Gun that killed 3-year-old... (1 Viewer)

[Banger]

I think the only really salient point here is the one Otis made that I have been saying for a long time: you have to be the blindest of all optimists to look at our population and think that it's a good idea to guarantee EVERYONE the right to bear arms. We'll forget about the fact that it was intended for well-regulated militias for a second which I think might have helped with this situation. And forget about the fact that a 3-year old firing a musket was a pretty ####### remote possibility back then.

In terms of what it has come to mean now, if you actually think it's a good idea for everyone to be able to own and carry a gun, then I really don't know where you got your drugs but I want some, because that land of unicorns and rainbows must be nice. We're not all idiots, but there are enough around that are careless, stupid, poorly educated, and prone to violence that this ideal of everyone being their own last line of defense just isn't a good idea for everyone. For a lot of people it's a great idea. I really have no problem with people owning guns, but I am very particular about what kind of people. And I don't think we've nailed that one just yet.

you need to take tests to drive a car and must insure it and have it inspected...I don't understand why gun owners aren't made to register their guns, keep track of them and forced to have to training/registration. Makes zero sense to me.

with respect to this case...it's an unbelievable shame if this was the first time the guy left out a gun and the kid happened to pick up and pull the trigger. But this being the 3rd time (that's been reported) that the kid picked up a gun without a safety there's just no justification. Just complete carelessness and unfortunately they paid the highest penalty. Just awful.

 

[msommer]

No safety?

Probably a Glock. IIRC "the trigger is the saftey" kind of gun.

Kel-Tec 9 mm semi-automatic pistol

But a little googling says they also don't have a safety.

Rot in jail, moron

ETA: The owner of the gun, obviously. Not you, Jobber

guns without safeties are legal in the US? wow, that sucks.

can someone explain to me the thinking for making a gun without a safety? what it buys you in the risk vs. reward?

I think the argument is that you can shoot faster and no chance to not be able to shoot in case you get flustered and forget to disengage the safety

 

[Otis]

No safety?

Probably a Glock. IIRC "the trigger is the saftey" kind of gun.

Kel-Tec 9 mm semi-automatic pistol

But a little googling says they also don't have a safety.

Rot in jail, moron

ETA: The owner of the gun, obviously. Not you, Jobber

guns without safeties are legal in the US? wow, that sucks.

can someone explain to me the thinking for making a gun without a safety? what it buys you in the risk vs. reward?

You can be like a kick-### quick draw cowboy and shoot folks uber fast. YEEEEHAWWWW!

 

[Clifford]

Who the #### knows. This is what happens when any reasonable measure is lumped in with "the gubmint takin our guns" response the NRA whips up any time any measure at all is proposed. I'm sure safeties are seen by some as a slippery slope to total government takeover.

After seeing pictures and getting more a picture of the life this little girl lived, I started to wonder about the intersection of gun ownership and income level. Actually shows that gun ownership peaks in salary ranges squarely in the middle class:
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/wealth-poverty/income-upshot/behind-data-gun-ownership-and-income

The high-water mark is $89k a year in family income, which I think is basically the definition of the middle-middle class. After that is starts to recede.

 

[timschochet]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked". As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

 

[Clifford]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

What it's relevant to Tim is does the "more guns" stance make us more or less safe? Do more guns in homes result in safer homes for families?

So because some moron doesn't show the proper respect for a firearm in his own home, there should more restrictions for everyone else? The guy is ####### idiot, and now tragically his child is dead. It's not anyone's fault but his own. Apparently he took classes on this besides?

You can't legislate out stupidity.

But you can recognize it as a fact of life and take reasonable steps to limit its collateral damage.

 

[Clifford]

I think the only really salient point here is the one Otis made that I have been saying for a long time: you have to be the blindest of all optimists to look at our population and think that it's a good idea to guarantee EVERYONE the right to bear arms. We'll forget about the fact that it was intended for well-regulated militias for a second which I think might have helped with this situation. And forget about the fact that a 3-year old firing a musket was a pretty ####### remote possibility back then.

