Greece Financial Crisis Thread (1 Viewer)

[Politician Spock]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

 

[TripItUp]

I think you need to let Greece fail to send a stern warning to Spain etc.

I wonder what percentage of the population will come the US or other countries illegally as the fallout plays out. AT 25% unemployment I'm sure this has already started, just not sure where they have been migrating to.

 

[timschochet]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

 

[timschochet]

I think you need to let Greece fail to send a stern warning to Spain etc.

.

I don't understand this logic. Even if Greece is bailed out they will still be facing years of economic misery and high unemployment. That should be warning enough for other countries to try and avoid that situation.

 

[Politician Spock]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.

Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

And then everyone was shocked when it looked like the world would end, so they backed off 'moral hazard' and started bailing everything and everyone out.

 

[jonessed]

I think you need to let Greece fail to send a stern warning to Spain etc.

I wonder what percentage of the population will come the US or other countries illegally as the fallout plays out. AT 25% unemployment I'm sure this has already started, just not sure where they have been migrating to.

The problem with Greece is they seriously cooked their books to make it into the EU.

Their economy is largely cash-based in order to avoid taxes and the government is nepotistic and corrupt. It can't be fixed. It's going to be a never-ending money pit for the rest of the EU.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

Hank was no dummy... Still remember those good old days with the nail biting weekends.

 

[Politician Spock]

And then everyone was shocked when it looked like the world would end, so they backed off 'moral hazard' and started bailing everything and everyone out.

EXACTLY!!!

 

[Short Corner]

After reading more and more about this situation, I have come to the conclusion that the best alternative is for Germany and the EU to soften their stance, to send more money to Greece without insisting on further austerity and to hope that Greece's economy can eventually grow its way out of debt. And Obama should actively try to push Merkel towards this solution, even offering to help if need be.

This is not a question of right or wrong or whether Greece deserves help. Whether they deserve it or not, I believe it's to our benefit that they get it.

Feel free to take those Greek bonds off of the ECB's hands.

 

[timschochet]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

 

[timschochet]

After reading more and more about this situation, I have come to the conclusion that the best alternative is for Germany and the EU to soften their stance, to send more money to Greece without insisting on further austerity and to hope that Greece's economy can eventually grow its way out of debt. And Obama should actively try to push Merkel towards this solution, even offering to help if need be.

This is not a question of right or wrong or whether Greece deserves help. Whether they deserve it or not, I believe it's to our benefit that they get it.

Feel free to take those Greek bonds off of the ECB's hands.

Oh I can't afford it myself. Has to be a collective effort, you know.

 

[Short Corner]

After reading more and more about this situation, I have come to the conclusion that the best alternative is for Germany and the EU to soften their stance, to send more money to Greece without insisting on further austerity and to hope that Greece's economy can eventually grow its way out of debt. And Obama should actively try to push Merkel towards this solution, even offering to help if need be.

This is not a question of right or wrong or whether Greece deserves help. Whether they deserve it or not, I believe it's to our benefit that they get it.

Feel free to take those Greek bonds off of the ECB's hands.

Oh I can't afford it myself. Has to be a collective effort, you know.

So you'd have no problem if the US bought them at a discount?

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

I think after Lehman they started aiming for "orderly failures" as the best scenario, if such a thing is possible.

 

[Short Corner]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

Should have been done at the get go. Let the market solve the problem.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

Should have been done at the get go. Let the market solve the problem.

I'm sure the Greece bailout was done in the best interest of the European banks.

 

[Short Corner]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

Should have been done at the get go. Let the market solve the problem.

I'm sure the Greece bailout was done in the best interest of the European banks.

People seem to think that the ECB and it's terms made it worse for the Greeks. Had they not stepped in Greece would not have been able to sell its bonds at any price and that will probably be the case if they break terms with the ECB and leave the EZ.

 

[shader]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

Greece won't fail if there was a default. They will get hit with a huge depression, things will be awful for a year, and then they will rebound, be out of debt, and have a healthy economy.

The EU knows this, and ultimately don't want Greece taking this route, because they don't want to be defaulted on. They are hoping that Greece can somehow grow their way out of debt.

 

[Slapdash]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

You don't recall correctly at all

 

[timschochet]

"Let the market solve it."

That simply doesn't work. We live in a world in which governments regulate markets, in which governments, including our own, subsidize certain industries at the expense of others. In which governments are heavily involved and everything that happens has consequences.

