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Greatest QB of All-Time (1 Viewer)

i say its a toss up at the moment between manning and marino. manning has played long enough to list him with the best. he can drop off the list or he can solidify his number one position. but he is in the top 5 all time.
Manning needs a Super Bowl ring to even be in the discussion for top 10. That's simply the way it is.
 
i say its a toss up at the moment between manning and marino. manning has played long enough to list him with the best. he can drop off the list or he can solidify his number one position. but he is in the top 5 all time.
Since we are all friends here . . .I'm not sure I agree with this one. Manning has been a very good QB since coming into the league and has played as one of the Top 5 in the league each year after his rookie season. But Top 5 All-Time? Maybe in another 5-7 years of consistent performance.

He had arguably the best season for a QB ever last year, but prior to that he had 30 TD once. Top 5 over a 6 year stretch is a nice run, but we all know how many titles he's won.

It's tough comparing a guy with 7 years played to guys with more than twice that, as who knows what will happen down the road for Manning, Brady, etc. If Manning keeps it up, add him to the list of candidates after 2010.

 
I think that Greatest of All-Time has to be explained a bit more.

If it is winning in the clutch game, and leading your team to victory at the Super Bowl [or equivalent Championship], then you have to consider ...

Johnny Unitas

Joe Montana

Terry Bradshaw

Tom Brady

Brett Favre

Troy Aikman

Kurt Warner

Bart Starr

Otto Graham

If it QB statistics compared to their peers, then you have to consider ...

Peyton Manning

Daunte Culpepper

Kurt Warner

Dan Marino

Joe Montana

John Elway

Warren Moon

Brett Favre

Johnny Unitas

Sammy Baugh

Sid Luckman

Otto Graham

Bobby Layne

Fran Tarkenton

Tobin Rote

Y.A. Tittle

Sonny Jurgensen

Daryle Lamonica

John Brodie

Steve Young

Randall Cunningham

Roger Staubach

Steve Grogan

Dan Fouts

For my money you have to narrow it down to the following when considering both facets:

Joe Montana

Terry Bradshaw

Tom Brady

Johnny Unitas

Otto Graham

In the end however, I give the nod to :

Otto Graham

He led the Browns to 10 straight championship games and they won 6 out of 10!

 
Definately not Favre, that's ridiculous.
While not everyone would pick Favre, I don't see why he is not an option.- Will be #2 all-time in passing yards in a few weeks.

- Already is #2 all-time in completions and passing TD

- 3 time MVP

- Super Bowl winner

- Only player in history to have back-to-back 35+ TD seasons (and he did it back-to-back-to-back)

- 4-time league leader in passing TD, twice in passing yards

- 8 time Pro Bowler

- GB has been .500 or better every year since Favre came to town in 1992, so 13 years in a row (but that streak could be in jeopardy this year).

- Led Packers to playoffs 10 times

- Consecutive games played streak at 200+, IIRC

Looks like a pretty viable candidate to me for best overall.
With thye exception of the 1 super-bowl win; he is behind Marino in every catregory. Sorry, but if your going statistics - you simply can't logically pick Farve.Editted to add the :rofl: that all of us are so football starved on a Wednesday to debate this.....
How many MVPs did Marino have? I don't think he had 3. And, didn't Favre win three straight MVPs? That's really impressive.
 
In the end however, I give the nod to :

Otto Graham

He led the Browns to 10 straight championship games and they won 6 out of 10!
People always throw in this stat. But, they weren't 10 NFL Championships, were they? Wasn't it like the All American Football Conference or something like that? Was that league any good?His passer rating took a dip his first couple years in the NFL as compared to the AAFC.

 
If I had to win a superbowl, and I could pick any QB of the last 20 years.Gotta be Montana. Then Brady. Then Elway.

 
Brady.

