HC Bill Belichick (3 Viewers)

[NE_REVIVAL]

For the "It was all Brady" contingent, almost all great coaches won with the benefit of having a HOF QB. Here are all the coaches that have won multiple SBs:

Noll - 4 (Bradshaw)
Walsh -3 (Montana)
Lombardi - 2 (Starr)
Shula - 2 (Griese)
Reid - 2 (Mahomes)
Landry - 2 (Staubach)
Coughlin - 2 (Eli)
Shanahan - 2 (Elway)
Seifert - 2 (Montana, Young)
Johnson - 2 (Aikman)

There have been only 3 coaches with multiple SB wins that didn't have a HOF QB:

Gibbs - 3 (Theisman, Williams, Rypien)
Parcells - 2 (Simms, Hostetler)
Flores - 2 (Plunkett)

(As a side note, how Gibbs won with those three guys should be considered a much bigger deal than people really talk about.)

It's pretty clear that the Brady and BB pairing yielded great results. It's not out of the range of outcomes that had Drew Bledsoe stayed healthy that BB could have been let go and NE could still be looking for their first ring . . . but it's also possible Brady could have ended up selling life insurance and never ended up as a starter in the league.

I don't get how anyone who knows much about Brady could say the bolded part? Brady outplayed Bledsoe year one and it had zero to do with BB, no matter where the guy went his work ethic, determination and talent wouldn't have gone away. Remember SF passed on him in the draft so he ended up going to that "QB haven" in NE Would not argue Brady doesn't win 7 SBs without BB, but to suggest he doesn't make it at all in the NFL without BB is ridiculous imho.

 

[Fat Nick]

For the "It was all Brady" contingent, almost all great coaches won with the benefit of having a HOF QB. Here are all the coaches that have won multiple SBs:

Noll - 4 (Bradshaw)
Walsh -3 (Montana)
Lombardi - 2 (Starr)
Shula - 2 (Griese)
Reid - 2 (Mahomes)
Landry - 2 (Staubach)
Coughlin - 2 (Eli)
Shanahan - 2 (Elway)
Seifert - 2 (Montana, Young)
Johnson - 2 (Aikman)

There have been only 3 coaches with multiple SB wins that didn't have a HOF QB:

Gibbs - 3 (Theisman, Williams, Rypien)
Parcells - 2 (Simms, Hostetler)
Flores - 2 (Plunkett)

(As a side note, how Gibbs won with those three guys should be considered a much bigger deal than people really talk about.)

It's pretty clear that the Brady and BB pairing yielded great results. It's not out of the range of outcomes that had Drew Bledsoe stayed healthy that BB could have been let go and NE could still be looking for their first ring . . . but it's also possible Brady could have ended up selling life insurance and never ended up as a starter in the league.

Gibbs was one of the greatest coaches to ever coach in the NFL. Not only 3 different starting QBs, but 3 totally different offenses with different starting RBs too. Gibbs just got the best out of every player he coached.

Agree 100% on Gibbs...but I will say that one of the consistencies on his team was the offensive line. That team operated because that line shut people down and was a model of consistency. Joe Jacoby, Russ Grim, Mark May, and Jeff Bostic were all in their first few years in the league for the '82 team, and a good subset of them were on the '91 team, with only a few integrations over that time (Jim Lachey, Mark Schlereth). Rypien was only sacked 7 times all season in their SB run...and ZERO times in the playoffs. Give a guy that much time, and a lot of guys will look like HOF QB's.

*Apologies - I realize this was a total thread hijack. I'll stop here.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I understand why we are where we are right now with Belichick, and make no mistake, I hated the Patriots to the point where it would effect my gambling strategy for a number of years (bet on them to win because then I either made money or would gladly "pay" to watch them lose). But I do hate this is where the conversation is at right now. Really wish he would walk away and we can move the conversation to recognizing him as a top 5 coach of all time in the NFL. Not that many of the points made in this thread aren't true and valid. But some lack nuance, and many err by omission. Anarchy may be a "homer", though I think he can be equally tough on his team and view them without rose colored glasses. And I appreciate his push back against some of the blanket statements that just aren't true.

Waldman and FBG own Adam Harstad had a terrific pod last week discussing more of the minutiae and looking at his career as a whole rather than these past couple years. Probably one of the biggest takeaways for me was just the poor/unlucky circumstance of Belichick's decline coinciding with Brady leaving the team. While it can create the narrative that Brady "carried" him, or that he wouldn't have been viewed as a top coach of all time without him; they do a fantastic job detailing how that couldn't be further from the case. For the better part of 20 years the entire league found both small and large scale success by borrowing, if not straight up copying, what Bill did. At this point, it does feel that the league has passed him by. It does for all the greats. Bill Walsh burned bright, but burned fast, and is still considered one of the best. Tom Landry got fired. Steelers let Chuck Noll die on vine and kept him years after he should have been let go. The longevity of Belichick combined with his wins over .500 is unrivaled by all but Halas and Shula. And while he would never be considered a great GM, I think there was a time where he was above average at least. He was a pro at trading back and acquiring later round picks, casting a wider net and catching his players that way. He also definitely had an eye for talent picking up cast offs who were written off or tagged as past their prime and able to turn them into gold. While its obvious WR was a weak spot, I'd argue there was a point in time he was one of the best with RBs. Jets cut Danny Woodhead a game into the season, didn't even want him on the roster, and Bill scooped him and got 1k yds from him immediately. And Gronk himself will tell you Belichick helped make him the greatest TE of all time not only with how he was initially employed in 12 personnel (at a time when the offense didn't even need to change it was already successful), but then when he reinvented TE usage and started running Gronk down the seem and pushing him down for those long explosive plays where no one could bring him down as he was already going full steam and the only defenders in the area were DBs 40+ lbs lighter than him.

Did he benefit from being in a poor division? Sure. The same way Brady did, but yet I rarely hear that as a knock against him. Did he benefit from Brady? Sure. Find me a HOF coach who didn't have their best years paired with a HOF QB. Shula Unitas. Landry Staubach. Lombardi Starr. It's an supporting factor. Not the reason. When did Brady really explode and start becoming the star of the show? 2007? 2008? Didn't that also happen to coincide with when Belichick basically reinvented NFL offenses bringing the shotgun spread in? At a time when other teams were running it maybe 20% of the time and he made it their base formation. And then 4-5 years later, every single other team in the league was doing it 80%+ of the time. And Brady took off those years.

He was a guru, excellent with both offensive and defensive schemes, able to squeeze every last ounce of talent out of players many other overlooked, reinvented the game multiple times.... I hate him for his greatness, but damn if I'm gonna deny him his flowers. It's a crap situation to be in right now, and like I started with, I understand why we're here. But we probably all should put a little more respect on his name and what he's done rather then chalking up a 30 year GOAT contending career to Brady, a weak division, and a few poor drafts. Ok I have to go wash my mouth out now, and will return to another decade of declining to ever say nice things about Brady/Bill/the Patriots.

im sorry but the crappy division and brady absolutely aided his numbers. you cant talk me out of that

I think he acknowledged those factors.

But Bill did a lot of very good and innovative things with this team beyond such an over simplification as that.

I think Bill has always been more of a defensive minded coach and he was able to develop schemes that were unique that got the best out of defensive players skill sets. The defense was able to transform itself on a weekly basis to take away what opponents did best with such innovations and personnel groupings to match these plans.

They consistently were one of the best running teams in the league while usually using some form of RBBC. Instead of RBBC being a liability it became a strength that had built in counters for how teams would try to defend against it and could adjust to opposing defenses.

The spread passing game as mentioned caused Wes Welker and then Edelmans abilities to be maximized. For the most part the Patriots haven't been good at drafting WR talent the entire time Bill has been there, but they were able to get more out of free agent WR than those players had done with their former teams.

There are too many good things they have done than just have Brady. The weakness of the division doesn’t matter much in my view when the Patriots were dominating all the other divisions too. For a long time the only games they would lose were to other top level super bowl caliber teams, and they won a lot of those games too. The league was weak compared to the Patriots for decades, not just the AFC East.

the weak division allowed them to have home playoff games every year. most of the time home field throughout. very similar to whats going on in KC right now. that helps a ton

Not only that, the other 3 teams in the AFC East didn't have a franchise QB for 20 years while the Pats had Brady. Imagine it was Josh Allen, Tua, and Rodgers. In an alternate universe where the Pats didn't draft Brady, Belichick probably never wins a single Superbowl with them and has a similar career arc to his Cleveland days. I don't think this is an oversimplification and it's exactly how it played out post Brady.

 

[Boston]

I understand why we are where we are right now with Belichick, and make no mistake, I hated the Patriots to the point where it would effect my gambling strategy for a number of years (bet on them to win because then I either made money or would gladly "pay" to watch them lose). But I do hate this is where the conversation is at right now. Really wish he would walk away and we can move the conversation to recognizing him as a top 5 coach of all time in the NFL. Not that many of the points made in this thread aren't true and valid. But some lack nuance, and many err by omission. Anarchy may be a "homer", though I think he can be equally tough on his team and view them without rose colored glasses. And I appreciate his push back against some of the blanket statements that just aren't true.

Waldman and FBG own Adam Harstad had a terrific pod last week discussing more of the minutiae and looking at his career as a whole rather than these past couple years. Probably one of the biggest takeaways for me was just the poor/unlucky circumstance of Belichick's decline coinciding with Brady leaving the team. While it can create the narrative that Brady "carried" him, or that he wouldn't have been viewed as a top coach of all time without him; they do a fantastic job detailing how that couldn't be further from the case. For the better part of 20 years the entire league found both small and large scale success by borrowing, if not straight up copying, what Bill did. At this point, it does feel that the league has passed him by. It does for all the greats. Bill Walsh burned bright, but burned fast, and is still considered one of the best. Tom Landry got fired. Steelers let Chuck Noll die on vine and kept him years after he should have been let go. The longevity of Belichick combined with his wins over .500 is unrivaled by all but Halas and Shula. And while he would never be considered a great GM, I think there was a time where he was above average at least. He was a pro at trading back and acquiring later round picks, casting a wider net and catching his players that way. He also definitely had an eye for talent picking up cast offs who were written off or tagged as past their prime and able to turn them into gold. While its obvious WR was a weak spot, I'd argue there was a point in time he was one of the best with RBs. Jets cut Danny Woodhead a game into the season, didn't even want him on the roster, and Bill scooped him and got 1k yds from him immediately. And Gronk himself will tell you Belichick helped make him the greatest TE of all time not only with how he was initially employed in 12 personnel (at a time when the offense didn't even need to change it was already successful), but then when he reinvented TE usage and started running Gronk down the seem and pushing him down for those long explosive plays where no one could bring him down as he was already going full steam and the only defenders in the area were DBs 40+ lbs lighter than him.

