Has Covid changed your Pro Life or Pro Choice position? (1 Viewer)

[ignatiusjreilly]

I can make a report right now and submit it. 

This is not intended to be passed off as "CDC reporting deaths due to Covid vaccination".

The CDC recommends Covid vaccines for anyone over the age of 12.

To the bolded - yes there could be errors in how Covid numbers are reported.

Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Question for those who say they're "anti-vaccine mandates": Are you opposed to all mandates? Do you oppose schools and the military mandating (non-Covid) vaccines? Countries requiring certain vaccines before traveling? 

In other words, is it the Covid vaccine in particular? Does it matter who's doing the mandating: government, employers, private businesses like cruise lines and entertainment venues requiring customers to be vaccinated in order to enter? And does it matter what the "punishment" is for being unvaccinated? Do you draw a distinction between mandates that could cost you your job vs. those that won't allow you to attend a Saints game at the Superdome?

Not trying to play gotcha, just trying to tease out what exactly is at the root of your objections.

 

[Herb]

My position has not changed. Pro-choice, anti-mandate. However, as a citizen of this nation, I have a responsibility to my fellow countrymen. That is, to do everything in my power to prevent my actions from being detrimental to others. Personal freedom ends where one's actions create negative ramifications to others, especially as it relates to another's health and well-being.

It's perfectly legal to fire a gun, it's illegal to fire it at another person.

I'm fine if you don't want to take the vaccine. I think it's a stupid and ignorant decision, but no skin off my back. Until your choice to not take the vaccine makes me or one of my kids sick. Or kills one of my parents. Then your decision is akin to involuntary manslaughter. This is something we should be doing for each other, mandates be damned. 

 

[Max Power]

My position has not changed. Pro-choice, anti-mandate. However, as a citizen of this nation, I have a responsibility to my fellow countrymen. That is, to do everything in my power to prevent my actions from being detrimental to others. Personal freedom ends where one's actions create negative ramifications to others, especially as it relates to another's health and well-being.

It's perfectly legal to fire a gun, it's illegal to fire it at another person.

I'm fine if you don't want to take the vaccine. I think it's a stupid and ignorant decision, but no skin off my back. Until your choice to not take the vaccine makes me or one of my kids sick. Or kills one of my parents. Then your decision is akin to involuntary manslaughter. This is something we should be doing for each other, mandates be damned. 

How would an unvaccinated person affect you or a family member?

Do you think if you catch covid you automatically got it from an unvaccinated person?

Is the resulting treatment for covid a result of the unvaccinated or will you be making your own decisions?

Are any comorbidities that come with covid a result of unvaccinated people?

Does a vaccinated person who passes along covid that results in a death still fall in the involuntary manslaughter category?

What I'm getting at is there are so many factors in our day to day life. To narrow it down to one variable is over simplifying the issue.

 

[Herb]

How would an unvaccinated person affect you or a family member?

Do you think if you catch covid you automatically got it from an unvaccinated person?

Is the resulting treatment for covid a result of the unvaccinated or will you be making your own decisions?

Are any comorbidities that come with covid a result of unvaccinated people?

Does a vaccinated person who passes along covid that results in a death still fall in the involuntary manslaughter category?

What I'm getting at is there are so many factors in our day to day life. To narrow it down to one variable is over simplifying the issue.

If everyone that could get a vaccine got one, then someone in my orbit got sick or died, I'd know that it was just "one of those unfortunate things." 

But that's not the case. I may never know who transmitted it to me or a loved one, but I damn well know that we'd be in a much better position RIGHT NOW than we are if people had been vaccinated in the spring or early summer. Instead, we have rising case loads, hospitalizations and deaths, the vast majority of which are due to the unvaccinated. I don't care if you deny the jab and die. That's your choice. But if you give it to my mother, who has several comorbidities that she's lived with for decades, and she dies, then you are ignorant and selfish, to put it in the politest possible terms. And your ignorance and selfishness has cost me a parent. To write what I really think about that would get me booted from here for a good long time.

 

[Max Power]

If everyone that could get a vaccine got one, then someone in my orbit got sick or died, I'd know that it was just "one of those unfortunate things." 

But that's not the case. I may never know who transmitted it to me or a loved one, but I damn well know that we'd be in a much better position RIGHT NOW than we are if people had been vaccinated in the spring or early summer. Instead, we have rising case loads, hospitalizations and deaths, the vast majority of which are due to the unvaccinated. I don't care if you deny the jab and die. That's your choice. But if you give it to my mother, who has several comorbidities that she's lived with for decades, and she dies, then you are ignorant and selfish, to put it in the politest possible terms. And your ignorance and selfishness has cost me a parent. To write what I really think about that would get me booted from here for a good long time.

Who are you mad at? The American unvaccinated? You know America is hording vaccines from the rest of the world. People who want and need vaccines cant get them. These people then come to America. America isnt doing it's own part to get the world vaccinated. 

