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from wiki:
so - 47 4th quarter comebacks in 234 games ->.20 4th quarter comebacks/games played. This is the landslide that Levin was talking about. He simply shouldn't have included Marino in the discussion.I still would like to find a reference for this stat better than a paragraph in Wiki.
No disrespect to Favre, he is IMO in the top five best QBs of all time. But I disagree that Favre turned around the Packers. Ron Wolf turned around the Packers - by bringing in guys like Favre , Reggie and Holmgren.Marc Levin said:
Yeah, Elway really was the Magic Man in the 4th quarter. That's why I didn't try to dispute it.However, Montana was still better in the clutch, IMO. Nothing bothered the guy, and the niners blew so many people out he didn't have to win a lot of games in the 4th quarter.moleculo said:
I used to have a wrestling coach that told us that the way you beat a better opponent is to keep it close and win it in the last period. I seriously think that was Reeves philosophy - keep the score managable for 3 quarters, relying on a solid D and an adequate running game, and then open things up in the 4th and let Elway use his magic.This philosophy did allow the Broncos to go to 3 SB's, but I don't think it's a good enough philosophy to beat the Giants, Redskins, or 49ers of the late 80's. This philosophy also seriously hampered Elways stats. If he spent a majority of his career in a pass friendly offense, I have no doubt whatsoever that he would own every passing record there is.It's also true that Montana didn't have to win as many games in the 4th quarter - his team seemed to be winning after 3, so he didn't have to rely on a dramatic 4th quarter comeback. Montana certainly was clutch, and I wouldn't argue that given the opprutunity, he was as clutch as Elway was. I reference "The Catch" and his game winning drive vs Cinncinati in SB XXIII as evidence of Montana's cool under pressure.
BFred, the supporting cast around Favre was much better both on offense and on defense. You can say whatever you want, but that is true. If Marino had any defense at all or any running attack Marino would be the unquestioned #1 QB in all the minds like yours (who incorrectly look at titles alone). Like I mentioned before the QB is no more than 16% of the entire team and I think less. THE TEAM is what wins championships. Put Favre and Marino on the Cardinals this year and they still lose more games then they win.
I respect your rankings, but wonder what you didn't like about Young's game. I know ranking him 7th overall is showing great respect, but you know what I mean.
I would NEVER, EVER include Manning in my list of greatest QB's of all time, nor do I consider him to be anything more than a glorified Dan Fouts/Warren Moon....dude has a losing playoff record: 3-6..that is PATHETIC..I'm not going to include Manning in this group UNTIL he wins a SB..with the HOF talent that surrounded him ( Harrison, Saturday, Edge) there is NO excuse for him NOT winning or at least playing in a SB by now, plain and simple..
You do realize that 21 other players are on the field at the same time as the QB, and that each team has 52 other players on the active roster, right?And the Broncos defenses in the 80s were very good and very talented, those teams were hardly bereft of talent outside of Elway.
Personally, I like QB's who can actually WIN the big one, who can win despite adversity, who can drive the team down the field on the final possession for the winning score in the biggest game of their lives, ala Montana, Brady..Elway has proven to be in the discussion because he made it to 3 SB's without a solid running game, with average WR's ( Amigos), and with little else around him. This is why he got blown out three times before winning a pair of SB's..he finally had a talented WR ( Smith) and Terrell Davis at RB, not to mention a good defense.
If you think Manning can drive the Niners down the field against Cincy like Montana did, you're
If you think Manning can drive the Patriots down the field on the final possession in two different SB's ala Brady, to win it all, you're
and for good measure, the greatest QB of all time, without a doubt, was Otto Graham..quarterbacked the Browns to 10 championship games in 10 years, won 4 championships in the AAFC and 3 NFL titles, along with 3 AAFC MVP awards, he also compiled a lifetime 105-17-4 regular season record..
"The test of a quarterback is where his team finishes," said Paul Brown, Graham's coach in Cleveland. "By that standard, Otto Graham was the best of all time."
you still like Manning and his 3-6 lifetime postseason record?!?!
one more QB that supercedes ALL others except maybe Graham, is Johnny Unitas..
and Bart Starr was better than anyone NOT named Graham and Unitas..
just check out his post season record, the # of championships ( 5) + SB's (2) , and SB MVP's (2) he's won..
Manning couldn't hold Starr's jockstrap..
Marino, Brady, Elway, Montana are QB's for the ages..Manning ,most definitely, IS NOT..
I listed the reasons I think Favre is better than Marino. Titles were not a significant item on that list, and certainly not "titles alone". But I can understand why you'd lean on that, since it's the easiest argument to make and probably the one you've used the most often in the past.
Wait a minute. Favre's stats are inflated because he was throwing on first down? Aren't Marino's stats inflated because he had no running game and no defense? It seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it, too.
show me another HOF caliber player on the Broncos in the late '80's (I belive that Mecklenburg or Dennis Smith are HOF caiber, but apparently no one else does). Those Bronco teams were not bereft of talent, but they were hardly stacked.So, basically, the Broncos went to 3 SB's in 4 years with one HOF caliber player. I don't think that there are any other teams that have done that - Vikings in 70's had Tarkenton and the fearsome 4some, Bills had Kelley, Reed and TThomas, not to mention Levy...Are there any teams with multiple SB appearances in a short time span with fewer HOF players than the '86-'89 Broncos?
