Great article on the Pats Cover Up (1 Viewer)

[Class Dismissed]

It's sad really.....the only "Real" football left is Fantasy.

 

[mdog1967]

I agree the way the whole thing was handled inclines me to believe there was much more to the cheating than the NFL has let on. However, what if they did cheat in the Super Bowls? Now what? Do you put an asterisk next to them? Do you replay them - that'd be kinda hilarious.

And it wouldn't just be the SB. Can you honestly award the trophy to say the Rams if the Pats were cheating? What about the teams they cheated to get to the Rams? Don't they have some factor in all this.

Maybe it's all a big conspiracy. Maybe not. One thing is certain, Goodell would definitely NOT release ANYTHING that would tarnish the image of the NFL. And so, if those tapes did provide clear evidence the PAts cheated to win - Goodell would be conspirator #1 in a cover up.

I think they wanted the materials destroyed so quickly because they knew that the media would sooner or later talk someone into turning over evidence that showed more wide spread cheating. And if there was cheating in the SB, the outcry would be huge. It would shake the very foundation of the NFL. And the notion that there was nothing gained by stealing the signs is insulting to me. Do they really think the American Public is that stupid? OK, so stealing signs doesn't give anyone an advantage? Then why ban the practice? Why not let everyone do it? Obviously there is an advantage gained or they wouldn't have banned it.

Shake the foundation of the NFL? You engaging in just a smidgin of hyperbole? Maybe.

 

[mdog1967]

There is no doubt in my mind the pats have cheated for years...The Teams that have come forth claiming the radio comunications were tamperd with in many games has also been quitely swept under the rug . I am not sure what it would take to do this, But I would say tampering with incripted radio signals ..is not a easy task. For the Good Of the NFL i can understand why the Comish has acted in the way he has, But if any of this actually comes to light..the NFL may be in trouble...

Really what kinda of trouble? Forget about teaching math and science in school, we need to teach more reason and logic. Just maybe Goodell reviewd the tapes and determned that there was nothing to left to see. Maybe he got a few phone calls from Other NFL coaches, former coaches and assistance and maybe a few owners and got the messege that cheating was so wide spread that opening that can was going to embaress a lot more than the Pats. Dont like the Pats, then dont like um. But if your a fan of another team and your here throwing out the Pats cheated moral outrage B.S. you might want to pause.....because you damn well know that your favorite team might have its own closets blown open somday. If your a Jets fan, forget about it - Untill Manweenie leaves, the Jets are Persona non grada in the NFL. The JETS could have handled the incident directly with the commish but they had to play gotcha media. Wait till the first digruntled Jets coach or player blows the whistle on the Jets own little mountain of secrets, its gonna happen sooner or later.This is a full of #### thread period.

 

[porkins]

What if the tapes did show the Pats taping the opposing coaches ans also showed the opposing team taping themselves? If BB is so paraniod, he probably did to cover himself incase this happened. What if he still has tapes from his days in NY and Cleveland? What if the tapes proved this was going on all over the country? If they got out to the public it could ruin the whole league.

 

[IndyHavoc]

So the NFL was interested in getting past this asap, that much is obvious. Why is it that this automatically means there's some grand conspiracy about Belichick and the Pats "cheating" for years upon years, winning SB after SB when they otherwise had no right to?People are so thrilled to throw around the word "cheating" without pointing out what that "cheating" actually was in this instance, which is especially egregious since we know exactly what Belichick is guilty of.Here's what happened; teams are permitted to watch defensive signals, study them, and even make written records of what they are for different teams/coaches. The Pats didn't want to go through all this trouble, and so they used a videocamera to record those signals. Personnel men and coaches within the NFL have said that if anything, it's the arrogance of Belichick to think he could get away with it that is far more distasteful than the act itself. Coaches change their signals all the time anyway as a matter of prudence, the fact that vidotape was being used by the Pats would present a miniscule advantage (if any - think about how dangerous it would be in a game to be absolutely sure of what the defense is doing, and then be wrong). If anything, the rule is part of the NFL's general aversion to allowing technology to take over coaching (for instance, allowing coaches to use computers that could instantaneously give them a breakdown of what their opponent's tendencies are for any given situation, right on the field between downs - thus taking the art of decision-making completely out of coaching). It took them years to allow the headset in the QB's helmet. It's also why players are only allowed to see still photos of game action on the sidelines instead of video, even though nowadays showing replays on sidelines would be easily feasible.There was an AFC coach disgusted by Mangini's actions, ratting out the man responsible for making his career (it was in a Len Pasquarelli article way back when this whole issue was relevant). In fact, if there wasn't so much bad blood between the Pats and the Jets this issue would've never surfaced anyway. Brian Billick, a week after this whole thing broke, exposed the Jets as cheaters for simulating snap counts against the Ravens offense (which, strictly on a logical basis, seems far more likely to impact the outcome of a game than videotaping). Maybe people will disagree with this, but I'll bet that was a backlash from the NFL coaching community for making public something that should never have seen the light of day.And why should it be kept from the public? Simple. Because it was a transgression on par with speeding or J-walking in the real world, and yet the media and, by extention, fans have jumped all over it and blown it out of proportion to the point where 3 Super Bowl wins are being called into question. Seriously, no one is defending Belichick or saying he didn't "cheat," but for the love of God people, keep things in perspective.

I couldn't disagree more, or feel that pretty much 100% of this is flat out wrong. Guess everyone can have their opinion, but I like to base mine on facts.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

So what we know is that the Patriots cheated. We also now know that the NFL does not want the exact extent of that cheating looked into by outside sources. We have also heard that the Patriots might have done more cheating in playing with the opposition's communications. The truth or falsity of those allegations appear to be something that the book was closed on without resolution as far as we know.

I understand Patriot fans resent the suspicion their team is under. It's unfortunate for them as they have an excellent team that they love. Seeing a venerated team denigrated is difficult for ardent fans. I would think they, more than anybody, would want the additional allegations resolved, unless they fear what would be revealed.

Many Pats fans in here have taken the tack that this is behind us now. Frankly I don't see where they have indignation over others putting things behind them in their own sweet time. Attempting to dictate how others should view this seems the height of presumption. I for one will view their accomplishments with a jaundiced eye, which is a shame as they are clearly an excellent team with passionate fans. In fairness, though, I do believe that they are not wholly unique in losing some perspective in the pursuit of victory. Simply put, the Patriots are not unique, they reflect where we as a society are.

I do believe that absent injuy they will triumph again this year, and will do so under a microscope. I hope their fans can take solice in this as their own beloved coach has victimized them with his actions. That has to be tough to live with. They have my best wishes as they go forward.

