HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (1 Viewer)

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I think he's finished Winds of Winter and it will be released this year. Just a hunch that the rumor mill adds up this time:

• The Words of Wisdom post on his blog a couple months ago (which was close to enough by itself IMO)
• He's attending WorldCon in August
• Now the party rumors -- which ties in right timing-wise

IN!!

 

[Nick Vermeil]

I think he's finished Winds of Winter and it will be released this year. Just a hunch that the rumor mill adds up this time:

• The Words of Wisdom post on his blog a couple months ago (which was close to enough by itself IMO)
• He's attending WorldCon in August
• Now the party rumors -- which ties in right timing-wise

IN!!

Party rumors? Isn’t it more likely the party is just a season 2 House of Dragons party?

 

[WVU Alum]

I think he's finished Winds of Winter and it will be released this year. Just a hunch that the rumor mill adds up this time:

• The Words of Wisdom post on his blog a couple months ago (which was close to enough by itself IMO)
• He's attending WorldCon in August
• Now the party rumors -- which ties in right timing-wise

IN!!

Party rumors? Isn’t it more likely the party is just a season 2 House of Dragons party?

Yep. I would be surprised if the next book ever comes out.

 

[Barry2]

years ago when I used to read his blog he said he would email his publisher then blog that he was finished the second he was finished.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I don't know that I care anymore, unfortunately.

 

[Moonlight]

I don't know that I care anymore, unfortunately.

Still have no desire to rewatch the tv show. Those hacks took a riveting experience and turned into a hallmark channel production.
If the book is coming out though will definitely buy and read. But it feels like Lucy pulling the football away just as Charlie Brown goes to kick it again.

 

[the moops]

I don't know that I care anymore, unfortunately.

Still have no desire to rewatch the tv show. Those hacks took a riveting experience and turned into a hallmark channel production.
If the book is coming out though will definitely buy and read. But it feels like Lucy pulling the football away just as Charlie Brown goes to kick it again.

I am about ready to rewatch the tv series. Top 5 series of all time in my book

 

[TennesseeJed]

I don't know that I care anymore, unfortunately.

Still have no desire to rewatch the tv show. Those hacks took a riveting experience and turned into a hallmark channel production.
If the book is coming out though will definitely buy and read. But it feels like Lucy pulling the football away just as Charlie Brown goes to kick it again.

I am about ready to rewatch the tv series. Top 5 series of all time in my book

1st 5 seasons…

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

1st 5 seasons…

First four seasons are my #1. 5-7 felt like I'd jumped on the express bus.

The people hoping for a major rewrite for Dany are going to be disappointed though, IMO. Unlike the TV show, he's laid the groundwork in the books for her to lose her marbles. It'll be done 100x better, and earned, but I think that arc for her is still likely.

 

[TennesseeJed]

1st 5 seasons…

First four seasons are my #1. 5-7 felt like I'd jumped on the express bus.

The people hoping for a major rewrite for Dany are going to be disappointed though, IMO. Unlike the TV show, he's laid the groundwork in the books for her to lose her marbles. It'll be done 100x better, and earned, but I think that arc for her is still likely.

Yeah, throughout the books the Targaryens are considered a coin flip. We were misled early when we assumed the brother was the “mad” Targaryen. But, in almost every instance when Daenerys had a choice between mercy and violence - she chose violence. We rooted for it because we liked Daenerys and we thought she had good intentions. But, she was always destined to burn it all down.

 

[thecatch]

1st 5 seasons…

First four seasons are my #1. 5-7 felt like I'd jumped on the express bus.

The people hoping for a major rewrite for Dany are going to be disappointed though, IMO. Unlike the TV show, he's laid the groundwork in the books for her to lose her marbles. It'll be done 100x better, and earned, but I think that arc for her is still likely.

Yeah, I think the problem was always the fast forwarding of the story more so than where Dany ended up.

 

[Capella]

1st 5 seasons…

First four seasons are my #1. 5-7 felt like I'd jumped on the express bus.

The people hoping for a major rewrite for Dany are going to be disappointed though, IMO. Unlike the TV show, he's laid the groundwork in the books for her to lose her marbles. It'll be done 100x better, and earned, but I think that arc for her is still likely.

Yeah, I think the problem was always the fast forwarding of the story more so than where Dany ended up.

I don’t understand why hbo was in a hurry to end their cash cow. If those two guys wanted to leave the show there were plenty of other people who could direct and show run.

 

[Grahamburn]

1st 5 seasons…

First four seasons are my #1. 5-7 felt like I'd jumped on the express bus.

The people hoping for a major rewrite for Dany are going to be disappointed though, IMO. Unlike the TV show, he's laid the groundwork in the books for her to lose her marbles. It'll be done 100x better, and earned, but I think that arc for her is still likely.