Lock this thread immediately...
Did I ever see Unitas, Bradshaw, Griese play? No, so how can I vote for them - listening to other people's opinions?I don't see any Rices, Taylors, Craigs, Dupers, Czonkas, Stallworths on the most recent Patriots squads, meaning Brady did the most with the least in the toughest era in football history. All I'm saying is that the argument can be made.....
Uhm, Brady was my choice.I said lock this thread because I know it's going to get ugly and there are countless others like it that the discussion can be moved to.
My bad. Sorry.
 
I said only Championship games purposely and did not specifically use the term NFL.In fact his first 6 Championship games were in the AAFC, and his last 4 were in the NFL.He won 4 times in the AAFC and 2 times in the NFL!Keep in mind that he took the Browns to the NFL Championship game the first year that they entered the league, and each year for 4 straight years!The AAFC was not the NFL by organization or affiliation, but there is no way that the Browns go to the Championship in either league without a quality team.

 
Any list must include Elway. Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams? Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB. And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.

 
I would say Montana is the best of the guys I have seen. Dan Marino does not even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Joe Montana. There is more to being a great QB than monster stats. Dan Marino is the most overrated QB of all time next to Peyton Manning. The quarterback position, while certainly having a lot to do with stats, is about winning and intangibles along with the talent to put up great stats. Dan Marino cared more about his stats than he ever did about winning as evidenced by his refusal to buy into Jimmy Johnson's system.

 
Any list must include Elway.  Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times.  Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams?  Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB.  And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Not to mention he has that "spolied brat" factor because he wouldn't report when initially drafted......that takes a little bit of the luster of the shine as well.
 
I would say Montana is the best of the guys I have seen. Dan Marino does not even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Joe Montana. There is more to being a great QB than monster stats. Dan Marino is the most overrated QB of all time next to Peyton Manning. The quarterback position, while certainly having a lot to do with stats, is about winning and intangibles along with the talent to put up great stats. Dan Marino cared more about his stats than he ever did about winning as evidenced by his refusal to buy into Jimmy Johnson's system.
:rolleyes: Marino cared plenty about winning, and he did lots of it.

It's one thing when people want to measure individuals by team accomplishments. That's dumb enough, but I'm used to it by now.

But to question Marino's character and leadership is just assinine beyond belief. Marino was just as poised in the clutch and just as good of a leader as any other QB mentioned in this thread. He's got the 2nd most 4th quarter comebacks in NFL history. I saw a few of them, and they were amazing.

 
Any list must include Elway. Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams? Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB. And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
 
If you want somebody for the regular season...maybe you can justify Favre as the #1 choice. Maybe. But if you are including the post-season in the discussion, you simply can't legitimately put him there. You'd be hard pressed to even put him in the top 5. People in Wisconsin (or other Packer fans) are the only people I've ever heard put Favre at #1. #5? #10?...yeah, sure, I could listen to that argument. But to have him at #1 is not looking at things objectively at all.