In terms of what it has come to mean now, if you actually think it's a good idea for everyone to be able to own and carry a gun, then I really don't know where you got your drugs but I want some, because that land of unicorns and rainbows must be nice. We're not all idiots, but there are enough around that are careless, stupid, poorly educated, and prone to violence that this ideal of everyone being their own last line of defense just isn't a good idea for everyone. For a lot of people it's a great idea. I really have no problem with people owning guns, but I am very particular about what kind of people. And I don't think we've nailed that one just yet.

you need to take tests to drive a car and must insure it and have it inspected...I don't understand why gun owners aren't made to register their guns, keep track of them and forced to have to training/registration. Makes zero sense to me.

with respect to this case...it's an unbelievable shame if this was the first time the guy left out a gun and the kid happened to pick up and pull the trigger. But this being the 3rd time (that's been reported) that the kid picked up a gun without a safety there's just no justification. Just complete carelessness and unfortunately they paid the highest penalty. Just awful.

Was actually one of two loaded handguns left lying about in the house that day according to police. This was a matter of when, not if. And apparently there were even warnings on the when.

 

[coyote5]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

What it's relevant to Tim is does the "more guns" stance make us more or less safe? Do more guns in homes result in safer homes for families?

So because some moron doesn't show the proper respect for a firearm in his own home, there should more restrictions for everyone else? The guy is ####### idiot, and now tragically his child is dead. It's not anyone's fault but his own. Apparently he took classes on this besides?

You can't legislate out stupidity.

But you can recognize it as a fact of life and take reasonable steps to limit its collateral damage.

What's a reasonable step to you that would have prevented this from happening?

 

[Apes with Guns]

No safety?

Probably a Glock. IIRC "the trigger is the saftey" kind of gun.

Kel-Tec 9 mm semi-automatic pistol

But a little googling says they also don't have a safety.

Rot in jail, moron

ETA: The owner of the gun, obviously. Not you, Jobber

guns without safeties are legal in the US? wow, that sucks.

can someone explain to me the thinking for making a gun without a safety? what it buys you in the risk vs. reward?

I think the argument is that you can shoot faster and no chance to not be able to shoot in case you get flustered and forget to disengage the safety

fair enough.

seems like a very bad trade-off to me. take keeping your home safe out of it...i wouldn't want to look like that Ricky Williams DEA guy who shot himself in a classroom accidentally. not only is he hobbling, but he's going to be an internet idiot forever. that's a heavy price to pay.

 

[Banger]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

random inspections where you must account for your guns and evidence that you are properly caring for them and if not they are taken. Will never happen but could enforce standards and remove guns from individuals that don't properly care for their firearms.

 

[Clifford]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

I think you have to devise a system for keeping guns out of the hands of those who are simply too careless or stupid to be trusted with them.

As to guns that are out there, you create a several year window trade-in program and impose penalties to those who have non-compliant firearms after that period. Won't prevent everything but would prevent some deaths.

 

[timschochet]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

random inspections where you must account for your guns and evidence that you are properly caring for them and if not they are taken. Will never happen but could enforce standards and remove guns from individuals that don't properly care for their firearms.

You're right it will never happen.

 

[NCCommish]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

What it's relevant to Tim is does the "more guns" stance make us more or less safe? Do more guns in homes result in safer homes for families?

OK, but this story doesn't prove that or anything really except that this particular gun owner was irresponsible.A few weeks ago Carolina Hustler started a thread about a woman who defended her home with a gun against a home invasion, remember? And I pointed out that the story was anecdotal and didn't prove anything one way or another. This is the same, coming from the "opposite" POV. We all rely on anecdotes way too much IMO.

Well then Mr MX shouldn't have brought in. And BTW at what point does your anecdotal thing become crap? I can go Posty here and post "anecdotes" to fill the whole first page pretty easy. Was just reading about a 15 year old shot in a state trooper's home, accidentally of course. I can pretty much guarantee you my anecdotes of people killing each other with a gun in the home be it accidental, a result of drunkeness or just plain old domestic violence and they will far exceed the occasional I protected my home anecdote.

 

[timschochet]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

I think you have to devise a system for keeping guns out of the hands of those who are simply too careless or stupid to be trusted with them.As to guns that are out there, you create a several year window trade-in program and impose penalties to those who have non-compliant firearms after that period. Won't prevent everything but would prevent some deaths.

I just don't think any of this is workable.

 

[timschochet]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

What it's relevant to Tim is does the "more guns" stance make us more or less safe? Do more guns in homes result in safer homes for families?