Yeah, throughout the books the Targaryens are considered a coin flip. We were misled early when we assumed the brother was the “mad” Targaryen. But, in almost every instance when Daenerys had a choice between mercy and violence - she chose violence. We rooted for it because we liked Daenerys and we thought she had good intentions. But, she was always destined to burn it all down.

They foreshadowed Dany going straight ash in season 2 with the warlocks.

It was always there and was always going to happen.

 

[TennesseeJed]

1st 5 seasons…

First four seasons are my #1. 5-7 felt like I'd jumped on the express bus.

The people hoping for a major rewrite for Dany are going to be disappointed though, IMO. Unlike the TV show, he's laid the groundwork in the books for her to lose her marbles. It'll be done 100x better, and earned, but I think that arc for her is still likely.

Yeah, throughout the books the Targaryens are considered a coin flip. We were misled early when we assumed the brother was the “mad” Targaryen. But, in almost every instance when Daenerys had a choice between mercy and violence - she chose violence. We rooted for it because we liked Daenerys and we thought she had good intentions. But, she was always destined to burn it all down.

They foreshadowed Dany going straight ash in season 2 with the warlocks.

It was always there and was always going to happen.

Season 1 - tying medicine woman to Drago's funeral pyre
Season 2 - warlock in House of the Undying
Season 3 - Slaver who sold her the Unsullied
Season 4 - Retaliates against Slave Masters by nailing them to the posts on the road (In place of salves)
Season 5 - Meereen nobleman fed to Dragons
Season 6 - Burned Dothraki Kahls; When Slavers were negotiating for her surrender - she had 2 of 3 killed while Drogon laid waste to the fleet
Season 7 - Burned Randall and Dickon Tarley for failing to bend the knee
Season 8 - Burned Varys for treason.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

1st 5 seasons…

First four seasons are my #1. 5-7 felt like I'd jumped on the express bus.

The people hoping for a major rewrite for Dany are going to be disappointed though, IMO. Unlike the TV show, he's laid the groundwork in the books for her to lose her marbles. It'll be done 100x better, and earned, but I think that arc for her is still likely.

Yeah, throughout the books the Targaryens are considered a coin flip. We were misled early when we assumed the brother was the “mad” Targaryen. But, in almost every instance when Daenerys had a choice between mercy and violence - she chose violence. We rooted for it because we liked Daenerys and we thought she had good intentions. But, she was always destined to burn it all down.

They foreshadowed Dany going straight ash in season 2 with the warlocks.

It was always there and was always going to happen.

Season 1 - tying medicine woman to Drago's funeral pyre
Season 2 - warlock in House of the Undying
Season 3 - Slaver who sold her the Unsullied
Season 4 - Retaliates against Slave Masters by nailing them to the posts on the road (In place of salves)
Season 5 - Meereen nobleman fed to Dragons
Season 6 - Burned Dothraki Kahls; When Slavers were negotiating for her surrender - she had 2 of 3 killed while Drogon laid waste to the fleet
Season 7 - Burned Randall and Dickon Tarley for failing to bend the knee
Season 8 - Burned Varys for treason.

And we're off

 

[Grahamburn]

1st 5 seasons…

First four seasons are my #1. 5-7 felt like I'd jumped on the express bus.

The people hoping for a major rewrite for Dany are going to be disappointed though, IMO. Unlike the TV show, he's laid the groundwork in the books for her to lose her marbles. It'll be done 100x better, and earned, but I think that arc for her is still likely.

Yeah, throughout the books the Targaryens are considered a coin flip. We were misled early when we assumed the brother was the “mad” Targaryen. But, in almost every instance when Daenerys had a choice between mercy and violence - she chose violence. We rooted for it because we liked Daenerys and we thought she had good intentions. But, she was always destined to burn it all down.

They foreshadowed Dany going straight ash in season 2 with the warlocks.

It was always there and was always going to happen.

Season 1 - tying medicine woman to Drago's funeral pyre
Season 2 - warlock in House of the Undying
Season 3 - Slaver who sold her the Unsullied
Season 4 - Retaliates against Slave Masters by nailing them to the posts on the road (In place of salves)
Season 5 - Meereen nobleman fed to Dragons
Season 6 - Burned Dothraki Kahls; When Slavers were negotiating for her surrender - she had 2 of 3 killed while Drogon laid waste to the fleet
Season 7 - Burned Randall and Dickon Tarley for failing to bend the knee
Season 8 - Burned Varys for treason.

I’m referring to the visions she had of ash covering the throne room, but yeah, all this.

They hit us over the head with it the entire series. Nobody should have been surprised when she torched everyone.

 

[KarmaPolice]

1st 5 seasons…

First four seasons are my #1. 5-7 felt like I'd jumped on the express bus.

The people hoping for a major rewrite for Dany are going to be disappointed though, IMO. Unlike the TV show, he's laid the groundwork in the books for her to lose her marbles. It'll be done 100x better, and earned, but I think that arc for her is still likely.