 
There's no fair way to evaluate. IMO, at a minimum, you have to break it down into 4 categories:Pre-1980 -- the game was played differently back then and even Marino would not have posted crazy stats.Post-1980 -- Air Coryell and Bill Walsh revolutionized the game of football, each in their own way.Emphasis on wins -- Montana is not a top statistical QB, nor is Bradshaw. Four rings each says a lot.Emphasis on stats -- Marino, Tarkenton before him (crossing categories here), Favre, etc. These guys put up the stats, and they won a lot of games, but can you consider a guy who won zero or maybe one SB ahead of someone with 3 or four rings?That said, I'll toss out some names that deserve consideration, and I'll ket you debate the particulars (in no particular order):Bart Starr - before my time, but he won a lotJohnny Unitas - see aboveFran Tarkenton - I was a child watching him, but he was the scrambling QB before they knew what a scrambling QB was. Oh, and 47000 yards passing in that era is sick.Roger Staubach - great leader, won games, won SBTerry Bradshaw - four Super Bowls. 'nuff saidJoe Montana - see aboveDan Fouts - epitomized what a passing QB should be for years. Held more than a few records when he retired.Warren Moon - statistically, great. Fell victim to poor circumstances more than a couple times.Troy Aikman - was nails in a big game. Very accurate, and 3 Super Bowls says a lot.John Elway - his early career was statistically very spotty. Then Shanahan came along and his stats and Super Bowl wins came. It's almost a tale of two careers with Elway.Dan Marino - the statistical benchmark for QBs, but always a "what if" in regards to the SB - "What if he had a RB? What if he were on this team?, etc."Jim Kelly - making it to four Super Bowls IN A ROW has to rank pretty high on the list of things that are tough to accomplish. Still, they lost them all. To be fair, the competition back then was a bit more stiff, IMO.Brett Favre has nice stats to go with his one SB ring. He's a sure-fire HoFer, but I doubt he makes the top 5 all-time, IMO. Tom Brady still has quite a few chapters to be written yet, so it's hard to say where he'll end up. At this point, I would say he's this generation's Troy Aikman - great team, great system, great situation, and he's certainly a great QB. But there will always be that question, like there was with Aikman - is it him or the team? If you put Brady on a currently mediocre team, does he raise them up?Manning has a lot to prove yet, but he's shaping up to be this generation's Marino (lots of stats, little substance). He has many years left though, so you can't say that yet.

 
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Any list must include Elway.  Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times.  Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams?  Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB.  And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
If you want to play that game...Favre is 11-9 in the post season with 33 TDs and 26 INTs.

Montana is 16-7 in the post season with 44 TDs and 21 INTs.

Elway is 14-8 in the post season with 27 TDs and 21 INTs.

There is a clear 1, 2, 3 among those guys.

 
Any list must include Elway.  Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times.  Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams?  Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB.  And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
Category................... Total* ..............All-time rank Game-saving drives..... 47 ........................1st

Wins by starting QB ....147 ........................1st

3,000-yard seasons ......12 ........................1st (tie)

Passing yards ........50,986........................ 2nd

Total offense......... 54,346........................ 2nd

Pass completions .....4,084........................ 2nd

TD passes.................. 296........................ 2nd

Oh yeah....Elway is TERRIBLEY overrated... :bs:

 
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Goodness, there is one answer and the rest battle for second. Some folks need to learn themselves some history. Johnny Unitas is the greatest QB ever. He invented and perfected what it means to be a QB. He was a passer, a thrower, a leader and a true winner that rose above eras, above history, even. There should be no question as to who the greatest is, and that is Johnny Unitas.Then probably Montana and Elway in that order. I might put Elway second because had he Rice to throw to, god only knows how good those teams would have been.

 
Any list must include Elway. Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams? Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB. And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
Category................... Total* ..............All-time rank Game-saving drives..... 47 ........................1st

Wins by starting QB ....147 ........................1st

3,000-yard seasons ......12 ........................1st (tie)

Passing yards ........50,986........................ 2nd

Total offense......... 54,346........................ 2nd

Pass completions .....4,084........................ 2nd

TD passes.................. 296........................ 2nd

Oh yeah....TERRIBLEY overrated... :bs:
Your rankings are out-of-date. Favre has more 3,000 yard seasons, completions, and TD passes, and will have more yards in a few weeks. He's pretty close in wins too, and better if you're counting post-season. Game-saving drives, not sure about that list but I'll give it to Elway there.
 
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Any list must include Elway.  Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times.  Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams?  Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB.  And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
Category................... Total* ..............All-time rank Game-saving drives..... 47 ........................1st

Wins by starting QB ....147 ........................1st

3,000-yard seasons ......12 ........................1st (tie)

Passing yards ........50,986........................ 2nd

Total offense......... 54,346........................ 2nd

Pass completions .....4,084........................ 2nd

TD passes.................. 296........................ 2nd

Oh yeah....TERRIBLEY overrated... :bs:
Your rankings are out-of-date. Favre has more 3,000 yard seasons, completions, and TD passes, and will have more yards in a few weeks. He's pretty close in wins too, better if you're counting post-season. Game-saving drives, no sure about that list but i'll give Elway that.
How is that possible? Elway has 14 post-season wins while Favre has 11.
 
