lol im the same way. I watch this show while browsing the internet the whole hour. I hate the fish mooney character

 

[shadyridr]

The commercial for the joker made him look like he was 8.

hes 21 and a main actor on Shameless. All the villains have to be young though to align with Batmans age.

 

[shadyridr]

I thought the producers said they would leave clues to Joker all season but likely wouldnt use him. Mustve changed their minds due to bad ratings.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I thought the producers said they would leave clues to Joker all season but likely wouldnt use him. Mustve changed their minds due to bad ratings.

Ratings have been pretty decent for this show. Not incredible, but not bad.

 

[shadyridr]

I thought the producers said they would leave clues to Joker all season but likely wouldnt use him. Mustve changed their minds due to bad ratings.

Ratings have been pretty decent for this show. Not incredible, but not bad.

Yeah but look at this decline

http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/gotham-season-one-ratings-33994/

Yikes

 

[FUBAR]

I'm at the point where I "watch" this show without paying much attention each week.

It seems like the introduction of more proto-Rougue's Gallery types in the second half of the season was made to appease fans, but it's pretty much 180 degrees away from the direction I'd go. I get that Christopher Nolan isn't the only person with a valid vision of Batman, but the one thing that I think worked with him was the idea that The Batman was a reaction to culture of organized crime in Gotham and the more flamboyant villains were, at least in part, a reaction to Batman.

I don't really want to see Jim Gordon doing battle with Killer Croc or Clayface or something. I imagine others differ, but I'd have been happy with a decent mob based procedural that writes Falcone and Maroni well that included the Penguin's rise into a guy who is intimately connected with the underworld. Its a less flashy show, but one that has a clear arc. If they wanted to introduce Nygma in Season 2, that would be fine, but I'd have probably confined myself to one villain origin arc a season as a parallel arc to the main corruption arc.

Really like the Oswalt/Gordon relationship and the Falcone/Maroni is enough to keep things interesting. Fish brings a different dynamic.

Cat and Bruce is sort of fun and the Nygma development has been good (creepy, but good). Aside from those, I'd have preferred they keep the super villains to teasers in year one.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I thought the producers said they would leave clues to Joker all season but likely wouldnt use him. Mustve changed their minds due to bad ratings.

Ratings have been pretty decent for this show. Not incredible, but not bad.

Yeah but look at this decline

http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/gotham-season-one-ratings-33994/

Yikes

Yeah. Definitely not a good trend.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I give the writers credit for sliding something past me -- when the doctor said she had tickets to the circus and invited Jim, I didn't put 2+2 together and think that will lead us to be introduced to the Joker.

Any guesses as to whether Joker will be terrible or not?

 

[FUBAR]

I give the writers credit for sliding something past me -- when the doctor said she had tickets to the circus and invited Jim, I didn't put 2+2 together and think that will lead us to be introduced to the Joker.

Any guesses as to whether Joker will be terrible or not?

2+2 Here equals Robin. His family anyway.

Maybe joker will be in the circus as well, which helps explain why he'd kill everyone later. Don't remember his being in the sane circus from the comics though.

 

[shadyridr]

Nice heath ledger impersonation

 

[Chase Stuart]

A little over the top, but they could have definitely #*@!ed up the Joker more.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Also, Hector Salamanca!

 

[stbugs]

The show is getting way too hard to follow. So many story lines and people, it feels disjointed. It won't happen, but man, they should have killed Fish Mooney off already. I have no idea WTF is happening in that place she is in now. She got jumped on a boat (that end of the show scene was comically bad) by people we still have no idea who they are. Everything about her is bad and if they just cut her out the show would instantly be better.

I liked the show at the start and it seemed like it was getting solid as a "different" cop show and now it is Fish Mooney and introduce a new villain a week and I am starting to wonder how much longer I'll last. Morena Baccarin may be the only redeeming part of the show now.

 

[Beerguzzler]

The show is getting way too hard to follow. So many story lines and people, it feels disjointed. It won't happen, but man, they should have killed Fish Mooney off already. I have no idea WTF is happening in that place she is in now. She got jumped on a boat (that end of the show scene was comically bad) by people we still have no idea who they are. Everything about her is bad and if they just cut her out the show would instantly be better.

I liked the show at the start and it seemed like it was getting solid as a "different" cop show and now it is Fish Mooney and introduce a new villain a week and I am starting to wonder how much longer I'll last. Morena Baccarin may be the only redeeming part of the show now.