OK, but this story doesn't prove that or anything really except that this particular gun owner was irresponsible.A few weeks ago Carolina Hustler started a thread about a woman who defended her home with a gun against a home invasion, remember? And I pointed out that the story was anecdotal and didn't prove anything one way or another. This is the same, coming from the "opposite" POV. We all rely on anecdotes way too much IMO.

Well then Mr MX shouldn't have brought in. And BTW at what point does your anecdotal thing become crap? I can go Posty here and post "anecdotes" to fill the whole first page pretty easy. Was just reading about a 15 year old shot in a state trooper's home, accidentally of course. I can pretty much guarantee you my anecdotes of people killing each other with a gun in the home be it accidental, a result of drunkeness or just plain old domestic violence and they will far exceed the occasional I protected my home anecdote.

My anecdote thing becomes crap when you can point to statistics to justify your POV.

 

[DiStefano]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

random inspections where you must account for your guns and evidence that you are properly caring for them and if not they are taken. Will never happen but could enforce standards and remove guns from individuals that don't properly care for their firearms.

Great idea. And make sure they hit the homes at 3 am, so people don't have a chance to lock them up. And BTW, while they are there, why don't they check for illegal drugs, and check the refrigerator to see they don't have sugary drinks they're feeding their kids. Or subversive material.

 

[Clifford]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

What it's relevant to Tim is does the "more guns" stance make us more or less safe? Do more guns in homes result in safer homes for families?

So because some moron doesn't show the proper respect for a firearm in his own home, there should more restrictions for everyone else? The guy is ####### idiot, and now tragically his child is dead. It's not anyone's fault but his own. Apparently he took classes on this besides?

You can't legislate out stupidity.

But you can recognize it as a fact of life and take reasonable steps to limit its collateral damage.

What's a reasonable step to you that would have prevented this from happening?

Perfect biometric technology on gun grips. But ####, outlawing any gun without a safety from sale or ownership in the US would have prevented this.

There are tons of reasonable steps we could employ. You can't stop stupid. Maybe nothing would have saved this girls life. Maybe if there were even a nationwide ban on all firearms this guy would have gotten one illegally and left it out all the same. In terms of this one incident it's impossible to say. In terms of what could we do to keep more incidents like this from happening then I think that's a more reasonable target. Obviously this case represents the worst kind of recklessness with a firearm and the justice system will take care of that, because it is a crime.

 

[Banger]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

random inspections where you must account for your guns and evidence that you are properly caring for them and if not they are taken. Will never happen but could enforce standards and remove guns from individuals that don't properly care for their firearms.

You're right it will never happen.

doesn't mean that it shouldn't though. Guns should be registered and be accounted for...would stop a lot of the guns getting into the hands of gangs/criminals and would hold gun owners accountable. For the vast majority it woudln't be an issue but this could be avoided if idiots were inspected to ensure they were properly handling their firearms.

 

[Clifford]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

I think you have to devise a system for keeping guns out of the hands of those who are simply too careless or stupid to be trusted with them.As to guns that are out there, you create a several year window trade-in program and impose penalties to those who have non-compliant firearms after that period. Won't prevent everything but would prevent some deaths.

I just don't think any of this is workable.

Do you think federal safety restrictions on cars are working?

 

[timschochet]

Look, we live in a society where people are free to own guns in their homes, for better or worse. That means that these sort of tragedies are inevitable. If they were especially common, they wouldn't be news items. And there are no reasonable steps that we can take, IMO, to prevent them from happening.

 

[timschochet]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

I think you have to devise a system for keeping guns out of the hands of those who are simply too careless or stupid to be trusted with them.As to guns that are out there, you create a several year window trade-in program and impose penalties to those who have non-compliant firearms after that period. Won't prevent everything but would prevent some deaths.

I just don't think any of this is workable.

Do you think federal safety restrictions on cars are working?

Yes, but we've been over this before and it's not a good analogy IMO. If cars were hand held, simple to purchase and cheap, it would be very difficult to regulate them.

 

[Clifford]

Look, we live in a society where people are free to own cars in their driveways, for better or worse. That means that these sort of car accidents are inevitable. If they were especially common, they wouldn't be news items. And there are no reasonable steps that we can take, IMO, to prevent them from happening.

The same logic would have prevented every advance in auto-safety because we can't stop accidents from happening.

It's a silly and frankly irresponsible pov. The fact that we are so permissive when it comes to gun ownership means we have a responsibility to try anything and everything we can to limit the collateral damage of that stance.