 

[greenline]

So what we know is that the Patriots cheated. We also now know that the NFL does not want the exact extent of that cheating looked into by outside sources. We have also heard that the Patriots might have done more cheating in playing with the opposition's communications. The truth or falsity of those allegations appear to be something that the book was closed on without resolution as far as we know.I understand Patriot fans resent the suspicion their team is under. It's unfortunate for them as they have an excellent team that they love. Seeing a venerated team denigrated is difficult for ardent fans. I would think they, more than anybody, would want the additional allegations resolved, unless they fear what would be revealed.Many Pats fans in here have taken the tack that this is behind us now. Frankly I don't see where they have indignation over others putting things behind them in their own sweet time. Attempting to dictate how others should view this seems the height of presumption. I for one will view their accomplishments with a jaundiced eye, which is a shame as they are clearly an excellent team with passionate fans. In fairness, though, I do believe that they are not wholly unique in losing some perspective in the pursuit of victory. Simply put, the Patriots are not unique, they reflect where we as a society are.I do believe that absent injuy they will triumph again this year, and will do so under a microscope. I hope their fans can take solice in this as their own beloved coach has victimized them with his actions. That has to be tough to live with. They have my best wishes as they go forward.

I don't think it's as big of a deal as everyone else does. I'll let history decide how impactful this tactic was on the image.

 

[Sheriff66]

Crazy talk. Pure and simple.

Lemme get this straight...the fact that they destroyed the tapes quickly means the NFL found damning evidence? Yeah, ok. So, if they took 6 weeks to destroy them....maybe burn one every 10 hours or something....then people wouldn't jump to conclusions? Crazy.

You keep evidence of wrongdoing around, especially when it's easily stored. This fits both criteria. Goodell's an attorney by training, so it smells especially fishy. You Patsies can deconstruct this all day long, but something doesn't add up here.

And all non-"Patsie" fans can waste their time on topics of this nature hoping that something, somewhere will be uncovered that tarnishes the image of the best team of this decade. Belichick was in the wrong. Check. Belichick got fined. Check. The Krafts got fined. Check. Anything else worthy of discussion relative to this closed matter? I mean other than the typical "back and to the left" talk.

You sound like the athlete caught dead to rights who "just wants to get past this". Is it or is it not significant if there was evidence of systematic cheating on those tapes that did in fact give the Pats an advantage, and that the league simply decided to sweep it under the rug to avoid the bad publicity? Yes or no.

Fact is that the league took action, and the NE haters can't let it go. Its a tired act. There is NO other damning evidence. To suggest there is, and that the league is covering it up, is downright ludicrous.

Your attempts at deflection are actually amusing. Now you're resorting to name-calling, inaccurately in my case. So be it. Only a blind homer would express no interest in why this happened the way it did.

I think when people start these threads there should be a disclaimer that myopic homers like Fanoholic, [icon], and Bad Mo can't post inside, and known haters of the Patriots can stay out also.

Since Redman is a Redskins fan I'm not sure he has any reason to hate the Patriots and he probably doesn't. I have no reason to hate them and even after hearing about this scandal it didn't change my mind. However I think reading the various homer posts from Patriots fans over the past few weeks is enough to change my mind.

As far as destroying the tapes the NFL did not look at all these tapes. Are you kidding me? I'm sure everyone here has looked through video to find something specific before and knows it takes several minutes sometimes. I look at news stories for a living and I'll spend an hour looking and re-looking at a 4 minute story. The shear volume of tapes that must have been delivered to the NFL makes me believe the NFL simply didn't care and wanted to get rid of the story before something more damming was released (i.e. cheating in a Super Bowl). If the Patriots delivered 8 tapes, it would take at least 12 hours just to view those tapes and that’s considering the Patriots did not tape both offensive and defensive signals. I’ll bet the Pats had more than 8, I’d bet they at the very least saved them from all 13 teams they play this year and I would imagine they had compilations. They also could have easily loaded the media into a laptop computer, and only kept the most recent of tapes. That would probably make more sense and also allow them to take the tapes “off the street.”

It’s also fairly unreasonable to believe that since the Patriots had admitted guilt and a punishment handed down that the NFL would not want to view the tapes in detail to see what to look for next time to prevent this type of behavior. They didn’t because sooner or later those tapes would have ended up with someone who would have leaked them to the press. Then what? What if the Pats cheated in any of their playoff games or even the Super Bowl? That would be a bomb dropped on the NFL, one that would hurt it’s credibility for years and remembered for as long as the league exists. The NFL wasn’t going to let that happen especially if any of the evidence showed that the Patriots cheated in any of their championship years which a normal person with some logic would have to believe to be the case here. If I was suspicious before, I’m closer to being sure now.

In the end the Patriots cheated and were caught and to those of you who want to say “everyone does it,” well not everyone wins three Super Bowls in four years.

Another It cracks me up how these Pats homers thinks there is nothing wrong with destorying evidence, take off the blinders

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

So what we know is that the Patriots cheated. We also now know that the NFL does not want the exact extent of that cheating looked into by outside sources. We have also heard that the Patriots might have done more cheating in playing with the opposition's communications. The truth or falsity of those allegations appear to be something that the book was closed on without resolution as far as we know.I understand Patriot fans resent the suspicion their team is under. It's unfortunate for them as they have an excellent team that they love. Seeing a venerated team denigrated is difficult for ardent fans. I would think they, more than anybody, would want the additional allegations resolved, unless they fear what would be revealed.Many Pats fans in here have taken the tack that this is behind us now. Frankly I don't see where they have indignation over others putting things behind them in their own sweet time. Attempting to dictate how others should view this seems the height of presumption. I for one will view their accomplishments with a jaundiced eye, which is a shame as they are clearly an excellent team with passionate fans. In fairness, though, I do believe that they are not wholly unique in losing some perspective in the pursuit of victory. Simply put, the Patriots are not unique, they reflect where we as a society are.I do believe that absent injuy they will triumph again this year, and will do so under a microscope. I hope their fans can take solice in this as their own beloved coach has victimized them with his actions. That has to be tough to live with. They have my best wishes as they go forward.

I don't think it's as big of a deal as everyone else does. I'll let history decide how impactful this tactic was on the image.

Ultimately this will be a barb tossed out as a counterpoint when Pats Supporters get too full of themselves, but the fact remains that Championships are settled on the field, not in courts or editorial columns. I put this just slightly above the allegations against the Broncos and the 49ers. Rarely, but sometimes brought up after a decade or so has passed.

