by_the_sea_wannabe
:sj:
point per first down reception
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Have We Gone Too Far....With PPR...? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Stinkin Ref
- Start date
If you believe a particular scoring system is " stupid" do not play in it. However, PPR can be configured to bring more balance to each position. Also, what is different from a RB catching a swing pass for no gain and getting a point and a RB being brought in at the end of a long drive and scoring from the one and getting six points. It is much easier to predict the number of passes a RB may catch than how many TD's they may score in prepping for your draft.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I like PPR, generally speaking, but I hate it when a player catches a ton of short passes and gets 1 point for each catch. And since so many teams throw short passes these days, it has diluted the value of a catch to a large degree.
But I like the fact that PPR has made WRs and TEs almost as valuable as RBs, if not as valuable. I like going with:
1 PPR for TEs
.75 PPR for WRs
.5 PPR for RBs
But I like the fact that PPR has made WRs and TEs almost as valuable as RBs, if not as valuable. I like going with:
1 PPR for TEs
.75 PPR for WRs
.5 PPR for RBs
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Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
PPR is the way to go, but I've always thought manipulation the line up restrictions was the better way to even out player value. Mandatory 3 WR's vs 1 mandatory RB etc..
cheatsheetwarroom
Footballguy
I have never really been a fan of PPR. In my view, awarding a point for every reception is sorta like awarding a point for every rushing attempt. In most leagues teams start 3 WRs and 2 RBs. In 2010 Lloyd put up 209 total fantasy points while the top RB Foster put up 325 total fantasy points.
If you multiply the top RB output times 2 and compare this to the top WR output times 3, you'll come up with 650 points for the RB position and 627 points for the WR position. In my opinion that is a perfect balance for these 2 positions and adding points per reception will throw this balance out of whack.
If you multiply the top RB output times 2 and compare this to the top WR output times 3, you'll come up with 650 points for the RB position and 627 points for the WR position. In my opinion that is a perfect balance for these 2 positions and adding points per reception will throw this balance out of whack.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
I've been adding a .2 to Carries for the past 4 yrs, got 14 RBs in the top 60 / 12 Wrs
Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub
Footballguy
Don't mind PPR (prefer PPR-1st down - half pt catch/half pt 1st down -- or PPR-by position)
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Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Clearly we should wait til year-end, then create retroactive scoring systems that perfectly balance QB vs RB vs WR vs TE
Lash
Footballguy
we added PPR to out dynasty with one twist
we hated to see that flat pattern that gained 1 yard and the RB get the full point
so we said we are going PPR but you only get points for every 3 receptions
your top pass catching RBs get the 3+ usually
your top TEs can get 6+
your top WR can get 6+ (or even 9+)
eventually we changed to .33ppr for RB, .66 PPR for WR, and 1ppr for TE
so for every 3 catches you get 1pt for RB, 2pt for WR, and 3pt for TE
our scoring has all 4 positions well represented in the top20
we hated to see that flat pattern that gained 1 yard and the RB get the full point
so we said we are going PPR but you only get points for every 3 receptions
your top pass catching RBs get the 3+ usually
your top TEs can get 6+
your top WR can get 6+ (or even 9+)
eventually we changed to .33ppr for RB, .66 PPR for WR, and 1ppr for TE
so for every 3 catches you get 1pt for RB, 2pt for WR, and 3pt for TE
our scoring has all 4 positions well represented in the top20
Dez
Footballguy
I didn't know taking a handoff was just as easy as catching a pass. Elite RB's tend to get 20-30 rushing attempts, you don't see WR's catching 20-30 balls.
DropKick
Footballguy
Acknowledge the sarcasm here but I never understood the need to balance the positions. I don't care that QBs score more than RBs who score more than kickers... We each have the same line-up requirements so who cares about relative scoring?
DropKick
Footballguy
Hoss is right. You DID see drafts dominated by early RB selections in the heyday of "Stud RB theory". The mindset was so prevalent that it became a self fulfilling prophecy. People would draft a 3rd and even a 4th RB before other positions because of the fear of injury crippling their season.This is always the retort of the ppr lovers, but I'm sure most of you realize that the turnover at the RB position is too great for that to actually be a beneficial strategy. A top RB may be quite valuable in non-ppr but you draft a running back knowing that their stats could fall off a cliff this year (and that injury risk is higher), but if you spend your early picks on dependable players at other positions then you can swing for the fences at RB later in the draft.Aside from that, it just isn't true. You never see people draft all RB with their first 3-4 picks in 2RB leagues. But I guess that time has just warped the perception of non-ppr leagues. But it's whatever... there are still plenty of non-ppr leagues and I'm down to play a ppr league or a 2QB league from time to time because it is fun to mix it up.Beats the hell out of drafting RB with the first 3 or 4 picksHow boring is that?