Did he benefit from being in a poor division? Sure. The same way Brady did, but yet I rarely hear that as a knock against him. Did he benefit from Brady? Sure. Find me a HOF coach who didn't have their best years paired with a HOF QB. Shula Unitas. Landry Staubach. Lombardi Starr. It's an supporting factor. Not the reason. When did Brady really explode and start becoming the star of the show? 2007? 2008? Didn't that also happen to coincide with when Belichick basically reinvented NFL offenses bringing the shotgun spread in? At a time when other teams were running it maybe 20% of the time and he made it their base formation. And then 4-5 years later, every single other team in the league was doing it 80%+ of the time. And Brady took off those years.

He was a guru, excellent with both offensive and defensive schemes, able to squeeze every last ounce of talent out of players many other overlooked, reinvented the game multiple times.... I hate him for his greatness, but damn if I'm gonna deny him his flowers. It's a crap situation to be in right now, and like I started with, I understand why we're here. But we probably all should put a little more respect on his name and what he's done rather then chalking up a 30 year GOAT contending career to Brady, a weak division, and a few poor drafts. Ok I have to go wash my mouth out now, and will return to another decade of declining to ever say nice things about Brady/Bill/the Patriots.

im sorry but the crappy division and brady absolutely aided his numbers. you cant talk me out of that

I think he acknowledged those factors.

But Bill did a lot of very good and innovative things with this team beyond such an over simplification as that.

I think Bill has always been more of a defensive minded coach and he was able to develop schemes that were unique that got the best out of defensive players skill sets. The defense was able to transform itself on a weekly basis to take away what opponents did best with such innovations and personnel groupings to match these plans.

They consistently were one of the best running teams in the league while usually using some form of RBBC. Instead of RBBC being a liability it became a strength that had built in counters for how teams would try to defend against it and could adjust to opposing defenses.

The spread passing game as mentioned caused Wes Welker and then Edelmans abilities to be maximized. For the most part the Patriots haven't been good at drafting WR talent the entire time Bill has been there, but they were able to get more out of free agent WR than those players had done with their former teams.

There are too many good things they have done than just have Brady. The weakness of the division doesn’t matter much in my view when the Patriots were dominating all the other divisions too. For a long time the only games they would lose were to other top level super bowl caliber teams, and they won a lot of those games too. The league was weak compared to the Patriots for decades, not just the AFC East.

the weak division allowed them to have home playoff games every year. most of the time home field throughout. very similar to whats going on in KC right now. that helps a ton

Not only that, the other 3 teams in the AFC East didn't have a franchise QB for 20 years while the Pats had Brady. Imagine it was Josh Allen, Tua, and Rodgers. In an alternate universe where the Pats didn't draft Brady, Belichick probably never wins a single Superbowl with them and has a similar career arc to his Cleveland days.

Funny but I remember getting into a lot of arguments with those who said Brady was nothing more than an over-rated system QB during those first 3 championships.

 

[Anarchy99]

For the "It was all Brady" contingent, almost all great coaches won with the benefit of having a HOF QB. Here are all the coaches that have won multiple SBs:

Noll - 4 (Bradshaw)
Walsh -3 (Montana)
Lombardi - 2 (Starr)
Shula - 2 (Griese)
Reid - 2 (Mahomes)
Landry - 2 (Staubach)
Coughlin - 2 (Eli)
Shanahan - 2 (Elway)
Seifert - 2 (Montana, Young)
Johnson - 2 (Aikman)

There have been only 3 coaches with multiple SB wins that didn't have a HOF QB:

Gibbs - 3 (Theisman, Williams, Rypien)
Parcells - 2 (Simms, Hostetler)
Flores - 2 (Plunkett)

(As a side note, how Gibbs won with those three guys should be considered a much bigger deal than people really talk about.)

It's pretty clear that the Brady and BB pairing yielded great results. It's not out of the range of outcomes that had Drew Bledsoe stayed healthy that BB could have been let go and NE could still be looking for their first ring . . . but it's also possible Brady could have ended up selling life insurance and never ended up as a starter in the league.

I don't get how anyone who knows much about Brady could say the bolded part? Brady outplayed Bledsoe year one and it had zero to do with BB, no matter where the guy went his work ethic, determination and talent wouldn't have gone away. Remember SF passed on him in the draft so he ended up going to that "QB haven" in NE Would not argue Brady doesn't win 7 SBs without BB, but to suggest he doesn't make it at all in the NFL without BB is ridiculous imho.

Play things out differently. Bledsoe doesn’t get hurt and the 2001 Pats end up at 6-10. BB gets fired. They stick with Bledsoe as the face of the franchise. Brady hangs around as a backup and never gets a chance to start in NE.

Now let’s go fork in the road. Say he got picked up by a bottom feeder. Would he have had much success as a backup on CLE, CIN, or DET? Now go the other extreme. Suppose he got picked up as a backup in IND, PIT, SD, ATL, or NYG?

We’ll never know what might have happened, but it’s not a crazy notion that Brady may only have hung around for a few seasons and never got a legit chance to start on a contending team.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

For the "It was all Brady" contingent, almost all great coaches won with the benefit of having a HOF QB. Here are all the coaches that have won multiple SBs:

Noll - 4 (Bradshaw)
Walsh -3 (Montana)
Lombardi - 2 (Starr)
Shula - 2 (Griese)
Reid - 2 (Mahomes)
Landry - 2 (Staubach)
Coughlin - 2 (Eli)
Shanahan - 2 (Elway)
Seifert - 2 (Montana, Young)
Johnson - 2 (Aikman)

There have been only 3 coaches with multiple SB wins that didn't have a HOF QB:

Gibbs - 3 (Theisman, Williams, Rypien)
Parcells - 2 (Simms, Hostetler)
Flores - 2 (Plunkett)

(As a side note, how Gibbs won with those three guys should be considered a much bigger deal than people really talk about.)

It's pretty clear that the Brady and BB pairing yielded great results. It's not out of the range of outcomes that had Drew Bledsoe stayed healthy that BB could have been let go and NE could still be looking for their first ring . . . but it's also possible Brady could have ended up selling life insurance and never ended up as a starter in the league.

I don't get how anyone who knows much about Brady could say the bolded part? Brady outplayed Bledsoe year one and it had zero to do with BB, no matter where the guy went his work ethic, determination and talent wouldn't have gone away. Remember SF passed on him in the draft so he ended up going to that "QB haven" in NE Would not argue Brady doesn't win 7 SBs without BB, but to suggest he doesn't make it at all in the NFL without BB is ridiculous imho.

Those 1st 3 Super Bowls, Brady is a shell of what he turns into when Randy Moss joins the team.
His last 3-4 SB wins, especially with Tampa Bay had as much to do with surrounding cast as anything. but Brady the CEO, nobody can argue much with that.
I do credit BB a LOT for the first Dyansty run by the Patriots.
I don't know of any other player-coach that had a dynasty run quite like these two.

I'm not taking sides here, enjoy both of your posts and insight/analysis/thoughts into what is happening up in Foxsboro
Thanks!

 

[jm192]

I think if you can put him in a place with a good GM and a team full of talent, he can succeed.

I think He hurt himself a lot as GM. And he hasn't had the talent to win. He doesn't need a team full of probowlers, but Mac Jones and that receiver group aren't taking you anywhere.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I understand why we are where we are right now with Belichick, and make no mistake, I hated the Patriots to the point where it would effect my gambling strategy for a number of years (bet on them to win because then I either made money or would gladly "pay" to watch them lose). But I do hate this is where the conversation is at right now. Really wish he would walk away and we can move the conversation to recognizing him as a top 5 coach of all time in the NFL. Not that many of the points made in this thread aren't true and valid. But some lack nuance, and many err by omission. Anarchy may be a "homer", though I think he can be equally tough on his team and view them without rose colored glasses. And I appreciate his push back against some of the blanket statements that just aren't true.

Waldman and FBG own Adam Harstad had a terrific pod last week discussing more of the minutiae and looking at his career as a whole rather than these past couple years. Probably one of the biggest takeaways for me was just the poor/unlucky circumstance of Belichick's decline coinciding with Brady leaving the team. While it can create the narrative that Brady "carried" him, or that he wouldn't have been viewed as a top coach of all time without him; they do a fantastic job detailing how that couldn't be further from the case. For the better part of 20 years the entire league found both small and large scale success by borrowing, if not straight up copying, what Bill did. At this point, it does feel that the league has passed him by. It does for all the greats. Bill Walsh burned bright, but burned fast, and is still considered one of the best. Tom Landry got fired. Steelers let Chuck Noll die on vine and kept him years after he should have been let go. The longevity of Belichick combined with his wins over .500 is unrivaled by all but Halas and Shula. And while he would never be considered a great GM, I think there was a time where he was above average at least. He was a pro at trading back and acquiring later round picks, casting a wider net and catching his players that way. He also definitely had an eye for talent picking up cast offs who were written off or tagged as past their prime and able to turn them into gold. While its obvious WR was a weak spot, I'd argue there was a point in time he was one of the best with RBs. Jets cut Danny Woodhead a game into the season, didn't even want him on the roster, and Bill scooped him and got 1k yds from him immediately. And Gronk himself will tell you Belichick helped make him the greatest TE of all time not only with how he was initially employed in 12 personnel (at a time when the offense didn't even need to change it was already successful), but then when he reinvented TE usage and started running Gronk down the seem and pushing him down for those long explosive plays where no one could bring him down as he was already going full steam and the only defenders in the area were DBs 40+ lbs lighter than him.

Did he benefit from being in a poor division? Sure. The same way Brady did, but yet I rarely hear that as a knock against him. Did he benefit from Brady? Sure. Find me a HOF coach who didn't have their best years paired with a HOF QB. Shula Unitas. Landry Staubach. Lombardi Starr. It's an supporting factor. Not the reason. When did Brady really explode and start becoming the star of the show? 2007? 2008? Didn't that also happen to coincide with when Belichick basically reinvented NFL offenses bringing the shotgun spread in? At a time when other teams were running it maybe 20% of the time and he made it their base formation. And then 4-5 years later, every single other team in the league was doing it 80%+ of the time. And Brady took off those years.

He was a guru, excellent with both offensive and defensive schemes, able to squeeze every last ounce of talent out of players many other overlooked, reinvented the game multiple times.... I hate him for his greatness, but damn if I'm gonna deny him his flowers. It's a crap situation to be in right now, and like I started with, I understand why we're here. But we probably all should put a little more respect on his name and what he's done rather then chalking up a 30 year GOAT contending career to Brady, a weak division, and a few poor drafts. Ok I have to go wash my mouth out now, and will return to another decade of declining to ever say nice things about Brady/Bill/the Patriots.

im sorry but the crappy division and brady absolutely aided his numbers. you cant talk me out of that

I think he acknowledged those factors.

But Bill did a lot of very good and innovative things with this team beyond such an over simplification as that.

I think Bill has always been more of a defensive minded coach and he was able to develop schemes that were unique that got the best out of defensive players skill sets. The defense was able to transform itself on a weekly basis to take away what opponents did best with such innovations and personnel groupings to match these plans.

They consistently were one of the best running teams in the league while usually using some form of RBBC. Instead of RBBC being a liability it became a strength that had built in counters for how teams would try to defend against it and could adjust to opposing defenses.