 

[JAA]

great read

 

[JAA]

Good post. I'd agree with Easterbrook here. It's pretty disappointing to me how the league handled this. Rushing to destroy tapes like this looks like a clear "sweep it under the rug" deal. But it'll work for the league. Because people have an attention span of about 48 hours. So in the end, it works for the them. But it's disappointing to see them do this.J

Maybe it's the homer in me but from what I understand they reviewed the tapes and destroyed them after NE signed a statement confirming there were no other copies. It seems smart to destroy the tapes to ensure the footage never lands in the hands of anyone who could use it again. I don't understand why its perceived as an assist in covering anything up.

The fact they destroyed them so quickly makes everyone think they contained incredibly damning evidence. There is a HUGE negative to giving the "sweep it under the rug" impression of destroying quickly and then clamming up and not talking about. The only reason most people think you do that is if letting a 3rd party see the tapes is a worse situation.J

How long were they supposed to wait to destroy them?Or is it just that you wouldn't be satisfied unless and until someone outside the NFL had seen them and reported on it?

Christo,Why destroy them at all?

I'll tell you why: The information that was destroyed included all of the Patriots notes concerning all of the info they gathered including (presumably) their game plans and strategies that they would emply to defeat certain defenses. That part of the information, if somehow "leaked" could be VERY damaging to the Patriots in terms of giving other teams a distinct competitive advantage. The tapes themslves aren't the most important part of the evidence turned over to the league, from the Patriots perspective. The notes, in the wrong hands, would give other teams insight into Pats game planning.I think its 100% appropriate to destroy that material.

Kinda like signing a player from the Patriots? I dont think your theory holds water.

 

[redman]

I'm a backup/storage engineer. We routinely destroy old media. Any removable media that's left around has costs associated with it. If its destroyed, theres zero cost. You also eliminate any unknown risk. No matter how low the risk is while the old media is around, it's greater than zero. So we ship all old media out, have it incinerated, and keep the records of the media's destruction for our records. This is standard business practice for any expired media.

If we look back at this case again, we need to remember exactly what rules were broken. It's not against the rules to steal signals. It's only against the rules to film it. The punishments were already levied for FILMING signals, a technical violation of the existing rules. It looks to me like the league is satisfied that's all that happened. At that point you destroy the old media and move along and eliminate the cost of storing the media.

It makes perfect sense to me. Of course, I'm not a conspiracy nut or a Pats-hater. I'm just a professional guy who sees this as a logical course of action.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[redman]

Good post. I'd agree with Easterbrook here. It's pretty disappointing to me how the league handled this. Rushing to destroy tapes like this looks like a clear "sweep it under the rug" deal. But it'll work for the league. Because people have an attention span of about 48 hours. So in the end, it works for the them. But it's disappointing to see them do this.J

Maybe it's the homer in me but from what I understand they reviewed the tapes and destroyed them after NE signed a statement confirming there were no other copies. It seems smart to destroy the tapes to ensure the footage never lands in the hands of anyone who could use it again. I don't understand why its perceived as an assist in covering anything up.

The fact they destroyed them so quickly makes everyone think they contained incredibly damning evidence. There is a HUGE negative to giving the "sweep it under the rug" impression of destroying quickly and then clamming up and not talking about. The only reason most people think you do that is if letting a 3rd party see the tapes is a worse situation.J

How long were they supposed to wait to destroy them?Or is it just that you wouldn't be satisfied unless and until someone outside the NFL had seen them and reported on it?

Christo,Why destroy them at all?

I'll tell you why: The information that was destroyed included all of the Patriots notes concerning all of the info they gathered including (presumably) their game plans and strategies that they would emply to defeat certain defenses. That part of the information, if somehow "leaked" could be VERY damaging to the Patriots in terms of giving other teams a distinct competitive advantage. The tapes themslves aren't the most important part of the evidence turned over to the league, from the Patriots perspective. The notes, in the wrong hands, would give other teams insight into Pats game planning.I think its 100% appropriate to destroy that material.

That is asinine. You can guarantee security by literally putting the stuff in a storage facility that has limited access. I have little doubt that the NFL has some form of archival system that allows that, just as any major business or professional does.In addition, the shelf life for that information is poor. I've heard Joe Gibbs say that the schemes that teams run is 33% new every single year. It's going to be outdated very quickly. The lasting value of this material is as evidence of what the Pats did.

 

[Green and Gold]

Football's new grassy knoll.

 

[PMENFAN]

Crazy talk. Pure and simple.Lemme get this straight...the fact that they destroyed the tapes quickly means the NFL found damning evidence? Yeah, ok. So, if they took 6 weeks to destroy them....maybe burn one every 10 hours or something....then people wouldn't jump to conclusions? Crazy.

You keep evidence of wrongdoing around, especially when it's easily stored. This fits both criteria. Goodell's an attorney by training, so it smells especially fishy. You Patsies can deconstruct this all day long, but something doesn't add up here.

It adds up to the reality that there was nothing further discovered on the tapes. They likely contained just what the first tapes did. Look at the coach, get the signal, pan to the scoreboard. If that's what they were doing on the tape shown, why would anybody suspect otherwise on the others? they destroyed them, very likely, because the first one leaked to the media, and they didn't want the others leaked?

 

[PMENFAN]

Crazy talk. Pure and simple.Lemme get this straight...the fact that they destroyed the tapes quickly means the NFL found damning evidence? Yeah, ok. So, if they took 6 weeks to destroy them....maybe burn one every 10 hours or something....then people wouldn't jump to conclusions? Crazy.

You keep evidence of wrongdoing around, especially when it's easily stored. This fits both criteria. Goodell's an attorney by training, so it smells especially fishy. You Patsies can deconstruct this all day long, but something doesn't add up here.

Why do you need to keep evidence around when there's been an accusation of wrongdoing and an admission of guilt?

You would do it if you were trying to maintain a transparent punishment process to engender confidence in your league. I would also think that the league, if it thought that this sort of thing might reemerge in the future, would like to have such records around for comparison and/or to prevent it. It's also part of league history. There's any number of other reasons to keep it. It's far more difficult to come up with good reasons why the league would destroy such evidence, much less with the haste that they did.

Transparancy? Do you mean like the drug testing program? The program where we don't know about first offenses? The program that when we know the only way we find out what they tested positive for, on the 2nd failure, is through a leak? Transparancy like the injury reports, that us fantasy players all know are not worth the ink they're written with? It's a private business. They maintain the balance between privacy and transparency that meets their needs. Obviously the marketplace has deemed that transparancy to be adequate, because it's by far the #1 sport.

