Baseball Prospectus's Will Carroll of course.whose Will Carroll?
Writer for Baseball Prospectus. He's their injury expert and sometimes rumor follower.According to his twittering - MLBN said that it is very close and should be announced within 24 hours and a 32 jersey has been spotted in the Phils clubhouse.whose Will Carroll?
Joking, right? Didn't they retire Steve Carlton's number?Writer for Baseball Prospectus. He's their injury expert and sometimes rumor follower.According to his twittering - MLBN said that it is very close and should be announced within 24 hours and a 32 jersey has been spotted in the Phils clubhouse.whose Will Carroll?
Oh. Could be. Sorry.Joking, right? Didn't they retire Steve Carlton's number?Writer for Baseball Prospectus. He's their injury expert and sometimes rumor follower.According to his twittering - MLBN said that it is very close and should be announced within 24 hours and a 32 jersey has been spotted in the Phils clubhouse.whose Will Carroll?
LOL FAILOh. Could be. Sorry.Joking, right? Didn't they retire Steve Carlton's number?Writer for Baseball Prospectus. He's their injury expert and sometimes rumor follower.According to his twittering - MLBN said that it is very close and should be announced within 24 hours and a 32 jersey has been spotted in the Phils clubhouse.whose Will Carroll?
I'd pull the trigger, who knows how Drabek will turn out. Happ's stuff isn't studly, but his 7-0 record and nice ERA have his value inflated. He's a flyball pitcher going to a rough division.
The goal is to win championships, not win Baseball America top farm awards.
That's it??!!?? Oh good lord do it DO IT NOW!!!!!!
The sloths that call into sports radio here were pretty funny. Well, maybe I'd trade Happ for halladay straight up but i dunno about putting any prospects in it. All it took at that time was one or two good starts in a row and no one would part with that guy.That said, Lee is definitely plan 1B for the phils if Amaro thinks Riccardi price is too steep. They are going to get one of the two.The goal is to win championships, not win Baseball America top farm awards.Flags fly forever.You should read the Rays board - dopes debating the merits of Jeremy Hellickson vs. 50+ starts from Cliff Lee. What's amazing is anyone thinking Hellickson snags Lee. What's even more amazing is some of the mouthbreathers saying they wouldn't do it.
Correct. Some of us have been waiting for this.Do I have this right? Steve Carlton is coming out of retirement?
Does this make anyone else feel old, btw?Philly's done a great job of stockpiling talent, agree that they should pull the trigger here. I think Carrasco will ultimately be better than Happ or Drabek.Mr. Pickles said:Doug Drabek coming back is more of a surprise, frankly.
Carrasco is a good example of why you dont overvalue these can't miss prospects. He has not made any kind of leap this year in AAA and Drabek has cruised past him as their best prospect. Decent stuff but no head on his shoulders. He should have been up by now.Does this make anyone else feel old, btw?Philly's done a great job of stockpiling talent, agree that they should pull the trigger here. I think Carrasco will ultimately be better than Happ or Drabek.Mr. Pickles said:Doug Drabek coming back is more of a surprise, frankly.
Carrasco has been more hittable this year than he has in the past but I actually think he's making progress, not regressing. He's a K pitcher and he's gonna give up homers but what he can't do is have a 5BB/9 ratio and I think he's trying to become a pitcher now letting guys put balls in play. The knock on Carrasco prior to this year was him not being able to control his fastball and being inconsistent with the change. With three possible + pitches if he can develop consistency I like his chances to be at least a middle of the rotation guy with a pretty high ceiling. He's just 22 and it takes a few bumps and bruises for some guys to develop into what scouts think their potential is. I think he'll definitely be better than Happ and I think Drabek is overrated at the moment. What Drabek has is an excellent pitching motion and mechanics and a great curve but I've read mixed reports on his fastball and whether he has the movement to get it by major league hitters. The one thing I can say for certain is that he looks damn good just a year removed from TJ surgery and he probably will be better going forward. Guy throws strikes, so if he can work that change into a third plus pitch he could be a really good one for a long-time and I think his bust factor is much lower than Carrasco's. I do think he's a bit overrated though, I'd send him packing for Halliday while everyone is so enamored with him.Carrasco is a good example of why you dont overvalue these can't miss prospects. He has not made any kind of leap this year in AAA and Drabek has cruised past him as their best prospect. Decent stuff but no head on his shoulders. He should have been up by now.Does this make anyone else feel old, btw?Philly's done a great job of stockpiling talent, agree that they should pull the trigger here. I think Carrasco will ultimately be better than Happ or Drabek.Mr. Pickles said:Doug Drabek coming back is more of a surprise, frankly.
looks like he's a nobody.whose Will Carroll?
