H-1B Visa Program (2 Viewers)

[Doctor Detroit]

There a dust-up in here? 

Damn, I like both you guys. I'd hang with Dr. D. anytime. Wish you could get along.  

I like Higgs just fine, that's why I let him run circles around me all the time.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Another cost savings a lot of time is the benefit structure.  In IT I would think this is especially pronounced since there are a lot of able foreigners with degrees/experience who don't even consider benefits when accepting a job via the h-1B program.  Have you found that to be true?  In theory the H-1B and W-2 wages could be similar but where the company saves is in the reduced benefits paid out.  I know this to true in the defense and also the airline sector. 

The H1B worker is motivated to work so they can stay in the country and to obtain their green card so they can remain here long term. They are mobile and will move across the country within a few weeks for assignments as short as 3-4 months. Their W2 counterpart with the same niche skill can by and large call their shots. So much of IT is in contract work as opposed to fulltime so benefits are often secondary both with H1s and W2s although W2 workers will tend not to want to move, will have families and therefore benefits will mean more to them. If a company is going to sponsor someone for their green card, that costs thousands of dollars which factors into what you pay them.

The abuses I see in the program are related to the H1s getting treated unfairly not that it is taking jobs from Americans. While a H1 may cost company less than a W2 that isn't why companies hire them. Most would gladly pay more for an American but for so many IT skill sets that person doesn't exist. The better communication skills and not having to deal with all the Immigration paperwork more than would make up for the extra salaries in most companies minds. 

The funny thing is that I can see Trump's order forcing more companies to go offshore with their IT work. Instead of having H1s coming over to this country, eventually getting a green card and becoming an citizen you will see more and more work handled offshore in India, Mexico and wait for it...Russia.

 

[Higgs]

What you just produced in that link shows one specific group of workers impacted by H-1B visas.  If you can't understand that wage stagnation is primarily due to productivity levels, and that more highly skilled workers especially in fields H1B visas are increasing that productivity, then it might make more sense to you.  If you can find cheaper labor, especially for highly skilled positions, then you exponentially improve the means of production and market share for companies who employee higher quality employees at a lower cost. 

You are also leaving out key facts like the growth of the top 1% vs the bottom 90%, and how economic policy has created a vacuum for the middle and lower income people.  And none of this is new, this has been a steady transition of wages and wealth away from the middle class to the top few percent.  I'm sure you thought of all this though. 

 I'll wait for you to run circles around me like you always do. 

No need for me to run circles around you.  You're doing a fine enough job doing that yourself.  If you can't concede that there has been wage stagnation as a result of the H-1B issue then you are either ignorant to the recent studies or being obstinate.  From the March 14th Wall Street Journal (will only quote pertinent excerpts of the article as it's a paid subscription):

A new research paper on the effects of the H-1B visa program on workers suggests the influx of skilled foreign workers has historically led to lower wages and employment for American tech workers...

Economists from the University of Michigan and the University of California, San Diego, analyzed employment, wages and other factors over an eight-year period ending in 2001. They found that, while the visa program bolstered the U.S. economy and corporate profits, tech-industry wages would have been as much as 5.1% higher in the absence of the H-1B visa program and employment of U.S. workers in the field would have been as much as 10.8% higher in 2001...

John Bound, a professor at the University of Michigan and one of the authors of the new study, said he and his fellow researchers focused their paper on the 1994 to 2001 period because it was the longest stretch of time when employers claimed all available H-1B visas. However, in an earlier paper, they found that a similar model did “a good job capturing the movement of wages and employment in the 2001 to 2011 period,” Mr. Bound said...

Jennifer Hunt, former chief economist at the U.S. Department of Labor under President Obama, said she’s noticed an increasingly politicized response to research on immigration and wage inequality. She said she would have preferred that Mr. Bound and his co-authors focus on more recent time periods, but added that the paper is “the best work we have by a long way” in quantifying the “negative” effects of high-skilled immigration.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

No need for me to run circles around you.  You're doing a fine enough job doing that yourself.  If you can't concede that there has been wage stagnation as a result of the H-1B issue then you are either ignorant to the recent studies or being obstinate.  From the March 14th Wall Street Journal (will only quote pertinent excerpts of the article as it's a paid subscription):

Did it seriously take you 20 minutes to find that?  I already said that in some fields this is absolutely true, but for good reason.  Already covered that Chacci. 

 

[sporthenry]

I think the bigger issue is just the uncertainty this creates around coming to this country. The best minds come here for opportunity.  The next Sergei Brin might not be allowed in or worse go somewhere else because of all this. But don't worry, a few Americans will keep their $20/hour job. The potential brain drain is enormous. Another case of American exceptionalism. These people will go elsewhere to innovate and I'd even guess companies like Google and Apple would love to move operations overseas to lower cost jurisdictions. 

