H-1B Visa Program (4 Viewers)

[timschochet]

You really go this this well far too often.

No Trump does. 

Look we're living in a time right now in which millions of Americans are afraid of foreigners coming here and taking their jobs or causing terrorism or ruining white American culture or threatening white demographics, or all four. I wish this wasn't so but it is so. 

Weve lived through these times before, usually whenever there is a great amount of economic dislocation and uncertainty. It's always ugly. It's ugly this time too. All we can do is call it out as xenophobia and bigotry, point out the truth that almost always contradicts the fears, and try to defeat the politicians and anyone else  who spreads this message of fear. Eventually we'll get over it. 

 

[jon_mx]

Indians are the best IT people....it is known

True.  But they can still answer the phone from India and still provide us with step by step instructions in their unintelligible heavy accent.

 

[AAABatteries]

What are the abuses that you have seen?

I haven't finished the thread but this is one area where I have some first hand experience.  My understanding of H-1B is to allow companies to hire foreign workers at lower wages when they can't find qualified Americans.

The problem is and where the abuse comes in is that a lot of these companies are laying off skilled American workers that are competent just to save money and make the bottom line look better.  Now some may argue who cares, let the market work it out but I'm just pointing out the abuse as the program was intended.  I'm on record that it's corporate greed at work - it's difficult to get too many people up in arms about it because 1. they do cap the numbers and 2. These are middle class folks (probably upper middle class) and it's undeniable that unskilled/low wage workers have many more obstacles/challenges in their work.

 

[AAABatteries]

Also, when it comes to emerging technologies there are more than a fair amount of H1s who will fake it until they make it. They will claim expertise in a certain niche skill set and then study and watch YouTube lessons on it until they really are proficient. 

This happens all too frequently but I'd argue this is on the companies to have a better interviewing process to weed these people out.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

This happens all too frequently but I'd argue this is on the companies to have a better interviewing process to weed these people out.

Absolutely but it happens a fair amount that the person that interviews isn't the person that shows up for the job.  A lot of times these guys are located in one location and then moving for the job in another place so interviews are done on the phone which makes the screening tougher. The shady companies that hold these folks visas pull this crap and it can be tough for anyone to totally filter it out.

 

[kface]

I work in engineering...so many colleagues are on H1-Bs.  My best friend is a Dr as well and again so many of his colleagues are H1-Bs.  What Trump doesn't understand  is that this country runs on immigrants.  You can mine your coal for a couple of years but without your indian dr. you are going to die pretty quick...

 

[The Commish]

Like every government program, there are no doubt good and bad aspects. 

But IMO the only reason that Trump has taken any action on this is because it's part of his xenophobic, bigoted, anti-immigrant agenda. Or, to be more exact, Steve Brannon's agenda. 

Executive Orders aren't "action" in terms of this topic.  Legislation is action.  An Executive Order here is nothing more than political red meat thrown to his starving base waiting for him to actually get something accomplished.  

 

[Steve Tasker]

Off-topic but the H-2B program has always really depressed me.  My hometown had a dumpy amusement park, it wasn't the worst in the world but nothing to write home about.  Every kid in town, including me and my 2 siblings, worked there as a teen, it was a huge summer part-time employer.  

Every summer they bring in - or at least they used to - a ton of Ukrainian/Russian kids to work temp jobs.  A few years later I was working in the public library and noticed a lot of these kids coming in to use the free internet.  For the most part they didn't speak English very well, but one or two could speak passably, and they told us that the amusement park just crams them like 6-to-a-2-bedroom-apt right across the street from the amusement park for the entire summer.  No transportation, no computer, no internet, just a TV and some basic furniture.  I felt really bad for these kids...I guarantee it was advertised as some glamorous job like working at Disney or something....but instead you're trapped in a suburb in upstate NY, thousands of miles from home with no one who speaks your language and nothing to do other than walk to work or walk to the library.  Depressing.

 

[moleculo]

Off-topic but the H-2B program has always really depressed me.  My hometown had a dumpy amusement park, it wasn't the worst in the world but nothing to write home about.  Every kid in town, including me and my 2 siblings, worked there as a teen, it was a huge summer part-time employer.  