Goodness, there is one answer and the rest battle for second. Some folks need to learn themselves some history.

Johnny Unitas is the greatest QB ever. He invented and perfected what it means to be a QB. He was a passer, a thrower, a leader and a true winner that rose above eras, above history, even. There should be no question as to who the greatest is, and that is Johnny Unitas.

Then probably Montana and Elway in that order. I might put Elway second because had he Rice to throw to, god only knows how good those teams would have been.
You can stop trying to pimp your FFA All-Time Team now.
 
Any list must include Elway. Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams? Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB. And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
Category................... Total* ..............All-time rank Game-saving drives..... 47 ........................1st

Wins by starting QB ....147 ........................1st

3,000-yard seasons ......12 ........................1st (tie)

Passing yards ........50,986........................ 2nd

Total offense......... 54,346........................ 2nd

Pass completions .....4,084........................ 2nd

TD passes.................. 296........................ 2nd

Oh yeah....TERRIBLEY overrated... :bs:
Your rankings are out-of-date. Favre has more 3,000 yard seasons, completions, and TD passes, and will have more yards in a few weeks. He's pretty close in wins too, better if you're counting post-season. Game-saving drives, no sure about that list but i'll give Elway that.
How is that possible? Elway has 14 post-season wins while Favre has 11.
If he was counting post-season in the 147 number.
 
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Any list must include Elway.  Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times.  Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams?  Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB.  And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
Category................... Total* ..............All-time rank Game-saving drives..... 47 ........................1st

Wins by starting QB ....147 ........................1st

3,000-yard seasons ......12 ........................1st (tie)

Passing yards ........50,986........................ 2nd

Total offense......... 54,346........................ 2nd

Pass completions .....4,084........................ 2nd

TD passes.................. 296........................ 2nd

Oh yeah....TERRIBLEY overrated... :bs:
Your rankings are out-of-date. Favre has more 3,000 yard seasons, completions, and TD passes, and will have more yards in a few weeks. He's pretty close in wins too, better if you're counting post-season. Game-saving drives, no sure about that list but i'll give Elway that.
How is that possible? Elway has 14 post-season wins while Favre has 11.
If he was counting post-season in the 147 number.
But unless you're adding Favre's post-season wins and not Elway's...then his statement is just wrong. If you don't include post-season wins, Favre is 3 games closer. If you do include them, he's 3 games further away. Either way you slice it, "(Favre's) pretty close in wins too, better if you're counting post-season" is incorrect.
 
Any list must include Elway.  Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times.  Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams?  Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB.  And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
Category................... Total* ..............All-time rank Game-saving drives..... 47 ........................1st

Wins by starting QB ....147 ........................1st

3,000-yard seasons ......12 ........................1st (tie)

Passing yards ........50,986........................ 2nd

Total offense......... 54,346........................ 2nd

Pass completions .....4,084........................ 2nd

TD passes.................. 296........................ 2nd

Oh yeah....TERRIBLEY overrated... :bs:
Your rankings are out-of-date. Favre has more 3,000 yard seasons, completions, and TD passes, and will have more yards in a few weeks. He's pretty close in wins too, and better if you're counting post-season. Game-saving drives, not sure about that list but I'll give it to Elway there.
Oh...my .... GOD>..That means.....that means that....oh damn...

That means that ELWAY WAS OVERRATED!!!

BFD...Favre moves ahead....I guess that means that Elway hits bottom?

I guess moving down to #3 in some of these categories blows my whole argument...

I can name at least ONE QB who beat Favre in a Superbowl...

Jeez....buy a clue.....