The spread passing game as mentioned caused Wes Welker and then Edelmans abilities to be maximized. For the most part the Patriots haven't been good at drafting WR talent the entire time Bill has been there, but they were able to get more out of free agent WR than those players had done with their former teams.

There are too many good things they have done than just have Brady. The weakness of the division doesn’t matter much in my view when the Patriots were dominating all the other divisions too. For a long time the only games they would lose were to other top level super bowl caliber teams, and they won a lot of those games too. The league was weak compared to the Patriots for decades, not just the AFC East.

the weak division allowed them to have home playoff games every year. most of the time home field throughout. very similar to whats going on in KC right now. that helps a ton

Not only that, the other 3 teams in the AFC East didn't have a franchise QB for 20 years while the Pats had Brady. Imagine it was Josh Allen, Tua, and Rodgers. In an alternate universe where the Pats didn't draft Brady, Belichick probably never wins a single Superbowl with them and has a similar career arc to his Cleveland days.

Funny but I remember getting into a lot of arguments with those who said Brady was nothing more than an over-rated system QB during those first 3 championships.

I know right. Imagine you get to play in a division where you get the best QB of all time and the next best QB is your backup. That's how it was for years in the AFC East. No other division was that QB poor during those 2 decades not even the NFC North with Rodgers.

 

[Biabreakable]

I understand why we are where we are right now with Belichick, and make no mistake, I hated the Patriots to the point where it would effect my gambling strategy for a number of years (bet on them to win because then I either made money or would gladly "pay" to watch them lose). But I do hate this is where the conversation is at right now. Really wish he would walk away and we can move the conversation to recognizing him as a top 5 coach of all time in the NFL. Not that many of the points made in this thread aren't true and valid. But some lack nuance, and many err by omission. Anarchy may be a "homer", though I think he can be equally tough on his team and view them without rose colored glasses. And I appreciate his push back against some of the blanket statements that just aren't true.

Waldman and FBG own Adam Harstad had a terrific pod last week discussing more of the minutiae and looking at his career as a whole rather than these past couple years. Probably one of the biggest takeaways for me was just the poor/unlucky circumstance of Belichick's decline coinciding with Brady leaving the team. While it can create the narrative that Brady "carried" him, or that he wouldn't have been viewed as a top coach of all time without him; they do a fantastic job detailing how that couldn't be further from the case. For the better part of 20 years the entire league found both small and large scale success by borrowing, if not straight up copying, what Bill did. At this point, it does feel that the league has passed him by. It does for all the greats. Bill Walsh burned bright, but burned fast, and is still considered one of the best. Tom Landry got fired. Steelers let Chuck Noll die on vine and kept him years after he should have been let go. The longevity of Belichick combined with his wins over .500 is unrivaled by all but Halas and Shula. And while he would never be considered a great GM, I think there was a time where he was above average at least. He was a pro at trading back and acquiring later round picks, casting a wider net and catching his players that way. He also definitely had an eye for talent picking up cast offs who were written off or tagged as past their prime and able to turn them into gold. While its obvious WR was a weak spot, I'd argue there was a point in time he was one of the best with RBs. Jets cut Danny Woodhead a game into the season, didn't even want him on the roster, and Bill scooped him and got 1k yds from him immediately. And Gronk himself will tell you Belichick helped make him the greatest TE of all time not only with how he was initially employed in 12 personnel (at a time when the offense didn't even need to change it was already successful), but then when he reinvented TE usage and started running Gronk down the seem and pushing him down for those long explosive plays where no one could bring him down as he was already going full steam and the only defenders in the area were DBs 40+ lbs lighter than him.

Did he benefit from being in a poor division? Sure. The same way Brady did, but yet I rarely hear that as a knock against him. Did he benefit from Brady? Sure. Find me a HOF coach who didn't have their best years paired with a HOF QB. Shula Unitas. Landry Staubach. Lombardi Starr. It's an supporting factor. Not the reason. When did Brady really explode and start becoming the star of the show? 2007? 2008? Didn't that also happen to coincide with when Belichick basically reinvented NFL offenses bringing the shotgun spread in? At a time when other teams were running it maybe 20% of the time and he made it their base formation. And then 4-5 years later, every single other team in the league was doing it 80%+ of the time. And Brady took off those years.

He was a guru, excellent with both offensive and defensive schemes, able to squeeze every last ounce of talent out of players many other overlooked, reinvented the game multiple times.... I hate him for his greatness, but damn if I'm gonna deny him his flowers. It's a crap situation to be in right now, and like I started with, I understand why we're here. But we probably all should put a little more respect on his name and what he's done rather then chalking up a 30 year GOAT contending career to Brady, a weak division, and a few poor drafts. Ok I have to go wash my mouth out now, and will return to another decade of declining to ever say nice things about Brady/Bill/the Patriots.

im sorry but the crappy division and brady absolutely aided his numbers. you cant talk me out of that

I think he acknowledged those factors.

But Bill did a lot of very good and innovative things with this team beyond such an over simplification as that.

I think Bill has always been more of a defensive minded coach and he was able to develop schemes that were unique that got the best out of defensive players skill sets. The defense was able to transform itself on a weekly basis to take away what opponents did best with such innovations and personnel groupings to match these plans.

They consistently were one of the best running teams in the league while usually using some form of RBBC. Instead of RBBC being a liability it became a strength that had built in counters for how teams would try to defend against it and could adjust to opposing defenses.

The spread passing game as mentioned caused Wes Welker and then Edelmans abilities to be maximized. For the most part the Patriots haven't been good at drafting WR talent the entire time Bill has been there, but they were able to get more out of free agent WR than those players had done with their former teams.

There are too many good things they have done than just have Brady. The weakness of the division doesn’t matter much in my view when the Patriots were dominating all the other divisions too. For a long time the only games they would lose were to other top level super bowl caliber teams, and they won a lot of those games too. The league was weak compared to the Patriots for decades, not just the AFC East.

the weak division allowed them to have home playoff games every year. most of the time home field throughout. very similar to whats going on in KC right now. that helps a ton

Not only that, the other 3 teams in the AFC East didn't have a franchise QB for 20 years while the Pats had Brady. Imagine it was Josh Allen, Tua, and Rodgers. In an alternate universe where the Pats didn't draft Brady, Belichick probably never wins a single Superbowl with them and has a similar career arc to his Cleveland days.

Funny but I remember getting into a lot of arguments with those who said Brady was nothing more than an over-rated system QB during those first 3 championships.

I know right. Imagine you get to play in a division where you get the best QB of all time and the next best QB is your backup. That's how it was for years in the AFC East. No other division was that QB poor during those 2 decades not even the NFC North with Rodgers.

I don't know Christian Ponder was pretty bad.

The Lions did have Stafford though.

Just saying the Vikings and Bears have had some pretty bad QB who could contend with any teams terrible starting QBs.

 

[Godsbrother]

Belichick is a great coach but I think the Pats did the right thing by moving on. It was pretty clear he wasn't going to be turning that franchise around anytime soon.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

I understand why we are where we are right now with Belichick, and make no mistake, I hated the Patriots to the point where it would effect my gambling strategy for a number of years (bet on them to win because then I either made money or would gladly "pay" to watch them lose). But I do hate this is where the conversation is at right now. Really wish he would walk away and we can move the conversation to recognizing him as a top 5 coach of all time in the NFL. Not that many of the points made in this thread aren't true and valid. But some lack nuance, and many err by omission. Anarchy may be a "homer", though I think he can be equally tough on his team and view them without rose colored glasses. And I appreciate his push back against some of the blanket statements that just aren't true.

Waldman and FBG own Adam Harstad had a terrific pod last week discussing more of the minutiae and looking at his career as a whole rather than these past couple years. Probably one of the biggest takeaways for me was just the poor/unlucky circumstance of Belichick's decline coinciding with Brady leaving the team. While it can create the narrative that Brady "carried" him, or that he wouldn't have been viewed as a top coach of all time without him; they do a fantastic job detailing how that couldn't be further from the case. For the better part of 20 years the entire league found both small and large scale success by borrowing, if not straight up copying, what Bill did. At this point, it does feel that the league has passed him by. It does for all the greats. Bill Walsh burned bright, but burned fast, and is still considered one of the best. Tom Landry got fired. Steelers let Chuck Noll die on vine and kept him years after he should have been let go. The longevity of Belichick combined with his wins over .500 is unrivaled by all but Halas and Shula. And while he would never be considered a great GM, I think there was a time where he was above average at least. He was a pro at trading back and acquiring later round picks, casting a wider net and catching his players that way. He also definitely had an eye for talent picking up cast offs who were written off or tagged as past their prime and able to turn them into gold. While its obvious WR was a weak spot, I'd argue there was a point in time he was one of the best with RBs. Jets cut Danny Woodhead a game into the season, didn't even want him on the roster, and Bill scooped him and got 1k yds from him immediately. And Gronk himself will tell you Belichick helped make him the greatest TE of all time not only with how he was initially employed in 12 personnel (at a time when the offense didn't even need to change it was already successful), but then when he reinvented TE usage and started running Gronk down the seem and pushing him down for those long explosive plays where no one could bring him down as he was already going full steam and the only defenders in the area were DBs 40+ lbs lighter than him.

Did he benefit from being in a poor division? Sure. The same way Brady did, but yet I rarely hear that as a knock against him. Did he benefit from Brady? Sure. Find me a HOF coach who didn't have their best years paired with a HOF QB. Shula Unitas. Landry Staubach. Lombardi Starr. It's an supporting factor. Not the reason. When did Brady really explode and start becoming the star of the show? 2007? 2008? Didn't that also happen to coincide with when Belichick basically reinvented NFL offenses bringing the shotgun spread in? At a time when other teams were running it maybe 20% of the time and he made it their base formation. And then 4-5 years later, every single other team in the league was doing it 80%+ of the time. And Brady took off those years.

He was a guru, excellent with both offensive and defensive schemes, able to squeeze every last ounce of talent out of players many other overlooked, reinvented the game multiple times.... I hate him for his greatness, but damn if I'm gonna deny him his flowers. It's a crap situation to be in right now, and like I started with, I understand why we're here. But we probably all should put a little more respect on his name and what he's done rather then chalking up a 30 year GOAT contending career to Brady, a weak division, and a few poor drafts. Ok I have to go wash my mouth out now, and will return to another decade of declining to ever say nice things about Brady/Bill/the Patriots.

im sorry but the crappy division and brady absolutely aided his numbers. you cant talk me out of that

I think he acknowledged those factors.

But Bill did a lot of very good and innovative things with this team beyond such an over simplification as that.

I think Bill has always been more of a defensive minded coach and he was able to develop schemes that were unique that got the best out of defensive players skill sets. The defense was able to transform itself on a weekly basis to take away what opponents did best with such innovations and personnel groupings to match these plans.

They consistently were one of the best running teams in the league while usually using some form of RBBC. Instead of RBBC being a liability it became a strength that had built in counters for how teams would try to defend against it and could adjust to opposing defenses.

The spread passing game as mentioned caused Wes Welker and then Edelmans abilities to be maximized. For the most part the Patriots haven't been good at drafting WR talent the entire time Bill has been there, but they were able to get more out of free agent WR than those players had done with their former teams.