T with T
Footballguy
grateful zed
Footballguy
PPR is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
ddarroch4
Footballguy
I think this is the way leagues should go. It's not only a great compromise for ppr vs. non ppr but it also brings 1st downs into the mix. 1st downs are obviously extremely important but ignored in fantasy.
ChromeWeasel
Footballguy
That sounds like a good scoring system. We do 1/2 point per reception and it works well too. A full point per reception would be too high so you've got to dial it back one way or another.'ddarroch4 said:
T with T
Footballguy
agreed... standard scoring sucks
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
never played in a a PPFDR league, but I guess I am wondering about the cons of that as well....gonna play devil's advocate...so if it's the 1st quarter and it is 2nd and 1 and I catch a 2 yard pass I get a point for making the catch....but if it's the 4th quarter (10 seconds left) and its 2nd and 25 and I catch a 24 yard pass that puts us in FG range I get nothing for making the catch....hmmmmmm......
CalBear
Footballguy
Jeeze, now you're going to try to insist that fantasy scoring tie directly into game impact? If my team is up by 1 with 1:59 left and I get a yard on fourth and one I get nothing for it, but if we're down by 30 and I get a garbage-time TD I get 6 points. That's the way it goes.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
settle down killer....as indicated I was just playing devil's advocate for discussion....bringing up a possible negative of the PPFDR......just saying as with anything it ain't the end all be all....there really isn't such a thing....there are some downsides...a guy could go 10 for 99 but be outscored by a guy who goes 10 for 20....and the point of moving towards PPFDR was in fact to try and have "fantasy scoring tie directly into game impact"....I was obviously giving an extreme example, but not not sure that PPFDR accomplishes that much better....I haven't read the article, just an intial thought....
Dexter Manley
Footballguy
Not a fan of ppr, although I don't hate it or anything. Only in 1 league that uses it, which is a td heavy league.
If you're worried about teams who draft rb heavy being at an advantage, I suggest adopting a scoring system with the following starting requirements for skill players which is what we use in a couple leagues (16 and 12 teamers):
Start QB, 2 RB, 3 WR/TE
With this format, anyone who drafts more than 2 rb's in the first 5 rounds is going to be behind the 8ball at other starting positions.
Also, I don't understand people complaining about "the first round being all rb's." History has showed us that usually about half of these rb's taken in the 1st are going to be "busts" for how high they're selected.
If you're worried about teams who draft rb heavy being at an advantage, I suggest adopting a scoring system with the following starting requirements for skill players which is what we use in a couple leagues (16 and 12 teamers):
Start QB, 2 RB, 3 WR/TE
With this format, anyone who drafts more than 2 rb's in the first 5 rounds is going to be behind the 8ball at other starting positions.
Also, I don't understand people complaining about "the first round being all rb's." History has showed us that usually about half of these rb's taken in the 1st are going to be "busts" for how high they're selected.
CalBear
Footballguy
As are half of the WRs taken early.
spodog
Footballguy
This
Shutout
Footballguy
Really just comes down to doing the work to get a really good balance and keep with the idea of evening out all the positions. In the main leagues I play in we have different PPR values awarded for RBs, WRs, and TEs (and none are the same). The result after a few seasons of work is that we have a very balanced league where, AS THEY SHOULD, drafts and trade values of players are similar enough to where we always see a wide variety in how teams are formed and which players are taken where.For people who cut their FF teeth during the era of stud RBS, I usually find that the people that can't/don't want to let it go are the guys that drafted the Marshall Faulks, Emmitt Smiths, Terell Davis' of the world and just kicked it into auto pilot until the playoffs. The people that embraced PPR were the ones that wanted something more that the fact that they drafted 8 of 12 to have a bigger say in how sucessfult heir team was. For that reason, I believe completely that you do in fact add a great deal of strategy by adding a GOOD PPR system. So maybe those who don't think PPR adds strategy just had a poor scoring system. But when its done right, its much more competitive. Its easier to draft a perennial stud RB with no PPR and have a great season than it is when you have to build a complete team of various positions that, AS A GROUP, can be a very good team. In the end, I think it makes a lot of sense for fantasy teams to reflect reality to a degree. 15 years ago, you might draft RBs in your first 3-4 picks and try to win attrition wars and if you were at the top of the draft, you had a huge leg up. Now you strategize over building a complete team and you regain the ability to compete when you dont have a top 5 RB by making up the points with your dominant WR or TE. makes sense, right? Shouldn't your Matt Forte and Antonio Gates reflect as good an opportunity as the guy with Adrian Peterson and Dustin Keller?'spodog said:
Instinctive
Footballguy
This is simply false. I'll post some data on it later, but had to let you know ahead of time with that post. Top ranked WRs are way more consistently at the top than top RBs are.
massraider
Footballguy
Love PPR, makes helpful jack-of-all trade players reasonable starters, and I feel that it has been part of the change that is better for fantasy football. You can't just ride two studs and a bunch of duds to the championship, and I feel you used to be able to do that.