:11:

 
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Any list must include Elway. Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams? Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB. And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
Category................... Total* ..............All-time rank Game-saving drives..... 47 ........................1st

Wins by starting QB ....147 ........................1st

3,000-yard seasons ......12 ........................1st (tie)

Passing yards ........50,986........................ 2nd

Total offense......... 54,346........................ 2nd

Pass completions .....4,084........................ 2nd

TD passes.................. 296........................ 2nd

Oh yeah....TERRIBLEY overrated... :bs:
Your rankings are out-of-date. Favre has more 3,000 yard seasons, completions, and TD passes, and will have more yards in a few weeks. He's pretty close in wins too, better if you're counting post-season. Game-saving drives, no sure about that list but i'll give Elway that.
How is that possible? Elway has 14 post-season wins while Favre has 11.
If he was counting post-season in the 147 number.
But unless you're adding Favre's post-season wins and not Elway's...then his statement is just wrong. If you don't include post-season wins, Favre is 3 games closer. If you do include them, he's 3 games further away. Either way you slice it, "(Favre's) pretty close in wins too, better if you're counting post-season" is incorrect.
Favre has 137 regular season wins and 11 postseason wins.If Elway's 147 includes postseason (Varmint didn't specify), then Favre has more with 148. If it does not include postseason, Elway has more career wins by far.

What about this is so hard to follow?

 
Any list must include Elway. Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams? Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB. And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
Category................... Total* ..............All-time rank Game-saving drives..... 47 ........................1st

Wins by starting QB ....147 ........................1st

3,000-yard seasons ......12 ........................1st (tie)

Passing yards ........50,986........................ 2nd

Total offense......... 54,346........................ 2nd

Pass completions .....4,084........................ 2nd

TD passes.................. 296........................ 2nd

Oh yeah....TERRIBLEY overrated... :bs:
Your rankings are out-of-date. Favre has more 3,000 yard seasons, completions, and TD passes, and will have more yards in a few weeks. He's pretty close in wins too, and better if you're counting post-season. Game-saving drives, not sure about that list but I'll give it to Elway there.
Oh...my .... GOD>..That means.....that means that....oh damn...

That means that ELWAY WAS OVERRATED!!!

BFD...Favre moves ahead....I guess that means that Elway hits bottom?

I guess moving down to #3 in some of these categories blows my whole argument...

I can name at least ONE QB who beat Favre in a Superbowl...

Jeez....buy a clue.....

:11:
I just thought it should be pointed out that those numbers are wrong, not that being a step behind Favre means he's overrated.My reasoning is similar to CalBear's above.

 
Any list must include Elway.  Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times.  Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams?  Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB.  And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
Category................... Total* ..............All-time rank Game-saving drives..... 47 ........................1st

Wins by starting QB ....147 ........................1st

3,000-yard seasons ......12 ........................1st (tie)

Passing yards ........50,986........................ 2nd

Total offense......... 54,346........................ 2nd

Pass completions .....4,084........................ 2nd

TD passes.................. 296........................ 2nd

Oh yeah....TERRIBLEY overrated... :bs:
Your rankings are out-of-date. Favre has more 3,000 yard seasons, completions, and TD passes, and will have more yards in a few weeks. He's pretty close in wins too, better if you're counting post-season. Game-saving drives, no sure about that list but i'll give Elway that.
How is that possible? Elway has 14 post-season wins while Favre has 11.
If he was counting post-season in the 147 number.
But unless you're adding Favre's post-season wins and not Elway's...then his statement is just wrong. If you don't include post-season wins, Favre is 3 games closer. If you do include them, he's 3 games further away. Either way you slice it, "(Favre's) pretty close in wins too, better if you're counting post-season" is incorrect.
Favre has 137 regular season wins and 11 postseason wins.If Elway's 147 includes postseason (Varmint didn't specify), then Favre has more with 148. If it does not include postseason, Elway has more career wins by far.

What about this is so hard to follow?
It's not hard at all. We are just using different language to say the same thing. It's like the 3 guys that go to the hotel riddle. Both of our statements are correct because we're setting up our own logic to back our position.
 