 

[Doctor Detroit]

The H1B worker is motivated to work so they can stay in the country and to obtain their green card so they can remain here long term. They are mobile and will move across the country within a few weeks for assignments as short as 3-4 months. Their W2 counterpart with the same niche skill can by and large call their shots. So much of IT is in contract work as opposed to fulltime so benefits are often secondary both with H1s and W2s although W2 workers will tend not to want to move, will have families and therefore benefits will mean more to them. If a company is going to sponsor someone for their green card, that costs thousands of dollars which factors into what you pay them.

The abuses I see in the program are related to the H1s getting treated unfairly not that it is taking jobs from Americans. While a H1 may cost company less than a W2 that isn't why companies hire them. Most would gladly pay more for an American but for so many IT skill sets that person doesn't exist. The better communication skills and not having to deal with all the Immigration paperwork more than would make up for the extra salaries in most companies minds. 

The funny thing is that I can see Trump's order forcing more companies to go offshore with their IT work. Instead of having H1s coming over to this country, eventually getting a green card and becoming an citizen you will see more and more work handled offshore in India, Mexico and wait for it...Russia.

Very interesting, at least something valuable will come from this thread. 

For the bolded why do you think that is?  Even with all the innovation, college programs, and paths to great paying jobs this still happens?  Is it that our educational systems fail to teach the critical components of emerging IT technology and are too general? 

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I think the bigger issue is just the uncertainty this creates around coming to this country. The best minds come here for opportunity.  The next Sergei Brin might not be allowed in or worse go somewhere else because of all this. But don't worry, a few Americans will keep their $20/hour job. The potential brain drain is enormous. Another case of American exceptionalism. These people will go elsewhere to innovate and I'd even guess companies like Google and Apple would love to move operations overseas to lower cost jurisdictions. 

The way I've always looked at it is that we want the best people doing the most important work.  If that is an American, great.  If you can find better doctors, scientists, and technical experts from other countries to make U.S. businesses better then you do that because a rising tide raises all ships.  I think a lot of it has to do with our educational system as we do not promote technical skills and mathematics early in life. 

Every western country besides us begins dedicated programs to promote science, engineering, and math early on sending the brightest minds to sector-specific training in their teens.  We make kids take bs classes that will never help them, send them to liberal arts colleges for $25k a year, and wonder why the Russians dominate economics programs at the graduate/doctoral level, and other foreigners lead in other fields (Indians in technology for example). 

 

[RokNRole]

Is this the new Star Wars droid?

 

[Higgs]

Did it seriously take you 20 minutes to find that?  I already said that in some fields this is absolutely true, but for good reason.  Already covered that Chacci. 

So I guess you were arguing with yourself then.  

I said from the get-go that one of the issues with the H-1B program was wage stagnation, which you apparently now agree with.  I think the problem here is that you got rattled and went off building a straw man implying that I said the H-1B program was the "primary" cause of wage stagnation.  

So the H-1B visa program is the primary cause of wage stagnation?  lolololol

 

[rojbk]

rising tide raises all ships

The middle class is really thriving right now

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Very interesting, at least something valuable will come from this thread. 

For the bolded why do you think that is?  Even with all the innovation, college programs, and paths to great paying jobs this still happens?  Is it that our educational systems fail to teach the critical components of emerging IT technology and are too general? 

Yeah, not quite sure I can answer properly in regards to the education side although I think you are probably right regarding failure around emerging technologies and being too general. I'm on the sales side st my company so I'm not directly involved in recruiting our talent. However, what I hear from ur recruiting teams is that it is just a different culture when it comes to Indians and how they learn IT as it becomes such a focus early on in their lives, almost singular.

Also, when it comes to emerging technologies there are more than a fair amount of H1s who will fake it until they make it. They will claim expertise in a certain niche skill set and then study and watch YouTube lessons on it until they really are proficient. 

 

[Doctor Detroit]

So I guess you were arguing with yourself then.  

I said from the get-go that one of the issues with the H-1B program was wage stagnation, which you apparently now agree with.  I think the problem here is that you got rattled and went off building a straw man implying that I said the H-1B program was the "primary" cause of wage stagnation.  

I think you need to take a break from the internet, you're almost delusional at this point.  There are things wrong with the h1b program, but Trump's plan doesn't really address them.  Additionally you are moving the goalposts to make your argument based on a few sectors, H-1B is a program that finds workers for hundreds of fields.  Not all of them face wage stagnation because of h1b.  Is that clear or do you need this translated into mouth-breather? 