There are too many good things they have done than just have Brady. The weakness of the division doesn’t matter much in my view when the Patriots were dominating all the other divisions too. For a long time the only games they would lose were to other top level super bowl caliber teams, and they won a lot of those games too. The league was weak compared to the Patriots for decades, not just the AFC East.

the weak division allowed them to have home playoff games every year. most of the time home field throughout. very similar to whats going on in KC right now. that helps a ton

Not only that, the other 3 teams in the AFC East didn't have a franchise QB for 20 years while the Pats had Brady. Imagine it was Josh Allen, Tua, and Rodgers. In an alternate universe where the Pats didn't draft Brady, Belichick probably never wins a single Superbowl with them and has a similar career arc to his Cleveland days.

Funny but I remember getting into a lot of arguments with those who said Brady was nothing more than an over-rated system QB during those first 3 championships.

I know right. Imagine you get to play in a division where you get the best QB of all time and the next best QB is your backup. That's how it was for years in the AFC East. No other division was that QB poor during those 2 decades not even the NFC North with Rodgers.

are you talking about the 80's Niners?

 

[Boston]

I understand why we are where we are right now with Belichick, and make no mistake, I hated the Patriots to the point where it would effect my gambling strategy for a number of years (bet on them to win because then I either made money or would gladly "pay" to watch them lose). But I do hate this is where the conversation is at right now. Really wish he would walk away and we can move the conversation to recognizing him as a top 5 coach of all time in the NFL. Not that many of the points made in this thread aren't true and valid. But some lack nuance, and many err by omission. Anarchy may be a "homer", though I think he can be equally tough on his team and view them without rose colored glasses. And I appreciate his push back against some of the blanket statements that just aren't true.

Waldman and FBG own Adam Harstad had a terrific pod last week discussing more of the minutiae and looking at his career as a whole rather than these past couple years. Probably one of the biggest takeaways for me was just the poor/unlucky circumstance of Belichick's decline coinciding with Brady leaving the team. While it can create the narrative that Brady "carried" him, or that he wouldn't have been viewed as a top coach of all time without him; they do a fantastic job detailing how that couldn't be further from the case. For the better part of 20 years the entire league found both small and large scale success by borrowing, if not straight up copying, what Bill did. At this point, it does feel that the league has passed him by. It does for all the greats. Bill Walsh burned bright, but burned fast, and is still considered one of the best. Tom Landry got fired. Steelers let Chuck Noll die on vine and kept him years after he should have been let go. The longevity of Belichick combined with his wins over .500 is unrivaled by all but Halas and Shula. And while he would never be considered a great GM, I think there was a time where he was above average at least. He was a pro at trading back and acquiring later round picks, casting a wider net and catching his players that way. He also definitely had an eye for talent picking up cast offs who were written off or tagged as past their prime and able to turn them into gold. While its obvious WR was a weak spot, I'd argue there was a point in time he was one of the best with RBs. Jets cut Danny Woodhead a game into the season, didn't even want him on the roster, and Bill scooped him and got 1k yds from him immediately. And Gronk himself will tell you Belichick helped make him the greatest TE of all time not only with how he was initially employed in 12 personnel (at a time when the offense didn't even need to change it was already successful), but then when he reinvented TE usage and started running Gronk down the seem and pushing him down for those long explosive plays where no one could bring him down as he was already going full steam and the only defenders in the area were DBs 40+ lbs lighter than him.

Did he benefit from being in a poor division? Sure. The same way Brady did, but yet I rarely hear that as a knock against him. Did he benefit from Brady? Sure. Find me a HOF coach who didn't have their best years paired with a HOF QB. Shula Unitas. Landry Staubach. Lombardi Starr. It's an supporting factor. Not the reason. When did Brady really explode and start becoming the star of the show? 2007? 2008? Didn't that also happen to coincide with when Belichick basically reinvented NFL offenses bringing the shotgun spread in? At a time when other teams were running it maybe 20% of the time and he made it their base formation. And then 4-5 years later, every single other team in the league was doing it 80%+ of the time. And Brady took off those years.

He was a guru, excellent with both offensive and defensive schemes, able to squeeze every last ounce of talent out of players many other overlooked, reinvented the game multiple times.... I hate him for his greatness, but damn if I'm gonna deny him his flowers. It's a crap situation to be in right now, and like I started with, I understand why we're here. But we probably all should put a little more respect on his name and what he's done rather then chalking up a 30 year GOAT contending career to Brady, a weak division, and a few poor drafts. Ok I have to go wash my mouth out now, and will return to another decade of declining to ever say nice things about Brady/Bill/the Patriots.

im sorry but the crappy division and brady absolutely aided his numbers. you cant talk me out of that

I think he acknowledged those factors.

But Bill did a lot of very good and innovative things with this team beyond such an over simplification as that.

I think Bill has always been more of a defensive minded coach and he was able to develop schemes that were unique that got the best out of defensive players skill sets. The defense was able to transform itself on a weekly basis to take away what opponents did best with such innovations and personnel groupings to match these plans.

They consistently were one of the best running teams in the league while usually using some form of RBBC. Instead of RBBC being a liability it became a strength that had built in counters for how teams would try to defend against it and could adjust to opposing defenses.

The spread passing game as mentioned caused Wes Welker and then Edelmans abilities to be maximized. For the most part the Patriots haven't been good at drafting WR talent the entire time Bill has been there, but they were able to get more out of free agent WR than those players had done with their former teams.

There are too many good things they have done than just have Brady. The weakness of the division doesn’t matter much in my view when the Patriots were dominating all the other divisions too. For a long time the only games they would lose were to other top level super bowl caliber teams, and they won a lot of those games too. The league was weak compared to the Patriots for decades, not just the AFC East.

the weak division allowed them to have home playoff games every year. most of the time home field throughout. very similar to whats going on in KC right now. that helps a ton

Not only that, the other 3 teams in the AFC East didn't have a franchise QB for 20 years while the Pats had Brady. Imagine it was Josh Allen, Tua, and Rodgers. In an alternate universe where the Pats didn't draft Brady, Belichick probably never wins a single Superbowl with them and has a similar career arc to his Cleveland days.

Funny but I remember getting into a lot of arguments with those who said Brady was nothing more than an over-rated system QB during those first 3 championships.

I know right. Imagine you get to play in a division where you get the best QB of all time and the next best QB is your backup. That's how it was for years in the AFC East. No other division was that QB poor during those 2 decades not even the NFC North with Rodgers.

That was 6 games a year...I may be wrong but I don't remember them making the playoffs with an 8-8 record.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

For the "It was all Brady" contingent, almost all great coaches won with the benefit of having a HOF QB. Here are all the coaches that have won multiple SBs:

Noll - 4 (Bradshaw)
Walsh -3 (Montana)
Lombardi - 2 (Starr)
Shula - 2 (Griese)
Reid - 2 (Mahomes)
Landry - 2 (Staubach)
Coughlin - 2 (Eli)
Shanahan - 2 (Elway)
Seifert - 2 (Montana, Young)
Johnson - 2 (Aikman)

There have been only 3 coaches with multiple SB wins that didn't have a HOF QB:

Gibbs - 3 (Theisman, Williams, Rypien)
Parcells - 2 (Simms, Hostetler)
Flores - 2 (Plunkett)

(As a side note, how Gibbs won with those three guys should be considered a much bigger deal than people really talk about.)

It's pretty clear that the Brady and BB pairing yielded great results. It's not out of the range of outcomes that had Drew Bledsoe stayed healthy that BB could have been let go and NE could still be looking for their first ring . . . but it's also possible Brady could have ended up selling life insurance and never ended up as a starter in the league.

Been beating this drum forever...and for The Tuna he did it with the greatest defensive player of all time...what Gibbs did was truly amazing.

A few of those guys are HOFers because they won Super Bowls. Bradshaw and Aikman, and maybe even Eli, have terrible numbers that would get them into the HOF if not for the Super Bowls. So to say that coaches won with HOF QBs may be a tad shortsighted.

Actually it is not....both Aikman and Bradshaw were #1 picks who won 7 Super Bowls and won 3 Super Bowl MVPs between them...nothing tad shortsighted about that.

Again, I am saying if you took away their super bowls, they are not HOFers. Aikman's threw nearly as many INTs in his career than TDs. was never All Pro, and finished in the top 5 for MVP voting exactly one time. Bradshaw also threw nearly as many INTs than he did TDs for his career, but he actually did win an MVP. Most of his seasons he was well below average. The only thing that Eli ever led the NFL in any of the seasons he played was INTs, and never received a single vote for MVP. Just because someone won a Super Bowl does not make them an elite QB that can win football games, regardless of coaching.

 

[SoBeDad]

He is 14 behind him if you include the playoffs.

Thanks. There is no I in team. Chasing a personal record doesn't seem like the kind of thing a franchise would endorse, unless they're winning or on an upward path. BB knows defense, but isn't the NFL moving toward head coaches who know offense? As a GM, especially for players on offense, he's been way below average recently. I'd hire him in a second as DC, but that's not what BB wants.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

For the "It was all Brady" contingent, almost all great coaches won with the benefit of having a HOF QB. Here are all the coaches that have won multiple SBs:

Noll - 4 (Bradshaw)
Walsh -3 (Montana)
Lombardi - 2 (Starr)
Shula - 2 (Griese)
Reid - 2 (Mahomes)
Landry - 2 (Staubach)
Coughlin - 2 (Eli)
Shanahan - 2 (Elway)
Seifert - 2 (Montana, Young)
Johnson - 2 (Aikman)

There have been only 3 coaches with multiple SB wins that didn't have a HOF QB:

Gibbs - 3 (Theisman, Williams, Rypien)
Parcells - 2 (Simms, Hostetler)
Flores - 2 (Plunkett)

(As a side note, how Gibbs won with those three guys should be considered a much bigger deal than people really talk about.)

It's pretty clear that the Brady and BB pairing yielded great results. It's not out of the range of outcomes that had Drew Bledsoe stayed healthy that BB could have been let go and NE could still be looking for their first ring . . . but it's also possible Brady could have ended up selling life insurance and never ended up as a starter in the league.

I don't get how anyone who knows much about Brady could say the bolded part? Brady outplayed Bledsoe year one and it had zero to do with BB, no matter where the guy went his work ethic, determination and talent wouldn't have gone away. Remember SF passed on him in the draft so he ended up going to that "QB haven" in NE Would not argue Brady doesn't win 7 SBs without BB, but to suggest he doesn't make it at all in the NFL without BB is ridiculous imho.

Play things out differently. Bledsoe doesn’t get hurt and the 2001 Pats end up at 6-10. BB gets fired. They stick with Bledsoe as the face of the franchise. Brady hangs around as a backup and never gets a chance to start in NE.

Now let’s go fork in the road. Say he got picked up by a bottom feeder. Would he have had much success as a backup on CLE, CIN, or DET? Now go the other extreme. Suppose he got picked up as a backup in IND, PIT, SD, ATL, or NYG?