 

[redman]

Crazy talk. Pure and simple.Lemme get this straight...the fact that they destroyed the tapes quickly means the NFL found damning evidence? Yeah, ok. So, if they took 6 weeks to destroy them....maybe burn one every 10 hours or something....then people wouldn't jump to conclusions? Crazy.

You keep evidence of wrongdoing around, especially when it's easily stored. This fits both criteria. Goodell's an attorney by training, so it smells especially fishy. You Patsies can deconstruct this all day long, but something doesn't add up here.

Why do you need to keep evidence around when there's been an accusation of wrongdoing and an admission of guilt?

You would do it if you were trying to maintain a transparent punishment process to engender confidence in your league. I would also think that the league, if it thought that this sort of thing might reemerge in the future, would like to have such records around for comparison and/or to prevent it. It's also part of league history. There's any number of other reasons to keep it. It's far more difficult to come up with good reasons why the league would destroy such evidence, much less with the haste that they did.

Transparancy? Do you mean like the drug testing program? The program where we don't know about first offenses? The program that when we know the only way we find out what they tested positive for, on the 2nd failure, is through a leak? Transparancy like the injury reports, that us fantasy players all know are not worth the ink they're written with? It's a private business. They maintain the balance between privacy and transparency that meets their needs. Obviously the marketplace has deemed that transparancy to be adequate, because it's by far the #1 sport.

Nice comparison. Drug testing is subject to collective bargaining and medical privacy issues. Try again.

 

[twitch]

I had initially thought after the scandal surfaced, that if New England could only come out and get a few early blowout wins , some of this disdain would disappear. Maybe some bigtime domination without the tapes or the notes or the signals. Just a few good old fashioned butt kickings. Maybe a month or so of that would shut some people up. Bu hating is unrelenting. New England has now beaten 4 straight teams to open the season by over 20 points. Hasnt been done since 1920. In 87 years of professional football, no team has done it. No tapes. No cheating. Well, you never know. Thought it would make some of this better. It seems to have only made it worse. wonder why?

 

[PMENFAN]

Crazy talk. Pure and simple.Lemme get this straight...the fact that they destroyed the tapes quickly means the NFL found damning evidence? Yeah, ok. So, if they took 6 weeks to destroy them....maybe burn one every 10 hours or something....then people wouldn't jump to conclusions? Crazy.

You keep evidence of wrongdoing around, especially when it's easily stored. This fits both criteria. Goodell's an attorney by training, so it smells especially fishy. You Patsies can deconstruct this all day long, but something doesn't add up here.

Why do you need to keep evidence around when there's been an accusation of wrongdoing and an admission of guilt?

You would do it if you were trying to maintain a transparent punishment process to engender confidence in your league. I would also think that the league, if it thought that this sort of thing might reemerge in the future, would like to have such records around for comparison and/or to prevent it. It's also part of league history. There's any number of other reasons to keep it. It's far more difficult to come up with good reasons why the league would destroy such evidence, much less with the haste that they did.

Transparancy? Do you mean like the drug testing program? The program where we don't know about first offenses? The program that when we know the only way we find out what they tested positive for, on the 2nd failure, is through a leak? Transparancy like the injury reports, that us fantasy players all know are not worth the ink they're written with? It's a private business. They maintain the balance between privacy and transparency that meets their needs. Obviously the marketplace has deemed that transparancy to be adequate, because it's by far the #1 sport.

Nice comparison. Drug testing is subject to collective bargaining and medical privacy issues. Try again.

And BB's notes on how to crack the defenses wouldn't disrupt the competitive balance if publicized? No, medical records and the tapes are not the same exact thing, but as you stated, there are reasons the public will never see either.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I had initially thought after the scandal surfaced, that if New England could only come out and get a few early blowout wins , some of this disdain would disappear. Maybe some bigtime domination without the tapes or the notes or the signals. Just a few good old fashioned butt kickings. Maybe a month or so of that would shut some people up. Bu hating is unrelenting. New England has now beaten 4 straight teams to open the season by over 20 points. Hasnt been done since 1920. In 87 years of professional football, no team has done it. No tapes. No cheating. Well, you never know. Thought it would make some of this better. It seems to have only made it worse. wonder why?

I think we've gotten to the point where only the Patriot homers are trying to convince everyone that as soon as the taping goes away, all illegal acquired information goes away as well. That's obviously not true and I'm hoping that you're smart enough to realize this. The extreme value of taping the signals is to be able to go over them again and again to get them right. That's much harder to do if you just have a guy watching and taking notes during the games. Furthermore, the tapes and information gained obviously led to "dossiers" if you will on the teams and their defensive coordinators. I imagine those were studied all the time. I also doubt that all the material was given to the NFL and destroyed. So now the Patriots have a file on how a coordinator calls a defense and makes adjustments. As pointed out above, those type of things change about 33% a year or so, but they still have information on how coordinators call plays from last year. It would be very difficult and time consuming for all those coordinators to suddenly change all their play calls after going through all of training camp with them in use. The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team. But only a fool thinks that they are no longer using any of the information that they illegally gathered in the past.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

I had initially thought after the scandal surfaced, that if New England could only come out and get a few early blowout wins , some of this disdain would disappear. Maybe some bigtime domination without the tapes or the notes or the signals. Just a few good old fashioned butt kickings. Maybe a month or so of that would shut some people up. Bu hating is unrelenting. New England has now beaten 4 straight teams to open the season by over 20 points. Hasnt been done since 1920. In 87 years of professional football, no team has done it. No tapes. No cheating. Well, you never know. Thought it would make some of this better. It seems to have only made it worse. wonder why?

I think we've gotten to the point where only the Patriot homers are trying to convince everyone that as soon as the taping goes away, all illegal acquired information goes away as well. That's obviously not true and I'm hoping that you're smart enough to realize this. The extreme value of taping the signals is to be able to go over them again and again to get them right. That's much harder to do if you just have a guy watching and taking notes during the games. Furthermore, the tapes and information gained obviously led to "dossiers" if you will on the teams and their defensive coordinators. I imagine those were studied all the time. I also doubt that all the material was given to the NFL and destroyed. So now the Patriots have a file on how a coordinator calls a defense and makes adjustments. As pointed out above, those type of things change about 33% a year or so, but they still have information on how coordinators call plays from last year. It would be very difficult and time consuming for all those coordinators to suddenly change all their play calls after going through all of training camp with them in use. The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team. But only a fool thinks that they are no longer using any of the information that they illegally gathered in the past.