Pretty much nailed that one on the head. I forgot that Carrasco was still just 22. Drabek looked pretty good in the Future Stars game, fwiw - not that it's worth much at this point.Happ is so average, it pisses me off that the front office is balking at this. We have another OF (Taylor) who is in the top 25 of BA prospects still.Carrasco has been more hittable this year than he has in the past but I actually think he's making progress, not regressing. He's a K pitcher and he's gonna give up homers but what he can't do is have a 5BB/9 ratio and I think he's trying to become a pitcher now letting guys put balls in play. The knock on Carrasco prior to this year was him not being able to control his fastball and being inconsistent with the change. With three possible + pitches if he can develop consistency I like his chances to be at least a middle of the rotation guy with a pretty high ceiling. He's just 22 and it takes a few bumps and bruises for some guys to develop into what scouts think their potential is. I think he'll definitely be better than Happ and I think Drabek is overrated at the moment. What Drabek has is an excellent pitching motion and mechanics and a great curve but I've read mixed reports on his fastball and whether he has the movement to get it by major league hitters. The one thing I can say for certain is that he looks damn good just a year removed from TJ surgery and he probably will be better going forward. Guy throws strikes, so if he can work that change into a third plus pitch he could be a really good one for a long-time and I think his bust factor is much lower than Carrasco's. I do think he's a bit overrated though, I'd send him packing for Halliday while everyone is so enamored with him.Carrasco is a good example of why you dont overvalue these can't miss prospects. He has not made any kind of leap this year in AAA and Drabek has cruised past him as their best prospect. Decent stuff but no head on his shoulders. He should have been up by now.Does this make anyone else feel old, btw?Philly's done a great job of stockpiling talent, agree that they should pull the trigger here. I think Carrasco will ultimately be better than Happ or Drabek.Mr. Pickles said:Doug Drabek coming back is more of a surprise, frankly.
Until they win one, you aren't getting over it. I can get over almost anything, a World series loss isn't one of them.I imagine Philly winning the Series last year has to play a part in this. Doc would be on that team by now if the Rays won that series. ####in' Joe Blanton and Jamie Moyer. Still pisses me off.
I mean, really...Joe Blanton and Jamie Moyer. Jesus Christ.Until they win one, you aren't getting over it. I can get over almost anything, a World series loss isn't one of them.I imagine Philly winning the Series last year has to play a part in this. Doc would be on that team by now if the Rays won that series. ####in' Joe Blanton and Jamie Moyer. Still pisses me off.
Jeff Weaver and Anthony Reyes? Really?I mean, really...Joe Blanton and Jamie Moyer. Jesus Christ.Until they win one, you aren't getting over it. I can get over almost anything, a World series loss isn't one of them.I imagine Philly winning the Series last year has to play a part in this. Doc would be on that team by now if the Rays won that series. ####in' Joe Blanton and Jamie Moyer. Still pisses me off.
Jose Contreras and Freddy Garcia? Really?Oh wait, I'm doing this wrong, aren't I?Jeff Weaver and Anthony Reyes? Really?I mean, really...Joe Blanton and Jamie Moyer. Jesus Christ.Until they win one, you aren't getting over it. I can get over almost anything, a World series loss isn't one of them.I imagine Philly winning the Series last year has to play a part in this. Doc would be on that team by now if the Rays won that series. ####in' Joe Blanton and Jamie Moyer. Still pisses me off.
Bronson Arroyo and Bill Mueller? WTF?Jeff Weaver and Anthony Reyes? Really?I mean, really...Joe Blanton and Jamie Moyer. Jesus Christ.Until they win one, you aren't getting over it. I can get over almost anything, a World series loss isn't one of them.I imagine Philly winning the Series last year has to play a part in this. Doc would be on that team by now if the Rays won that series. ####in' Joe Blanton and Jamie Moyer. Still pisses me off.