 

[matuski]

I was just vouching for Higgs a bit. 

Not one of your finer moments.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

The middle class is really thriving right now

You really got your little panties in a bunch the other day and said I was stalking you and you allegedly put me on ignore.

Yet every time I post, there you are.  I don't like dudes, sorry. 

 

[matuski]

The middle class is really thriving right now

They should work harder and pull themselves up by the bootstraps, right?

 

[timschochet]

Like every government program, there are no doubt good and bad aspects. 

But IMO the only reason that Trump has taken any action on this is because it's part of his xenophobic, bigoted, anti-immigrant agenda. Or, to be more exact, Steve Brannon's agenda. 

 

[rojbk]

They should work harder and pull themselves up by the bootstraps, right?

https://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/05/13/top-ceos-now-make-373-times-the-average-rank-and-file-worker/

 

[MaxThreshold]

Like every government program, there are no doubt good and bad aspects. 

But IMO the only reason that Trump has taken any action on this is because it's part of his xenophobic, bigoted, anti-immigrant agenda. Or, to be more exact, Steve Brannon's agenda. 

Everyone Drink! 

 

[matuski]

https://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/05/13/top-ceos-now-make-373-times-the-average-rank-and-file-worker/

So they should become CEOs right? Their predicament is nobody's fault but their own?

 

[rockaction]

Not one of your finer moments.

Well, I don't know what to say to that. Perhaps if he was treated more kindly, his interactions might be different. 

Like MT once said, "sometimes a kind word" means millions. I think anybody offering to meet IRL from this board is likely pretty cool. I like Higgs as a person. Too bad.  

 

[matuski]

Like every government program, there are no doubt good and bad aspects. 

But IMO the only reason that Trump has taken any action on this is because it's part of his xenophobic, bigoted, anti-immigrant agenda. Or, to be more exact, Steve Brannon's agenda. 

You really go this this well far too often.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

https://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/05/13/top-ceos-now-make-373-times-the-average-rank-and-file-worker/

Poor Higgs, even his little Alt-Right puppy is making my point.

Tough break man, you'll run those circles next time.   

 

[matuski]

Well, I don't know what to say to that. Perhaps if he was treated more kindly, his interactions might be different. 

Like MT once said, "sometimes a kind word" means millions. I think anybody offering to meet IRL from this board is likely pretty cool. I like Higgs as a person. Too bad.  

Two words - General Tso.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Well, I don't know what to say to that. Perhaps if he was treated more kindly, his interactions might be different. 

Look in the Trump thread, he pretty much insults people all day these days.  The only way to talk to these people is to talk to them like they talk to everyone else. 

 

[rockaction]

Two words - General Tso.

He got his life threatened. I defended him then, too. That was absurd behavior on this board.  

 

[Higgs]

The way I've always looked at it is that we want the best people doing the most important work.  If that is an American, great.  If you can find better doctors, scientists, and technical experts from other countries to make U.S. businesses better then you do that because a rising tide raises all ships.  I think a lot of it has to do with our educational system as we do not promote technical skills and mathematics early in life. 

Every western country besides us begins dedicated programs to promote science, engineering, and math early on sending the brightest minds to sector-specific training in their teens.  We make kids take bs classes that will never help them, send them to liberal arts colleges for $25k a year, and wonder why the Russians dominate economics programs at the graduate/doctoral level, and other foreigners lead in other fields (Indians in technology for example). 

In most cases that works just fine.  But what I am talking about (and the reason Trump issued the EO) are the abuses where the best people aren't always the H-1B's being brought in.  I can tell you from firsthand experience (FU Limpy) that the Indian IT workers brought in weren't even close in quality to the American workers they replaced.  So why do the abuses occur?  Because in the case I'm familiar with, the American corporation only sees the bottom line costs and savings.  They don't see the "hidden costs" - like all the rework that has to be done, or the extra time it takes to explain things to the H-1B's who don't know the business, barely speak English, and are from a culture where they don't speak up if they don't understand something...  The big shot VP who made the decision to use an IT vendor sees the instant savings being projected (mostly due to the fact that the Indian workers are getting paid half as much and with minimal benefits).  A year later, when the business people are working twice as hard doing a lot of the work the American BA's used to do - nobody sees that cost.  It gets lost in the Organization, or the business people who aren't producing enough take the fall.  And try telling the VP who made that outsourcing decision that his baby is ugly.

 

[rockaction]

Look in the Trump thread, he pretty much insults people all day these days.  The only way to talk to these people is to talk to them like they talk to everyone else. 