 

[Banger]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

random inspections where you must account for your guns and evidence that you are properly caring for them and if not they are taken. Will never happen but could enforce standards and remove guns from individuals that don't properly care for their firearms.

Great idea. And make sure they hit the homes at 3 am, so people don't have a chance to lock them up. And BTW, while they are there, why don't they check for illegal drugs, and check the refrigerator to see they don't have sugary drinks they're feeding their kids. Or subversive material.

and the alternative is what we have now. We know a lot of people are irresponsible with their guns and it's always chalked up as that guy was an idiot but what can you do? What you can do is try to get the guns out of the hands of idiots that aren't responsible, especially when there are kids in the house. If a guy is a bad driver and gets in tons of accidents he gets his license revoked, pays fines...irresponsible gun owners have no consequences but sometimes end up with dead kids or kids that take their guns and go on rampages.

To throw up your hands and continue to do what we do, which is nothing, we'll end up with the same result time after time. When I see problems, I try to come up with solutions to fix them as opposed to seeing problems and just accepting them.

 

[Clifford]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

I think you have to devise a system for keeping guns out of the hands of those who are simply too careless or stupid to be trusted with them.As to guns that are out there, you create a several year window trade-in program and impose penalties to those who have non-compliant firearms after that period. Won't prevent everything but would prevent some deaths.

I just don't think any of this is workable.

Do you think federal safety restrictions on cars are working?

Yes, but we've been over this before and it's not a good analogy IMO. If cars were hand held, simple to purchase and cheap, it would be very difficult to regulate them.

How does the size of a gun affect a government's ability to place limits on the sale of that good in this country?

 

[LinusMarr]

Yay lets get rid of all guns!! The only people that should be allowed to have them are the criminals!! yay look how "PC" we are!! Yay!!

 

[timschochet]

Look, we live in a society where people are free to own cars in their driveways, for better or worse. That means that these sort of car accidents are inevitable. If they were especially common, they wouldn't be news items. And there are no reasonable steps that we can take, IMO, to prevent them from happening.

The same logic would have prevented every advance in auto-safety because we can't stop accidents from happening.It's a silly and frankly irresponsible pov. The fact that we are so permissive when it comes to gun ownership means we have a responsibility to try anything and everything we can to limit the collateral damage of that stance.

As I wrote earlier, I believe and promote reasonable gun control laws. In fact, some of the gun defenders in this forum seem to regard me, incorrectly, as the poster child for anti-gun around here. But I fail to see how any of this applies to this situation.

 

[NCCommish]

Look, we live in a society where people are free to own guns in their homes, for better or worse. That means that these sort of tragedies are inevitable. If they were especially common, they wouldn't be news items. And there are no reasonable steps that we can take, IMO, to prevent them from happening.

Did you take that right from the NRA website?

 

[msommer]

Aren't there regulations on e.g. frequencies for cel phones?

They seem to be small, ubiquitous and in most cases cheaper than handguns.

 

[Clifford]

Look, we live in a society where people are free to own cars in their driveways, for better or worse. That means that these sort of car accidents are inevitable. If they were especially common, they wouldn't be news items. And there are no reasonable steps that we can take, IMO, to prevent them from happening.

The same logic would have prevented every advance in auto-safety because we can't stop accidents from happening.It's a silly and frankly irresponsible pov. The fact that we are so permissive when it comes to gun ownership means we have a responsibility to try anything and everything we can to limit the collateral damage of that stance.

As I wrote earlier, I believe and promote reasonable gun control laws. In fact, some of the gun defenders in this forum seem to regard me, incorrectly, as the poster child for anti-gun around here. But I fail to see how any of this applies to this situation.

So you believe in something you don't believe exists? Or are you saying gun control laws are incapable of preventing accidents with guns?

 

[msommer]

Look, we live in a society where people are free to own guns in their homes, for better or worse. That means that these sort of tragedies are inevitable. If they were especially common, they wouldn't be news items. And there are no reasonable steps that we can take, IMO, to prevent them from happening.

Which steps do you consider least unreasonable?

 

[DiStefano]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

random inspections where you must account for your guns and evidence that you are properly caring for them and if not they are taken. Will never happen but could enforce standards and remove guns from individuals that don't properly care for their firearms.

