Has Messi surpassed the greats yet?
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Greatest soccer player of all time (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Aaron Rudnicki
- Start date
Jethro Q. Walrustitty
Footballguy
Abby Wambach, although Franz Beckenbauer is part of one of my all time favorite Monty Python sketches.
Time Kibitzer
Footballguy
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Interesting discussion but obviously highly subjective with all the different variables. For me, Messi is not even the best Argentinian player of all time given Maradonnas accomplishments for club and country.
glock
"Don't grumble, give a whistle!"
Pele: 1958 World Cup
Talk about getting mugged. It was the only way he could be to try to slow him down...
Talk about getting mugged. It was the only way he could be to try to slow him down...
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ODoyleRules
Footballguy
scoobygang
Footballguy
Messi will rightly need to have international success in order to obviously eclipse Maradonna. FWIW, it's almost impossible to fairly evaluate Pele. From YouTube, you can really see what Maradonna and Cruyuff had that would still translate into today's game (and to a lesser extent, Der Kaiser as you need to project him as a midfielder instead of the distributing Sweeper he played as in the 70s). I watch YouTube clips of Pele and I see a lot of shambolic defending and just atrocious goaltending. The game really was different at least up until the mid 80s or so. I have no doubt that Messi is probably more talented than anyone in the history of the game. But comparisons like this are about legacies. His club legacy is as strong as anyone's already. He might never have the international legacy because it's not as if Argentina is producing great defenders and keepers or tactical geniuses on the sidelines.
The Gator
Footballguy
This is silly thinking He'll get two, maybe three chances to do what only 5ish countries have ever done? The only thing holding him back is international game. He has to perform better to be the best evar. That said, he does not have to WIN the cup to be considered the best.His supporting cast is good enough that he needs to lead Argentina to a World Cup.
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Who said otherwise?
Ja'loctopus!
Footballguy
I did. Every one of them. Consistently.
scoobygang
Footballguy
I think he will need to win one. If only because Maradonna carried a weak team to a World Cup. There's a good argument that club football SHOULD matter far more than international football. I think that's probably true, but I don't think we'll ever call a soccer player without a World Cup the best ever. No matter how many Baloon D'Ors or Champions League titles he wins.
Not if he comes from a traditional power like Argentina. But if Messi were from Peru I don't think we'd hold it against him.
scoobygang
Footballguy
I think the best argument for Maradonna is that he didn't have teammates nearly as good as Pele, Beckenbauer, or even Cruyuff. I can't name another Argentine from 86 in the same league as Gerd Muller, Johan Neeskens. Much less Garrincha in 58 (and Rivelino and Jairzinho in 1970).
jonessed
Footballguy
Seems like it would be a reasonable requirement to choosing between them. An educated choice anyway.Perhaps I will see if I can find a link to someone who has seen them all and tried this exercise.
You really don't need great teammates when you can use your hands.That being said, Ruggeri, Burruchaga and Valdano were nothing to sniff at.
El Floppo
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
Agreed.He needs to start scoring goals for country though, and helping them win something with those goals. When Messi plays for Argentina, it doesn't seem like they're significantly better as a team. And I've seen him play live for them.This is silly thinking
He'll get two, maybe three chances to do what only 5ish countries have ever done?
The only thing holding him back is international game. He has to perform better to be the best evar. That said, he does not have to WIN the cup to be considered the best.
Nobody here will agree me, but I'd actually put Zidane ahead of Messi at this point in Messi's career.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I am conflicted on this.
On the one hand, I believe, even at his relatively young age, that he is one of the best club players to have ever played the sport, and will be considered the best club player within the next 4 years.
But as so many have mentioned, he needs to do more on the international stage. Since he has played for Argentina, they have never won the Copa America, and have not proceeded past the quarter finals of the World Cup.
Every other player on this list has International Championships on their resume (or at least a WC final as in Cruyff's case).
So until I see at least one Copa America title and one WC semi final or better appearance, I can not add my vote for him.
On the one hand, I believe, even at his relatively young age, that he is one of the best club players to have ever played the sport, and will be considered the best club player within the next 4 years.
But as so many have mentioned, he needs to do more on the international stage. Since he has played for Argentina, they have never won the Copa America, and have not proceeded past the quarter finals of the World Cup.
Every other player on this list has International Championships on their resume (or at least a WC final as in Cruyff's case).
So until I see at least one Copa America title and one WC semi final or better appearance, I can not add my vote for him.