The addition of Morena Baccarin saved the show for me. Simply stunning woman.

I do think they are starting to bite off more than they can chew with all these storylines. They need to focus a bit more. Not sure they needed to add the joker this early. All the other bad guys are barely being introduced and not even fleshed out. The show has a solid cast, but the writing and direction is lacking.

 

[FUBAR]

The show is getting way too hard to follow. So many story lines and people, it feels disjointed. It won't happen, but man, they should have killed Fish Mooney off already. I have no idea WTF is happening in that place she is in now. She got jumped on a boat (that end of the show scene was comically bad) by people we still have no idea who they are. Everything about her is bad and if they just cut her out the show would instantly be better.

I liked the show at the start and it seemed like it was getting solid as a "different" cop show and now it is Fish Mooney and introduce a new villain a week and I am starting to wonder how much longer I'll last. Morena Baccarin may be the only redeeming part of the show now.

The addition of Morena Baccarin saved the show for me. Simply stunning woman.

I do think they are starting to bite off more than they can chew with all these storylines. They need to focus a bit more. Not sure they needed to add the joker this early. All the other bad guys are barely being introduced and not even fleshed out. The show has a solid cast, but the writing and direction is lacking.

I wouldn't expect the bad guys to be fleshed out yet, we're just getting glimpses into their past. Nygma is great, Penguin and Gordon can carry the show while we get teasers on the others.

The only thing that I detest is Barbara and knowing that somehow she ends up with Jim. She's a trainwreck (although a hot one) while Leslie is stunningly fantastic.

 

[3C's]

The show is getting way too hard to follow. So many story lines and people, it feels disjointed. It won't happen, but man, they should have killed Fish Mooney off already. I have no idea WTF is happening in that place she is in now. She got jumped on a boat (that end of the show scene was comically bad) by people we still have no idea who they are. Everything about her is bad and if they just cut her out the show would instantly be better.

I liked the show at the start and it seemed like it was getting solid as a "different" cop show and now it is Fish Mooney and introduce a new villain a week and I am starting to wonder how much longer I'll last. Morena Baccarin may be the only redeeming part of the show now.

The addition of Morena Baccarin saved the show for me. Simply stunning woman.

I do think they are starting to bite off more than they can chew with all these storylines. They need to focus a bit more. Not sure they needed to add the joker this early. All the other bad guys are barely being introduced and not even fleshed out. The show has a solid cast, but the writing and direction is lacking.

I wouldn't expect the bad guys to be fleshed out yet, we're just getting glimpses into their past. Nygma is great, Penguin and Gordon can carry the show while we get teasers on the others.

The only thing that I detest is Barbara and knowing that somehow she ends up with Jim. She's a trainwreck (although a hot one) while Leslie is stunningly fantastic.

Hot, smart (a doctor), and can cook?! True fiction right there...

 

[Charlie Steiner]

The show is getting way too hard to follow. So many story lines and people, it feels disjointed. It won't happen, but man, they should have killed Fish Mooney off already. I have no idea WTF is happening in that place she is in now. She got jumped on a boat (that end of the show scene was comically bad) by people we still have no idea who they are. Everything about her is bad and if they just cut her out the show would instantly be better.

I liked the show at the start and it seemed like it was getting solid as a "different" cop show and now it is Fish Mooney and introduce a new villain a week and I am starting to wonder how much longer I'll last. Morena Baccarin may be the only redeeming part of the show now.

The addition of Morena Baccarin saved the show for me. Simply stunning woman.

I do think they are starting to bite off more than they can chew with all these storylines. They need to focus a bit more. Not sure they needed to add the joker this early. All the other bad guys are barely being introduced and not even fleshed out. The show has a solid cast, but the writing and direction is lacking.

I wouldn't expect the bad guys to be fleshed out yet, we're just getting glimpses into their past. Nygma is great, Penguin and Gordon can carry the show while we get teasers on the others.

The only thing that I detest is Barbara and knowing that somehow she ends up with Jim. She's a trainwreck (although a hot one) while Leslie is stunningly fantastic.

I was hoping they'd hold off on Joker the entire season, but I liked what I saw. We haven't done spoiler alerts in this thread, but I have a couple of questions for those more familiar with the characters:

Spoiler

1. Batgirl is Jim Gordon's daughter; any chance Barbara isn't her mother and it's the doctor instead?

2. The preview for next week appears to introduce Red Hood, who I thought becomes Joker later on. Is that right, or is there some loophole that allows both Red Hood and Joker to co-exist?