Every summer they bring in - or at least they used to - a ton of Ukrainian/Russian kids to work temp jobs.  A few years later I was working in the public library and noticed a lot of these kids coming in to use the free internet.  For the most part they didn't speak English very well, but one or two could speak passably, and they told us that the amusement park just crams them like 6-to-a-2-bedroom-apt right across the street from the amusement park for the entire summer.  No transportation, no computer, no internet, just a TV and some basic furniture.  I felt really bad for these kids...I guarantee it was advertised as some glamorous job like working at Disney or something....but instead you're trapped in a suburb in upstate NY, thousands of miles from home with no one who speaks your language and nothing to do other than walk to work or walk to the library.  Depressing.

I've noticed our local Charlotte amusement part (Carowinds) has a lot of Russian/Ukrainian kids working there too.  No idea on their housing situation.  Actually, digging a little further, these kids are here on a J1 visa through the Exchange Visitor Program run by the U.S. Department of State.

looking at this visa, it's a pretty sweet deal if you can get it.

1. our minimum wage would be a hell of a lot of money when compared to other countries.  These kids are making (relatively) bank. while the amusement park can get away with paying mimimum wage.
   
2. the kids are basically locked in - they aren't going to jump ship for $0.25 somewhere else.
   
3. employers don't have to match SS, medicare, or unemployment tax...per wiki, "A typical employer who hires 5 Work/Travel J-1 visitors and pays $8/hour each may save over $2317 in a typical 4-months season."
   

I don't know how operating a roller coaster counts as "camp counselor", but so be it.  I assume the State Dept. contends that winning hearts and minds and exporting American culture makes this program worthwhile (vs the cost of some displaced American seasonal workers).

 

[E Street Brat]

Really, what haven't you seen firsthand?

I work for a south American company that routinely brings up employees for the best and highest paying positions.

Even the lower  SA employees are promoted at a higher rate and receive higher pay than those doing the same work. And you don't even want to be a women around here.

They also receive benefits like free airline travel back to SA and yearly bonuses that  employs are not eligible for.

I'm not taking a political stance on this issue. Just sharing a personal experience.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Off-topic but the H-2B program has always really depressed me.  My hometown had a dumpy amusement park, it wasn't the worst in the world but nothing to write home about.  Every kid in town, including me and my 2 siblings, worked there as a teen, it was a huge summer part-time employer.  

Every summer they bring in - or at least they used to - a ton of Ukrainian/Russian kids to work temp jobs.  A few years later I was working in the public library and noticed a lot of these kids coming in to use the free internet.  For the most part they didn't speak English very well, but one or two could speak passably, and they told us that the amusement park just crams them like 6-to-a-2-bedroom-apt right across the street from the amusement park for the entire summer.  No transportation, no computer, no internet, just a TV and some basic furniture.  I felt really bad for these kids...I guarantee it was advertised as some glamorous job like working at Disney or something....but instead you're trapped in a suburb in upstate NY, thousands of miles from home with no one who speaks your language and nothing to do other than walk to work or walk to the library.  Depressing.

That is like working at Disney when you are from the Ukraine

 

[kface]

I did?  Anyone else besides Roj believe this? 

Look, it's not my fault you almost drank yourself to death.  Try not to project on the great Americans like me who post here, it is beneath you.   

These two operate in their own world.  I wonder if they cuddle each other at night?

 

[Higgs]

I haven't finished the thread but this is one area where I have some first hand experience.  My understanding of H-1B is to allow companies to hire foreign workers at lower wages when they can't find qualified Americans.

The problem is and where the abuse comes in is that a lot of these companies are laying off skilled American workers that are competent just to save money and make the bottom line look better.  Now some may argue who cares, let the market work it out but I'm just pointing out the abuse as the program was intended.  I'm on record that it's corporate greed at work - it's difficult to get too many people up in arms about it because 1. they do cap the numbers and 2. These are middle class folks (probably upper middle class) and it's undeniable that unskilled/low wage workers have many more obstacles/challenges in their work.

Good post.  Regarding the bolded, this is not always true.  The guys who got let go in my example were highly paid COBOL programmers who spent their entire career with one company.  Try finding an IT job with legacy programming skills.  A lot of these guys went through severe midlife trauma as a result of this.  I had several friends affected and it was horrible to watch.  A lot of them were left broken down and humiliated.