Major
Footballguy
I could get behind that. Zidane has won a World Cup and one of the greatest to ever play the game.Agreed.He needs to start scoring goals for country though, and helping them win something with those goals. When Messi plays for Argentina, it doesn't seem like they're significantly better as a team. And I've seen him play live for them.This is silly thinking
He'll get two, maybe three chances to do what only 5ish countries have ever done?
The only thing holding him back is international game. He has to perform better to be the best evar. That said, he does not have to WIN the cup to be considered the best.
Nobody here will agree me, but I'd actually put Zidane ahead of Messi at this point in Messi's career.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Arg is barely qualifying for the WC too at that.I'd be happy to have him in the conversation even if he just started scoring a ton of goals/assists for the squad with them still not winning anything. So far, he has 19 goals and 20 assists in 66 appearances- that's pretty damn good for a pretty damn good player... but we're talking about best ever, so- no. For comparison, Pele had 77 goals in 99 games for Brazil.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
This might be of interest concerning the topic in this thread. We chatted about this in the soccer thread when it occurred.
==================================
CNNSI asked 10 writers to participate in the Ultimate Soccer Draft, where every player in history was available to be drafted in a ladder draft.
16 total rounds for a 16 player roster.
CNNSI then worked with the makers of Football Manager to try and create a realistic representation of these ten teams playing an 18 game balanced schedule.
Fun stuff. Here are all the teams and the simulation results
http://www.cnnsi.com/soccer/draft/ultimate/draft-results.html?sct=sc_t11_a1
==================================
CNNSI asked 10 writers to participate in the Ultimate Soccer Draft, where every player in history was available to be drafted in a ladder draft.
16 total rounds for a 16 player roster.
CNNSI then worked with the makers of Football Manager to try and create a realistic representation of these ten teams playing an 18 game balanced schedule.
Fun stuff. Here are all the teams and the simulation results
http://www.cnnsi.com/soccer/draft/ultimate/draft-results.html?sct=sc_t11_a1
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
If we are just looking at the international level, I don't think we need to even look at Pele. Even Ronaldo was arguably more impressive than Messi was (62 goals in 98 games) and plenty of international titles: 2 WC's and 2 Copa America titles. One of the WC's though is meaningless since he was only there in spirit on the 94 team, he did not play only being 17 at the time.
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NewlyRetired
Footballguy
This is true. While it is early yet in qualifying, the fact that Brazil is not involved in qualifying should see Argie have an easier time of it than they have shown so far.I think we both know they will qualify but I bet it will be more scary than any of us would have guesses when qualifying started.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
For as much as many of us appear to be slightly knocking Messi, it is worth mentioning that it is spectacular that he is only 24 years old and very much deserves to be in this debate.
=Smackdown=
Footballguy
Pele
and it's not even remotely close
and it's not even remotely close
scoobygang
Footballguy
Who has a better than .5 goals per game average internationally in the modern game? You just can't compare those numbers. Pele (and Romario) also both reportedly scored more than 1000 league goals, but they did so in Brazil. Pele scored a very impressive 6 goals in four games in the 1958 World Cup. Awesome. Except Just Fontaine scored 13 in six games in the same competition. It was a different game.The comparison to Ronaldo is probably more fair. If he had kept up his fitness, he would be in the conversation.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I almost think that this question needs to be broken up into two parts, international and club as they are two distinct animals.
I always feel strange that some one as gifted as any person who ever played is never in these conversations simply because he was from a poor soccer playing country, as George Best was.
I always feel strange that some one as gifted as any person who ever played is never in these conversations simply because he was from a poor soccer playing country, as George Best was.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Only one I can think of off the top of my head is someone like Klose. And obviously we are talking about a pure striker, not a hybrid attacking player like Messi who has many more dimensions to his game.
The Gator
Footballguy
Villa? Drogba?Found this list;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_international_association_football_goal_scorers_by_countryLooks like 7 with 2 guys sitting at .49
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NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Good list!
scoobygang
Footballguy
George Best wouldn't make it by virtue of his club career though. He won two league titles and one European title (playing with two other European players of the year in Denis Law and Bobby Charlton). His club career isn't as impressive as Puksas, Di Stefano, or Eusebio. Or even Kenny Dalglish, who had similar statistics while winning five league titles and three European Championships.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Now imagine if Best was actually sober more than 50% of the time
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
What is the common cut off for a date for the modern game? Is there a general consensus?
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The Gator
Footballguy
Sorry, I didn't mean 7 total. I meant 7 active guys. Good question, though.