Great idea. And make sure they hit the homes at 3 am, so people don't have a chance to lock them up. And BTW, while they are there, why don't they check for illegal drugs, and check the refrigerator to see they don't have sugary drinks they're feeding their kids. Or subversive material.

and the alternative is what we have now. We know a lot of people are irresponsible with their guns and it's always chalked up as that guy was an idiot but what can you do? What you can do is try to get the guns out of the hands of idiots that aren't responsible. To throw up your hands and continue to do what we do, which is nothing, we'll end up with the same result time after time. When I see problems, I try to come up with solutions to fix them as opposed to seeing problems and just accepting them.

Anecdotes. Anecdotes. Anecdotes. In a country of 315 million people, you are going to get tragedies of every kind happening to individuals. The are tragic, but to attempt to fix every anecdotal tragedy by passing a law is moronic. Sheer stupidity. As the saying goes: "Hard cases make bad law." Of course it's a tragedy, but in the context of 315 million people, it does not demand a law.

 

[Banger]

Yay lets get rid of all guns!! The only people that should be allowed to have them are the criminals!! yay look how "PC" we are!! Yay!!

the typical knee jerk reaction and I haven't read where anyone has said that. If you are a sane, law abiding citizen that's fine..have a gun and own it responsibly, I have no problem at all with that.

 

[timschochet]

Look, we live in a society where people are free to own guns in their homes, for better or worse. That means that these sort of tragedies are inevitable. If they were especially common, they wouldn't be news items. And there are no reasonable steps that we can take, IMO, to prevent them from happening.

Did you take that right from the NRA website?

I don't think they'd write "for better or worse".

 

[Banger]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

random inspections where you must account for your guns and evidence that you are properly caring for them and if not they are taken. Will never happen but could enforce standards and remove guns from individuals that don't properly care for their firearms.

Great idea. And make sure they hit the homes at 3 am, so people don't have a chance to lock them up. And BTW, while they are there, why don't they check for illegal drugs, and check the refrigerator to see they don't have sugary drinks they're feeding their kids. Or subversive material.

and the alternative is what we have now. We know a lot of people are irresponsible with their guns and it's always chalked up as that guy was an idiot but what can you do? What you can do is try to get the guns out of the hands of idiots that aren't responsible. To throw up your hands and continue to do what we do, which is nothing, we'll end up with the same result time after time. When I see problems, I try to come up with solutions to fix them as opposed to seeing problems and just accepting them.

Anecdotes. Anecdotes. Anecdotes. In a country of 315 million people, you are going to get tragedies of every kind happening to individuals. The are tragic, but to attempt to fix every anecdotal tragedy by passing a law is moronic. Sheer stupidity. As the saying goes: "Hard cases make bad law." Of course it's a tragedy, but in the context of 315 million people, it does not demand a law.

it's not 5 deaths per year...there are over 30,000 handgun deaths per year..that's not insignificant and not an anecdote. but lets keep doing what we're doing, it's working great.

 

[glock]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

Disagree, Tim. "Conceal and carry" is a lifestyle in which a gun is handled far more that it would be were the gun always in a safe in case of a home invasion or whatever. I would argue that this creates more potential for the mishandling of a gun. Like this sad incident.

Can you back up that argument with statistics rather than anecdotes?Intuitively I agree with you. But during another one of these discussions (the popcorn shooting) I went looking for statistics to see if concealed carry made the state of Florida less safe. I found just the opposite- there were LESS gun crimes and acts of violence since the CC laws were passed. That fact was diagreeable to me, but I posted it at the time anyhow because facts are much more relevant than anecdotes.

You don't think that the mere act of handling a firearm multiple times in a day increases the possibility that it might be mishandled? More so than the same gun locked in it's safe in case of emergency?

Come on, now...

 

[timschochet]

Look, we live in a society where people are free to own cars in their driveways, for better or worse. That means that these sort of car accidents are inevitable. If they were especially common, they wouldn't be news items. And there are no reasonable steps that we can take, IMO, to prevent them from happening.

The same logic would have prevented every advance in auto-safety because we can't stop accidents from happening.It's a silly and frankly irresponsible pov. The fact that we are so permissive when it comes to gun ownership means we have a responsibility to try anything and everything we can to limit the collateral damage of that stance.

As I wrote earlier, I believe and promote reasonable gun control laws. In fact, some of the gun defenders in this forum seem to regard me, incorrectly, as the poster child for anti-gun around here. But I fail to see how any of this applies to this situation.