Wrong. You weave a nice tale, but (legal) game tape of all 32 teams every game of every week is readily available and analyzed with computer simulation models cross-referenced to down an distance to build much more sophisticated dossiers on teams, coaches, assistant coaches, etc. than could ever be built with manual disection of a single game tape or a series of game tapes. The entire premise of your assertation is a reuse.

 

[redman]

I had initially thought after the scandal surfaced, that if New England could only come out and get a few early blowout wins , some of this disdain would disappear. Maybe some bigtime domination without the tapes or the notes or the signals. Just a few good old fashioned butt kickings. Maybe a month or so of that would shut some people up. Bu hating is unrelenting. New England has now beaten 4 straight teams to open the season by over 20 points. Hasnt been done since 1920. In 87 years of professional football, no team has done it. No tapes. No cheating. Well, you never know. Thought it would make some of this better. It seems to have only made it worse. wonder why?

I think we've gotten to the point where only the Patriot homers are trying to convince everyone that as soon as the taping goes away, all illegal acquired information goes away as well. That's obviously not true and I'm hoping that you're smart enough to realize this. The extreme value of taping the signals is to be able to go over them again and again to get them right. That's much harder to do if you just have a guy watching and taking notes during the games. Furthermore, the tapes and information gained obviously led to "dossiers" if you will on the teams and their defensive coordinators. I imagine those were studied all the time. I also doubt that all the material was given to the NFL and destroyed. So now the Patriots have a file on how a coordinator calls a defense and makes adjustments. As pointed out above, those type of things change about 33% a year or so, but they still have information on how coordinators call plays from last year. It would be very difficult and time consuming for all those coordinators to suddenly change all their play calls after going through all of training camp with them in use. The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team. But only a fool thinks that they are no longer using any of the information that they illegally gathered in the past.

Wrong. You weave a nice tale, but (legal) game tape of all 32 teams every game of every week is readily available and analyzed with computer simulation models cross-referenced to down an distance to build much more sophisticated dossiers on teams, coaches, assistant coaches, etc. than could ever be built with manual disection of a single game tape or a series of game tapes. The entire premise of your assertation is a reuse.

Ok, so you admit that tremendous time and resources are expended studying team tendencies off of game film, and yet you're trying to convince us that it's not worth it for teams to spend some time trying to decipher opposing teams' signals?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

However I think reading the various homer posts from Patriots fans over the past few weeks is enough to change my mind.

They have ruined the KFFL forums from having any objective, informative and educated football discussions.

 

[twitch]

I had initially thought after the scandal surfaced, that if New England could only come out and get a few early blowout wins , some of this disdain would disappear. Maybe some bigtime domination without the tapes or the notes or the signals. Just a few good old fashioned butt kickings. Maybe a month or so of that would shut some people up. Bu hating is unrelenting. New England has now beaten 4 straight teams to open the season by over 20 points. Hasnt been done since 1920. In 87 years of professional football, no team has done it. No tapes. No cheating. Well, you never know. Thought it would make some of this better. It seems to have only made it worse. wonder why?

I think we've gotten to the point where only the Patriot homers are trying to convince everyone that as soon as the taping goes away, all illegal acquired information goes away as well. That's obviously not true and I'm hoping that you're smart enough to realize this. The extreme value of taping the signals is to be able to go over them again and again to get them right. That's much harder to do if you just have a guy watching and taking notes during the games. Furthermore, the tapes and information gained obviously led to "dossiers" if you will on the teams and their defensive coordinators. I imagine those were studied all the time. I also doubt that all the material was given to the NFL and destroyed. So now the Patriots have a file on how a coordinator calls a defense and makes adjustments. As pointed out above, those type of things change about 33% a year or so, but they still have information on how coordinators call plays from last year. It would be very difficult and time consuming for all those coordinators to suddenly change all their play calls after going through all of training camp with them in use. The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team. But only a fool thinks that they are no longer using any of the information that they illegally gathered in the past.

"The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team". Its really this simple. There's no need to go on. Noone is a fool because they dont know anything. Dont get 'Joe Harvard' on me. We all have knowledge of how things are done. But move on already. Information is gathered. its used. All teams do it. Some teams use it better than others. Some teams are simply better than others. What more evidence does anyone need?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

"The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team". Its really this simple. There's no need to go on. Noone is a fool because they dont know anything. Dont get 'Joe Harvard' on me. We all have knowledge of how things are done. But move on already. Information is gathered. its used. All teams do it. Some teams use it better than others. Some teams are simply better than others. What more evidence does anyone need?

The detroyed evidence?

 

[Bad_Mo]

Crazy talk. Pure and simple.

Lemme get this straight...the fact that they destroyed the tapes quickly means the NFL found damning evidence? Yeah, ok. So, if they took 6 weeks to destroy them....maybe burn one every 10 hours or something....then people wouldn't jump to conclusions? Crazy.

You keep evidence of wrongdoing around, especially when it's easily stored. This fits both criteria. Goodell's an attorney by training, so it smells especially fishy. You Patsies can deconstruct this all day long, but something doesn't add up here.

And all non-"Patsie" fans can waste their time on topics of this nature hoping that something, somewhere will be uncovered that tarnishes the image of the best team of this decade. Belichick was in the wrong. Check. Belichick got fined. Check. The Krafts got fined. Check. Anything else worthy of discussion relative to this closed matter? I mean other than the typical "back and to the left" talk.

You sound like the athlete caught dead to rights who "just wants to get past this". Is it or is it not significant if there was evidence of systematic cheating on those tapes that did in fact give the Pats an advantage, and that the league simply decided to sweep it under the rug to avoid the bad publicity? Yes or no.

Fact is that the league took action, and the NE haters can't let it go. Its a tired act. There is NO other damning evidence. To suggest there is, and that the league is covering it up, is downright ludicrous.

Your attempts at deflection are actually amusing. Now you're resorting to name-calling, inaccurately in my case. So be it. Only a blind homer would express no interest in why this happened the way it did.

Deflection? Wrong word, sir. The correct description is moving forward. Name calling? Let's see....you say Patsies...I say NE haters. Hmmmm. Which one is name calling versus an accurate description of those who hate NE for whatever jealous reason they have? I didn't call YOU a NE hater. As far as the blind homer statement, I can think of many people who are not "blind homers" that give a rat's ### about this article or topic. You're locked on to this story tighter than one of Vick's pitbulls' jaw around its opponent's neck, hoping and praying that there is a cover up. Don't hold your breath brutha.