Wow can't agree more. Balking on this trade due to Happ!? are they serious? This is getting Halladay without depleting the farm, which was the debate over the last month. I'd rather give up Happ then do a 3 for 1 or 4 for 1 deal. Take this deal now and don't let other teams steal Roy away. Happ hasn't seen teams for the 2nd time a round and he throws it 90. He's closer to Kendrick than Halladay.Pretty much nailed that one on the head. I forgot that Carrasco was still just 22. Drabek looked pretty good in the Future Stars game, fwiw - not that it's worth much at this point.Happ is so average, it pisses me off that the front office is balking at this. We have another OF (Taylor) who is in the top 25 of BA prospects still.Carrasco has been more hittable this year than he has in the past but I actually think he's making progress, not regressing. He's a K pitcher and he's gonna give up homers but what he can't do is have a 5BB/9 ratio and I think he's trying to become a pitcher now letting guys put balls in play. The knock on Carrasco prior to this year was him not being able to control his fastball and being inconsistent with the change. With three possible + pitches if he can develop consistency I like his chances to be at least a middle of the rotation guy with a pretty high ceiling. He's just 22 and it takes a few bumps and bruises for some guys to develop into what scouts think their potential is. I think he'll definitely be better than Happ and I think Drabek is overrated at the moment. What Drabek has is an excellent pitching motion and mechanics and a great curve but I've read mixed reports on his fastball and whether he has the movement to get it by major league hitters. The one thing I can say for certain is that he looks damn good just a year removed from TJ surgery and he probably will be better going forward. Guy throws strikes, so if he can work that change into a third plus pitch he could be a really good one for a long-time and I think his bust factor is much lower than Carrasco's. I do think he's a bit overrated though, I'd send him packing for Halliday while everyone is so enamored with him.Carrasco is a good example of why you dont overvalue these can't miss prospects. He has not made any kind of leap this year in AAA and Drabek has cruised past him as their best prospect. Decent stuff but no head on his shoulders. He should have been up by now.Does this make anyone else feel old, btw?Philly's done a great job of stockpiling talent, agree that they should pull the trigger here. I think Carrasco will ultimately be better than Happ or Drabek.Mr. Pickles said:Doug Drabek coming back is more of a surprise, frankly.
I really hope so, but now they are letting other teams in the mix. They should have pulled the trigger.http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4355464![]()
Just get the deal done Phils... hopefully they are just waiting til the end of the week, make toronto give in a little
For the phils to be in this position and not get a pitcher of halladay's ability is letting down the fans and their own players. We could set ourselves up with a better chance at winning more titles, something this franchise hasn't seen since the late 70's, early 80's. In ten years we'll be sayin we could've had Halladay like we could've had Randy Johnson in '93. Go big or go home Rueben.I really hope so, but now they are letting other teams in the mix. They should have pulled the trigger.http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4355464![]()
Just get the deal done Phils... hopefully they are just waiting til the end of the week, make toronto give in a little
I think this isHoos First said:From another site:ESPN's Jayson Stark believes the Jays have rejected Philadelphia's offer of J.A. Happ, Michael Taylor, Carlos Carrasco and Jason Donald for Roy Halladay.The Jays are believed to have previously asked for Kyle Drabek, Happ and Dominic Brown. There has to be a fair compromise to be found here. The Phillies shouldn't have to part with both Drabek and Happ, but they can give up the more highly regarded of the two in Drabek. Also, they could give up Brown over Taylor if it allows them to retain either Carrasco or Donald.
Does seem a little surprising considering that they wanted #1 and #3 in the Phils' system but turned down #2, #4 and #7 (roughly).I think this isHoos First said:From another site:ESPN's Jayson Stark believes the Jays have rejected Philadelphia's offer of J.A. Happ, Michael Taylor, Carlos Carrasco and Jason Donald for Roy Halladay.The Jays are believed to have previously asked for Kyle Drabek, Happ and Dominic Brown. There has to be a fair compromise to be found here. The Phillies shouldn't have to part with both Drabek and Happ, but they can give up the more highly regarded of the two in Drabek. Also, they could give up Brown over Taylor if it allows them to retain either Carrasco or Donald.If it isn't Toronto is never getting what they want for Halladay because that right there is too much IMO.