With PPR, you can build a team any way you want.
Is it silly that a player gets a point for a -1 yard catch? Yes. However, the -1 yard catch is not the epidemic that you might think by listening to the anti-PPR crowd. It is as fair as a RB that racked up 60 yards from scrimmage on an 80 yard drive getting the same number of points as a FB that falls into the endzone for a 1 yard TD.
If the best argument against PPR is the -1 year catch, then I am not even willing to listen to the debate.
With PPR, you can build a team any way you want.
Is it silly that a player gets a point for a -1 yard catch? Yes. However, the -1 yard catch is not the epidemic that you might think by listening to the anti-PPR crowd. It is as fair as a RB that racked up 60 yards from scrimmage on an 80 yard drive getting the same number of points as a FB that falls into the endzone for a 1 yard TD.
If the best argument against PPR is the -1 year catch, then I am not even willing to listen to the debate.
Dave Larkin
Moderator
Not a chance. PPR scoring is just another facet of fantasy football.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Ok the PPFDR sounds interesting from what I'm reading and I can see both sides of the coin with it. My only question at this point, and maybe people who are familiar with it can chime in, is that how do you factor this in to your draft and season long preparation? See with PPR I know (or have a relatively good idea) who is going to catch a lot of passes. But the PPFDR seems kind of random and a lot more unpredictable then a PPR. Mind you, I haven't looked for the stats regarding this or even if such a stats is available for my draft software but it would be curious to see how that aspect compares to a PPR. It's not so much the balance of WR's that are scoring high it's who it is that's a bigger question to me.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I don't have any specific stats to cite for you but I believe there is a strong correlation between PPR and PPFDR performance. The scoring lists may vary a little but for the most part PPFDR just dampens the PPR scoring a little.Perhaps the biggest dropoff would be for RBs who catch a lot of outlet passes that don't go for first downs. We need Jeff P to link us to his old article, which did a real good job looking at all these numbers.
Found it.
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Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
I try and re-touch this article each year, and I'm consistently amazed and how repeatable the numbers are.The title by the way is "Points Per Deception"
Anonymous Internet User
Footballguy
I think a better way of doing this is using a bonus system for yardage on first down plays. For example, any play that results in a first down has its yardage scoring multiplied by some factor that could be chosen to get the scoring between positions where you want it. Since most RB first downs are of the short yardage variety, they get only a modest boost to scoring. WR first down yardages are on average ~3x longer than RB first down plays, thus their bonus would be higher. This also rewards big plays that move down the field in a meaningful manner rather than providing bonus points at arbitrary yardage totals.
Chaka
Footballguy
If anything we still put too much value on RBs.
Judging from average NFL salaries RB is one of the least valuable positions in real football so I think it's appropriate that is reflected in fantasy football.
Quarterback is the position that is criminally undervalued in fantasy football.
Judging from average NFL salaries RB is one of the least valuable positions in real football so I think it's appropriate that is reflected in fantasy football.
Quarterback is the position that is criminally undervalued in fantasy football.
Manster
Footballguy
i like this as well. but, i play in 3 leagues. ppr, .5 ppr, and no ppr. i like them all for different reasons.to me, scoring format is secondary to who you have in your league. different scoring just means different strategy. adjust accordingly.
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
The fact that this is even a topic says that there is room for improvement for PPR.
My attempt at doing just that AND basing it on a goal of football (getting a first down) at least ties "fantasy" to "reality".
The results do boost all 3 positions (since you are adding points to all) but it is more to WR and TE than RB.
The 0.5 RB, 1 WR and 1.5 TE does similar things, but it is still arbitrary and doesn't eliminate the worthless 1-yard or even -1-yard catch that gets 0.5-1.5 points.
What I'm saying is that PPFDR attempts to justify more "value" to a player by giving points towards accomplishing something besides just gaining yards, which is picking up a first down.
Here's the link:
Points Per Deception
Table 1 is one of my favorites, which is the % of catches for each position that gained a first down. It's amazingly repeatable, year after year:
2003-2010 PPFDR %
RB: 34-37%
TE: 58-64%
WR: 67-71%
Table 11 is pretty good too, which is the % of points added by either PPR or PPFDR to each position (for fantasy starters):
2003-2010 % Points added, PPR and PPFDR
RB: 17-20% 6-7%
TE: 51-60% 32-37%
WR: 49-60% 33-38%
Again, no system is perfect - but I tend to like PPFDR > PPR for more "fantasy realism", to coin an oxymoron.