 

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Does anyone actually care about this? I think that it is rather obvious that ALL TEAMS in the NFL do things of this nature. Just because the Pats got caught, doesn't mean that they are the bad guys. They all do it, and it is part of the competitive nature of the game.

 

[Lombaowski]

Crazy talk. Pure and simple.

Lemme get this straight...the fact that they destroyed the tapes quickly means the NFL found damning evidence? Yeah, ok. So, if they took 6 weeks to destroy them....maybe burn one every 10 hours or something....then people wouldn't jump to conclusions? Crazy.

You keep evidence of wrongdoing around, especially when it's easily stored. This fits both criteria. Goodell's an attorney by training, so it smells especially fishy. You Patsies can deconstruct this all day long, but something doesn't add up here.

And all non-"Patsie" fans can waste their time on topics of this nature hoping that something, somewhere will be uncovered that tarnishes the image of the best team of this decade. Belichick was in the wrong. Check. Belichick got fined. Check. The Krafts got fined. Check. Anything else worthy of discussion relative to this closed matter? I mean other than the typical "back and to the left" talk.

You sound like the athlete caught dead to rights who "just wants to get past this". Is it or is it not significant if there was evidence of systematic cheating on those tapes that did in fact give the Pats an advantage, and that the league simply decided to sweep it under the rug to avoid the bad publicity? Yes or no.

Fact is that the league took action, and the NE haters can't let it go. Its a tired act. There is NO other damning evidence. To suggest there is, and that the league is covering it up, is downright ludicrous.

Your attempts at deflection are actually amusing. Now you're resorting to name-calling, inaccurately in my case. So be it. Only a blind homer would express no interest in why this happened the way it did.

Deflection? Wrong word, sir. The correct description is moving forward. Name calling? Let's see....you say Patsies...I say NE haters. Hmmmm. Which one is name calling versus an accurate description of those who hate NE for whatever jealous reason they have? I didn't call YOU a NE hater. As far as the blind homer statement, I can think of many people who are not "blind homers" that give a rat's ### about this article or topic. You're locked on to this story tighter than one of Vick's pitbulls' jaw around its opponent's neck, hoping and praying that there is a cover up. Don't hold your breath brutha.

 

[Bad_Mo]

Does anyone actually care about this? I think that it is rather obvious that ALL TEAMS in the NFL do things of this nature. Just because the Pats got caught, doesn't mean that they are the bad guys. They all do it, and it is part of the competitive nature of the game.

Watch out widdow maker, you're treading in serious blind homer waters with this statement.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

However I think reading the various homer posts from Patriots fans over the past few weeks is enough to change my mind.

They have ruined the KFFL forums from having any objective, informative and educated football discussions.

So sad. I guess you'll be leaving then. Don't let the door hit you in the #### on your way out, Kordell groupie.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

However I think reading the various homer posts from Patriots fans over the past few weeks is enough to change my mind.

They have ruined the KFFL forums from having any objective, informative and educated football discussions. :(

So sad. I guess you'll be leaving then. Don't let the door hit you in the #### on your way out, Kordell groupie.

Nice attack. You are a fine example of exactly what the problem over there is. Exactly.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

I had initially thought after the scandal surfaced, that if New England could only come out and get a few early blowout wins , some of this disdain would disappear. Maybe some bigtime domination without the tapes or the notes or the signals. Just a few good old fashioned butt kickings. Maybe a month or so of that would shut some people up. Bu hating is unrelenting. New England has now beaten 4 straight teams to open the season by over 20 points. Hasnt been done since 1920. In 87 years of professional football, no team has done it. No tapes. No cheating. Well, you never know. Thought it would make some of this better. It seems to have only made it worse. wonder why?

I think we've gotten to the point where only the Patriot homers are trying to convince everyone that as soon as the taping goes away, all illegal acquired information goes away as well. That's obviously not true and I'm hoping that you're smart enough to realize this. The extreme value of taping the signals is to be able to go over them again and again to get them right. That's much harder to do if you just have a guy watching and taking notes during the games. Furthermore, the tapes and information gained obviously led to "dossiers" if you will on the teams and their defensive coordinators. I imagine those were studied all the time. I also doubt that all the material was given to the NFL and destroyed. So now the Patriots have a file on how a coordinator calls a defense and makes adjustments. As pointed out above, those type of things change about 33% a year or so, but they still have information on how coordinators call plays from last year. It would be very difficult and time consuming for all those coordinators to suddenly change all their play calls after going through all of training camp with them in use. The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team. But only a fool thinks that they are no longer using any of the information that they illegally gathered in the past.

Wrong. You weave a nice tale, but (legal) game tape of all 32 teams every game of every week is readily available and analyzed with computer simulation models cross-referenced to down an distance to build much more sophisticated dossiers on teams, coaches, assistant coaches, etc. than could ever be built with manual disection of a single game tape or a series of game tapes. The entire premise of your assertation is a reuse.

Ok, so you admit that tremendous time and resources are expended studying team tendencies off of game film, and yet you're trying to convince us that it's not worth it for teams to spend some time trying to decipher opposing teams' signals?

So apparently you think that signals are a static commodity. Signals change, tendencies don't. Signals can be documented with note-takers or videotape based methods and if the opposing coaching staff is naive enough to think it can keep signal sets, they wont be around for long. Old signals wear out. Tendencies are based on a continuously evolving data set, and cannot therefore wear out.Hypothetical example:

Patriots play Jets in September and December. They videotape the September game. After the game, they match up the game tape with their video of the Jets defensive coaching staff hand signals. When the December game rolls around....

Scenario A - exact same signals are used, huge advantage Patriots, Jets coach is a moron.

Scenario B - different signals used, advantage neutralized, Jets coach taking appropriate caution against commonplace efforts to steal signals

Scenario C - patriots use simulation results to predict most probable defensive alignments and no longer pin their hopes on stale information.

Here's my bottom line, if anyone here wants to deny that Scenario C >>>> B >>>>> A in terms of how gameplanning in the NFL takes place, they are either being deliberately disengenious or galactically stupid. Peace out.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

However I think reading the various homer posts from Patriots fans over the past few weeks is enough to change my mind.

They have ruined the KFFL forums from having any objective, informative and educated football discussions. :(

So sad. I guess you'll be leaving then. Don't let the door hit you in the #### on your way out, Kordell groupie.

Nice attack. You are a fine example of exactly what the problem over there is. Exactly.

Your posting history paints a different story than your feigned impartiality friend. Enjoy the rest of your season.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

However I think reading the various homer posts from Patriots fans over the past few weeks is enough to change my mind.