Yeah, throughout the books the Targaryens are considered a coin flip. We were misled early when we assumed the brother was the “mad” Targaryen. But, in almost every instance when Daenerys had a choice between mercy and violence - she chose violence. We rooted for it because we liked Daenerys and we thought she had good intentions. But, she was always destined to burn it all down.

They foreshadowed Dany going straight ash in season 2 with the warlocks.

It was always there and was always going to happen.

Season 1 - tying medicine woman to Drago's funeral pyre
Season 2 - warlock in House of the Undying
Season 3 - Slaver who sold her the Unsullied
Season 4 - Retaliates against Slave Masters by nailing them to the posts on the road (In place of salves)
Season 5 - Meereen nobleman fed to Dragons
Season 6 - Burned Dothraki Kahls; When Slavers were negotiating for her surrender - she had 2 of 3 killed while Drogon laid waste to the fleet
Season 7 - Burned Randall and Dickon Tarley for failing to bend the knee
Season 8 - Burned Varys for treason.

I’m referring to the visions she had of ash covering the throne room, but yeah, all this.

They hit us over the head with it the entire series. Nobody should have been surprised when she torched everyone.

I think you two are over simplifying people's complaints about the last few seasons. At least my impression reading the posts as the show wrapped was different. It wasn't just what she did, it was that the writing was bad so it felt clunky and unearned. It was also just the huge cherry on top of what similar people felt was a bit of a subpar poorly written few seasons.

That said, I also think people put too much blame on D & D, because as a lover of the books, books 4 and 5 were a let down for similar reasons. Book 3 was awesome and one of my favorite reading experiences I've had. But the downfall of Book 3 and the show post Season 4 for me is that if my favorite characters weren't dead they were now split up and in less interesting situations. What I meant above about the dialogue and scheming is that many of the (IMO) best and smartest characters got killed or separated, and they weren't replaced with anything on the same level. That part is not on D&D.

For example - for me, Tywin is about as great as an antagonist gets for series like this. Martin and the show also did a great job getting to see things his way sometimes which added to the richness of the story. As the story goes on we get way less of that and more of one note villains like Joffrey then Reek. On top of that, some of my favorites living were no longer interacting with each other or got paired with people I barely cared about. Best example here is Tyrion. One of my favorite characters and in both versions I disliked where he was and who he was with post-murder. But here we are talking going from a 10/10 for a book or series to 7.5 or so. The lower rating isn't because the quality of the books or writing fell off, more that I wasn't as interested or engaged, especially broken up the way it was. I still really liked the last couple books, and now you can avoid some of the annoyance of not having some characters at all in book 4 and read them both at the same time and go back and forth in the timeline.

IMO the show fell off way more than that. It went from 10/10, must see TV to average overall with a wide range of awesome to laughably bad. Also, like I pointed out above, most of the awesome comes in the form of them hiring some good directors to do the epic kick *** battle episodes. Much of the stuff I found laughably bad is on the writing, so it makes me wonder why they could find the same level of talent in writers for the series and continued to do it mostly themselves. That's on them, but that's also why people blame them for the last few seasons and it's writing.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Also keep in mind that I think just about every non sitcom style show that goes for more than 5 seasons drops off and becomes a shell of itself. Most of the shows I would consider great overall are 5 seasons or less. The only exception that comes to mind right away is Mad Men.

 

[Gr00vus]

If you don't think the whole expedition beyond the wall to capture one zombie to bring back to Cersie thing was laughably horrible writing, I don't know what to tell you. Whoever put that whole thing together shouldn't be allowed to participate in a creative endeavor ever again. I think that was the absolute low point. I'm sure Martin's outline bullet that led to that was just something like, "the whitewalkers kill one of the dragons and convert it into an undead dragon they use to destroy the wall." From there the writers concocted the masterpiece we got to chortle through.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

If you don't think the whole expedition beyond the wall to capture one zombie to bring back to Cersie thing was laughably horrible writing, I don't know what to tell you. Whoever put that whole thing together shouldn't be allowed to participate in a creative endeavor ever again. I think that was the absolute low point. I'm sure Martin's outline bullet that led to that was just something like, "the whitewalkers kill one of the dragons and convert it into an undead dragon they use to destroy the wall." From there the writers concocted the masterpiece we got to chortle through.

Sure, but the walk there was fun. The world needs more Tormund.

Game of Thrones S7E6 - Beyond The Wall | Tormund and The Hound talking about Brienne | Beric and Jon

Game of Thrones Season 7 Episode 6 - Beyond The Wall. Tormund telling The Hound how he wants to makes babies with Brienne and Beric talk to Jon about the rea...

www.youtube.com

 

[Frostillicus]

I rewatched the entire season with my wife recently and we both agreed it ended much better than we remembered. I think everyone wanted perfection and were disappointed. Not saying they nailed it, they didn't, but really it's not nearly as bad as some portray it to be. It's worse than the first 5 seasons without question, but compared to everything else on tv it holds up much better.