We also allow unvaccinated people in through our southern border without mandate. This is your government actively failing you.

Life is just one big risk matrix. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can make informed decisions and feel good about them.

And maybe you can be the poster to point it out to me, but where is the data that the unvaccinated pass the delta variant easier to the vaccinated than the vaccinated pass it at? 

 

[Herb]

I'm not talking about our government failing us. I expect that. We are failing each other. 

You ask me who I'm mad at? If I'm being completely honest, I'm mad at you. I mean no disrespect.  I'm not mad at you personally.  I'm mad at those among us that refuse to do what evidence suggests is overwhelmingly for the public good, because they have OPINIONS.

I work in health-care, and I'm exhausted. I have 2 kids too young to get the vaccine, both in school, for the moment, anyway. My parents and in-laws are all at high risk. There is a minority segment of society that has the opportunity to help me and those like me; they refuse. You'll please pardon me if I have a strong,  even visceral, reaction to these circumstances. 

 

[AAABatteries]

Who is confirming these death numbers? These are unverified, right?

Hey, it’s actually scarier than you can imagine - 35k people died yesterday AFTER BREATHING AIR.  Explosive stuff and I hope these guys check in to it because it sounds like breathing is really dangerous.

 

[Sabertooth]

I'm not talking about our government failing us. I expect that. We are failing each other. 

You ask me who I'm mad at? If I'm being completely honest, I'm mad at you. I mean no disrespect.  I'm not mad at you personally.  I'm mad at those among us that refuse to do what evidence suggests is overwhelmingly for the public good, because they have OPINIONS.

I work in health-care, and I'm exhausted. I have 2 kids too young to get the vaccine, both in school, for the moment, anyway. My parents and in-laws are all at high risk. There is a minority segment of society that has the opportunity to help me and those like me; they refuse. You'll please pardon me if I have a strong,  even visceral, reaction to these circumstances. 

Yup.  The same people who carry guns around in hopes of gloriously saving lives by stopping the bad guy, won’t take a little jab in the arm because they don’t really want to protect people.  They want to heroically protect people and be hailed as a hero.  If there’s no accolades they will just pass.  
 

That’s the nice thing about binary thought.  If you are wrong, just double down.  My friends mom didn’t die of COVID, she’s had hearts problems for years.  And so on.  

 

[BladeRunner]

Yup.  The same people who carry guns around in hopes of gloriously saving lives by stopping the bad guy, won’t take a little jab in the arm because they don’t really want to protect people.  They want to heroically protect people and be hailed as a hero.  If there’s no accolades they will just pass.  
 

That’s the nice thing about binary thought.  If you are wrong, just double down.  My friends mom didn’t die of COVID, she’s had hearts problems for years.  And so on.  

Kind of like the same people who support "my body, my choice" for abortion are now suddenly saying "YOUR body, my choice" and don't give two ####s that it's your body. 

Well, that was easy to rebut.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Kind of like the same people who support "my body, my choice" for abortion are now suddenly saying "YOUR body, my choice" and don't give two ####s that it's your body. 

Well, that was easy to rebut.

Most people say that around here are pretty quick to follow that up with .....  your choices are yours until it starts effecting the populace.    Abortion and communicable disease are two different things.   

It's also very telling that all these anti-vax people are coming out of the woodwork now.   We don't see heated school board meetings otherwise about having to have vaccinations.   We don't see people throwing temper tantrums about store policies, but :gasp:  a mask is the last straw!  On and on.   It's mostly politics and ignorance at this point.   

I had to witness a grown man yelling at his daughter in our store yesterday because she dared asked him to put his mask back on in our store b/c we've had to put the signs back up stating we require masks.  People have lost their #### about this.  

 

[Sabertooth]

Kind of like the same people who support "my body, my choice" for abortion are now suddenly saying "YOUR body, my choice" and don't give two ####s that it's your body. 

Well, that was easy to rebut.

We can play this game all day.  Why does a childs life start at 6 weeks in Texas but child support doesn’t start until birth.  Also why can’t you take out life insurance on that life?  

 

[Sabertooth]

Most people say that around here are pretty quick to follow that up with .....  your choices are yours until it starts effecting the populace.    Abortion and communicable disease are two different things.   

It's also very telling that all these anti-vax people are coming out of the woodwork now.   We don't see heated school board meetings otherwise about having to have vaccinations.   We don't see people throwing temper tantrums about store policies, but :gasp:  a mask is the last straw!  On and on.   It's mostly politics and ignorance at this point.   

I had to witness a grown man yelling at his daughter in our store yesterday because she dared asked him to put his mask back on in our store b/c we've had to put the signs back up stating we require masks.  People have lost their #### about this.  

They have.  It’s absolutely disgusting.  All they have left is false equivalence.  That’s it.  

 

[CrossEyed2]

Question for those who say they're "anti-vaccine mandates": Are you opposed to all mandates? Do you oppose schools and the military mandating (non-Covid) vaccines? Countries requiring certain vaccines before traveling? 