They have ruined the KFFL forums from having any objective, informative and educated football discussions. :(

So sad. I guess you'll be leaving then. Don't let the door hit you in the #### on your way out, Kordell groupie.

Nice attack. You are a fine example of exactly what the problem over there is. Exactly.

Your posting history paints a different story than your feigned impartiality friend. Enjoy the rest of your season.

You mean me posting about the Patriots cheating? Thats because they did cheat and got caught.

 

[Squinting Cyclops]

I don't know how many of the rest of you had this reaction, but when I heard the evidence was received and destroyed, my reaction was..... "DESTROYED???? Where did that come from?"

A guilty party destroys damning evidence to avoid getting busted, when does a governing body destroy evidence?

To me, a governing body that destroys evidence makes me VERY suspicious.

 

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Does anyone actually care about this? I think that it is rather obvious that ALL TEAMS in the NFL do things of this nature. Just because the Pats got caught, doesn't mean that they are the bad guys. They all do it, and it is part of the competitive nature of the game.

Watch out widdow maker, you're treading in serious blind homer waters with this statement.

Well... I live in Ohio, and I am a Dallas Cowboys fan. :(

 

[twitch]

"The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team". Its really this simple. There's no need to go on. Noone is a fool because they dont know anything. Dont get 'Joe Harvard' on me. We all have knowledge of how things are done. But move on already. Information is gathered. its used. All teams do it. Some teams use it better than others. Some teams are simply better than others. What more evidence does anyone need?

The detroyed evidence?

Anyone with an ounce of sense understands the NFL destroyed the tapes/notes because a) it didnt further incriminate NE and b) so knucklehead conspiracy theorists, haters and the like wouldnt gain access to the information and run wild with their vivid imaginations, continuing to drag the good name of the NFL unnessecarily thru the mudd, all because they have basically nothing better to do with their lives than hate on a team that has to this point in the season confirmed their greatness by beating 4 straight teams by over 20 points. Sense dont cost a thing. Its free all day, so help yourself. And again, Steelers fans, let it go. Nobody's spending thread space burying the 70s Pittsburgh teams for being a bunch of steroid junkies. So either astericize your own rings or move on.

 

[DropKick]

"The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team". Its really this simple. There's no need to go on. Noone is a fool because they dont know anything. Dont get 'Joe Harvard' on me. We all have knowledge of how things are done. But move on already. Information is gathered. its used. All teams do it. Some teams use it better than others. Some teams are simply better than others. What more evidence does anyone need?

The detroyed evidence?

Anyone with an ounce of sense understands the NFL destroyed the tapes/notes because a) it didnt further incriminate NE and b) so knucklehead conspiracy theorists, haters and the like wouldnt gain access to the information and run wild with their vivid imaginations, continuing to drag the good name of the NFL unnessecarily thru the mudd, all because they have basically nothing better to do with their lives than hate on a team that has to this point in the season confirmed their greatness by beating 4 straight teams by over 20 points. Sense dont cost a thing. Its free all day, so help yourself. And again, Steelers fans, let it go. Nobody's spending thread space burying the 70s Pittsburgh teams for being a bunch of steroid junkies. So either astericize your own rings or move on.

Good point. A dynasty built on steroids.I personally think their latest win will always be tainted by a blatant cheap shot on Carson Palmer and the worst officiated SB game I've ever seen.

But hey... why take cheap shots?

 

[Pat Patriot]

Good post. I'd agree with Easterbrook here. It's pretty disappointing to me how the league handled this. Rushing to destroy tapes like this looks like a clear "sweep it under the rug" deal. But it'll work for the league. Because people have an attention span of about 48 hours. So in the end, it works for the them. But it's disappointing to see them do this.J

Maybe it's the homer in me but from what I understand they reviewed the tapes and destroyed them after NE signed a statement confirming there were no other copies. It seems smart to destroy the tapes to ensure the footage never lands in the hands of anyone who could use it again. I don't understand why its perceived as an assist in covering anything up.

The fact they destroyed them so quickly makes everyone think they contained incredibly damning evidence. There is a HUGE negative to giving the "sweep it under the rug" impression of destroying quickly and then clamming up and not talking about. The only reason most people think you do that is if letting a 3rd party see the tapes is a worse situation.J

The Patriots have been accused of taping the defensive coaches of apposing teams. That is what the turned over tapes were. Pretty boring stuff. What exactly do you think was on the tapes? What could POSSIBLY be so damning about these game tapes?

 

[freelander]

"The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team". Its really this simple. There's no need to go on. Noone is a fool because they dont know anything. Dont get 'Joe Harvard' on me. We all have knowledge of how things are done. But move on already. Information is gathered. its used. All teams do it. Some teams use it better than others. Some teams are simply better than others. What more evidence does anyone need?

The detroyed evidence?

Anyone with an ounce of sense understands the NFL destroyed the tapes/notes because a) it didnt further incriminate NE and b) so knucklehead conspiracy theorists, haters and the like wouldnt gain access to the information and run wild with their vivid imaginations, continuing to drag the good name of the NFL unnessecarily thru the mudd, all because they have basically nothing better to do with their lives than hate on a team that has to this point in the season confirmed their greatness by beating 4 straight teams by over 20 points. Sense dont cost a thing. Its free all day, so help yourself. And again, Steelers fans, let it go. Nobody's spending thread space burying the 70s Pittsburgh teams for being a bunch of steroid junkies. So either astericize your own rings or move on.

Sounds like a mutual astericization may just settle this (from a non steeler fan)

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I had initially thought after the scandal surfaced, that if New England could only come out and get a few early blowout wins , some of this disdain would disappear. Maybe some bigtime domination without the tapes or the notes or the signals. Just a few good old fashioned butt kickings. Maybe a month or so of that would shut some people up. Bu hating is unrelenting. New England has now beaten 4 straight teams to open the season by over 20 points. Hasnt been done since 1920. In 87 years of professional football, no team has done it. No tapes. No cheating. Well, you never know. Thought it would make some of this better. It seems to have only made it worse. wonder why?

I think we've gotten to the point where only the Patriot homers are trying to convince everyone that as soon as the taping goes away, all illegal acquired information goes away as well. That's obviously not true and I'm hoping that you're smart enough to realize this. The extreme value of taping the signals is to be able to go over them again and again to get them right. That's much harder to do if you just have a guy watching and taking notes during the games. Furthermore, the tapes and information gained obviously led to "dossiers" if you will on the teams and their defensive coordinators. I imagine those were studied all the time. I also doubt that all the material was given to the NFL and destroyed. So now the Patriots have a file on how a coordinator calls a defense and makes adjustments. As pointed out above, those type of things change about 33% a year or so, but they still have information on how coordinators call plays from last year. It would be very difficult and time consuming for all those coordinators to suddenly change all their play calls after going through all of training camp with them in use. The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team. But only a fool thinks that they are no longer using any of the information that they illegally gathered in the past.