Perhaps we'd all be better off living in a free market world. But there's no way to get there from here. And it's absolutely frustrating that people keep up this pretense and constantly respond to every economic crisis with this knee jerk reaction "let the market solve it". The market can't solve it.

 

[jonessed]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

Why do you see these as similar situations?

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

Should have been done at the get go. Let the market solve the problem.

I'm sure the Greece bailout was done in the best interest of the European banks.

People seem to think that the ECB and it's terms made it worse for the Greeks. Had they not stepped in Greece would not have been able to sell its bonds at any price and that will probably be the case if they break terms with the ECB and leave the EZ.

One of the conditions for the bailout was large portion of Greece's military spending must go to Europe. Greece is only 1% of the Eurozone economy but 15% of Germany's arms sales are exported to Greece.

 

[TripItUp]

Are you Greek Tim?

 

[timschochet]

Are you Greek Tim?

Opaaa!!!!No.

 

[timschochet]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

Why do you see these as similar situations?

I hear many of the same people on either side making many of the same arguments.

 

[Politician Spock]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

Do you think letting Greece go will send the EU and/or the Euro into the abyss?

If not, then bailing out Greece would result in more harm than good.

In hindsight, Paulson was probably wrong to let Lehman Bothers fail, as the situation was worse than he knew at the moment. That doesn't however mean it's wrong to let Greece fail. They are two different situations.

If the EU and Euro can survive a post-Greece failure, then they should do to Greece what Paulson did to Lehman Brothers. We may not know how dire the real situation is until afterwards, much like Paulson couldn't know prior to Lehman Brothers failure. No one has full 100% insight to how all the dominos are setup. A lot of that knowledge is unknown until they start falling.

 

[jonessed]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

Why do you see these as similar situations?

I hear many of the same people on either side making many of the same arguments.

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

Why do you see these as similar situations?

 

[Short Corner]

"Let the market solve it."

That simply doesn't work. We live in a world in which governments regulate markets, in which governments, including our own, subsidize certain industries at the expense of others. In which governments are heavily involved and everything that happens has consequences.

Perhaps we'd all be better off living in a free market world. But there's no way to get there from here. And it's absolutely frustrating that people keep up this pretense and constantly respond to every economic crisis with this knee jerk reaction "let the market solve it". The market can't solve it.

There is no truer market than the bond market. If you are higher risk then you must pay the price a la higher interest rates. When you don't pay back your debts....I think you get the picture. A government entity stepping in generally doesn't help.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

"Let the market solve it."

That simply doesn't work. We live in a world in which governments regulate markets, in which governments, including our own, subsidize certain industries at the expense of others. In which governments are heavily involved and everything that happens has consequences.

Perhaps we'd all be better off living in a free market world. But there's no way to get there from here. And it's absolutely frustrating that people keep up this pretense and constantly respond to every economic crisis with this knee jerk reaction "let the market solve it". The market can't solve it.

There is no truer market than the bond market. If you are higher risk then you must pay the price a la higher interest rates. When you don't pay back your debts....I think you get the picture. A government entity stepping in generally doesn't help.

Anyone who learned pv=nrt knows: the Gods will remain angry until someone falls into the volcano. Some push and shove is to be expected.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

You gotta love the absent minded professor.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-07/everyone-is-trying-to-decode-this-photo-of-the-greek-s-finance-minister-s-handwritten-notes

 

[James Daulton]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

 

[Sammy3469]

Look when we chose to bail out Wall Street and General Motors we didn't spend time wondering what other big companies would demand bailouts in the future. We did what we had to in order to avoid making things much worse, and it was the right decision.

Actually, yes we did. The government let Lehman Brothers file for bankruptcy for that exact reason. The bailouts were a last resort. It was either bail them out, or fall into the abyss.

IIRC Lehman Brothers was pretty sudden. If Lehman had been able to survive another few weeks it would have been saved by TARP. There was never a deliberate decision to let it fail.

Google Lehman Brothers Moral Hazard.Hank Paulson was very concerned about the "moral hazard" of bailing out Lehman Brothers, and as such yes did in fact let it fail.

OK I'll accept this point. But still they did choose ultimately to do a bailout as you acknowledge yourself. So is it really in our best interests just to let Greece fail?

Greece won't fail if there was a default. They will get hit with a huge depression, things will be awful for a year, and then they will rebound, be out of debt, and have a healthy economy.

The EU knows this, and ultimately don't want Greece taking this route, because they don't want to be defaulted on. They are hoping that Greece can somehow grow their way out of debt.