In other words, is it the Covid vaccine in particular? Does it matter who's doing the mandating: government, employers, private businesses like cruise lines and entertainment venues requiring customers to be vaccinated in order to enter? And does it matter what the "punishment" is for being unvaccinated? Do you draw a distinction between mandates that could cost you your job vs. those that won't allow you to attend a Saints game at the Superdome?

Not trying to play gotcha, just trying to tease out what exactly is at the root of your objections.

This is where it crosses a line for me. Forcing an otherwise healthy person to take a pharmaceutical product prophylactically for a condition that they may never have, or at least become ill from, in order to simply make a living is too far. You can keep me out of sporting events, concerts, even restaurants if my unvaccinated body scares you that much. But making it a condition of keeping one's current job is an overreach, imho.

 

[Sabertooth]

This is where it crosses a line for me. Forcing an otherwise healthy person to take a pharmaceutical product prophylactically for a condition that they may never have, or at least become ill from, in order to simply make a living is too far. You can keep me out of sporting events, concerts, even restaurants if my unvaccinated body scares you that much. But making it a condition of keeping one's current job is an overreach, imho.

Straw man.  They can start a business.  Find another job.  Many options.  All they need to do is pull themselves up by their bootstraps.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Straw man.  They can start a business.  Find another job.  Many options.  All they need to do is pull themselves up by their bootstraps.  

Also, this is where people spend a big portion of their time, and if there is an outbreak it really handcuffs the business.   I am guessing there is a much higher % you are going to get covid rotting in an office 8 hours a day with others vs. spending 3 hours outside at a game with them.  

ETA:  and on your other point - exactly.   A similar circle of people doing the bootstraps thing and claiming how easy it is to move, climb the ladder, whatever, are now posting stuff like this.    Why can't they find a job at a smaller business that doesn't have a mandate?  Why can't they now move somewhere else or get another job?

 

[Max Power]

I'm not talking about our government failing us. I expect that. We are failing each other. 

You ask me who I'm mad at? If I'm being completely honest, I'm mad at you. I mean no disrespect.  I'm not mad at you personally.  I'm mad at those among us that refuse to do what evidence suggests is overwhelmingly for the public good, because they have OPINIONS.

I work in health-care, and I'm exhausted. I have 2 kids too young to get the vaccine, both in school, for the moment, anyway. My parents and in-laws are all at high risk. There is a minority segment of society that has the opportunity to help me and those like me; they refuse. You'll please pardon me if I have a strong,  even visceral, reaction to these circumstances. 

I mean I wear a mask most of the time. I have to at work. I've recovered from covid so I do have natural immunity. My vaccination status is what people seem to care about and I feel it's just a piece to the puzzle. The news and government love to drive the divide. You have a right to be angry at covid, but this is our new reality. 

How outraged are you at the situation at the southern border? The government straight up doesn't care if they are vaccinated or not. 

 

[Herb]

I mean I wear a mask most of the time. I have to at work. I've recovered from covid so I do have natural immunity. My vaccination status is what people seem to care about and I feel it's just a piece to the puzzle. The news and government love to drive the divide. You have a right to be angry at covid, but this is our new reality. 

How outraged are you at the situation at the southern border? The government straight up doesn't care if they are vaccinated or not. 

The southern border is a disaster. One of the many things that disappoint me about the Biden presidency. But again, that's not the point. The people being let in aren't US citizens. They have bigger issues than Covid. I don't.  This pandemic has really F'd up my world; and that's without knowing anyone personally that died or was even hospitalized. My fellow citizens can help me and my family; they can help us all. But they won't. And they'll scream about their rights while trampling mine. That's the issue that makes me bristle.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Most people say that around here are pretty quick to follow that up with .....  your choices are yours until it starts effecting the populace.    Abortion and communicable disease are two different things. 

Literally every single pro-lifer agrees that abortion affects innocent third parties.  That's why we reject "my body, my choice" as a valid argument in that setting.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I'm not talking about our government failing us. I expect that. We are failing each other. 

You ask me who I'm mad at? If I'm being completely honest, I'm mad at you. I mean no disrespect.  I'm not mad at you personally.  I'm mad at those among us that refuse to do what evidence suggests is overwhelmingly for the public good, because they have OPINIONS.

I work in health-care, and I'm exhausted. I have 2 kids too young to get the vaccine, both in school, for the moment, anyway. My parents and in-laws are all at high risk. There is a minority segment of society that has the opportunity to help me and those like me; they refuse. You'll please pardon me if I have a strong,  even visceral, reaction to these circumstances. 

Every single day we choose not to help others. You do too. Literally every day. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Literally every single pro-lifer agrees that abortion affects innocent third parties.  That's why we reject "my body, my choice" as a valid argument in that setting.

Fair.  The circle of people that choice would influence is a lot smaller though.