Wrong. You weave a nice tale, but (legal) game tape of all 32 teams every game of every week is readily available and analyzed with computer simulation models cross-referenced to down an distance to build much more sophisticated dossiers on teams, coaches, assistant coaches, etc. than could ever be built with manual disection of a single game tape or a series of game tapes. The entire premise of your assertation is a reuse.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I had initially thought after the scandal surfaced, that if New England could only come out and get a few early blowout wins , some of this disdain would disappear. Maybe some bigtime domination without the tapes or the notes or the signals. Just a few good old fashioned butt kickings. Maybe a month or so of that would shut some people up. Bu hating is unrelenting. New England has now beaten 4 straight teams to open the season by over 20 points. Hasnt been done since 1920. In 87 years of professional football, no team has done it. No tapes. No cheating. Well, you never know. Thought it would make some of this better. It seems to have only made it worse. wonder why?

I think we've gotten to the point where only the Patriot homers are trying to convince everyone that as soon as the taping goes away, all illegal acquired information goes away as well. That's obviously not true and I'm hoping that you're smart enough to realize this. The extreme value of taping the signals is to be able to go over them again and again to get them right. That's much harder to do if you just have a guy watching and taking notes during the games. Furthermore, the tapes and information gained obviously led to "dossiers" if you will on the teams and their defensive coordinators. I imagine those were studied all the time. I also doubt that all the material was given to the NFL and destroyed. So now the Patriots have a file on how a coordinator calls a defense and makes adjustments. As pointed out above, those type of things change about 33% a year or so, but they still have information on how coordinators call plays from last year. It would be very difficult and time consuming for all those coordinators to suddenly change all their play calls after going through all of training camp with them in use. The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team. But only a fool thinks that they are no longer using any of the information that they illegally gathered in the past.

Wrong. You weave a nice tale, but (legal) game tape of all 32 teams every game of every week is readily available and analyzed with computer simulation models cross-referenced to down an distance to build much more sophisticated dossiers on teams, coaches, assistant coaches, etc. than could ever be built with manual disection of a single game tape or a series of game tapes. The entire premise of your assertation is a reuse.

Ok, so you admit that tremendous time and resources are expended studying team tendencies off of game film, and yet you're trying to convince us that it's not worth it for teams to spend some time trying to decipher opposing teams' signals?

So apparently you think that signals are a static commodity. Signals change, tendencies don't. Signals can be documented with note-takers or videotape based methods and if the opposing coaching staff is naive enough to think it can keep signal sets, they wont be around for long. Old signals wear out. Tendencies are based on a continuously evolving data set, and cannot therefore wear out.Hypothetical example:

Patriots play Jets in September and December. They videotape the September game. After the game, they match up the game tape with their video of the Jets defensive coaching staff hand signals. When the December game rolls around....

Scenario A - exact same signals are used, huge advantage Patriots, Jets coach is a moron.

Scenario B - different signals used, advantage neutralized, Jets coach taking appropriate caution against commonplace efforts to steal signals

Scenario C - patriots use simulation results to predict most probable defensive alignments and no longer pin their hopes on stale information.

Here's my bottom line, if anyone here wants to deny that Scenario C >>>> B >>>>> A in terms of how gameplanning in the NFL takes place, they are either being deliberately disengenious or galactically stupid. Peace out.

When you say peace out, does that mean you'll stop with your blind homer nonsense?

 

[Sheriff66]

"The Patriots are beating teams now because they're a very good football team". Its really this simple. There's no need to go on. Noone is a fool because they dont know anything. Dont get 'Joe Harvard' on me. We all have knowledge of how things are done. But move on already. Information is gathered. its used. All teams do it. Some teams use it better than others. Some teams are simply better than others. What more evidence does anyone need?

The detroyed evidence?

Anyone with an ounce of sense understands the NFL destroyed the tapes/notes because a) it didnt further incriminate NE and b) so knucklehead conspiracy theorists, haters and the like wouldnt gain access to the information and run wild with their vivid imaginations, continuing to drag the good name of the NFL unnessecarily thru the mudd, all because they have basically nothing better to do with their lives than hate on a team that has to this point in the season confirmed their greatness by beating 4 straight teams by over 20 points. Sense dont cost a thing. Its free all day, so help yourself. And again, Steelers fans, let it go. Nobody's spending thread space burying the 70s Pittsburgh teams for being a bunch of steroid junkies. So either astericize your own rings or move on.

Good point. A dynasty built on steroids.I personally think their latest win will always be tainted by a blatant cheap shot on Carson Palmer and the worst officiated SB game I've ever seen.

But hey... why take cheap shots?

Steroids were not illegal in the 70's, and were readily available to all, video taping other tems signals is...Nice try though...

 

[phthalatemagic]

However I think reading the various homer posts from Patriots fans over the past few weeks is enough to change my mind.

They have ruined the KFFL forums from having any objective, informative and educated football discussions. :(

And Mingo is too weakminded to do a thing about it.

 

[phthalatemagic]

There is no doubt in my mind the pats have cheated for years...The Teams that have come forth claiming the radio comunications were tamperd with in many games has also been quitely swept under the rug . I am not sure what it would take to do this, But I would say tampering with incripted radio signals ..is not a easy task.

For the Good Of the NFL i can understand why the Comish has acted in the way he has, But if any of this actually comes to light..the NFL may be in trouble...

Really what kinda of trouble? Forget about teaching math and science in school, we need to teach more reason and logic. Just maybe Goodell reviewd the tapes and determned that there was nothing to left to see. Maybe he got a few phone calls from Other NFL coaches, former coaches and assistance and maybe a few owners and got the messege that cheating was so wide spread that opening that can was going to embaress a lot more than the Pats. Dont like the Pats, then dont like um. But if your a fan of another team and your here throwing out the Pats cheated moral outrage B.S. you might want to pause.....because you damn well know that your favorite team might have its own closets blown open somday. If your a Jets fan, forget about it - Untill Manweenie leaves, the Jets are Persona non grada in the NFL. The JETS could have handled the incident directly with the commish but they had to play gotcha media. Wait till the first digruntled Jets coach or player blows the whistle on the Jets own little mountain of secrets, its gonna happen sooner or later.

This is a full of #### thread period.

:(



If only you would have stopped before you started.