So you believe in something you don't believe exists? Or are you saying gun control laws are incapable of preventing accidents with guns?

I believe very strongly that universal background checks, and possibly universal registration, will reduce gun violence. As far as preventing accidents like this one, I don't see how to reasonably accomplish that.

 

[StrikeS2k]

This is a terrible tragedy.

But it says nothing about gun control. It says nothing about concealed carry, since it happened in a home.

There are good reasons to support moderate gun control laws such as universal background checks, and I do. But this story is irrelevant to those reasons.

How can you really think this? If guns were controlled more tightly down south, maybe this guy wouldn't have one. And the whole premise of the story is that this happened because he is a concealed carry guy, and left it there to make sure he didn't forget it on his way out.

Silly.

Short of making all guns in a home illegal, what sort of gun control law could have prevented this?

Trigger locks mandated on every single firearmand of course the completely unworkable but somehow standard on the iPhone biometrics technology on the grip/trigger

Obviously the law could be strengthened as well since it mandates locking up a gun only if the gun is not within reach, though this guy was violating even that.

I've got no problem with mandating trigger locks and biometric technology on new guns, but it doesn't do much for the guns already in existence. It also doesn't prevent this situation since based on the story this dude would likely have the trigger lock "unlocked".As far as more laws mandating locking up your guns, how would they possibly be enforced?

random inspections where you must account for your guns and evidence that you are properly caring for them and if not they are taken. Will never happen but could enforce standards and remove guns from individuals that don't properly care for their firearms.

Great idea. And make sure they hit the homes at 3 am, so people don't have a chance to lock them up. And BTW, while they are there, why don't they check for illegal drugs, and check the refrigerator to see they don't have sugary drinks they're feeding their kids. Or subversive material.

and the alternative is what we have now. We know a lot of people are irresponsible with their guns and it's always chalked up as that guy was an idiot but what can you do? What you can do is try to get the guns out of the hands of idiots that aren't responsible. To throw up your hands and continue to do what we do, which is nothing, we'll end up with the same result time after time. When I see problems, I try to come up with solutions to fix them as opposed to seeing problems and just accepting them.

Anecdotes. Anecdotes. Anecdotes. In a country of 315 million people, you are going to get tragedies of every kind happening to individuals. The are tragic, but to attempt to fix every anecdotal tragedy by passing a law is moronic. Sheer stupidity. As the saying goes: "Hard cases make bad law." Of course it's a tragedy, but in the context of 315 million people, it does not demand a law.

it's not 5 deaths per year...there are over 30,000 handgun deaths per year..that's not insignificant and not an anecdote. but lets keep doing what we're doing, it's working great.

I love it when people quote stats without a link. but seriously, assuming you're correct, what percentage of those are by law abiding citizens in cases such as this? Because I really don't give a damn about gang bangers shooting each other. Take those types of stats out of the equation and how many are we talking about?

 

[Two Deep]

Hasn't all of this been discussed already in the movie text shooter thread.

 

[timschochet]

Look, we live in a society where people are free to own guns in their homes, for better or worse. That means that these sort of tragedies are inevitable. If they were especially common, they wouldn't be news items. And there are no reasonable steps that we can take, IMO, to prevent them from happening.

Which steps do you consider least unreasonable?

I think random home inspections, as Clifford suggested, are pretty unreasonable. BTW Clifford, this answers your question as to why the small size of guns matters as compared to cars. Highway patrol can spot a car that has problems and give the owner a ticket. With guns you have to be far more intrusive to enforce restrictions. It's unworkable.

 

[Banger]

I love it when people quote stats without a link. but seriously, assuming you're correct, what percentage of those are by law abiding citizens in cases such as this? Because I really don't give a damn about gang bangers shooting each other. Take those types of stats out of the equation and how many are we talking about?

but gang bangers shoot innocent people too as well as each other. How about we try and stop straw buyers from being able to gun into a gun store and buy guns and immediately flip them to gangs. You do that by making buyers register the guns and hold them accountable and then the straw buyers with go away and guns would be much more difficult to get. Why is that a bad thing? Right now it's so easy which the gun lobby loves because it sells more guns which is all they care about. At the end of the day it's better for business if gangs and such get guns because then you need to get guns to protect yourself and your family.