We’ll never know what might have happened, but it’s not a crazy notion that Brady may only have hung around for a few seasons and never got a legit chance to start on a contending team.

Respectfully disagree, if Bledsoe doesn't get hurt in 2000, BB isn't getting fired in his 2nd year. BB goes into year 3 knowing his job is on the line and in all likelihood goes with Brady right out of camp (as he has suggested he should have done the prior year). Brady was better then Bledsoe day one and never would have "hung around" as his backup. Your scenario only works if Brady wasn't a better qb from the qit go.

So fork in the road Brady goes to some other team, if its a bottom feeder he is starting and its clear to the world the guy is at least a good QB. If its a contender and he is backup he bides his time and gets his chance there or somewhere else. People talk about Brady as if he couldn't have made it in the nfl without BB and the Patriots when the opposite is more true imo.

It Bledsoe doesn't get hurt and Patriots continue to lose with him the following year as they surely would have THEN BB is fired and nobody is beating down his door to be their HC. It could take years for him to get another opportunity as a HC. Much more likely scenario than Brady not becoming a successful starter somewhere else.

 

[Boston]

He is 14 behind him if you include the playoffs.

Thanks. There is no I in team. Chasing a personal record doesn't seem like the kind of thing a franchise would endorse, unless they're winning or on an upward path. BB knows defense, but isn't the NFL moving toward head coaches who know offense? As a GM, especially for players on offense, he's been way below average recently. I'd hire him in a second as DC, but that's not what BB wants.

Someone will hire him because of who he is...I do still think he can still coach but he is a disaster as a GM...anyone who gives him full control is lying to themselves.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I understand why we are where we are right now with Belichick, and make no mistake, I hated the Patriots to the point where it would effect my gambling strategy for a number of years (bet on them to win because then I either made money or would gladly "pay" to watch them lose). But I do hate this is where the conversation is at right now. Really wish he would walk away and we can move the conversation to recognizing him as a top 5 coach of all time in the NFL. Not that many of the points made in this thread aren't true and valid. But some lack nuance, and many err by omission. Anarchy may be a "homer", though I think he can be equally tough on his team and view them without rose colored glasses. And I appreciate his push back against some of the blanket statements that just aren't true.

Waldman and FBG own Adam Harstad had a terrific pod last week discussing more of the minutiae and looking at his career as a whole rather than these past couple years. Probably one of the biggest takeaways for me was just the poor/unlucky circumstance of Belichick's decline coinciding with Brady leaving the team. While it can create the narrative that Brady "carried" him, or that he wouldn't have been viewed as a top coach of all time without him; they do a fantastic job detailing how that couldn't be further from the case. For the better part of 20 years the entire league found both small and large scale success by borrowing, if not straight up copying, what Bill did. At this point, it does feel that the league has passed him by. It does for all the greats. Bill Walsh burned bright, but burned fast, and is still considered one of the best. Tom Landry got fired. Steelers let Chuck Noll die on vine and kept him years after he should have been let go. The longevity of Belichick combined with his wins over .500 is unrivaled by all but Halas and Shula. And while he would never be considered a great GM, I think there was a time where he was above average at least. He was a pro at trading back and acquiring later round picks, casting a wider net and catching his players that way. He also definitely had an eye for talent picking up cast offs who were written off or tagged as past their prime and able to turn them into gold. While its obvious WR was a weak spot, I'd argue there was a point in time he was one of the best with RBs. Jets cut Danny Woodhead a game into the season, didn't even want him on the roster, and Bill scooped him and got 1k yds from him immediately. And Gronk himself will tell you Belichick helped make him the greatest TE of all time not only with how he was initially employed in 12 personnel (at a time when the offense didn't even need to change it was already successful), but then when he reinvented TE usage and started running Gronk down the seem and pushing him down for those long explosive plays where no one could bring him down as he was already going full steam and the only defenders in the area were DBs 40+ lbs lighter than him.

Did he benefit from being in a poor division? Sure. The same way Brady did, but yet I rarely hear that as a knock against him. Did he benefit from Brady? Sure. Find me a HOF coach who didn't have their best years paired with a HOF QB. Shula Unitas. Landry Staubach. Lombardi Starr. It's an supporting factor. Not the reason. When did Brady really explode and start becoming the star of the show? 2007? 2008? Didn't that also happen to coincide with when Belichick basically reinvented NFL offenses bringing the shotgun spread in? At a time when other teams were running it maybe 20% of the time and he made it their base formation. And then 4-5 years later, every single other team in the league was doing it 80%+ of the time. And Brady took off those years.

He was a guru, excellent with both offensive and defensive schemes, able to squeeze every last ounce of talent out of players many other overlooked, reinvented the game multiple times.... I hate him for his greatness, but damn if I'm gonna deny him his flowers. It's a crap situation to be in right now, and like I started with, I understand why we're here. But we probably all should put a little more respect on his name and what he's done rather then chalking up a 30 year GOAT contending career to Brady, a weak division, and a few poor drafts. Ok I have to go wash my mouth out now, and will return to another decade of declining to ever say nice things about Brady/Bill/the Patriots.

im sorry but the crappy division and brady absolutely aided his numbers. you cant talk me out of that

I think he acknowledged those factors.

But Bill did a lot of very good and innovative things with this team beyond such an over simplification as that.

I think Bill has always been more of a defensive minded coach and he was able to develop schemes that were unique that got the best out of defensive players skill sets. The defense was able to transform itself on a weekly basis to take away what opponents did best with such innovations and personnel groupings to match these plans.

They consistently were one of the best running teams in the league while usually using some form of RBBC. Instead of RBBC being a liability it became a strength that had built in counters for how teams would try to defend against it and could adjust to opposing defenses.

The spread passing game as mentioned caused Wes Welker and then Edelmans abilities to be maximized. For the most part the Patriots haven't been good at drafting WR talent the entire time Bill has been there, but they were able to get more out of free agent WR than those players had done with their former teams.

There are too many good things they have done than just have Brady. The weakness of the division doesn’t matter much in my view when the Patriots were dominating all the other divisions too. For a long time the only games they would lose were to other top level super bowl caliber teams, and they won a lot of those games too. The league was weak compared to the Patriots for decades, not just the AFC East.

the weak division allowed them to have home playoff games every year. most of the time home field throughout. very similar to whats going on in KC right now. that helps a ton

Not only that, the other 3 teams in the AFC East didn't have a franchise QB for 20 years while the Pats had Brady. Imagine it was Josh Allen, Tua, and Rodgers. In an alternate universe where the Pats didn't draft Brady, Belichick probably never wins a single Superbowl with them and has a similar career arc to his Cleveland days.

Funny but I remember getting into a lot of arguments with those who said Brady was nothing more than an over-rated system QB during those first 3 championships.

I know right. Imagine you get to play in a division where you get the best QB of all time and the next best QB is your backup. That's how it was for years in the AFC East. No other division was that QB poor during those 2 decades not even the NFC North with Rodgers.

are you talking about the 80's Niners?

Post salary cap era.

 

[Boston]

For the "It was all Brady" contingent, almost all great coaches won with the benefit of having a HOF QB. Here are all the coaches that have won multiple SBs:

Noll - 4 (Bradshaw)
Walsh -3 (Montana)
Lombardi - 2 (Starr)
Shula - 2 (Griese)
Reid - 2 (Mahomes)
Landry - 2 (Staubach)
Coughlin - 2 (Eli)
Shanahan - 2 (Elway)
Seifert - 2 (Montana, Young)
Johnson - 2 (Aikman)

There have been only 3 coaches with multiple SB wins that didn't have a HOF QB:

Gibbs - 3 (Theisman, Williams, Rypien)
Parcells - 2 (Simms, Hostetler)
Flores - 2 (Plunkett)

(As a side note, how Gibbs won with those three guys should be considered a much bigger deal than people really talk about.)

It's pretty clear that the Brady and BB pairing yielded great results. It's not out of the range of outcomes that had Drew Bledsoe stayed healthy that BB could have been let go and NE could still be looking for their first ring . . . but it's also possible Brady could have ended up selling life insurance and never ended up as a starter in the league.

Been beating this drum forever...and for The Tuna he did it with the greatest defensive player of all time...what Gibbs did was truly amazing.

A few of those guys are HOFers because they won Super Bowls. Bradshaw and Aikman, and maybe even Eli, have terrible numbers that would get them into the HOF if not for the Super Bowls. So to say that coaches won with HOF QBs may be a tad shortsighted.

Actually it is not....both Aikman and Bradshaw were #1 picks who won 7 Super Bowls and won 3 Super Bowl MVPs between them...nothing tad shortsighted about that.

Again, I am saying if you took away their super bowls, they are not HOFers. Aikman's threw nearly as many INTs in his career than TDs. was never All Pro, and finished in the top 5 for MVP voting exactly one time. Bradshaw also threw nearly as many INTs than he did TDs for his career, but he actually did win an MVP. Most of his seasons he was well below average. The only thing that Eli ever led the NFL in any of the seasons he played was INTs, and never received a single vote for MVP. Just because someone won a Super Bowl does not make them an elite QB that can win football games, regardless of coaching.

OK...just don't see the need to pretend that Super Bowls or all the playoff games won to win them don't count.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

For the "It was all Brady" contingent, almost all great coaches won with the benefit of having a HOF QB. Here are all the coaches that have won multiple SBs:

Noll - 4 (Bradshaw)
Walsh -3 (Montana)
Lombardi - 2 (Starr)
Shula - 2 (Griese)
Reid - 2 (Mahomes)
Landry - 2 (Staubach)
Coughlin - 2 (Eli)
Shanahan - 2 (Elway)
Seifert - 2 (Montana, Young)
Johnson - 2 (Aikman)

There have been only 3 coaches with multiple SB wins that didn't have a HOF QB:

Gibbs - 3 (Theisman, Williams, Rypien)
Parcells - 2 (Simms, Hostetler)
Flores - 2 (Plunkett)

(As a side note, how Gibbs won with those three guys should be considered a much bigger deal than people really talk about.)

It's pretty clear that the Brady and BB pairing yielded great results. It's not out of the range of outcomes that had Drew Bledsoe stayed healthy that BB could have been let go and NE could still be looking for their first ring . . . but it's also possible Brady could have ended up selling life insurance and never ended up as a starter in the league.

I don't get how anyone who knows much about Brady could say the bolded part? Brady outplayed Bledsoe year one and it had zero to do with BB, no matter where the guy went his work ethic, determination and talent wouldn't have gone away. Remember SF passed on him in the draft so he ended up going to that "QB haven" in NE Would not argue Brady doesn't win 7 SBs without BB, but to suggest he doesn't make it at all in the NFL without BB is ridiculous imho.

Those 1st 3 Super Bowls, Brady is a shell of what he turns into when Randy Moss joins the team.
His last 3-4 SB wins, especially with Tampa Bay had as much to do with surrounding cast as anything. but Brady the CEO, nobody can argue much with that.
I do credit BB a LOT for the first Dyansty run by the Patriots.
I don't know of any other player-coach that had a dynasty run quite like these two.

I'm not taking sides here, enjoy both of your posts and insight/analysis/thoughts into what is happening up in Foxsboro
Thanks!