No, they don't but the common belief is that NOW is when he'll be worth the most to another team and thus when he would he net the largest bunch of prospects.If they wait until after this season, teams are trading for a one year rental and the Jays have paid for another half-season (roughly) of Halladay's salary even though they're obviously going nowhere.Personally, I'm surprised at some of the rumored packages that Ricciardi has turned down, especially the Angels offer.Wrigley said:Last I checked, TOR doesn't have to trade him away
They kind of do, even if they don't seem to realize it. But only if they want to be competitive over the next few years.Wrigley said:Last I checked, TOR doesn't have to trade him away
Good analysis. I understand Amaro's apprehension to trade prospects as that seems to be the mantra of the league nowadays but a move like this could be the start of his legacy.There are reports that Manua land Gillick want to pull the trigger but Amaro and the deveopment guys do not. They Phils just can't win in this situation if they don't do the trade.If they give up Drabek they get a shot at 2 more World Series while their core guys are all young and in their prime. The fans are happy and we know we're getting one of the top 3 pitchers in baseball. The ONLY way it fails is if Drabek turns into Curt Schilling in a few years, but really, if we get another World Series out of it everyone will be ok with that. And it's very defensible.However, if htey don't pull the trigger.Every fan in philly automatically things we WOULD have won the World Series if we had Halladay, even thought that's not fair it's exactly what is going to happen.So Drabek goes to a playoff competitor. So instead of pitching him 2 games per series, we face in for two games in a series.So imagine this city if we don't pull the trigger on the deal, Halladay kills us in teh playoffs, and Amaro is left holding the bag.Image the pressure on Drabek now! Not only does he have the top prospect pressure, but in teh minds of the entire city of Philadelphia and all their media and sports talk hosts, he cost us a World Series, so he better be great. If he doesnt' win 23 games in his first year he is a bust. I know it's ridiculous but you know it's exactly what's going to happen. This kid wont have a chance. And how many of these guys really pan out? Gavin Floyd, Tyler Green, and you could list 20 more "Next Steve Carltons" who were a bust coming up.If they don't make this trade they better find a way to win it all or Amaro is going to be villianized for the rest of his time in Philly. Everyone already gives all the WS credit to Gillick and Manual, as if it's not hard enough coming out from that shadow, screw this up and you're toast.No-brainer, i don't know what they're waiting for.
Wut?kickitforward said:Halladay clearly is a win for Philly - and the jays loss.But I don't think the Jays even care about being a contender any more!!
I'll add a couple more names.... Pat Combs, Mike Grace. At the absolute best Drabek is close to the same caliber OF THE GUY THEY ARE TRADING FOR. It'll kill me if they pass here because of him or some kid tearing up the Florida league. Word is they have engaged Cleveland. Lee has a very affordable 8 mil team option for next year, about 7 less then Halladay IIRC. Phils badly need to do this though as having Blanton (as good as he has been) going twice in a 7 game series instead of Lee or Halladay chills me. I like Joe and all but this has to be done.lombardi said:There are reports that Manua land Gillick want to pull the trigger but Amaro and the deveopment guys do not. They Phils just can't win in this situation if they don't do the trade.If they give up Drabek they get a shot at 2 more World Series while their core guys are all young and in their prime. The fans are happy and we know we're getting one of the top 3 pitchers in baseball. The ONLY way it fails is if Drabek turns into Curt Schilling in a few years, but really, if we get another World Series out of it everyone will be ok with that. And it's very defensible.However, if htey don't pull the trigger.Every fan in philly automatically things we WOULD have won the World Series if we had Halladay, even thought that's not fair it's exactly what is going to happen.So Drabek goes to a playoff competitor. So instead of pitching him 2 games per series, we face in for two games in a series.So imagine this city if we don't pull the trigger on the deal, Halladay kills us in teh playoffs, and Amaro is left holding the bag.Image the pressure on Drabek now! Not only does he have the top prospect pressure, but in teh minds of the entire city of Philadelphia and all their media and sports talk hosts, he cost us a World Series, so he better be great. If he doesnt' win 23 games in his first year he is a bust. I know it's ridiculous but you know it's exactly what's going to happen. This kid wont have a chance. And how many of these guys really pan out? Gavin Floyd, Tyler Green, and you could list 20 more "Next Steve Carltons" who were a bust coming up.If they don't make this trade they better find a way to win it all or Amaro is going to be villianized for the rest of his time in Philly. Everyone already gives all the WS credit to Gillick and Manual, as if it's not hard enough coming out from that shadow, screw this up and you're toast.No-brainer, i don't know what they're waiting for.