Any list must include Elway. Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams? Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB. And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
Category................... Total* ..............All-time rank Game-saving drives..... 47 ........................1st

Wins by starting QB ....147 ........................1st

3,000-yard seasons ......12 ........................1st (tie)

Passing yards ........50,986........................ 2nd

Total offense......... 54,346........................ 2nd

Pass completions .....4,084........................ 2nd

TD passes.................. 296........................ 2nd

Oh yeah....TERRIBLEY overrated... :bs:
Your rankings are out-of-date. Favre has more 3,000 yard seasons, completions, and TD passes, and will have more yards in a few weeks. He's pretty close in wins too, better if you're counting post-season. Game-saving drives, no sure about that list but i'll give Elway that.
How is that possible? Elway has 14 post-season wins while Favre has 11.
If he was counting post-season in the 147 number.
But unless you're adding Favre's post-season wins and not Elway's...then his statement is just wrong. If you don't include post-season wins, Favre is 3 games closer. If you do include them, he's 3 games further away. Either way you slice it, "(Favre's) pretty close in wins too, better if you're counting post-season" is incorrect.
Favre has 137 regular season wins and 11 postseason wins.If Elway's 147 includes postseason (Varmint didn't specify), then Favre has more with 148. If it does not include postseason, Elway has more career wins by far.

What about this is so hard to follow?
It's not hard at all. We are just using different language to say the same thing. It's like the 3 guys that go to the hotel riddle. Both of our statements are correct because we're setting up our own logic to back our position.
Right.. actually I think you just misunderstood my original statement. I'll try to be more clear next time.
 
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Any list must include Elway.  Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times.  Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams?  Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB.  And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
No...but agreeing here that Elway is overrated says that you think so...
 
Any list must include Elway. Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams? Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB. And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
No...but agreeing here that Elway is overrated says that you think so...
I said my reasoning is similar to CalBear's.. TAN and Varmint, are you guys :fishing: ??

 
Any list must include Elway.  Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times.  Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams?  Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB.  And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
No...but agreeing here that Elway is overrated says that you think so...
I said my reasoning is similar to CalBear's.. TAN and Varmint, are you guys :fishing: ??
Well, CalBear said...."Elway is the most overrated QB of all time"...Then YOU said...."Well, at least we agree on something"

That kinda leads me to believe that you agree that even though he is ranked at #1-#3 in a LOT of very important stats, Elway is overrated.

Am I reading it wrong?

 
All of the categories where Elway's stats are good are compilation stats. If you actually look at his stats relative to each other (completion percentage, TDs vs INTs), or relative to his peers (Elway never finished #1 for the season, and only finished better than #5 three times in 16 seasons), they are not so impressive. Fourth-quarter comebacks is a particularly bogus stat, as all it measures is how often you're behind in the fourth quarter.Here are some numbers in comparitive stats:Favre was #1 or #2 QB for five years in a row (1994-98); #1 three years in a row.Completion percentage: 61.5% (Elway 56.9%)TD/INT ratio: 1.65 (Elway 1.32)It's not close.

 
Any list must include Elway. Even discounting the Terrell Davis years where he won his rings, Elway took a team of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Seriously, name the running backs and receivers on those teams? Those Denver teams would have been 6-10 at best with an average QB. And before you claim bias, I'll tell you that I've been a Raider fan for 30 years.
Elway is the most overrated QB of all time. His career playoff stats are 54% completions, 27 TD 21 INT. In Super Bowls he only completed 50% of his passes with 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 10 years into his career he had 55% completions and as many INTs as TDs. His Broncos passing records are all being beaten by Jake freakin' Plummer. Denver had 6 Pro Bowlers in 1986, and the Denver defense was top-10 in 1987 and top-5 in 1989 (#1 in points allowed). That covers the Super Bowl losses. In the Super Bowl wins, Denver had a top defense and a 2000-total-yard RB. They won in 1997 despite his poor play, and then a team with 8 Pro Bowlers, a 2000-yard rusher and two 1000-yard receivers managed to repeat.
Well, at least we agree on something.
No...but agreeing here that Elway is overrated says that you think so...
I said my reasoning is similar to CalBear's.. TAN and Varmint, are you guys :fishing: ??
Well, CalBear said...."Elway is the most overrated QB of all time"...Then YOU said...."Well, at least we agree on something"

That kinda leads me to believe that you agree that even though he is ranked at #1-#3 in a LOT of very important stats, Elway is overrated.