Ah, that could be. I'm staying out of those threads for the most part. I can't stand the subject or the people's behavior in those threads.  

 

[matuski]

He got his life threatened. I defended him then, too. That was absurd behavior on this board.  

You and I remember that much differently.

 

[Higgs]

I think you need to take a break from the internet, you're almost delusional at this point.  There are things wrong with the h1b program, but Trump's plan doesn't really address them.  Additionally you are moving the goalposts to make your argument based on a few sectors, H-1B is a program that finds workers for hundreds of fields.  Not all of them face wage stagnation because of h1b.  Is that clear or do you need this translated into mouth-breather? 

You lose Doc.  Happens to the best of us.  Lay off the sauce.  Your mind will be sharper.  

 

[rockaction]

You and I remember that much differently.

I remember roadkill1292 wishing him dead, and Higgs got worried. I know, because I was in that thread. That was worrisome, and he contacted Joe about it, rightfully. Okay, I told him roadkill was being hyperbolic, but Higgs has kids and a life and did what he thought best. 

I'm glad he's back, and will put politics aside, much like I do with you guys. 

I'm a rare breed. I like liberals, anarchists, conservatives, national greatness people. I just tend to gravitate here (this message board) and Higgs has reached out to me in nice ways. I like that. 

Solidarity! All unity! 

 

[Doctor Detroit]

In most cases that works just fine.  But what I am talking about (and the reason Trump issued the EO) are the abuses where the best people aren't always the H-1B's being brought in.  I can tell you from firsthand experience (FU Limpy) that the Indian IT workers brought in weren't even close in quality to the American workers they replaced.  So why do the abuses occur?  Because in the case I'm familiar with, the American corporation only sees the bottom line costs and savings.  They don't see the "hidden costs" - like all the rework that has to be done, or the extra time it takes to explain things to the H-1B's who don't know the business, barely speak English, and are from a culture where they don't speak up if they don't understand something...  The big shot VP who made the decision to use an IT vendor sees the instant savings being projected (mostly due to the fact that the Indian workers are getting paid half as much and with minimal benefits).  A year later, when the business people are working twice as hard doing a lot of the work the American BA's used to do - nobody sees that cost.  It gets lost in the Organization, or the business people who aren't producing enough take the fall.  And try telling the VP who made that outsourcing decision that his baby is ugly.

You should have said all this earlier IMO.

Sure, nothing is perfect in a scenario where you are hiring unknowns from unknown places.  But from my experience having to find and hire contractors who can get a TS clearance, the roadblocks in finding the perfect candidate is never easy and I get U.S. citizens.  They lie on their resume, they lie in the interview, and they lie the first week on the job.  Three weeks later t doesn't seem like they are gonna work out, and luckily they lied on their security paperwork and omitted a DUI. 

But all this costs me months of production, and I am pretty careful with candidates.  Now I try to hire only people I know, or that people I trust no.  No more people right off the street because it's not worth the effort. 

 

[Doctor Detroit]

You lose Doc.  Happens to the best of us.  Lay off the sauce.  Your mind will be sharper.  

You serious? 

The alcohol reference doesn't surprise me, you have generally trended into insults when you can't hold your own ground.  Tobias, Koya, LD, Saints, etc, etc, etc.  Everyone is fair game right?  Also if you think someone was on the sauce based on your past, I would find it strange that you would go that direction.  But you're a real piece of #### these days, so it doesn't surprise me. 

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Ok, let's get into the real reason Higgs started this thread.

BAN ALL MUSLIMS NOW AND FOREVER!!!!!!!!

 

[Limp Ditka]

 at 'these days'

 

[matuski]

Yea.. different pages there.

 

[rojbk]

Is that because his sister is allegedly black?  Seems racist. 

You serious? 

The alcohol reference doesn't surprise me, you have generally trended into insults when you can't hold your own ground.  Tobias, Koya, LD, Saints, etc, etc, etc.  Everyone is fair game right?  Also if you think someone was on the sauce based on your past, I would find it strange that you would go that direction.  But you're a real piece of #### these days, so it doesn't surprise me. 

You made everything fair game the moment you brought his family up

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

As far as I know Trump wants to keep the program but clean up the abuses.  Your case looks to be exactly what the program was created for.  You should have no troubles.

The problem is what he means by that is not what a normal sane person means. As usual, there are no details. The only proposal I have heard is to raise the minimum salary required to something ridiculously high that would totally kill the program.

 

[Higgs]

You serious? 