Also I will ***** about not having the next book nonstop but if it ever has a release date I will preorder and re-read the last couple books and read that new one very, very quckly.

 

[Grahamburn]

If you don't think the whole expedition beyond the wall to capture one zombie to bring back to Cersie thing was laughably horrible writing, I don't know what to tell you. Whoever put that whole thing together shouldn't be allowed to participate in a creative endeavor ever again. I think that was the absolute low point. I'm sure Martin's outline bullet that led to that was just something like, "the whitewalkers kill one of the dragons and convert it into an undead dragon they use to destroy the wall." From there the writers concocted the masterpiece we got to chortle through.

The suspension of disbelief part of that is what became difficult in that episode. But, moreso how quickly they made it happen.

Unbelievable things get accomplished in this world just by “sending a raven.” How difficult is it to believe Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton can all communicate with eachother via bird mail and hatch a completely perfect plot to murder a king where every single person executes flawlessly to accomplish their goals?

Not very believable if you think about it. But, in this world it was more believable to the viewer because it was laid out over several episodes.

The lead up to the expedition episode even had them all talking about how stupid it was to try to go get this thing.

Then all in one episode they walk a while and talk, fight a dead polar bear, find a small group of wights, manage to kidnap just one, get swarmed by the dead, send Gendry running for help, he sends a raven, Dany flies the dragon to save the day, lose a dragon, then Jon gets saved by Benjen.

I’ll agree that’s a lot to try to pack into one episode and could be deemed laughable, but it was still fun tv. Is that the writer’s fault?

BenJen was already out there from the original story. They needed the dragons out there for the dead army advancing to make sense moving the story forward.

I believe all those things were intended by Martin, but the show runners were hamstrung by a lack of time. That series of events would have been more believable to the viewer had it unfolded over several episodes. In seasons 1-5 or so the polar bear fight ends an episode. Them capturing the wight and sending Gendry running as the full army shows up ends an episode. Then Dany arriving and the full battle ends an episode. But, deadlines.

Had Martin already laid that out for everyone over 200 pages it wouldn’t have been so universally panned.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

If you don't think the whole expedition beyond the wall to capture one zombie to bring back to Cersie thing was laughably horrible writing, I don't know what to tell you. Whoever put that whole thing together shouldn't be allowed to participate in a creative endeavor ever again. I think that was the absolute low point. I'm sure Martin's outline bullet that led to that was just something like, "the whitewalkers kill one of the dragons and convert it into an undead dragon they use to destroy the wall." From there the writers concocted the masterpiece we got to chortle through.

The suspension of disbelief part of that is what became difficult in that episode. But, moreso how quickly they made it happen.

Unbelievable things get accomplished in this world just by “sending a raven.” How difficult is it to believe Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton can all communicate with eachother via bird mail and hatch a completely perfect plot to murder a king where every single person executes flawlessly to accomplish their goals?

Not very believable if you think about it. But, in this world it was more believable to the viewer because it was laid out over several episodes.

The lead up to the expedition episode even had them all talking about how stupid it was to try to go get this thing.

Then all in one episode they walk a while and talk, fight a dead polar bear, find a small group of wights, manage to kidnap just one, get swarmed by the dead, send Gendry running for help, he sends a raven, Dany flies the dragon to save the day, lose a dragon, then Jon gets saved by Benjen.

I’ll agree that’s a lot to try to pack into one episode and could be deemed laughable, but it was still fun tv. Is that the writer’s fault?

BenJen was already out there from the original story. They needed the dragons out there for the dead army advancing to make sense moving the story forward.

I believe all those things were intended by Martin, but the show runners were hamstrung by a lack of time. That series of events would have been more believable to the viewer had it unfolded over several episodes. In seasons 1-5 or so the polar bear fight ends an episode. Them capturing the wight and sending Gendry running as the full army shows up ends an episode. Then Dany arriving and the full battle ends an episode. But, deadlines.

Had Martin already laid that out for everyone over 200 pages it wouldn’t have been so universally panned.

That’s most of the point. Once D and D were out of source material they didn’t know how to tell a story.

 

[Grahamburn]

If you don't think the whole expedition beyond the wall to capture one zombie to bring back to Cersie thing was laughably horrible writing, I don't know what to tell you. Whoever put that whole thing together shouldn't be allowed to participate in a creative endeavor ever again. I think that was the absolute low point. I'm sure Martin's outline bullet that led to that was just something like, "the whitewalkers kill one of the dragons and convert it into an undead dragon they use to destroy the wall." From there the writers concocted the masterpiece we got to chortle through.

The suspension of disbelief part of that is what became difficult in that episode. But, moreso how quickly they made it happen.

Unbelievable things get accomplished in this world just by “sending a raven.” How difficult is it to believe Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton can all communicate with eachother via bird mail and hatch a completely perfect plot to murder a king where every single person executes flawlessly to accomplish their goals?

Not very believable if you think about it. But, in this world it was more believable to the viewer because it was laid out over several episodes.