This video sums it up perfectly.  It is the testimony of a Disney employee whose IT job was lost due to an H-1B abuse.  It is tough to watch, but it explains it better than I ever could.  https://youtu.be/1fod_ADpgVo

 

[Higgs]

Executive Orders aren't "action" in terms of this topic.  Legislation is action.  An Executive Order here is nothing more than political red meat thrown to his starving base waiting for him to actually get something accomplished.  

Executive Orders are most definitely action.  Whether any legislative changes come out of it are a different matter.

 

[The Commish]

Executive Orders are most definitely action.  Whether any legislative changes come out of it are a different matter.

I understand why you are setting the bar where you are, but it's sad.  I probably should have said "meaningful action".  For the most part, the Executive orders of this admin are toothless.....thankfully.

 

[Higgs]

I understand why you are setting the bar where you are, but it's sad.  I probably should have said "meaningful action".  For the most part, the Executive orders of this admin are toothless.....thankfully.

Yeah well your broad brush with respect to this particular EO is just plain incorrect. Which is also sad.

 

[The Commish]

Yeah well your broad brush with respect to this particular EO is just plain incorrect. Which is also sad.

 

ETA:  It's, at best, a warning shot  Hope you didn't hurt your back digging the hole to set the bar of "action" here.

 

[The Commish]

All it does is ask for proposals and suggestions

Sec. 5.  Ensuring the Integrity of the Immigration System in Order to “Hire American.”  (a)  In order to advance the policy outlined in section 2(b) of this order, the Secretary of State, the Attorney General, the Secretary of Labor, and the Secretary of Homeland Security shall, as soon as practicable, and consistent with applicable law, propose new rules and issue new guidance, to supersede or revise previous rules and guidance if appropriate, to protect the interests of United States workers in the administration of our immigration system, including through the prevention of fraud or abuse.

(b)  In order to promote the proper functioning of the H-1B visa program, the Secretary of State, the Attorney General, the Secretary of Labor, and the Secretary of Homeland Security shall, as soon as practicable, suggest reforms to help ensure that H-1B visas are awarded to the most skilled or highest-paid petition beneficiaries.

aka....."toothless" by any meaningful measure    He's essentially ordering people to study the current rules, which I guess is a step in the right direction...at least be familiar with existing legislation for a change.

 

[Higgs]

All it does is ask for proposals and suggestions

aka....."toothless" by any meaningful measure    He's essentially ordering people to study the current rules, which I guess is a step in the right direction...at least be familiar with existing legislation for a change.

Well, first of all an Execution Order isn't legislation.  

Trump has already made changes to the way the applications are being processed.    This EO calls for the strict enforcement of all laws governing entry into the United States of labor from abroad associated with the H-1B program.  The EO further calls on the Departments of Labor, Justice, Homeland Security and State to take prompt action to crack down on fraud and abuse.  Lastly, the EO sets the stage for the Executive bodies to investigate and propose changes that align with very detailed and specific guidance (provided in a Background Briefing) as to what Trump would like to see.  

The good news is that Trump is focusing on the H-1B issues that have bi-partisan support, such as changing the lottery system so that preference is given to the highest paying jobs requiring advanced degrees.  This is the area where there really is a need and where there is a dearth of available American talent.  Such a change would favor established American technology companies, which tend to pay high wages, and hurt the outsourcing companies, which hire immigrants to do more basic work at lower wages.

Another area Trump appears to be focusing on is insuring that there really aren't qualified Americans available to do the job.  Under the H-1B program all companies have to attest that they tried to find an American, but all you have to do right now is check a box.  That area needs to be reformed.  It is a complete violation of the law for companies to use the H-1B program to outsource their current IT Department to companies like Cognizant employing Indian H-1B's.

As expected, mouth breathers like yourself have jumped to the conclusion that this is an insignificant execution action.  It's actually very thorough and well thought out.  Like it or not, Team Trump is learning from their mistakes and improving.

 

[The Commish]

All it does is ask for proposals and suggestions

aka....."toothless" by any meaningful measure    He's essentially ordering people to study the current rules, which I guess is a step in the right direction...at least be familiar with existing legislation for a change.

Well, first of all an Execution Order isn't legislation.  