Agree it is the combo that made their success so special and impossible to split the credit for what the 2 of them did together. Just don't understand with everything we know about Brady now, why anyone would think he wouldn't have had at least some success somewhere else in the NFL? Mental, Physical, the guy had pretty much everything you need for a winning franchise qb and little chance he just gives up before establishing himself somewhere.

 

[rockaction]

Brady leaving and the Patriots crumbling was probably the greatest expository essay anybody could have written in the history of sport.

Who do you think was more important to the Patriots' success?

Asked and answered definitively to anybody but the biggest of homers.

 

[Boston]

Brady leaving and the Patriots crumbling was probably the greatest expository essay anybody could have written in the history of sport.

Who do you think was more important to the Patriots' success?

Asked and answered definitively to anybody but the biggest of homers.

First 10 years BB...second 10 years Brady.

 

[Anarchy99]

There is no defending BB's drafting record the past 5-10 years in terms of guys selected near the top of the draft, but this upcoming draft will be the first time in many years that NE will have a Top 10 draft pick. From 2000-2023, here were the number of Top 10 draft picks per franchise.

JAC - 17
DET - 14
CLE - 13
ARI - 12
NYJ - 12
ATL - 10
CIN - 10
LVR - 10
SFO - 10
CAR - 9
HOU - 9
WAS - 9
BUF - 8
CHI - 8
NYG - 8
LAR - 7
MIA - 7
TBB - 7
TEN - 7
KCC - 6
LAC - 6
MIN - 6
DAL - 5
PHI - 5
SEA - 5
BAL - 4
DEN - 3
GBP - 3
IND - 3
NOS - 3
NEP - 2
PIT - 2

The only Top 10 picks they had were used on Mayo and Seymour. It's amazing some of the teams over the past 20+ years have remained so competitive without the aid of many Top 10 picks. It's equally amazing at how little mediocre teams at the top of this list have been over an extended stretch.

 

[Boston]

Giardi with some great x's and o's moments from BB...the 2003 game against Indy is probably my favorite:

• The first Super Bowl. Deciding that the best chance to stop the "Greatest Show of Turf" was to beat the holy hell out of Marshall Faulk. Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, and whoever else had a chance were told explicitly to concentrate on hitting Faulk first, then rushing the passer or dropping into the zones. He finished with 130 total yards but just 17 receiving (and still hasn't gotten over it) and the Pats began their dynastic run.
• The 2003 AFC title game against the Colts. Rodney Harrison lining up in press coverage against Marvin Harrison, with Ty Law playing over the top of him. What in the wide world of sports? It was just one of many looks Belichick had his defense use, getting so physical with Indy's skilled receivers that then GM Bill Polian used it as an example to change the game's rules and make it harder and harder to play "D."
• 2015 AFC Playoffs against the Ravens. That was the infamous "trick" play game, where the Pats had only four offensive linemen on the field for a number of plays, fooling Baltimore and helping to erase a pair of 14-point deficit. It also led to John Harbaugh losing his mind on the sideline and Tom Brady saying afterward, "Learn the rulebook."
• 2018 AFC title game in Kansas City. The Chiefs hadn't been shut out in any half all season. The Pats did that in the first half, using a young Jon Jones head-up on Tyreek Hill but having Devin McCourty almost always on Hill's side, eliminating the big play ability early. They also put a corner on Travis Kelce. No one operated that way or had success when they did until then. The Chiefs had 32 yards at the half, and Patrick Mahomes was sacked thrice for 43 yards.
• The last Super Bowl win was 13-3 over the Rams. Sean McVay schemed an offense led by Jared Goff to average 30 points per game. Yet that high-powered unit was flummoxed by the Pats, among other things, taking away the crossing routes that made that group so dynamic. "Don't be afraid to use a good idea just because it's unconventional and just because someone else hasn't done it," Belichick once said. "If you believe it's a good idea, then don't be afraid to use it."

 

[Insomniac]

For the "It was all Brady" contingent, almost all great coaches won with the benefit of having a HOF QB. Here are all the coaches that have won multiple SBs:

Noll - 4 (Bradshaw)
Walsh -3 (Montana)
Lombardi - 2 (Starr)
Shula - 2 (Griese)
Reid - 2 (Mahomes)
Landry - 2 (Staubach)
Coughlin - 2 (Eli)
Shanahan - 2 (Elway)
Seifert - 2 (Montana, Young)
Johnson - 2 (Aikman)

There have been only 3 coaches with multiple SB wins that didn't have a HOF QB:

Gibbs - 3 (Theisman, Williams, Rypien)
Parcells - 2 (Simms, Hostetler)
Flores - 2 (Plunkett)

(As a side note, how Gibbs won with those three guys should be considered a much bigger deal than people really talk about.)

It's pretty clear that the Brady and BB pairing yielded great results. It's not out of the range of outcomes that had Drew Bledsoe stayed healthy that BB could have been let go and NE could still be looking for their first ring . . . but it's also possible Brady could have ended up selling life insurance and never ended up as a starter in the league.

Gibbs was one of the greatest coaches to ever coach in the NFL. Not only 3 different starting QBs, but 3 totally different offenses with different starting RBs too. Gibbs just got the best out of every player he coached.

Until he came back to coaching in the 2000s. Gibbs is one of the greatest but the success of any coach greatly depends on the quality of the players on the roster. It's not just the QB. The 80's to early 90s Washington teams had a lot of good to great players. When Gibbs returned to coaching the roster wasn't nearly as good.

 

[Boston]

Jerry Thornton nails it:

In the End, GM Bill Cost HC Bill His Job

MediaNews Group/Boston Herald via Getty Images. Getty Images.Bill Belichick's nearly quarter-century tenure in Foxboro was (I can't believe I'm using past tense after all this time) was without equal...

www.barstoolsports.com

First of all...love this line:

Even with the failure of the post-Brady years, when the Dynasty entered its Fat Elvis stage, the coach kept commanding respect and got his players to give max effort:

This sums a lot up:

At a time where every three to four years every player on his roster was able to jump ship and opposing teams were paying a premium for winners, GM Bill was always able to find replacements that HC Bill would coach up, creating a perpetual motion victory machine.

That is, until he no longer did. That ultimately was his undoing.

Now at this point, let me interrupt the flow of thought because I know what far too many of you are thinking. "It was all Tom Brady all along." Which is not only lazy, shallow, illogical, and discredits everything this Dynasty accomplished, it's being ignorant of history. It pretends that all those great defenses (12 times on Belichick's watch the Pats finished Top 7 in points allowed, and as recently as 2021 they gave up the 2nd fewest) and superlative special teams. As well as the steady, consistent offensive lines and solid running games he always managed to put together. Yes, Brady had a positive effect on all of those aspects. But he didn't shut down The Greatest Show on Turf, blow out the tires on the Colts' offense in 2003-04, or keep the 2018 Rams (the 11th highest scoring attack in history to that point) out of the end zone and even the red zone in Super Bowl LIII. That was HC Bill.

 

[pinkstapler]

For the "It was all Brady" contingent, almost all great coaches won with the benefit of having a HOF QB. Here are all the coaches that have won multiple SBs:

Noll - 4 (Bradshaw)
Walsh -3 (Montana)
Lombardi - 2 (Starr)
Shula - 2 (Griese)
Reid - 2 (Mahomes)
Landry - 2 (Staubach)
Coughlin - 2 (Eli)
Shanahan - 2 (Elway)
Seifert - 2 (Montana, Young)
Johnson - 2 (Aikman)

There have been only 3 coaches with multiple SB wins that didn't have a HOF QB:

Gibbs - 3 (Theisman, Williams, Rypien)
Parcells - 2 (Simms, Hostetler)
Flores - 2 (Plunkett)

(As a side note, how Gibbs won with those three guys should be considered a much bigger deal than people really talk about.)

It's pretty clear that the Brady and BB pairing yielded great results. It's not out of the range of outcomes that had Drew Bledsoe stayed healthy that BB could have been let go and NE could still be looking for their first ring . . . but it's also possible Brady could have ended up selling life insurance and never ended up as a starter in the league.

I don't get how anyone who knows much about Brady could say the bolded part? Brady outplayed Bledsoe year one and it had zero to do with BB, no matter where the guy went his work ethic, determination and talent wouldn't have gone away. Remember SF passed on him in the draft so he ended up going to that "QB haven" in NE Would not argue Brady doesn't win 7 SBs without BB, but to suggest he doesn't make it at all in the NFL without BB is ridiculous imho.

Play things out differently. Bledsoe doesn’t get hurt and the 2001 Pats end up at 6-10. BB gets fired. They stick with Bledsoe as the face of the franchise. Brady hangs around as a backup and never gets a chance to start in NE.

Now let’s go fork in the road. Say he got picked up by a bottom feeder. Would he have had much success as a backup on CLE, CIN, or DET? Now go the other extreme. Suppose he got picked up as a backup in IND, PIT, SD, ATL, or NYG?

We’ll never know what might have happened, but it’s not a crazy notion that Brady may only have hung around for a few seasons and never got a legit chance to start on a contending team.

Respectfully disagree, if Bledsoe doesn't get hurt in 2000, BB isn't getting fired in his 2nd year. BB goes into year 3 knowing his job is on the line and in all likelihood goes with Brady right out of camp (as he has suggested he should have done the prior year). Brady was better then Bledsoe day one and never would have "hung around" as his backup. Your scenario only works if Brady wasn't a better qb from the qit go.

So fork in the road Brady goes to some other team, if its a bottom feeder he is starting and its clear to the world the guy is at least a good QB. If its a contender and he is backup he bides his time and gets his chance there or somewhere else. People talk about Brady as if he couldn't have made it in the nfl without BB and the Patriots when the opposite is more true imo.

It Bledsoe doesn't get hurt and Patriots continue to lose with him the following year as they surely would have THEN BB is fired and nobody is beating down his door to be their HC. It could take years for him to get another opportunity as a HC. Much more likely scenario than Brady not becoming a successful starter somewhere else.

Totally agree with what I think is the main sentiment of your post; with or without BB TB would have eventually become an NFL starter, and likely went on to a very successful career regardless. I would push back a bit that Brady wouldn't have "hung around". Mainly because that was his mentality since his college days. He chose to go to Michigan over other schools despite being 7th!!! on the depth chart, and consciously made that decision. Not just in the moment, but for the following 730+ days until he finally worked his way into his chance to start. And even after that, still had to fight for the starting job again the following season and split touches into his senior year (IIRC). And then got taken in the 6th round of the draft. I don't think he was ever going to run away. I think he would have just kept using the shun as motivation until he got his shot. Again, like 80% of this thread, it's pure speculation and who knows. But looking at what he went through in college I'd think he'd have looked at leaving the organization as a weak move and going against his morals/mentality.