The lead up to the expedition episode even had them all talking about how stupid it was to try to go get this thing.

Then all in one episode they walk a while and talk, fight a dead polar bear, find a small group of wights, manage to kidnap just one, get swarmed by the dead, send Gendry running for help, he sends a raven, Dany flies the dragon to save the day, lose a dragon, then Jon gets saved by Benjen.

I’ll agree that’s a lot to try to pack into one episode and could be deemed laughable, but it was still fun tv. Is that the writer’s fault?

BenJen was already out there from the original story. They needed the dragons out there for the dead army advancing to make sense moving the story forward.

I believe all those things were intended by Martin, but the show runners were hamstrung by a lack of time. That series of events would have been more believable to the viewer had it unfolded over several episodes. In seasons 1-5 or so the polar bear fight ends an episode. Them capturing the wight and sending Gendry running as the full army shows up ends an episode. Then Dany arriving and the full battle ends an episode. But, deadlines.

Had Martin already laid that out for everyone over 200 pages it wouldn’t have been so universally panned.

That’s most of the point. Once D and D were out of source material they didn’t know how to tell a story.

The story was fine. Just because you didn’t know what it was anymore doesn’t mean it wasn’t a good story. It’s the execution of the story that wasn’t great, but I think that’s because they weren’t given enough time to tell it.

At least they finished it.

 

[KarmaPolice]

If you don't think the whole expedition beyond the wall to capture one zombie to bring back to Cersie thing was laughably horrible writing, I don't know what to tell you. Whoever put that whole thing together shouldn't be allowed to participate in a creative endeavor ever again. I think that was the absolute low point. I'm sure Martin's outline bullet that led to that was just something like, "the whitewalkers kill one of the dragons and convert it into an undead dragon they use to destroy the wall." From there the writers concocted the masterpiece we got to chortle through.

The suspension of disbelief part of that is what became difficult in that episode. But, moreso how quickly they made it happen.

Unbelievable things get accomplished in this world just by “sending a raven.” How difficult is it to believe Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton can all communicate with eachother via bird mail and hatch a completely perfect plot to murder a king where every single person executes flawlessly to accomplish their goals?

Not very believable if you think about it. But, in this world it was more believable to the viewer because it was laid out over several episodes.

The lead up to the expedition episode even had them all talking about how stupid it was to try to go get this thing.

Then all in one episode they walk a while and talk, fight a dead polar bear, find a small group of wights, manage to kidnap just one, get swarmed by the dead, send Gendry running for help, he sends a raven, Dany flies the dragon to save the day, lose a dragon, then Jon gets saved by Benjen.

I’ll agree that’s a lot to try to pack into one episode and could be deemed laughable, but it was still fun tv. Is that the writer’s fault?

BenJen was already out there from the original story. They needed the dragons out there for the dead army advancing to make sense moving the story forward.

I believe all those things were intended by Martin, but the show runners were hamstrung by a lack of time. That series of events would have been more believable to the viewer had it unfolded over several episodes. In seasons 1-5 or so the polar bear fight ends an episode. Them capturing the wight and sending Gendry running as the full army shows up ends an episode. Then Dany arriving and the full battle ends an episode. But, deadlines.

Had Martin already laid that out for everyone over 200 pages it wouldn’t have been so universally panned.

That’s most of the point. Once D and D were out of source material they didn’t know how to tell a story.

The story was fine. Just because you didn’t know what it was anymore doesn’t mean it wasn’t a good story. It’s the execution of the story that wasn’t great, but I think that’s because they weren’t given enough time to tell it.

At least they finished it.

I thought that was their choice and HBO was fine with more episodes.

 

[Grahamburn]

If you don't think the whole expedition beyond the wall to capture one zombie to bring back to Cersie thing was laughably horrible writing, I don't know what to tell you. Whoever put that whole thing together shouldn't be allowed to participate in a creative endeavor ever again. I think that was the absolute low point. I'm sure Martin's outline bullet that led to that was just something like, "the whitewalkers kill one of the dragons and convert it into an undead dragon they use to destroy the wall." From there the writers concocted the masterpiece we got to chortle through.

The suspension of disbelief part of that is what became difficult in that episode. But, moreso how quickly they made it happen.

Unbelievable things get accomplished in this world just by “sending a raven.” How difficult is it to believe Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton can all communicate with eachother via bird mail and hatch a completely perfect plot to murder a king where every single person executes flawlessly to accomplish their goals?

Not very believable if you think about it. But, in this world it was more believable to the viewer because it was laid out over several episodes.

The lead up to the expedition episode even had them all talking about how stupid it was to try to go get this thing.

Then all in one episode they walk a while and talk, fight a dead polar bear, find a small group of wights, manage to kidnap just one, get swarmed by the dead, send Gendry running for help, he sends a raven, Dany flies the dragon to save the day, lose a dragon, then Jon gets saved by Benjen.