... Ben Rivera, Carlton Loewer, Bruce Ruffin...The story out of Cleveland is they would want Drabek in a deal for Lee, so you might as well go all in and give it up for Halladay. The Bartolo Colon trade was brought up today in comparison to the offers for Halladay. Cleveland received Lee, Sizemore, and Phillips and Montreal only had him for half a season. Halladay comes with an additional season and is arguably the better of the two at time of being dealt. So in reality, how ridiculous is the offer of Drabek, Happ and Brown? It seems pretty fair to me.I'll add a couple more names.... Pat Combs, Mike Grace. At the absolute best Drabek is close to the same caliber OF THE GUY THEY ARE TRADING FOR. It'll kill me if they pass here because of him or some kid tearing up the Florida league. Word is they have engaged Cleveland. Lee has a very affordable 8 mil team option for next year, about 7 less then Halladay IIRC. Phils badly need to do this though as having Blanton (as good as he has been) going twice in a 7 game series instead of Lee or Halladay chills me. I like Joe and all but this has to be done.lombardi said:There are reports that Manua land Gillick want to pull the trigger but Amaro and the deveopment guys do not. They Phils just can't win in this situation if they don't do the trade.If they give up Drabek they get a shot at 2 more World Series while their core guys are all young and in their prime. The fans are happy and we know we're getting one of the top 3 pitchers in baseball. The ONLY way it fails is if Drabek turns into Curt Schilling in a few years, but really, if we get another World Series out of it everyone will be ok with that. And it's very defensible.However, if htey don't pull the trigger.Every fan in philly automatically things we WOULD have won the World Series if we had Halladay, even thought that's not fair it's exactly what is going to happen.So Drabek goes to a playoff competitor. So instead of pitching him 2 games per series, we face in for two games in a series.So imagine this city if we don't pull the trigger on the deal, Halladay kills us in teh playoffs, and Amaro is left holding the bag.Image the pressure on Drabek now! Not only does he have the top prospect pressure, but in teh minds of the entire city of Philadelphia and all their media and sports talk hosts, he cost us a World Series, so he better be great. If he doesnt' win 23 games in his first year he is a bust. I know it's ridiculous but you know it's exactly what's going to happen. This kid wont have a chance. And how many of these guys really pan out? Gavin Floyd, Tyler Green, and you could list 20 more "Next Steve Carltons" who were a bust coming up.If they don't make this trade they better find a way to win it all or Amaro is going to be villianized for the rest of his time in Philly. Everyone already gives all the WS credit to Gillick and Manual, as if it's not hard enough coming out from that shadow, screw this up and you're toast.No-brainer, i don't know what they're waiting for.
Saunders, Aybar, Wood and Reckling for Halladay is utter theft. Not sure how the Angels could turn this down, if this permutation was a possibility.According to reports, the Blue Jays asked the Angels for shortstop Erick Aybar, a big league starter -- Jered Weaver or Joe Saunders -- infield prospect Brandon Wood and a top prospect such as double-A pitcher Trevor Reckling or outfielder Peter Bourjos.
I agree 100%.Saunders, Aybar, Wood and Reckling for Halladay is utter theft. Not sure how the Angels could turn this down, if this permutation was a possibility.According to reports, the Blue Jays asked the Angels for shortstop Erick Aybar, a big league starter -- Jered Weaver or Joe Saunders -- infield prospect Brandon Wood and a top prospect such as double-A pitcher Trevor Reckling or outfielder Peter Bourjos.