Trump has already made changes to the way the applications are being processed.    This EO calls for the strict enforcement of all laws governing entry into the United States of labor from abroad associated with the H-1B program.  The EO further calls on the Departments of Labor, Justice, Homeland Security and State to take prompt action to crack down on fraud and abuse.  Lastly, the EO sets the stage for the Executive bodies to investigate and propose changes that align with very detailed and specific guidance (provided in a Background Briefing) as to what Trump would like to see.  

The good news is that Trump is focusing on the H-1B issues that have bi-partisan support, such as changing the lottery system so that preference is given to the highest paying jobs requiring advanced degrees.  This is the area where there really is a need and where there is a dearth of available American talent.  Such a change would favor established American technology companies, which tend to pay high wages, and hurt the outsourcing companies, which hire immigrants to do more basic work at lower wages.

Another area Trump appears to be focusing on is insuring that there really aren't qualified Americans available to do the job.  Under the H-1B program all companies have to attest that they tried to find an American, but all you have to do right now is check a box.  That area needs to be reformed.  It is a complete violation of the law for companies to use the H-1B program to outsource their current IT Department to companies like Cognizant employing Indian H-1B's.

As expected, mouth breathers like yourself have jumped to the conclusion that this is an insignificant execution action.  It's actually very thorough and well thought out.  Like it or not, Team Trump is learning from their mistakes and improving

You responded to my post saying the EO wasn't action rather, legislation is action.  We have a difference in what we expect from our politicians.  You have a much lower bar of expectations than I do.  This EO is telling people to apply the current laws as written and look at changes for the future.  That's it.  If you find that significant, good on ya.  I'm not impressed.  I wasn't impressed with the EOs Obama had that were similar in nature.  In the grand scheme of things, they are completely meaningless.  All they do is highlight the fact that our government doesn't even follow or make sure companies follow the rules they create.  Outside of that highlight it's a completely insignificant action.  But you are correct it IS an action.

Love the name calling.  Stay classy with that crap.  But there is something you should know about me.  I pray, everyday, that Trump improves.  It's necessary that he improves.  That this is considered by his defenders as "very thorough and well thought out" should tell us all how necessary it is that he improves.  That's where the bar's at right now.  And that is embarrassing by any reasonable measure.

Lastly I am of the opinion, likely for very different reasons, that the H-1B program needs to be revamped.  So does the H-2B, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.  That's a direct impact to Trump and his bottom line, so I don't expect even a whimper on that one.

ETA:  By the way...he can call on all these agencies to do all kinds of things, but it's on them to act.....aka, toothless by any reasonable measure.  As you pointed out...not legislation.  It's the equiv of a "strong objection" A Few Good Men style   

 

[babydemon90]

This is interesting, there must be a wide swath of experiences with this program.  I'm an IT manager - I have a direct report who is a H1-B visa holder, who frankly is very worried about the whole situation.  She makes as much as her US Citizen counterparts (I just got her a promotion), so she isn't bringing down anyone's salary.  Would be a pretty big hit for our team (a US company) if I lose her.  At least in my area (maybe it's our HR dept, I dunno), but I see very, very few good resume's for IT programmers - if a qualified citizen walked in the door, I have an open position, they'd be hired.

Sounds like my experience may not be typical though - I don't know what the restrictions are, but requiring advanced degrees and minimum salary is fine - but as a rule, I guarantee our US companies are better off attracting good talent here, vs having our companies leave to go elsewhere.  Qualified immigrants are a positive to the economy, not a drain.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

This is interesting, there must be a wide swath of experiences with this program.  I'm an IT manager - I have a direct report who is a H1-B visa holder, who frankly is very worried about the whole situation.  She makes as much as her US Citizen counterparts (I just got her a promotion), so she isn't bringing down anyone's salary.  Would be a pretty big hit for our team (a US company) if I lose her.  At least in my area (maybe it's our HR dept, I dunno), but I see very, very few good resume's for IT programmers - if a qualified citizen walked in the door, I have an open position, they'd be hired.

Sounds like my experience may not be typical though - I don't know what the restrictions are, but requiring advanced degrees and minimum salary is fine - but as a rule, I guarantee our US companies are better off attracting good talent here, vs having our companies leave to go elsewhere.  Qualified immigrants are a positive to the economy, not a drain.

Pics?