I’ll agree that’s a lot to try to pack into one episode and could be deemed laughable, but it was still fun tv. Is that the writer’s fault?

BenJen was already out there from the original story. They needed the dragons out there for the dead army advancing to make sense moving the story forward.

I believe all those things were intended by Martin, but the show runners were hamstrung by a lack of time. That series of events would have been more believable to the viewer had it unfolded over several episodes. In seasons 1-5 or so the polar bear fight ends an episode. Them capturing the wight and sending Gendry running as the full army shows up ends an episode. Then Dany arriving and the full battle ends an episode. But, deadlines.

Had Martin already laid that out for everyone over 200 pages it wouldn’t have been so universally panned.

That’s most of the point. Once D and D were out of source material they didn’t know how to tell a story.

The story was fine. Just because you didn’t know what it was anymore doesn’t mean it wasn’t a good story. It’s the execution of the story that wasn’t great, but I think that’s because they weren’t given enough time to tell it.

At least they finished it.

I thought that was their choice and HBO was fine with more episodes.

That could be true.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

1st 5 seasons…

First four seasons are my #1. 5-7 felt like I'd jumped on the express bus.

The people hoping for a major rewrite for Dany are going to be disappointed though, IMO. Unlike the TV show, he's laid the groundwork in the books for her to lose her marbles. It'll be done 100x better, and earned, but I think that arc for her is still likely.

Yeah, throughout the books the Targaryens are considered a coin flip. We were misled early when we assumed the brother was the “mad” Targaryen. But, in almost every instance when Daenerys had a choice between mercy and violence - she chose violence. We rooted for it because we liked Daenerys and we thought she had good intentions. But, she was always destined to burn it all down.

They foreshadowed Dany going straight ash in season 2 with the warlocks.

It was always there and was always going to happen.

Season 1 - tying medicine woman to Drago's funeral pyre
Season 2 - warlock in House of the Undying
Season 3 - Slaver who sold her the Unsullied
Season 4 - Retaliates against Slave Masters by nailing them to the posts on the road (In place of salves)
Season 5 - Meereen nobleman fed to Dragons
Season 6 - Burned Dothraki Kahls; When Slavers were negotiating for her surrender - she had 2 of 3 killed while Drogon laid waste to the fleet
Season 7 - Burned Randall and Dickon Tarley for failing to bend the knee
Season 8 - Burned Varys for treason.

Why and how matter. A soldier killing people in a war can come home a hero. If he comes back home and shoots up a school...

 

[Dr_Zaius]

Unbelievable things get accomplished in this world just by “sending a raven.” How difficult is it to believe Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton can all communicate with eachother via bird mail and hatch a completely perfect plot to murder a king where every single person executes flawlessly to accomplish their goals?

I agree with most of what you wrote, but I don't find the Red Wedding as being particularly implausible. It's laid out that both Frey and Bolton are very unhappy with Rob's marriage. It's known Tywin wants to get rid of Rob. All Walder Frey has to do is let it be known that he's willing and able to get rid of Rob for Tywin if the price is right and then get Roose on board. Tell them to bring some men at X date, and you're done as there's no need to conduct intricate planning via Raven. The fact that the betrayal is done in a way that is completely beyond the pale of the customs of the land is what makes it work - nobody's expecting to get slaughtered at a wedding feast. Indeed, at least in the books Caitlyn insists on being served food right after they arrive because she worries they are in danger, and she [wrongly] thinks that Frey wouldn't possibly break those norms.

 

[Grahamburn]

Unbelievable things get accomplished in this world just by “sending a raven.” How difficult is it to believe Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton can all communicate with eachother via bird mail and hatch a completely perfect plot to murder a king where every single person executes flawlessly to accomplish their goals?

I agree with most of what you wrote, but I don't find the Red Wedding as being particularly implausible. It's laid out that both Frey and Bolton are very unhappy with Rob's marriage. It's known Tywin wants to get rid of Rob. All Walder Frey has to do is let it be known that he's willing and able to get rid of Rob for Tywin if the price is right and then get Roose on board. Tell them to bring some men at X date, and you're done as there's no need to conduct intricate planning via Raven. The fact that the betrayal is done in a way that is completely beyond the pale of the customs of the land is what makes it work - nobody's expecting to get slaughtered at a wedding feast. Indeed, at least in the books Caitlyn insists on being served food right after they arrive because she worries they are in danger, and she [wrongly] thinks that Frey wouldn't possibly break those norms.

That's kind of my point though. It's all implausible or it's not. You could nitpick the world endlessly if you wanted to from the show perspective. My feeling is the nitpicking was much louder once the show passed the books. Warranted? Maybe? But not to the point where they were idiots and ruined a franchise. That's unfair.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Unbelievable things get accomplished in this world just by “sending a raven.” How difficult is it to believe Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton can all communicate with eachother via bird mail and hatch a completely perfect plot to murder a king where every single person executes flawlessly to accomplish their goals?