Am I reading it wrong?
After I corrected your numbers, you said, "BFD...Favre moves ahead....I guess that means that Elway hits bottom?" To which I clarified, "I just thought it should be pointed out that those numbers are wrong, not that being a step behind Favre means he's overrated. My reasoning [for thinking Elway is overrated] is similar to CalBear's above."Added [for thinking Elway is overrated] to ease your comprehension. Are we done now?

 
If we're simply debating Elway vs. Favre, I'll take Elway every time. Yup, some of Favre's stats are better, percentage wise. But I'll also argue that Favre's supporting cast on offense was significantly better than Elway's. For most of his career, Elway's supporting cast on offense was Shannon Sharpe and a bunch of journeymen.Oh, and if you want to argue that taking supporting cast into account isn't fair, then I'll simply point to Elway's 2 Super Bowl rings to Favre's 1, and Elway's 5 conference championships to Favre's 2.

 
If we're simply debating Elway vs. Favre, I'll take Elway every time. Yup, some of Favre's stats are better, percentage wise. But I'll also argue that Favre's supporting cast on offense was significantly better than Elway's. For most of his career, Elway's supporting cast on offense was Shannon Sharpe and a bunch of journeymen.

Oh, and if you want to argue that taking supporting cast into account isn't fair, then I'll simply point to Elway's 2 Super Bowl rings to Favre's 1, and Elway's 5 conference championships to Favre's 2.
What supporting cast has Favre had? Elway had a league MVP running back--the only MVP Green Bay has had is Favre himself. Green Bay has never had more than six Pro Bowlers since Favre arrived; the Broncos had six once, eight once, and nine once during Elway's time. The only potential HoF player who overlapped with Favre was Reggie White.
 
Tom Brady still has quite a few chapters to be written yet, so it's hard to say where he'll end up. At this point, I would say he's this generation's Troy Aikman - great team, great system, great situation, and he's certainly a great QB. But there will always be that question, like there was with Aikman - is it him or the team? If you put Brady on a currently mediocre team, does he raise them up?
The Patriots were worse than the Bengals until Bledsoe was injured and Brady was put in.Bledsoe is doing fantastic this year. And he wasn't too bad with the Patriots. Brady just added a new dimension to the team and is a PLAYMAKER. Watching him play for a few years, I can say that no one can outdo the man. He has the physical aspect and mental aspect of QBing down, and fights his team out of holes (he's on pace to SHATTER the come from behind victory record).

BTW, he's STILL undefeated in OT. *knock on wood*

 
Tom Brady ... THe record The wins in the regular season The wins in the post seasonThe Rings and Titles The composure during the game and the "last drive wins" he managedand on top of all this .... HE IS STILL YOUNG!

 
If we're simply debating Elway vs. Favre, I'll take Elway every time.  Yup, some of Favre's stats are better, percentage wise.  But I'll also argue that Favre's supporting cast on offense was significantly better than Elway's.  For most of his career, Elway's supporting cast on offense was Shannon Sharpe and a bunch of journeymen.

Oh, and if you want to argue that taking supporting cast into account isn't fair, then I'll simply point to Elway's 2 Super Bowl rings to Favre's 1, and Elway's 5 conference championships to Favre's 2.
What supporting cast has Favre had? Elway had a league MVP running back--the only MVP Green Bay has had is Favre himself. Green Bay has never had more than six Pro Bowlers since Favre arrived; the Broncos had six once, eight once, and nine once during Elway's time. The only potential HoF player who overlapped with Favre was Reggie White.
Favre had an 1800 yard/20 TD running back and couldn't get the job done. When Elway had that, he took advantage.
 

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