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scoobygang
Footballguy
Maybe go from the introduction of the back pass rule in 1992. In any case, I think there was a serious difference in the sophistication of defensive footabll and goalkeeping from the 70s to the 80s. We'll never see the days of the libero again. Where Beckenbauer could play sweeper and still be responsible for initiating his team's offense.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
There are probably couple of active players, like Klose who are above a .5 but don't show up on the list due to its specifics. Then again, that may be balanced by the list considering someone like Stern John active when I don't think he has played in a while
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
That is a pretty good date I think. This was also around the time frame that the offside rule was changed to even is on, wasn't it?
scoobygang
Footballguy
The list only includes a country's all time leading scorer. Klose won't show up because there's only one Der Bomber.There are probably couple of active players, like Klose who are above a .5 but don't show up on the list due to its specifics. Then again, that may be balanced by the list considering someone like Stern John active when I don't think he has played in a while
Mister CIA
Footballguy
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Yup, I know that. That is why I said the bolded above.The list only includes a country's all time leading scorer. Klose won't show up because there's only one Der Bomber.There are probably couple of active players, like Klose who are above a .5 but don't show up on the list due to its specifics. Then again, that may be balanced by the list considering someone like Stern John active when I don't think he has played in a while
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
I don't feel I'm well-enough versed in the older generation of players, so I will have to abstain from voting here, sadly.
I will say, though, that while George Best surely wouldn't make the cut, Andy's overall point has merit, I think. Should international play weigh more in the analysis because Messi plays for a strong Argentina team? Would you knock a guy like George Weah or Samuel Eto'o down a notch because they've never won anything internationally? Don't get me wrong, I am NOT in any way implying that those two should be in the discussion, I was just trying to think of talented players who had good club careers but relatively anonymous international careers. I think if you take it to its conclusion, you're forced to analyze the impact of the other individual players in the squad, which IMO is nearly impossible to do.
One thing that I do think is important to note about Messi in particular is just how far ahead of the field he truly is at this point. I haven't been following the game as long as some guys have, so I don't know how it stacks up against some of the older players, but Messi is really unparalleled, IMO, and has been for probably close to 3 years now. There are some ridiculously-talented, arguably-all-time-great players playing today - Ronaldo, Xavi, Iniesta, etc. - and Messi is on an entirely different level....something that is unique for my diehard-soccer-following lifetime, which is only about 12 years.
I will say, though, that while George Best surely wouldn't make the cut, Andy's overall point has merit, I think. Should international play weigh more in the analysis because Messi plays for a strong Argentina team? Would you knock a guy like George Weah or Samuel Eto'o down a notch because they've never won anything internationally? Don't get me wrong, I am NOT in any way implying that those two should be in the discussion, I was just trying to think of talented players who had good club careers but relatively anonymous international careers. I think if you take it to its conclusion, you're forced to analyze the impact of the other individual players in the squad, which IMO is nearly impossible to do.
One thing that I do think is important to note about Messi in particular is just how far ahead of the field he truly is at this point. I haven't been following the game as long as some guys have, so I don't know how it stacks up against some of the older players, but Messi is really unparalleled, IMO, and has been for probably close to 3 years now. There are some ridiculously-talented, arguably-all-time-great players playing today - Ronaldo, Xavi, Iniesta, etc. - and Messi is on an entirely different level....something that is unique for my diehard-soccer-following lifetime, which is only about 12 years.
The Gator
Footballguy
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
That's my point
scoobygang
Footballguy
David Villa hasn't been better with them and he was already a top ten player.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Some of these factors also lead me to think an argument could be made that Maradonna's accomplishments at Napoli are equally or more impressive than what Messi has done and is doing at FCB.I don't feel I'm well-enough versed in the older generation of players, so I will have to abstain from voting here, sadly.I will say, though, that while George Best surely wouldn't make the cut, Andy's overall point has merit, I think. Should international play weigh more in the analysis because Messi plays for a strong Argentina team? Would you knock a guy like George Weah or Samuel Eto'o down a notch because they've never won anything internationally? Don't get me wrong, I am NOT in any way implying that those two should be in the discussion, I was just trying to think of talented players who had good club careers but relatively anonymous international careers. I think if you take it to its conclusion, you're forced to analyze the impact of the other individual players in the squad, which IMO is nearly impossible to dne thing that I do think is important to note about Messi in particular is just how far ahead of the field he truly is at this point. I haven't been following the game as long as some guys have, so I don't know how it stacks up against some of the older players, but Messi is really unparalleled, IMO, and has been for probably close to 3 years now. There are some ridiculously-talented, arguably-all-time-great players playing today - Ronaldo, Xavi, Iniesta, etc. - and Messi is on an entirely different level....something that is unique for my diehard-soccer-following lifetime, which is only about 12 years.