I agree with most of what you wrote, but I don't find the Red Wedding as being particularly implausible. It's laid out that both Frey and Bolton are very unhappy with Rob's marriage. It's known Tywin wants to get rid of Rob. All Walder Frey has to do is let it be known that he's willing and able to get rid of Rob for Tywin if the price is right and then get Roose on board. Tell them to bring some men at X date, and you're done as there's no need to conduct intricate planning via Raven. The fact that the betrayal is done in a way that is completely beyond the pale of the customs of the land is what makes it work - nobody's expecting to get slaughtered at a wedding feast. Indeed, at least in the books Caitlyn insists on being served food right after they arrive because she worries they are in danger, and she [wrongly] thinks that Frey wouldn't possibly break those norms.

That's kind of my point though. It's all implausible or it's not. You could nitpick the world endlessly if you wanted to from the show perspective. My feeling is the nitpicking was much louder once the show passed the books. Warranted? Maybe? But not to the point where they were idiots and ruined a franchise. That's unfair.

I guess I don't think it's totally unfair if you think the writing dropped off that much. They were the show runners, and they seemed behind the decisions like finishing it up when they did and not bringing in writers. I don't think people in their position get there because they are idiots. It think it's more hubris at play.

Yes, nitpicking gets louder when somebody is not enjoying something. That is just natural. I am guilty of that all the time, but am also honest about that. I don't think that is 100% what went on here, and I gave specifics why. The basic disagreement that people seem to have is how far the quality dropped in the first place. You seem to be admitting the show wasn't as epic, but it was still great overall. Am I understanding that right - if seasons 1-4 were a 10/10 (most in here seem to agree on that), you would say that that 5+ were still graded at 7 or 8 out of 10 or higher?

I and others seem to be in the camp that it dropped more to the level of 5/10 or less at times. Ruined is a strong word, and I wouldn't use that. I don't hate watch shows, so there was enough at the end that kept me going. There were still characters I loved and moments of greatness. There was also a lot of crap like Sand Snakes, Reek, silly adventures north of the wall and many other examples. That is all writing and choices about the show, and I am not sure who else to point the finger at besides D&D when that is the case. (Besides core deaths and decisions at the book level that I highlighted elsewhere).

 

[Grahamburn]

Unbelievable things get accomplished in this world just by “sending a raven.” How difficult is it to believe Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton can all communicate with eachother via bird mail and hatch a completely perfect plot to murder a king where every single person executes flawlessly to accomplish their goals?

I agree with most of what you wrote, but I don't find the Red Wedding as being particularly implausible. It's laid out that both Frey and Bolton are very unhappy with Rob's marriage. It's known Tywin wants to get rid of Rob. All Walder Frey has to do is let it be known that he's willing and able to get rid of Rob for Tywin if the price is right and then get Roose on board. Tell them to bring some men at X date, and you're done as there's no need to conduct intricate planning via Raven. The fact that the betrayal is done in a way that is completely beyond the pale of the customs of the land is what makes it work - nobody's expecting to get slaughtered at a wedding feast. Indeed, at least in the books Caitlyn insists on being served food right after they arrive because she worries they are in danger, and she [wrongly] thinks that Frey wouldn't possibly break those norms.

That's kind of my point though. It's all implausible or it's not. You could nitpick the world endlessly if you wanted to from the show perspective. My feeling is the nitpicking was much louder once the show passed the books. Warranted? Maybe? But not to the point where they were idiots and ruined a franchise. That's unfair.

I guess I don't think it's totally unfair if you think the writing dropped off that much. They were the show runners, and they seemed behind the decisions like finishing it up when they did and not bringing in writers. I don't think people in their position get there because they are idiots. It think it's more hubris at play.

Yes, nitpicking gets louder when somebody is not enjoying something. That is just natural. I am guilty of that all the time, but am also honest about that. I don't think that is 100% what went on here, and I gave specifics why. The basic disagreement that people seem to have is how far the quality dropped in the first place. You seem to be admitting the show wasn't as epic, but it was still great overall. Am I understanding that right - if seasons 1-4 were a 10/10 (most in here seem to agree on that), you would say that that 5+ were still graded at 7 or 8 out of 10 or higher?

I and others seem to be in the camp that it dropped more to the level of 5/10 or less at times. Ruined is a strong word, and I wouldn't use that. I don't hate watch shows, so there was enough at the end that kept me going. There were still characters I loved and moments of greatness. There was also a lot of crap like Sand Snakes, Reek, silly adventures north of the wall and many other examples. That is all writing and choices about the show, and I am not sure who else to point the finger at besides D&D when that is the case. (Besides core deaths and decisions at the book level that I highlighted elsewhere).

I'd agree with most of that. I'm re-watching it all now so it's fresh in my mind.

There was still some really great stuff in seasons 5-8. Maybe everything wasn't a home run the way it was in the first 4 seasons? It's not easy to keep up that pace.