 

[jobarules]

Giardi with some great x's and o's moments from BB...the 2003 game against Indy is probably my favorite:

• The first Super Bowl. Deciding that the best chance to stop the "Greatest Show of Turf" was to beat the holy hell out of Marshall Faulk. Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, and whoever else had a chance were told explicitly to concentrate on hitting Faulk first, then rushing the passer or dropping into the zones. He finished with 130 total yards but just 17 receiving (and still hasn't gotten over it) and the Pats began their dynastic run.
• The 2003 AFC title game against the Colts. Rodney Harrison lining up in press coverage against Marvin Harrison, with Ty Law playing over the top of him. What in the wide world of sports? It was just one of many looks Belichick had his defense use, getting so physical with Indy's skilled receivers that then GM Bill Polian used it as an example to change the game's rules and make it harder and harder to play "D."
• 2015 AFC Playoffs against the Ravens. That was the infamous "trick" play game, where the Pats had only four offensive linemen on the field for a number of plays, fooling Baltimore and helping to erase a pair of 14-point deficit. It also led to John Harbaugh losing his mind on the sideline and Tom Brady saying afterward, "Learn the rulebook."
• 2018 AFC title game in Kansas City. The Chiefs hadn't been shut out in any half all season. The Pats did that in the first half, using a young Jon Jones head-up on Tyreek Hill but having Devin McCourty almost always on Hill's side, eliminating the big play ability early. They also put a corner on Travis Kelce. No one operated that way or had success when they did until then. The Chiefs had 32 yards at the half, and Patrick Mahomes was sacked thrice for 43 yards.
• The last Super Bowl win was 13-3 over the Rams. Sean McVay schemed an offense led by Jared Goff to average 30 points per game. Yet that high-powered unit was flummoxed by the Pats, among other things, taking away the crossing routes that made that group so dynamic. "Don't be afraid to use a good idea just because it's unconventional and just because someone else hasn't done it," Belichick once said. "If you believe it's a good idea, then don't be afraid to use it."

These are all defensive things. Bottom line, Belichek is a brilliant defensive mind that lucked into the greatest QB of all time to help win 7 Super Bowls.

 

[Boston]

Giardi with some great x's and o's moments from BB...the 2003 game against Indy is probably my favorite:

• The first Super Bowl. Deciding that the best chance to stop the "Greatest Show of Turf" was to beat the holy hell out of Marshall Faulk. Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, and whoever else had a chance were told explicitly to concentrate on hitting Faulk first, then rushing the passer or dropping into the zones. He finished with 130 total yards but just 17 receiving (and still hasn't gotten over it) and the Pats began their dynastic run.
• The 2003 AFC title game against the Colts. Rodney Harrison lining up in press coverage against Marvin Harrison, with Ty Law playing over the top of him. What in the wide world of sports? It was just one of many looks Belichick had his defense use, getting so physical with Indy's skilled receivers that then GM Bill Polian used it as an example to change the game's rules and make it harder and harder to play "D."
• 2015 AFC Playoffs against the Ravens. That was the infamous "trick" play game, where the Pats had only four offensive linemen on the field for a number of plays, fooling Baltimore and helping to erase a pair of 14-point deficit. It also led to John Harbaugh losing his mind on the sideline and Tom Brady saying afterward, "Learn the rulebook."
• 2018 AFC title game in Kansas City. The Chiefs hadn't been shut out in any half all season. The Pats did that in the first half, using a young Jon Jones head-up on Tyreek Hill but having Devin McCourty almost always on Hill's side, eliminating the big play ability early. They also put a corner on Travis Kelce. No one operated that way or had success when they did until then. The Chiefs had 32 yards at the half, and Patrick Mahomes was sacked thrice for 43 yards.
• The last Super Bowl win was 13-3 over the Rams. Sean McVay schemed an offense led by Jared Goff to average 30 points per game. Yet that high-powered unit was flummoxed by the Pats, among other things, taking away the crossing routes that made that group so dynamic. "Don't be afraid to use a good idea just because it's unconventional and just because someone else hasn't done it," Belichick once said. "If you believe it's a good idea, then don't be afraid to use it."

These are all defensive things. Bottom line, Belichek is a brilliant defensive mind that lucked into the greatest QB of all time to help win 7 Super Bowls.

No...it is so far from the bottomline...those first 3 titles do not come close to happening without BB...TB was not the greatest player of all time at that point...to think that is revisionist history to fit a narrative.

 

[massraider]

Bottom line, Belichek is a brilliant defensive mind that lucked into the greatest QB of all time to help win 7 Super Bowls.

I think the bottom line is that a lot of coaches had good QBs.

Only this coach won that many Super Bowls.

Like saying Joe Gibbs was lucky to have Bobby Beathard or Jimmy Johnson got lucky with the Herschel trade.

 

[GregR]

They also put a corner on Travis Kelce. No one operated that way or had success when they did until then.

"No one" is some hyperbole by the writer, as Kelce has been shut down by corners years before this. After he lit up Houston in a previous game with normal coverages, AJ Bouye then was moved to shadow him next time they played and pretty much shut Kelce down (34 yards), 2 years before this Patriots game. Which contributed to Bouye being a sought after free agent that offseason, incidentally.

But it does take having the right corner with attributes that will offset Kelce's advantages. Things like above average size, physicality and long arms all help a CB there.

 

[jobarules]

Giardi with some great x's and o's moments from BB...the 2003 game against Indy is probably my favorite:

• The first Super Bowl. Deciding that the best chance to stop the "Greatest Show of Turf" was to beat the holy hell out of Marshall Faulk. Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, and whoever else had a chance were told explicitly to concentrate on hitting Faulk first, then rushing the passer or dropping into the zones. He finished with 130 total yards but just 17 receiving (and still hasn't gotten over it) and the Pats began their dynastic run.
• The 2003 AFC title game against the Colts. Rodney Harrison lining up in press coverage against Marvin Harrison, with Ty Law playing over the top of him. What in the wide world of sports? It was just one of many looks Belichick had his defense use, getting so physical with Indy's skilled receivers that then GM Bill Polian used it as an example to change the game's rules and make it harder and harder to play "D."
• 2015 AFC Playoffs against the Ravens. That was the infamous "trick" play game, where the Pats had only four offensive linemen on the field for a number of plays, fooling Baltimore and helping to erase a pair of 14-point deficit. It also led to John Harbaugh losing his mind on the sideline and Tom Brady saying afterward, "Learn the rulebook."
• 2018 AFC title game in Kansas City. The Chiefs hadn't been shut out in any half all season. The Pats did that in the first half, using a young Jon Jones head-up on Tyreek Hill but having Devin McCourty almost always on Hill's side, eliminating the big play ability early. They also put a corner on Travis Kelce. No one operated that way or had success when they did until then. The Chiefs had 32 yards at the half, and Patrick Mahomes was sacked thrice for 43 yards.
• The last Super Bowl win was 13-3 over the Rams. Sean McVay schemed an offense led by Jared Goff to average 30 points per game. Yet that high-powered unit was flummoxed by the Pats, among other things, taking away the crossing routes that made that group so dynamic. "Don't be afraid to use a good idea just because it's unconventional and just because someone else hasn't done it," Belichick once said. "If you believe it's a good idea, then don't be afraid to use it."

These are all defensive things. Bottom line, Belichek is a brilliant defensive mind that lucked into the greatest QB of all time to help win 7 Super Bowls.

No...it is so far from the bottomline...those first 3 titles do not come close to happening without BB...TB was not the greatest player of all time at that point...to think that is revisionist history to fit a narrative.

Bottom line, Belichek is a brilliant defensive mind that lucked into the greatest QB of all time to help win 7 Super Bowls.

I think the bottom line is that a lot of coaches had good QBs.

Only this coach won that many Super Bowls.

Like saying Joe Gibbs was lucky to have Bobby Beathard or Jimmy Johnson got lucky with the Herschel trade.

I wasn't criticizing bellichek

I'm saying it was the perfect match between one of the best defensive minds of all time and one of the best offensive players of all time.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

It's amazing some of the teams over the past 20+ years have remained so competitive without the aid of many Top 10 picks. It's equally amazing at how little mediocre teams at the top of this list have been over an extended stretch.

That's why fanbases losing their minds over "winning one too many games" to pick 11th instead of 8th amuses me.

Since I know the Ravens history better than the other teams, 3 of those 4 picks you listed happened between 2000-2003 (Jamal Lewis, Travis Taylor, & Terrell Suggs). In the last 20 years (since they took Suggs at #10 in 2003), they've had one top 10 pick: Ronnie Stanley in 2016 at #6 and they picked that high because the entire roster was on IR in 2015. Outside of the Top 10, their highest pick the last 20 years was Ngata at #12 in 2006. Three others were taken in the teens, and the rest have been 20s-30s.

 

[Anarchy99]

It's amazing some of the teams over the past 20+ years have remained so competitive without the aid of many Top 10 picks. It's equally amazing at how little mediocre teams at the top of this list have been over an extended stretch.

That's why fanbases losing their minds over "winning one too many games" to pick 11th instead of 8th amuses me.

Since I know the Ravens history better than the other teams, 3 of those 4 picks you listed happened between 2000-2003 (Jamal Lewis, Travis Taylor, & Terrell Suggs). In the last 20 years (since they took Suggs at #10 in 2003), they've had one top 10 pick: Ronnie Stanley in 2016 at #6 and they picked that high because the entire roster was on IR in 2015. Outside of the Top 10, their highest pick the last 20 years was Ngata at #12 in 2006. Three others were taken in the teens, and the rest have been 20s-30s.

Since the Patriots traded up to the 10 spot to pick Mayo in 2008, the next time their next earliest pick was Mac Jones at 15 in 2021. IMO, the narrative for NE probably should have been "how did do so well with so few top draft picks" . . . as opposed to "look at how terrible they've been lately drafting" (although both are true).

 

[Uruk-Hai]

It's amazing some of the teams over the past 20+ years have remained so competitive without the aid of many Top 10 picks. It's equally amazing at how little mediocre teams at the top of this list have been over an extended stretch.

That's why fanbases losing their minds over "winning one too many games" to pick 11th instead of 8th amuses me.

Since I know the Ravens history better than the other teams, 3 of those 4 picks you listed happened between 2000-2003 (Jamal Lewis, Travis Taylor, & Terrell Suggs). In the last 20 years (since they took Suggs at #10 in 2003), they've had one top 10 pick: Ronnie Stanley in 2016 at #6 and they picked that high because the entire roster was on IR in 2015. Outside of the Top 10, their highest pick the last 20 years was Ngata at #12 in 2006. Three others were taken in the teens, and the rest have been 20s-30s.

IMO, the narrative for NE probably should have been "how did do so well with so few top draft picks.

Same with the rest of the teams at the "bottom" of your list.

What I could never understand, though, was that for years Belichick was lauded for stockpiling all of these (middle & late rounders) draft picks. But he never seemed to use them

 

[TwinTurbo]

For the "It was all Brady" contingent, almost all great coaches won with the benefit of having a HOF QB. Here are all the coaches that have won multiple SBs:

Noll - 4 (Bradshaw)
Walsh -3 (Montana)
Lombardi - 2 (Starr)
Shula - 2 (Griese)
Reid - 2 (Mahomes)
Landry - 2 (Staubach)
Coughlin - 2 (Eli)
Shanahan - 2 (Elway)
Seifert - 2 (Montana, Young)
Johnson - 2 (Aikman)

There have been only 3 coaches with multiple SB wins that didn't have a HOF QB:

Gibbs - 3 (Theisman, Williams, Rypien)
Parcells - 2 (Simms, Hostetler)
Flores - 2 (Plunkett)

(As a side note, how Gibbs won with those three guys should be considered a much bigger deal than people really talk about.)

