Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub
Footballguy
He's a Hall of Famer. Could have been better perhaps, but other names, that did nothing in the NFL, like Charles Rogers (among others) come to mind first.
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Has there ever been more wasted talent than... (1 Viewer)
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Don Quixote
Footballguy
There's a certain irony to people who post on a fantasy football message board calling out Hall of Famers for not working hard enough.
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
Anything short of achieving maximum potential involves waste. I think a handful of folks are misunderstanding that concept.and how can you possibly quantify what the maximum would be?Hint: It's impossibleAnything short of achieving maximum potential involves waste. I think a handful of folks are misunderstanding that concept.
Chaka
Footballguy
We can ballpark it.With Randy I think it's fair to say that his maximum potential would lead him to exceed Jerry Rice by every measure.There is some waste but hardly enough for people to talk about him as if he were a slacker.and how can you possibly quantify what the maximum would be?Hint: It's impossible
radballs
Footballguy
I agree here a bit. He's obviously a HOFer. He pissed me off during his stint with the Raiders since they're my team. But, there is a difference between a guy being a "wasted talent" and a guy who "wasted his potential talent". He could have been much better but rare talents like Usain Bolt still break world records coasting in sometimes.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I think it's cool that Colin Cowherd posts here.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Wow, who would have thought that six other players caught their 100th TD pass with their legs.
MarcO
Footballguy
awful comparison. Iverson was one of the most competitive players in the NBA, I don't think I ever saw him take a game off - let alone a play.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Clifford
Footballguy
perfect comparison. Wonder if Moss will be playing in Germany next year.TobiasFunke
Footballguy
This literally might be the single worst sports comparison I've ever heard in my 30+ years on this earth. Iverson was a wildly undersized 2 guard who made up for what he lacked in size for the position with quickness and toughness. He never took a game off or even a play off. His teammates by and large loved him, and so did most of the fans of the teams for which he played.
Moss is a perfect WR physical specimen with a bit of an attitude problem who has been tremendously successful but has been seen to give less than full effort on occasion and often alienates his teammates and fans.
The only ways that they are similar is that each was an above average talent at the others sport, each sported cornrows for a significant period of time, and each played in the finals of their respective sport but never won a title. They are far more different than they are similar.
the_vision
Footballguy
As a football fan he has let me down. All the great things he has done are darkened by his disrespect for the game. The highs and lows in watching him make an amazing play one moment and giving zero effort the next blow my mind. I can't wrap my arms around the thought process that goes into not playing to be my best. Your my favorite WR of all-time Randy but Jerry Rice is the one that I'd tell my son to learn from.
Very few players who ever come to the NFL have the potential to become the greatest player who ever played the game, at any position. Randy Moss had that potential. He demonstrated it.
Then, in a combination of laziness and self-centeredness, he threw it away. Did he achieve great things? Of course; but he could have been the greatest.
Then, in a combination of laziness and self-centeredness, he threw it away. Did he achieve great things? Of course; but he could have been the greatest.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Please tell me this is a joke.He's the second-greatest ever at his position, and the greatest was just named the greatest at any position in the history of the NFL.
I think maybe you don't understand what "threw it away" means. David Terrell threw his talent away. Charles Rogers threw his talent away. Randy Moss is the second-best wide receiver ever to play the game.
You're also totally wrong about what was expected of him when he came into the league. Even the most optimistic projections pre-draft had him in the early first round, but never in the top couple picks, which is where he obviously would have gone despite character questions if he really did come into the NFL having already demonstrated the "potential to become the greatest player who ever played the game."
Here's a pre-draft analysis of him. There's a big difference between "one of the most physically gifted players to come along in several years" and showing "the potential to become the greatest player who ever played the game."
You need to come back to reality.
CrossEyed
Footballguy
What? Isn't it pretty much a given that Moss has been a slacker on many, many occasions?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Heck, he might* not even be the 2nd best of his era, as arguments could easily be made that Owens and Harrison were better.*Note that I say might, so don't flip out.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Huge difference between slacking off on the field by giving less than full effort on certain plays in season in which you're not targeted, and slacking off on your conditioning and preparation in such a way as to make you a less effective wide receiver. The latter is what most of us consider a "waste of talent." To my knowledge Moss has never been accused of the latter to any significant extent. Since there's plenty of people who HAVE wasted their talent by not working hard on conditioning and preparation, it seems kind of stupid to say that Moss is the biggest waste of talent ever, yes?