TIA

 

[FUBAR]

The show is getting way too hard to follow. So many story lines and people, it feels disjointed. It won't happen, but man, they should have killed Fish Mooney off already. I have no idea WTF is happening in that place she is in now. She got jumped on a boat (that end of the show scene was comically bad) by people we still have no idea who they are. Everything about her is bad and if they just cut her out the show would instantly be better.

I liked the show at the start and it seemed like it was getting solid as a "different" cop show and now it is Fish Mooney and introduce a new villain a week and I am starting to wonder how much longer I'll last. Morena Baccarin may be the only redeeming part of the show now.

The addition of Morena Baccarin saved the show for me. Simply stunning woman.I do think they are starting to bite off more than they can chew with all these storylines. They need to focus a bit more. Not sure they needed to add the joker this early. All the other bad guys are barely being introduced and not even fleshed out. The show has a solid cast, but the writing and direction is lacking.

I wouldn't expect the bad guys to be fleshed out yet, we're just getting glimpses into their past. Nygma is great, Penguin and Gordon can carry the show while we get teasers on the others.

The only thing that I detest is Barbara and knowing that somehow she ends up with Jim. She's a trainwreck (although a hot one) while Leslie is stunningly fantastic.

I was hoping they'd hold off on Joker the entire season, but I liked what I saw. We haven't done spoiler alerts in this thread, but I have a couple of questions for those more familiar with the characters:

Spoiler

1. Batgirl is Jim Gordon's daughter; any chance Barbara isn't her mother and it's the doctor instead?

2. The preview for next week appears to introduce Red Hood, who I thought becomes Joker later on. Is that right, or is there some loophole that allows both Red Hood and Joker to co-exist?

TIA

My best guesses but I'm hardly an expert here.

Spoiler

1. maybe. Perhaps doc and Jim get hitched yet name their daughter Barbara?

2. Pretty sure the red hood is a gang which brings the Joker into being but the original is not the Joker.

 

[Charlie Steiner]

My best guesses but I'm hardly an expert here.

Spoiler

1. maybe. Perhaps doc and Jim get hitched yet name their daughter Barbara?

2. Pretty sure the red hood is a gang which brings the Joker into being but the original is not the Joker.

Thanks

Spoiler

My guess is that they don't get married and Barbara is born out of wedlock.

 

[stbugs]

The show is getting way too hard to follow. So many story lines and people, it feels disjointed. It won't happen, but man, they should have killed Fish Mooney off already. I have no idea WTF is happening in that place she is in now. She got jumped on a boat (that end of the show scene was comically bad) by people we still have no idea who they are. Everything about her is bad and if they just cut her out the show would instantly be better.

I liked the show at the start and it seemed like it was getting solid as a "different" cop show and now it is Fish Mooney and introduce a new villain a week and I am starting to wonder how much longer I'll last. Morena Baccarin may be the only redeeming part of the show now.

The addition of Morena Baccarin saved the show for me. Simply stunning woman.

I do think they are starting to bite off more than they can chew with all these storylines. They need to focus a bit more. Not sure they needed to add the joker this early. All the other bad guys are barely being introduced and not even fleshed out. The show has a solid cast, but the writing and direction is lacking.

I wouldn't expect the bad guys to be fleshed out yet, we're just getting glimpses into their past. Nygma is great, Penguin and Gordon can carry the show while we get teasers on the others.

The only thing that I detest is Barbara and knowing that somehow she ends up with Jim. She's a trainwreck (although a hot one) while Leslie is stunningly fantastic.

I agree on Barbara. She has been setup as such a trainwreck that it will feel forced when he somehow chooses her over the doc. I know we getting more glimpses, like Scarecrow won't likely be seen and maybe the Joker goes to prison for a while (he should). It would be nice to see them fade away a bit after introduction and they go back to the main characters. It would be really nice if somehow Fish Mooney died suddenly. I think a show of Jim/cops, Leslie (a little Barbara), Selena (with Ivy as a tag along), Nygma, Penguin/the mob and Bruce/Alfred would be solid. If they somehow try to keep the rest as regulars, it is going to be a big mess.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Not understanding the continued hate for Fish. I didn't like her character for awhile, but she's turned into one of the more redeeming parts of the show. She's smart and conniving and at least has some depth to her character. I would say she might be somewhat out of place on the show, but the show is so over the map that that's impossible.