The show definitely grew into more of a Hollywood production and with that the dialogue suffered. So, yeah, I'd say more of a 7 or 8/10 for me personally. Whereas the people who found the witty banter aspect of the show most interesting were surely turned off and probably went "5/10 this is Marvel Star Wars dumb now." I get that too, but as the success continued they had to go bigger and the minor squabbling between the houses that everyone loved became irrelevant as the real threat fully emerged. The outrage that it turned into a zombie epic just seems misplaced. It was always going there. The opening scene of the show was a zombie murdering guys.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Unbelievable things get accomplished in this world just by “sending a raven.” How difficult is it to believe Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton can all communicate with eachother via bird mail and hatch a completely perfect plot to murder a king where every single person executes flawlessly to accomplish their goals?

I agree with most of what you wrote, but I don't find the Red Wedding as being particularly implausible. It's laid out that both Frey and Bolton are very unhappy with Rob's marriage. It's known Tywin wants to get rid of Rob. All Walder Frey has to do is let it be known that he's willing and able to get rid of Rob for Tywin if the price is right and then get Roose on board. Tell them to bring some men at X date, and you're done as there's no need to conduct intricate planning via Raven. The fact that the betrayal is done in a way that is completely beyond the pale of the customs of the land is what makes it work - nobody's expecting to get slaughtered at a wedding feast. Indeed, at least in the books Caitlyn insists on being served food right after they arrive because she worries they are in danger, and she [wrongly] thinks that Frey wouldn't possibly break those norms.

That's kind of my point though. It's all implausible or it's not. You could nitpick the world endlessly if you wanted to from the show perspective. My feeling is the nitpicking was much louder once the show passed the books. Warranted? Maybe? But not to the point where they were idiots and ruined a franchise. That's unfair.

I guess I don't think it's totally unfair if you think the writing dropped off that much. They were the show runners, and they seemed behind the decisions like finishing it up when they did and not bringing in writers. I don't think people in their position get there because they are idiots. It think it's more hubris at play.

Yes, nitpicking gets louder when somebody is not enjoying something. That is just natural. I am guilty of that all the time, but am also honest about that. I don't think that is 100% what went on here, and I gave specifics why. The basic disagreement that people seem to have is how far the quality dropped in the first place. You seem to be admitting the show wasn't as epic, but it was still great overall. Am I understanding that right - if seasons 1-4 were a 10/10 (most in here seem to agree on that), you would say that that 5+ were still graded at 7 or 8 out of 10 or higher?

I and others seem to be in the camp that it dropped more to the level of 5/10 or less at times. Ruined is a strong word, and I wouldn't use that. I don't hate watch shows, so there was enough at the end that kept me going. There were still characters I loved and moments of greatness. There was also a lot of crap like Sand Snakes, Reek, silly adventures north of the wall and many other examples. That is all writing and choices about the show, and I am not sure who else to point the finger at besides D&D when that is the case. (Besides core deaths and decisions at the book level that I highlighted elsewhere).

I'd agree with most of that. I'm re-watching it all now so it's fresh in my mind.

There was still some really great stuff in seasons 5-8. Maybe everything wasn't a home run the way it was in the first 4 seasons? It's not easy to keep up that pace.

The show definitely grew into more of a Hollywood production and with that the dialogue suffered. So, yeah, I'd say more of a 7 or 8/10 for me personally. Whereas the people who found the witty banter aspect of the show most interesting were surely turned off and probably went "5/10 this is Marvel Star Wars dumb now." I get that too, but as the success continued they had to go bigger and the minor squabbling between the houses that everyone loved became irrelevant as the real threat fully emerged. The outrage that it turned into a zombie epic just seems misplaced. It was always going there. The opening scene of the show was a zombie murdering guys.

I think this misses the mark a little, at least for me. I understand that there were always white walkers and dragon stuff, and it had to build up to some epic battles.

My retort is that zombies and dragons being in a show doesn't mean it has to be mindless popcorn crap. It started out as a Breaking Bad level show with zombies and dragons and morphed into a dumb popcorn show. That's more what I feel that the complaint is, not that there were zombies, dragons, and mad queens at the end.

 

[KarmaPolice]

All that said, unlike you I haven't done a rewatch. It's very possible I change my opinion if I do one, it happens a lot.

One thing that bothered me on first watch is fixed- I have a better TV. There were a ton of dark scenes and with our connection and TV it often looked crappy. One of these days when I see the 4ks on sale I will get them and do another run through.

 

[Grahamburn]

All that said, unlike you I haven't done a rewatch. It's very possible I change my opinion if I do one, it happens a lot.

One thing that bothered me on first watch is fixed- I have a better TV. There were a ton of dark scenes and with our connection and TV it often looked crappy. One of these days when I see the 4ks on sale I will get them and do another run through.

Those last couple seasons were very dark.

Binging it has helped. You can feel the difference in the seasons. But it also ties together so much more when you aren’t waiting years between them.