Also, my semi-educated guess is that the documentation of Moss giving less than 100% effort is partially a product of looking at him under the microscope. My guess is that most players are guilty of taking plays off from time to time when they know the action's not coming their way, it just doesn't make it past Tuesday film sessions.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Even if I grant you that Moss is the third-best receiver of his era- which even you seem to agree is a real stretch considering that he will easily pass those guys in every relevant category by the time he's 35- how does that make him a bigger "waste of talent" than the dozens of guys who were drafted in the first half of the first round to skill positions but never became All-Pros like Moss because they had discipline/work ethic problems?
*Note that I say might, so don't flip out.
Moss has that rare ability (like Curtis Martin) to look like he's not running fast when he really is. It's really pretty hard to explain if you weren't a Martin fan. I do believe he's been a slacker but also that he's been called one when he wasn't.This post here, this concept, is why Moss is so awesome. If for arguments sakes we call all three "just as good" then those two worked their tail off to be that good while Moss cruised to it. Then again, the greatest athletes always make it seem easy. We knew Rice worked super hard off the field, but he didn't always seem it (esp when younger) on the field. It's very hard to gauge effort on the field from these types that make it look easy.
*Note that I say might, so don't flip out.
In the end, and for HOF, production should be all that matters but as far as this thread, it's a difficult situation.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I never said that it did. Reread my first post in this thread (somewhere on Page 1). To reiterate, Moss is not the biggest waste of talent ever...not even close. But there have been seasons where he has completely wasted his talent - '05, '06' and '10 - so at times, yes, he has completely wasted his talent. Besides, not all talent is created equal. Like others have said, Moss could have been the best football player, not just WR, EVER. That is why some think he wasted a bit of his talent. Yes, many, many others have wasted talent on a much greater scale, in the sense that they never become quality NFL players when they had the ability to do so, but that doesn't mean that Moss hasn't wasted some of his talent at times. It is just different.Even if I grant you that Moss is the third-best receiver of his era- which even you seem to agree is a real stretch considering that he will easily pass those guys in every relevant category by the time he's 35- how does that make him a bigger "waste of talent" than the dozens of guys who were drafted in the first half of the first round to skill positions but never became All-Pros like Moss because they had discipline/work ethic problems?
*Note that I say might, so don't flip out.
And, no, I don't think it is a stretch that he is the 3rd best WR of his era. I think it is that close between Moss, Harrison and Owens, that you can put them in any order, and it would be hard to argue against it, regardless of overall numbers, which don't always tell the whole tale.
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I don't understand the Charles Rogers stuff. Maybe many would be shocked to be reminded that Germaine Crowell was the most productive WR per game for a little while there. He wrecked his knee and was done. Why not him then? Rogers kept hurting his shoulder and/or collarbone and coming back only to do it again. Pre2010, I understand Mike Williams but Rogers? Collarbone is a tough NFL injury to overcome. I know it doesn't seem it but...
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Why do people think this? He was slightly ahead of his time, but he was basically a slightly skinner prototype for the Andre Johnson/Calvin Johnson type that can combine a deep threat with an ideal red zone target (to borrow from my earlier post, it's also the David Terrell/Charles Rogers type). I think we mostly agree. I just don't understand where we got this fiction about his vast potential that's unlike anything we've ever seen, like he's 6'9", runs a 3.9 40 yard dash, and can shoot webs from his wrists to secure passes. He's a physical freak, yes, but there's been a lot of those, many of which don't have nearly the career that Moss has had. Sure he could have been a little better, especially in certain seasons. There I'm with you. I just don't understand the idea that his career is even in the Top 1000 as far as wasting talent.I never said that it did. Reread my first post in this thread (somewhere on Page 1). To reiterate, Moss is not the biggest waste of talent ever...not even close. But there have been seasons where he has completely wasted his talent - '05, '06' and '10 - so at times, yes, he has completely wasted his talent. Besides, not all talent is created equal. Like others have said, Moss could have been the best football player, not just WR, EVER. That is why some think he wasted a bit of his talent. Yes, many, many others have wasted talent on a much greater scale, in the sense that they never become quality NFL players when they had the ability to do so, but that doesn't mean that Moss hasn't wasted some of his talent at times. It is just different.Even if I grant you that Moss is the third-best receiver of his era- which even you seem to agree is a real stretch considering that he will easily pass those guys in every relevant category by the time he's 35- how does that make him a bigger "waste of talent" than the dozens of guys who were drafted in the first half of the first round to skill positions but never became All-Pros like Moss because they had discipline/work ethic problems?Heck, he might* not even be the 2nd best of his era, as arguments could easily be made that Owens and Harrison were better.
*Note that I say might, so don't flip out.