Umm...Greece (and much of southern Europe) has been in a depression for years now. Things have been awful (well as awful as it can be on the Mediterranean) for years. I agree the only way to solve the issue is to get them growing again, but nothing the austerity minded German's have done the past few years has aided that cause.

 

[jonessed]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

With no outside funding to prop up their government all of their social programs would cease to function. It would be like austerity on crack. They would lose all of their EU trade benefits as well as the stability of the Euro. Massive inflation would be a given. Dogs and cats living together. You get the picture.

It would be quite ugly. Complete economic collapse

 

[Chemical X]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

what money do they use once the euro is not their currency? the drachma that doesn't exist or olives? the currency would be devalued and then be prone to hyper inflation, making staples of life unaffordable, especially for a populous of 25% unemployed, which would rise. all money would leave the country to other markets too.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

With no outside funding to prop up their government all of their social programs would cease to function. It would be like austerity on crack. They would lose all of their EU trade benefits as well as the stability of the Euro. Massive inflation would be a given. Dogs and cats living together. You get the picture.

It would be quite ugly. Complete economic collapse

And then once the drachma was devalued they'd recover.

 

[dickey moe]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

With no outside funding to prop up their government all of their social programs would cease to function. It would be like austerity on crack. They would lose all of their EU trade benefits as well as the stability of the Euro. Massive inflation would be a given. Dogs and cats living together. You get the picture.It would be quite ugly. Complete economic collapse

It's either a choice of this with plenty of intense near-term pain, or death by a thousand cuts over the long-term via debt slavery. There will be no good way out of this.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Russia's gonna step in, Putin has already met with Tsipras.

Putin just wanna know if he was serious about the F. EU.

Russia's gonna step in, Putin has already met with Tsipras.

Russia's not going to bail out Greece. They have their own very serious economic problems to deal with.

Putin showed up in Greece yesterday.

 

[jonessed]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

With no outside funding to prop up their government all of their social programs would cease to function. It would be like austerity on crack. They would lose all of their EU trade benefits as well as the stability of the Euro. Massive inflation would be a given. Dogs and cats living together. You get the picture.It would be quite ugly. Complete economic collapse

It's either a choice of this with plenty of intense near-term pain, or death by a thousand cuts over the long-term via debt slavery. There will be no good way out of this.

I think that's a bit misleading. I don't believe the pain would be entirely short-term. It could take a decade or more to rebuild their economy. Nobody really knows.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

With no outside funding to prop up their government all of their social programs would cease to function. It would be like austerity on crack. They would lose all of their EU trade benefits as well as the stability of the Euro. Massive inflation would be a given. Dogs and cats living together. You get the picture.It would be quite ugly. Complete economic collapse

It's either a choice of this with plenty of intense near-term pain, or death by a thousand cuts over the long-term via debt slavery. There will be no good way out of this.

I think that's a bit misleading. I don't believe the pain would be entirely short-term. It could take a decade or more to rebuild their economy. Nobody really knows.

The people of Greece already voted on whether they want to go through that pain on their own or someone else's terms.

 

[jonessed]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

With no outside funding to prop up their government all of their social programs would cease to function. It would be like austerity on crack. They would lose all of their EU trade benefits as well as the stability of the Euro. Massive inflation would be a given. Dogs and cats living together. You get the picture.It would be quite ugly. Complete economic collapse

It's either a choice of this with plenty of intense near-term pain, or death by a thousand cuts over the long-term via debt slavery. There will be no good way out of this.

I think that's a bit misleading. I don't believe the pain would be entirely short-term. It could take a decade or more to rebuild their economy. Nobody really knows.

The people of Greece already voted on whether they want to go through that pain on their own or someone else's terms.

That's not true. They overwhelmingly want to stay in the EU. They simply voted against the current terms.

 

[Bonfire]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

With no outside funding to prop up their government all of their social programs would cease to function. It would be like austerity on crack. They would lose all of their EU trade benefits as well as the stability of the Euro. Massive inflation would be a given. Dogs and cats living together. You get the picture.

It would be quite ugly. Complete economic collapse

Won't someone please think of the children!

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

With no outside funding to prop up their government all of their social programs would cease to function. It would be like austerity on crack. They would lose all of their EU trade benefits as well as the stability of the Euro. Massive inflation would be a given. Dogs and cats living together. You get the picture.It would be quite ugly. Complete economic collapse

It's either a choice of this with plenty of intense near-term pain, or death by a thousand cuts over the long-term via debt slavery. There will be no good way out of this.