If you can save 3,000 people a year is that enough (10%), 300?. Hell, somehow every other developed society on the planet has a handle on this issue except the US. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to own guns, they should but it should be a responsiblity and not for every idiot and moron. I have to take a driving test to get behind a wheel, why shouldn't safety courses, registrations, and such be required? There's no doubt it would reduce guns getting into the wrong hands and make for more informed and responsible owners which would in turn save lives so I think inconveniencing people to the standards we have to drive a car is a reasonable expectation.

 

[LinusMarr]

I love it when people quote stats without a link. but seriously, assuming you're correct, what percentage of those are by law abiding citizens in cases such as this? Because I really don't give a damn about gang bangers shooting each other. Take those types of stats out of the equation and how many are we talking about?

but gang bangers shoot innocent people too as well as each other. How about we try and stop straw buyers from being able to gun into a gun store and buy guns and immediately flip them to gangs. You do that by making buyers register the guns and hold them accountable and then the straw buyers with go away and guns would be much more difficult to get. Why is that a bad thing? Right now it's so easy which the gun lobby loves because it sells more guns which is all they care about. At the end of the day it's better for business if gangs and such get guns because then you need to get guns to protect yourself and your family. If you can save 3,000 people a year is that enough (10%), 300?. Hell, somehow every other developed society on the planet has a handle on this issue except the US. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to own guns, they should but it should be a responsiblity and not for every idiot and moron. I have to take a driving test to get behind a wheel, why shouldn't safety courses, registrations, and such be required? There's no doubt it would reduce guns getting into the wrong hands and make for more informed and responsible owners which would in turn save lives so I think inconveniencing people to the standards we have to drive a car is a reasonable expectation.

You cant take guns away from the gangbangers, thats racist ya know....

 

[Otis]

Yay lets get rid of all guns!! The only people that should be allowed to have them are the criminals!! yay look how "PC" we are!! Yay!!

Yes, it's because we're "PC" sissy nancies, that's why we don't want you buffoons shooting your children. Weak, gay, liberal nerds. Who dislike children killing.

Pansies.

 

[Otis]

Hasn't all of this been discussed already in the movie text shooter thread.

In dozens of threads.

 

[Reegus]

If you don't like our right to bear arms. Well get the hell out of America

 

[StrikeS2k]

I love it when people quote stats without a link. but seriously, assuming you're correct, what percentage of those are by law abiding citizens in cases such as this? Because I really don't give a damn about gang bangers shooting each other. Take those types of stats out of the equation and how many are we talking about?

but gang bangers shoot innocent people too as well as each other. How about we try and stop straw buyers from being able to gun into a gun store and buy guns and immediately flip them to gangs. You do that by making buyers register the guns and hold them accountable and then the straw buyers with go away and guns would be much more difficult to get. Why is that a bad thing? Right now it's so easy which the gun lobby loves because it sells more guns which is all they care about. At the end of the day it's better for business if gangs and such get guns because then you need to get guns to protect yourself and your family.

If you can save 3,000 people a year is that enough (10%), 300?. Hell, somehow every other developed society on the planet has a handle on this issue except the US. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to own guns, they should but it should be a responsiblity and not for every idiot and moron. I have to take a driving test to get behind a wheel, why shouldn't safety courses, registrations, and such be required? There's no doubt it would reduce guns getting into the wrong hands and make for more informed and responsible owners which would in turn save lives so I think inconveniencing people to the standards we have to drive a car is a reasonable expectation.

You are welcome to include stats where gang bangers shoot innocent, law abiding citizens. The reality is that the percentage of gun injuries/deaths that involve simply law abiding citizens is a minor percentage of overall gun incidents. But people love to use the overall gun stats to justify laws that will only affect law abiding citizens. Because criminals will not follow any laws you or Tim propose. So, if you're going to use stats to justify those laws, let's use stats that isolate those the proposed laws would impact. Just seems fair to me.

 

[StrikeS2k]

If you can save 3,000 people a year is that enough (10%), 300?. Hell, somehow every other developed society on the planet has a handle on this issue except the US. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to own guns, they should but it should be a responsiblity and not for every idiot and moron. I have to take a driving test to get behind a wheel, why shouldn't safety courses, registrations, and such be required? There's no doubt it would reduce guns getting into the wrong hands and make for more informed and responsible owners which would in turn save lives so I think inconveniencing people to the standards we have to drive a car is a reasonable expectation.

do you want to see the stats regarding what happened in GB after they instituted a gun ban?