And, no, I don't think it is a stretch that he is the 3rd best WR of his era. I think it is that close between Moss, Harrison and Owens, that you can put them in any order, and it would be hard to argue against it, regardless of overall numbers, which don't always tell the whole tale.
ChromeWeasel
Footballguy
Good post.Lol at the couch potatoes on this board. They need to realize that its impossible to do what Moss has done at the NFL level, for as long as he has, without already having a strong work ethic. He's been a top-tier WR in the NFL for 12 years. That's impossible to achieve as a lazy bum. Absolutely impossible.
I don't know what it is about Moss that sets people off, but the jealously is extremely distasteful to me. Some people hate Moss personally, and that's fine. But he's been a once in a lifetime athlete and you cant sustain that level of achievement without more work than anyone in this this thread.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
He's a Hall of Famer, but he had the talent to be the best of all times. Too bad he is too much of a headcase to allow this to be possible.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Anyone actually gonna bother linking to anything reputable suggesting that he is miles ahead of anyone else in terms of raw talent? Or is the plan to say just it over and over without backing it up?I linked to a pre-draft evaluation calling him one of the most talented players of the last several years. I think it's fair to say that he developed into one of the best WRs of his generation, at a minimum. So he met or exceeded those expectations. It's true that we hadn't really seen a WR with his combination of size and speed when he first arrived, but since then we've seen several.
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Curious how you'll reply to this link as my reply http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BardRa00.htm
Chaka
Footballguy
You don't slack yourself to the numbers he has put up.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Dizzy
Footballguy
"Number eighty-four don't stretch... I came out of the womb ready to play!"-MossI would argue that Randy Moss got the most out of his talent.. and purely on talent alone. His greatest gifts - speed and body control - both drop off with age. He never was a guy that could sell a route, get in-and-out of breaks (wrong body type), or get on the ground quickly to scoop up a low ball (also wrong body type)... all of which are required attributes to reliably move the chains. I'm not sure an attitude adjustment or better work ethic would gain him much more than he has accomplished already (and we all agree that his body of work is already quite awesome).
QFT. This thread is ridiculousAnyone actually gonna bother linking to anything reputable suggesting that he is miles ahead of anyone else in terms of raw talent? Or is the plan to say just it over and over without backing it up?
Took this from another post because there were a lot of stats and i thought that these were the most important:* 10 1,000+ yard receiving seasons - 2nd all-time* 64 career 100 yard games - 2nd all-time; most recent November 15, 2009* 153 touchdown receptions - 2nd all-time* 75.9 receiving yards per game - 2nd all-time* 154 total touchdowns scored - 4th all-time* 14,804 receiving yards - 6th all-timeYour original statement which insinuated that there never was more wasted talent is not even an opinion, this can be categorized as a fact. Moss' production is in all time category. It is simply not possible to be the guy who wasted the most talent when you're this high in so many WR statistical categories.
surely we don't truly know the individuals. I know Barden works his tail off and you would think he was Tom Brady the way so many Giants were upset he got hurt. They genuinely root for him and almost all seem to think he's "their boy." He is a rare teammate.Moss has whatever stigma we've been talking about and they seem quite the opposite.
Their body types are pretty similar. Go to youtube if you want to see Barden's oh so soft hands so for the sake of argument, let's say they both have great hands. There's a dramatic difference though and that's Moss' wealth of talent IMO.
How else do you explain this huge difference between two 6-6 guys with soft hands?
Moss has "Talent" and "Stats" BUT he is a known SLACKER hence the wasted talent comments.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Joe Don Looney wasted his talent.
Randy Moss had his Notre Dame scholarship revoked, and then got kicked out of FSU for violating his parole.
The story would have ended there if he were a wasted talent.
Instead he scored at least one TD every time he took the field in college (55 TDs in 28 games).
Then he became one of the greatest WRs to ever play in the NFL.
Pretty silly thread IMO.
Randy Moss had his Notre Dame scholarship revoked, and then got kicked out of FSU for violating his parole.
The story would have ended there if he were a wasted talent.
Instead he scored at least one TD every time he took the field in college (55 TDs in 28 games).
Then he became one of the greatest WRs to ever play in the NFL.
Pretty silly thread IMO.
cstu
Footballguy
The the NFL is scattered with "could have been" like Dupree because of injuries, but I don't consider those guys wasted talents. When a guy stays healthy but doesn't have the drive to take full advantage of his ability - that's a waste.Moss will probably never say it publicly, but someday after he's retired he'll sit around and think of what his career could have been.
Touchdown Syndrome
Footballguy
I liken "waste of talent" to "waste of 10 million bucks".