I think that's a bit misleading. I don't believe the pain would be entirely short-term. It could take a decade or more to rebuild their economy. Nobody really knows.

The people of Greece already voted on whether they want to go through that pain on their own or someone else's terms.

That's not true. They overwhelmingly want to stay in the EU. They simply voted against the current terms.

That is their own wishful thinking, no?

 

[James Daulton]

I read some article somewhere noting that Germany is the most staunch opponent of Greek debt forgiveness when the Germans in fact recovered as well as they did from their "issues" in large part due to debt forgiveness.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

I read some article somewhere noting that Germany is the most staunch opponent of Greek debt forgiveness when the Germans in fact recovered as well as they did from their "issues" in large part due to debt forgiveness.

Yes. In German, it's called being "Deutschbags".

 

[jonessed]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

With no outside funding to prop up their government all of their social programs would cease to function. It would be like austerity on crack. They would lose all of their EU trade benefits as well as the stability of the Euro. Massive inflation would be a given. Dogs and cats living together. You get the picture.It would be quite ugly. Complete economic collapse

It's either a choice of this with plenty of intense near-term pain, or death by a thousand cuts over the long-term via debt slavery. There will be no good way out of this.

I think that's a bit misleading. I don't believe the pain would be entirely short-term. It could take a decade or more to rebuild their economy. Nobody really knows.

The people of Greece already voted on whether they want to go through that pain on their own or someone else's terms.

That's not true. They overwhelmingly want to stay in the EU. They simply voted against the current terms.

That is their own wishful thinking, no?

It's hard to know if the EU will blink.

 

[jonessed]

I read some article somewhere noting that Germany is the most staunch opponent of Greek debt forgiveness when the Germans in fact recovered as well as they did from their "issues" in large part due to debt forgiveness.

The Germans aren't big on accepting their past.

 

[Short Corner]

I read some article somewhere noting that Germany is the most staunch opponent of Greek debt forgiveness when the Germans in fact recovered as well as they did from their "issues" in large part due to debt forgiveness.

The Germans aren't big on accepting their past.

such as?

 

[shadrap]

Greek Myths

July 7, 2015 By Debbie Young

Greece wants to be prosperous without being competitive. It wants to run a five-star welfare state with a two-star economy; modernity without efficiency or transparency; wealth without work. Greece wants control over its own destiny—but it also wants someone else to pick up the check.

In what the WSJ’s Bret Stephens calls a flight from reality, Greece’s debt-to-GDP ratio is 177%, which means that this year Greece will produce barely half as much as it owes. Greece also spends close to 18% of GDP on public pensions, compared to about 7% in Ireland and 5% in the U.S. And this is what the Greek government calls austerity?

IMO this. Let them default. Good lesson for all countries.

 

[TripItUp]

Greek Myths

July 7, 2015 By Debbie Young

Greece wants to be prosperous without being competitive. It wants to run a five-star welfare state with a two-star economy; modernity without efficiency or transparency; wealth without work. Greece wants control over its own destiny—but it also wants someone else to pick up the check.

In what the WSJ’s Bret Stephens calls a flight from reality, Greece’s debt-to-GDP ratio is 177%, which means that this year Greece will produce barely half as much as it owes. Greece also spends close to 18% of GDP on public pensions, compared to about 7% in Ireland and 5% in the U.S. And this is what the Greek government calls austerity?

IMO this. Let them default. Good lesson for all countries.

exactly...fantasy land is over.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Defaulting for Greece would be akin to bankruptcy, no? It would suck in the short term but be likely better for them in the long term?

How does getting kicked out of the EU negatively impact the Greeks?

With no outside funding to prop up their government all of their social programs would cease to function. It would be like austerity on crack. They would lose all of their EU trade benefits as well as the stability of the Euro. Massive inflation would be a given. Dogs and cats living together. You get the picture.It would be quite ugly. Complete economic collapse

It's either a choice of this with plenty of intense near-term pain, or death by a thousand cuts over the long-term via debt slavery. There will be no good way out of this.

I think that's a bit misleading. I don't believe the pain would be entirely short-term. It could take a decade or more to rebuild their economy. Nobody really knows.

The people of Greece already voted on whether they want to go through that pain on their own or someone else's terms.

That's not true. They overwhelmingly want to stay in the EU. They simply voted against the current terms.

That is their own wishful thinking, no?

It's hard to know if the EU will blink.

Apparently, we didn't get the market reaction that Greece was hoping for....