 

[Megalomaniac]

I agree we need to implement stricter backround checks and proper training for all gun owners.....period, with no loopholes. Any negligence like this should be severely dealt with. That said, I'm also 100% FOR the right to bear arms...and no statistic will change my mind. No matter how many kids die in this country. Let me ask you this; How many kids died over the course of history by Dictators, Socialists, Communists, and other control freak tryannats (all in the name of the greater good)? What if those people had been armed? How many have been killed from a freely armed capitalistic society? If you don't think that can happen today you are living in a fantasy world, you need to take a closer look. In fact, over the last few years things have escalated globally. Our military is very strong and very respected across the globe, but the elite leaders across the globe also fear the 3 million guns owned by our people....proving yet again that most liberals are again on the wrong side of history and freedom.

How many people die to thieves and other criminals every year? Why doesn't the liberal media show you when lives are SAVED by responsible gun owners protecting their homes and families from thieves? Will a gun law stop all the criminals across the globe from killing people or getting access to firearms? IMO, the gun debate is typical liberal politics...as ususal, they are on the wrong side of this issue and it is all about control over the popoluation and has nothing to do with safety. Like most of their agenda, they just dress up a pig with lipstick, lie and blame all the wrong people. Outlawing guns are ideal for a hypothetical utopian world, were most of these college educated live.....but it is impractical, and totally disregards history. If guns are outlawed, we will lose in the end. The fact anyone would even consider taking our trump card away is highly ingnorant of the past and of true human nature. In the end, the RESPONSIBLE protection of MY family IS MY DUTY...NOT YOURS...and it goes above and beyond YOUR insecurity, political agenda, or PERCEIVED "greater good".

 

[LinusMarr]

If you don't like our right to bear arms. Well get the hell out of America

Yeeeeah!! Hippies...

 

[Apes with Guns]

Look, we live in a society where people are free to own guns in their homes, for better or worse. That means that these sort of tragedies are inevitable. If they were especially common, they wouldn't be news items. And there are no reasonable steps that we can take, IMO, to prevent them from happening.

i think mandating that all guns possessed in the United States have safeties is a worthy goal. not just for this little girl, but to cut down on the number of accidental shootings. Having a gun without a safety makes no sense to me.

 

[Banger]

I agree we need to implement stricter backround checks and proper training for all gun owners.....period, with no loopholes. Any negligence like this should be severely dealt with. That said, I'm also 100% FOR the right to bear arms...and no statistic will change my mind. No matter how many kids die in this country. Let me ask you this; How many kids died over the course of history by Dictators, Socialists, Communists, and other control freak tryannats (all in the name of the greater good)? What if those people had been armed? How many have been killed from a freely armed capitalistic society? If you don't think that can happen today you are living in a fantasy world, you need to take a closer look. In fact, over the last few years things have escalated globally. Our military is very strong and very respected across the globe, but the elite leaders across the globe also fear the 3 million guns owned by our people....proving yet again that most liberals are again on the wrong side of history and freedom.

How many people die to thieves and other criminals every year? Why doesn't the liberal media show you when lives are SAVED by responsible gun owners protecting their homes and families from thieves? Will a gun law stop all the criminals across the globe from killing people or getting access to firearms? IMO, the gun debate is typical liberal politics...as ususal, they are on the wrong side of this issue and it is all about control over the popoluation and has nothing to do with safety. Like most of their agenda, they just dress up a pig with lipstick, lie and blame all the wrong people. Outlawing guns are ideal for a hypothetical utopian world, were most of these college educated live.....but it is impractical, and totally disregards history. If guns are outlawed, we will lose in the end. The fact anyone would even consider taking our trump card away is highly ingnorant of the past and of true human nature. In the end, the RESPONSIBLE protection of MY family IS MY DUTY...NOT YOURS...and it goes above and beyond YOUR insecurity, political agenda, or PERCEIVED "greater good".

speaking for myself, I'm not a liberal and have no agenda. I agreed totally with your first couple lines. I think it's reasonable to register and account for the guns that are sold and hold people accountable. Not sure why that's so outrageous.

Looking into the future the most probable attack will be an EMP bomb or drone attacks as there are 70 nations with drone programs and won't be some physical invasion where handguns could be of some use. That's the past but in reality they would be of no use.