If someone was given 10 million dollars and "only" turned into 200 million dollars, when if they truly put in max effort and lived up to every ounce of potential they could have made 300 million....no, that wouldn't be one of the biggest wastes ever.
Now if someone was given 10 million dollars and squandered all of it on losing lotto tickets and cotton candy, THAT is a total waste.
The former= Randy Moss.
The latter= Lawrence Phillips, Ryan Leaf.
FTR, Randy is the best college WR I ever saw, and he's certainly equaled or surpassed any expectations I had for his NFL career.
Phillips, on the other hand, was one of the 3 best college RBs I ever saw.....and was a thug headcase who was hopeless in the NFL.
If someone was given 10 million dollars and "only" turned into 200 million dollars, when if they truly put in max effort and lived up to every ounce of potential they could have made 300 million....no, that wouldn't be one of the biggest wastes ever.
Now if someone was given 10 million dollars and squandered all of it on losing lotto tickets and cotton candy, THAT is a total waste.
The former= Randy Moss.
The latter= Lawrence Phillips, Ryan Leaf.
FTR, Randy is the best college WR I ever saw, and he's certainly equaled or surpassed any expectations I had for his NFL career.
Phillips, on the other hand, was one of the 3 best college RBs I ever saw.....and was a thug headcase who was hopeless in the NFL.
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
He's definitely the biggest waste of talent I can think of in 2010 that isn't attributable to injury or overall team misery. He just doesn't care and it shows.
People have a tendency to compare Moss to TO as "team cancers" but I think they're completely different. TO is starved for attention and appreciation and works his behind off to get it from his on-field play. The problem is that that attention/appreciation craving doesn't stop there, and when he also doesn't get what he perceives to be enough of it off of the field he then becomes easily wounded and acts out and becomes a nightmare. His commitment to his craft, however, is simply not disputable even if he's often a pain in the butt as a teammate.
Moss I'm convinced has some sort of mental illness, e.g. a mood disorder, or ADD or maybe some combination. He's extremely withdrawn socially and his energy and attitude and enthusiasm, and even his confidence, wax and wane depending upon circumstances or even seemingly randomly. He's not self-driven nearly as much as TO. His "people skills" are poor like TO's, but in a much different way - Randy doesn't relate very well to other people outside of when he's working with them on the field . . . if he feels like it.
People have a tendency to compare Moss to TO as "team cancers" but I think they're completely different. TO is starved for attention and appreciation and works his behind off to get it from his on-field play. The problem is that that attention/appreciation craving doesn't stop there, and when he also doesn't get what he perceives to be enough of it off of the field he then becomes easily wounded and acts out and becomes a nightmare. His commitment to his craft, however, is simply not disputable even if he's often a pain in the butt as a teammate.
Moss I'm convinced has some sort of mental illness, e.g. a mood disorder, or ADD or maybe some combination. He's extremely withdrawn socially and his energy and attitude and enthusiasm, and even his confidence, wax and wane depending upon circumstances or even seemingly randomly. He's not self-driven nearly as much as TO. His "people skills" are poor like TO's, but in a much different way - Randy doesn't relate very well to other people outside of when he's working with them on the field . . . if he feels like it.
I still can't believe he's gone. Cincy was deep at WR and alot of NFL WRs wouldn't make their team. I have no clue though whats happened since Jax. He was finally getting it and producing and then it just shut off like a faucet.I'm surprised no one tried him at QB or CB or safety or any other position. His athleticism seemed phenomenal to me and there just aren't many tall DBs in the NFL.
jackdubl
Footballguy
Randy Moss was the most physically gifted WR I've seen in my lifetime and on film. If he'd had anywhere close to Jerry Rice work ethic(or even TO, for that matter), he would have been the greatest ever. He is still one of the greats, but he could have been the G.O.A.T.
Tsunami
Footballguy
Jerry Rice had 1200 yards 7 TDs on the Raiders at age 40. Randy Moss is still only 38. NOBODY had anywhere close to Rice's work ethic and endurance. He wasn't just Randy Moss, he was Randy Moss plus Pete Rose. He had the single season records AND the lifetime records. Nobody else even belongs in the conversation. Tony Gonzalez might be a distant second. This old thread is ridiculous.
matuski
Footballguy
2 all time great QBs, and a 4 time pro bowler and NFL MVP QB in Gannon. That Raiders team went to the Super Bowl.
His compiled the greatest bunch of stats for a career the NFL has ever seen... I disagree that makes him the best WR all time in terms of players in their prime. I'd put a handful of guys at their peak above Rice at his. Moss is definitely one of them.
ETA - in other words we have never seen anyone play at Rice's level over a career, but we have certainly seen WR's play at a level Rice never did,
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