I've come around to Fish -- Jada Pinkett Smith has done a good job with the character. And while I originally thought this side show/quasi Prison Break arc was stupid, it at least resembles a real plot line for the first time in awhile on the show.

 

[FUBAR]

The show is getting way too hard to follow. So many story lines and people, it feels disjointed. It won't happen, but man, they should have killed Fish Mooney off already. I have no idea WTF is happening in that place she is in now. She got jumped on a boat (that end of the show scene was comically bad) by people we still have no idea who they are. Everything about her is bad and if they just cut her out the show would instantly be better.

I liked the show at the start and it seemed like it was getting solid as a "different" cop show and now it is Fish Mooney and introduce a new villain a week and I am starting to wonder how much longer I'll last. Morena Baccarin may be the only redeeming part of the show now.

The addition of Morena Baccarin saved the show for me. Simply stunning woman.I do think they are starting to bite off more than they can chew with all these storylines. They need to focus a bit more. Not sure they needed to add the joker this early. All the other bad guys are barely being introduced and not even fleshed out. The show has a solid cast, but the writing and direction is lacking.

I wouldn't expect the bad guys to be fleshed out yet, we're just getting glimpses into their past. Nygma is great, Penguin and Gordon can carry the show while we get teasers on the others.

The only thing that I detest is Barbara and knowing that somehow she ends up with Jim. She's a trainwreck (although a hot one) while Leslie is stunningly fantastic.

I agree on Barbara. She has been setup as such a trainwreck that it will feel forced when he somehow chooses her over the doc. I know we getting more glimpses, like Scarecrow won't likely be seen and maybe the Joker goes to prison for a while (he should). It would be nice to see them fade away a bit after introduction and they go back to the main characters. It would be really nice if somehow Fish Mooney died suddenly. I think a show of Jim/cops, Leslie (a little Barbara), Selena (with Ivy as a tag along), Nygma, Penguin/the mob and Bruce/Alfred would be solid. If they somehow try to keep the rest as regulars, it is going to be a big mess.

Agreed on everything except I'm starting to enjoy Fish's character.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

The show is getting way too hard to follow. So many story lines and people, it feels disjointed. It won't happen, but man, they should have killed Fish Mooney off already. I have no idea WTF is happening in that place she is in now. She got jumped on a boat (that end of the show scene was comically bad) by people we still have no idea who they are. Everything about her is bad and if they just cut her out the show would instantly be better.

I liked the show at the start and it seemed like it was getting solid as a "different" cop show and now it is Fish Mooney and introduce a new villain a week and I am starting to wonder how much longer I'll last. Morena Baccarin may be the only redeeming part of the show now.

The addition of Morena Baccarin saved the show for me. Simply stunning woman.

I do think they are starting to bite off more than they can chew with all these storylines. They need to focus a bit more. Not sure they needed to add the joker this early. All the other bad guys are barely being introduced and not even fleshed out. The show has a solid cast, but the writing and direction is lacking.

I wouldn't expect the bad guys to be fleshed out yet, we're just getting glimpses into their past. Nygma is great, Penguin and Gordon can carry the show while we get teasers on the others.

The only thing that I detest is Barbara and knowing that somehow she ends up with Jim. She's a trainwreck (although a hot one) while Leslie is stunningly fantastic.

I was hoping they'd hold off on Joker the entire season, but I liked what I saw. We haven't done spoiler alerts in this thread, but I have a couple of questions for those more familiar with the characters:

Spoiler

1. Batgirl is Jim Gordon's daughter; any chance Barbara isn't her mother and it's the doctor instead?

2. The preview for next week appears to introduce Red Hood, who I thought becomes Joker later on. Is that right, or is there some loophole that allows both Red Hood and Joker to co-exist?

Spoiler

TIA

Re: Number 2 (which I'll keep in spoilers even though its being shown on commercials)

Spoiler

In Alan Moore's Killing Joke, the Joker's back story is as a failed stand-up comic being recruited into being one of the people who wears the Red Hood for the Red Hood Gang (the conceit is that Red Hood isn't one person in the gang). But we're not supposed to necessarily take that as a definitive Joker origin, because there have been other origin stories and the Joker is an unreliable narrator.