My attempt at doing just that AND basing it on a goal of football (getting a first down) at least ties "fantasy" to "reality".
The results do boost all 3 positions (since you are adding points to all) but it is more to WR and TE than RB.
The 0.5 RB, 1 WR and 1.5 TE does similar things, but it is still arbitrary and doesn't eliminate the worthless 1-yard or even -1-yard catch that gets 0.5-1.5 points.
What I'm saying is that PPFDR attempts to justify more "value" to a player by giving points towards accomplishing something besides just gaining yards, which is picking up a first down.
Here's the link:
Points Per Deception
Table 1 is one of my favorites, which is the % of catches for each position that gained a first down. It's amazingly repeatable, year after year:
2003-2010 PPFDR %
RB: 34-37%
TE: 58-64%
WR: 67-71%
Table 11 is pretty good too, which is the % of points added by either PPR or PPFDR to each position (for fantasy starters):
2003-2010 % Points added, PPR and PPFDR
RB: 17-20% 6-7%
TE: 51-60% 32-37%
WR: 49-60% 33-38%
Again, no system is perfect - but I tend to like PPFDR > PPR for more "fantasy realism", to coin an oxymoron.
Rick James
Footballguy
Adding a PPR component isn't the only way to "balance out" the draft. A regular 12-team league that starts 2RB/3WR will act just about the same as a 2RB/2WR PPR league.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Anything but PPR is stone age. Might as well have your league scored on paper and mailed to you. People that don't like PPR are not skilled enough to draft anything but RB, RB, RB. So it really just comes down to do you want to play in an advanced league or easy league. For you little kiddies.....do you want to play on All Madden mode or Amateur mode.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Value has little to do with point assignments and a lot to do with starting lineup requirements. Join a Start 2 QB league and their value will go way up.Leagues that allow teams to start 3 RB ridiculous inflate their value. Leagues that start 2RB and 2WR inflate RB value. Leagues that start 2RB and 3WR do to a point too. There's just more WR to go around than RB.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
That's not true at all. I play in a PPR that starts 2RB and 2WR. RB have more value in that league because I can find plenty of WR in the middle of the draft. I play in a non-PPR league that starts 1RB, 3WR, and a flex and WR carry a lot more value in that league.
Chaka
Footballguy
I know. The word you are looking for is scarcity. More scarcity = higher value but that isn't the point of this thread. The OP was an argument in favor of increasing the value of RBs in fantasy football.But the facts demonstrate that the second least valuable offensive player in real football (the RB) is horribly overvalued in fantasy football. No need to make changes that increase the value of the most fungible player on offense.
Dentist
***Official FBG Dentist***
This.we require 1 RB, and you can flex your way into a 2nd RB (and 2/3rds of teams do)In one of the two league we have 1 ppr (fine)but in the other we have 0 ppr for RB, 0.5 ppr for WR, 1 ppr for TEreally levels out the positions so that good players are what makes the difference, not stud RB
The_Wolfman
Footballguy
Maybe I'm just old school, but I've always preferred the non-ppr method of scoring. I like it's simplicity, one yard equals one point for RB and WR. I've always thought fantasy performance should mirror real life performance. There's no way you can argue that a catch for one yard is more valuable than a run for 10 yards (with the possible exception of that 1 yard catch earning you a first down) but in general the 10 yard run is going to be a lot more helpful.
CalBear
Footballguy
But a run for 10 yards is more valuable than a pass for 15 yards?
roadkill1292
Footballguy
This is creative and unconventional thinking here.
cstruk
Footballguy
I agree - if someone says that a 1 yard reception should not count more than a 1 yard run well than how do you justify that a 10 yard run is worth more than a 15 yard pass?QBs and scoring Defenses are severely underweighted in almost all formats. If you want to mimic real football, early round fantasy picks should be dominated by QBs and Team Defenses.In my favorite scoring league, we do rate defenses heavily. This year we had two defenses picked within the first 12 picks which was too few imho. Last year, we had 8 QBs and 6 defenses picked with the first 20 picks with only 5 rbs and 1 wr taken.
FUBAR
Footballguy
If the goal is to mimic real football as the game is played then ppr is a bad idea. If the goal is to weigh positional values in a way that mimic perceived values, ppr and 2 qb does that better.
I'd also say idp is more "realistic" there is simply no way you can convince me that jay cutler or Tim hightower are worth more than the steelers defense.
I'd also say idp is more "realistic" there is simply no way you can convince me that jay cutler or Tim hightower are worth more than the steelers defense.
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NinerK
Footballguy
Point Per First Down Reception.