The alcohol reference doesn't surprise me, you have generally trended into insults when you can't hold your own ground.  Tobias, Koya, LD, Saints, etc, etc, etc.  Everyone is fair game right?  Also if you think someone was on the sauce based on your past, I would find it strange that you would go that direction.  But you're a real piece of #### these days, so it doesn't surprise me. 

Typical bully.  Can dish it out but can't take it.  You had one purpose coming into this thread and it wasn't to learn about an important issue or debate the merits of it.  And in the process you got your ### handed to you.  You kind of deserved it.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

You made everything fair game the moment you brought his family up

You really got your little panties in a bunch the other day and said I was stalking you and you allegedly put me on ignore.

Yet every time I post, there you are.  I don't like dudes, sorry. 

Alright, either way this has been a long time coming, putting you on ignore since the only time you engage me is to trash me. Good luck on your journey to the 100k mark, almost there.

 

[Higgs]

You made everything fair game the moment you brought his family up

Exactly.  The guy gets frustrated in a political argument and gets all sorts of nasty.  About time someone called him on it.  People been complaining about it behind the scenes for a while now.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Typical bully.  Can dish it out but can't take it.  You had one purpose coming into this thread and it wasn't to learn about an important issue or debate the merits of it.  And in the process you got your ### handed to you.  You kind of deserved it.

I did?  Anyone else besides Roj believe this? 

Look, it's not my fault you almost drank yourself to death.  Try not to project on the great Americans like me who post here, it is beneath you.   

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Exactly.  The guy gets frustrated in a political argument and gets all sorts of nasty.  About time someone called him on it.  People been complaining about it behind the scenes for a while now.

Link?  You have been nasty for weeks in the Trump thread, would you like some links?  Just saw one directed at MassRaider when I was looking for DFSguys post. 

 

[Higgs]

I did?  Anyone else besides Roj believe this? 

Yes you did.  Go back and re-read it.  You came into this topic and your first post was an article about a racist pos who murdered an innocent Indian H-1B employee.  And then you said that my over-the-top rhetoric as a 2nd/3rd generation American was abysmal shtick.  Here were my posts prior to your initial post.  You are welcome to point out where my over-the-top rhetoric was.  I'll hang up and listen:

Good to see Trump setting the wheels in motion for ferreting out abuses in this program.  I've seen these abuses firsthand and it's corporate greed at its worst.  Another issue where Democrats should have been fighting on the side of American workers.

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/04/18/h-1b-experts-trumps-order-elected/

An entire IT Department getting laid off so the business could utilize low cost Indian employees from an IT vendor.  The H-1B program was only supposed to be used to bring in workers when there weren't qualified Americans to do the job.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4037392/amp/Disney-fired-250-American-workers-replaced-Indian-staff-visas-suit-says.html

Not really.  The people coming over here are happy to be in America, and most of the jobs and companies involved are on the high end.  Quite honestly the best part of the H-1B program was meeting and becoming friends with the Indians.  They are the nicest, most respectful, hardest working people I've ever met.  My beef isn't with them at all.

No problem with that scenario - at all.  That is what the program was designed for.  But it was not designed for companies to fire American workers do they can replace them at half the salary and with no benefits. That is the abuse Trump is looking to rectify.

Not related.  That is an H-2B Issue.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Sure, I'll play.  You have no beef with the Indians, who is your beef with then? 

 

[rojbk]

Sure, I'll play.  You have no beef with the Indians, who is your beef with then? 

What about the Indians that only hire Indians? Does that ever happen and are you okay with them doing that when it does happen?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

What about the Indians that only hire Indians? Does that ever happen and are you okay with them doing that when it does happen?

My link

 

[Higgs]

Sure, I'll play.  You have no beef with the Indians, who is your beef with then? 

The American companies who abuse the H-1B program, just as I discussed in this thread.  You may want to read it again.  You were obviously on full tilt first time.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

The American companies who abuse the H-1B program, just as I discussed in this thread.  You may want to read it again.  You were obviously on full tilt first time.

No I've read enough and I had a good conversation with Baloney Sandwich and actually learned something from someone with experience in H1B application.  All you gave us was a #### sandwich, pretty standard fare for you these days.  Best of luck!  Keep me updated on who hates me "behind the scenes." 

 

[Higgs]

No I've read enough and I had a good conversation with Baloney Sandwich and actually learned something from someone with experience in H1B application.  All you gave us was a #### sandwich, pretty standard fare for you these days.  Best of luck!  Keep me updated on who hates me "behind the scenes." 

Got it.  You're bowing out with your tail between your legs because you know you ####ed up coming in here half cocked with false assumptions.  A real man would have realized he was wrong and backed off.  Night night chief.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

People should buy a full subscription to FBG to read this stuff.  Gold Jerry, gold!