It's pretty clear that the Brady and BB pairing yielded great results. It's not out of the range of outcomes that had Drew Bledsoe stayed healthy that BB could have been let go and NE could still be looking for their first ring . . . but it's also possible Brady could have ended up selling life insurance and never ended up as a starter in the league.

I don't get how anyone who knows much about Brady could say the bolded part? Brady outplayed Bledsoe year one and it had zero to do with BB, no matter where the guy went his work ethic, determination and talent wouldn't have gone away. Remember SF passed on him in the draft so he ended up going to that "QB haven" in NE Would not argue Brady doesn't win 7 SBs without BB, but to suggest he doesn't make it at all in the NFL without BB is ridiculous imho.

Those 1st 3 Super Bowls, Brady is a shell of what he turns into when Randy Moss joins the team.
His last 3-4 SB wins, especially with Tampa Bay had as much to do with surrounding cast as anything. but Brady the CEO, nobody can argue much with that.
I do credit BB a LOT for the first Dyansty run by the Patriots.
I don't know of any other player-coach that had a dynasty run quite like these two.

I'm not taking sides here, enjoy both of your posts and insight/analysis/thoughts into what is happening up in Foxsboro
Thanks!

Agree it is the combo that made their success so special and impossible to split the credit for what the 2 of them did together. Just don't understand with everything we know about Brady now, why anyone would think he wouldn't have had at least some success somewhere else in the NFL? Mental, Physical, the guy had pretty much everything you need for a winning franchise qb and little chance he just gives up before establishing himself somewhere.

Exactly, it's like saying Michael Jordan only won championships because Phil Jackson was the coach. It's the other way around.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Great coach. Among the best ever. The HC/QB tandem is so important in this sport. One needs the other. Mahomes would likely suck if he played for Art Smith. I’m not gonna fault a HC because they lucked into a QB or played bad teams. Still has to get through the playoffs against quality opponents. I think he was a much better defensive than offensive coach. He had some incredible defenses.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I understand why we are where we are right now with Belichick, and make no mistake, I hated the Patriots to the point where it would effect my gambling strategy for a number of years (bet on them to win because then I either made money or would gladly "pay" to watch them lose). But I do hate this is where the conversation is at right now. Really wish he would walk away and we can move the conversation to recognizing him as a top 5 coach of all time in the NFL. Not that many of the points made in this thread aren't true and valid. But some lack nuance, and many err by omission. Anarchy may be a "homer", though I think he can be equally tough on his team and view them without rose colored glasses. And I appreciate his push back against some of the blanket statements that just aren't true.

Waldman and FBG own Adam Harstad had a terrific pod last week discussing more of the minutiae and looking at his career as a whole rather than these past couple years. Probably one of the biggest takeaways for me was just the poor/unlucky circumstance of Belichick's decline coinciding with Brady leaving the team. While it can create the narrative that Brady "carried" him, or that he wouldn't have been viewed as a top coach of all time without him; they do a fantastic job detailing how that couldn't be further from the case. For the better part of 20 years the entire league found both small and large scale success by borrowing, if not straight up copying, what Bill did. At this point, it does feel that the league has passed him by. It does for all the greats. Bill Walsh burned bright, but burned fast, and is still considered one of the best. Tom Landry got fired. Steelers let Chuck Noll die on vine and kept him years after he should have been let go. The longevity of Belichick combined with his wins over .500 is unrivaled by all but Halas and Shula. And while he would never be considered a great GM, I think there was a time where he was above average at least. He was a pro at trading back and acquiring later round picks, casting a wider net and catching his players that way. He also definitely had an eye for talent picking up cast offs who were written off or tagged as past their prime and able to turn them into gold. While its obvious WR was a weak spot, I'd argue there was a point in time he was one of the best with RBs. Jets cut Danny Woodhead a game into the season, didn't even want him on the roster, and Bill scooped him and got 1k yds from him immediately. And Gronk himself will tell you Belichick helped make him the greatest TE of all time not only with how he was initially employed in 12 personnel (at a time when the offense didn't even need to change it was already successful), but then when he reinvented TE usage and started running Gronk down the seem and pushing him down for those long explosive plays where no one could bring him down as he was already going full steam and the only defenders in the area were DBs 40+ lbs lighter than him.

Did he benefit from being in a poor division? Sure. The same way Brady did, but yet I rarely hear that as a knock against him. Did he benefit from Brady? Sure. Find me a HOF coach who didn't have their best years paired with a HOF QB. Shula Unitas. Landry Staubach. Lombardi Starr. It's an supporting factor. Not the reason. When did Brady really explode and start becoming the star of the show? 2007? 2008? Didn't that also happen to coincide with when Belichick basically reinvented NFL offenses bringing the shotgun spread in? At a time when other teams were running it maybe 20% of the time and he made it their base formation. And then 4-5 years later, every single other team in the league was doing it 80%+ of the time. And Brady took off those years.

He was a guru, excellent with both offensive and defensive schemes, able to squeeze every last ounce of talent out of players many other overlooked, reinvented the game multiple times.... I hate him for his greatness, but damn if I'm gonna deny him his flowers. It's a crap situation to be in right now, and like I started with, I understand why we're here. But we probably all should put a little more respect on his name and what he's done rather then chalking up a 30 year GOAT contending career to Brady, a weak division, and a few poor drafts. Ok I have to go wash my mouth out now, and will return to another decade of declining to ever say nice things about Brady/Bill/the Patriots.

im sorry but the crappy division and brady absolutely aided his numbers. you cant talk me out of that

I think he acknowledged those factors.

But Bill did a lot of very good and innovative things with this team beyond such an over simplification as that.

I think Bill has always been more of a defensive minded coach and he was able to develop schemes that were unique that got the best out of defensive players skill sets. The defense was able to transform itself on a weekly basis to take away what opponents did best with such innovations and personnel groupings to match these plans.

They consistently were one of the best running teams in the league while usually using some form of RBBC. Instead of RBBC being a liability it became a strength that had built in counters for how teams would try to defend against it and could adjust to opposing defenses.

The spread passing game as mentioned caused Wes Welker and then Edelmans abilities to be maximized. For the most part the Patriots haven't been good at drafting WR talent the entire time Bill has been there, but they were able to get more out of free agent WR than those players had done with their former teams.

There are too many good things they have done than just have Brady. The weakness of the division doesn’t matter much in my view when the Patriots were dominating all the other divisions too. For a long time the only games they would lose were to other top level super bowl caliber teams, and they won a lot of those games too. The league was weak compared to the Patriots for decades, not just the AFC East.

the weak division allowed them to have home playoff games every year. most of the time home field throughout. very similar to whats going on in KC right now. that helps a ton

Not only that, the other 3 teams in the AFC East didn't have a franchise QB for 20 years while the Pats had Brady. Imagine it was Josh Allen, Tua, and Rodgers. In an alternate universe where the Pats didn't draft Brady, Belichick probably never wins a single Superbowl with them and has a similar career arc to his Cleveland days.

Funny but I remember getting into a lot of arguments with those who said Brady was nothing more than an over-rated system QB during those first 3 championships.

I know right. Imagine you get to play in a division where you get the best QB of all time and the next best QB is your backup. That's how it was for years in the AFC East. No other division was that QB poor during those 2 decades not even the NFC North with Rodgers.

That was 6 games a year...I may be wrong but I don't remember them making the playoffs with an 8-8 record.

To be fair from 2000-2019, the Pats didn't have a losing record against any team in the NFL including AFC East. They were good against everybody. That said, if you remove the Pats record, the AFC East had the worst win percentage vs the rest of the league during that time. And on top of all that, these 3 teams kept recycling the same bad coaches amongst themselves. And none of them had a franchise QB the entire time. It was the weakest division in the league by far. It definitely was an edge, although the biggest advantage was having Brady.

 

[massraider]

With that amount of titles, trying to lessen his accomplishments just seems silly.

 

[Marauder]

Great coach. Among the best ever. The HC/QB tandem is so important in this sport. One needs the other. Mahomes would likely suck if he played for Art Smith. I’m not gonna fault a HC because they lucked into a QB or played bad teams. Still has to get through the playoffs against quality opponents. I think he was a much better defensive than offensive coach. He had some incredible defenses.

The way I see it is BB is maybe the GOAT defensive coach. IMO, the two biggest factors in the NE dynasty were 1. Brady, 2. Consistently great defenses. Not just great defensive players but, more importantly, consistently great defensive game planning. Heck, their defense, even this year, was still very good.

This may be a controversial statement but I suspect that if BB had been the defensive coordinator for the past 24 years with some other competent head coach, they probably would have been just as successful.

 

[Anarchy99]

To be fair from 2000-2019, the Pats didn't have a losing record against any team in the NFL including AFC East. They were good against everybody. That said, if you remove the Pats record, the AFC East had the worst win percentage vs the rest of the league during that time. And on top of all that, these 3 teams kept recycling the same bad coaches amongst themselves. And none of them had a franchise QB the entire time. It was the weakest division in the league by far. It definitely was an edge, although the biggest advantage was having Brady.

At one point I did a breakdown of all team and division records over the Patriots run. What you posted is a little misleading. What I bolded is only true when the records of the AFC teams INCLUDE their games against the Patriots. The AFC East help its own against out of division opponents (and NE had essentially the same winning% against non-division opponents as they did within the division).

That being said, I have mentioned multiple times that the AFC for many years really only had the Colts / Broncos, Steelers, and Chargers that were consistently competitive. By the end the Chiefs took over for the Chargers, but there are multiple better QBs (if they are healthy) and competitive teams in the AFC these days than there used to be.

 

[-jb-]

Look at Bill make the funny.

https://x.com/barstoolsports/status/1745492231631286485?s=20

 

[pinkstapler]

Great coach. Among the best ever. The HC/QB tandem is so important in this sport. One needs the other. Mahomes would likely suck if he played for Art Smith. I’m not gonna fault a HC because they lucked into a QB or played bad teams. Still has to get through the playoffs against quality opponents. I think he was a much better defensive than offensive coach. He had some incredible defenses.

The way I see it is BB is maybe the GOAT defensive coach. IMO, the two biggest factors in the NE dynasty were 1. Brady, 2. Consistently great defenses. Not just great defensive players but, more importantly, consistently great defensive game planning. Heck, their defense, even this year, was still very good.

This may be a controversial statement but I suspect that if BB had been the defensive coordinator for the past 24 years with some other competent head coach, they probably would have been just as successful.

I just think this completely overlooks so much BB did for the offense too. Already brought up him shotgun spread to the NFL level at a time when NO ONE in the league was running it. I'd argue this was also what helped unlock Brady. What he did with Hernandez and Gronk when they came out. How he revamped Gronks role into a field stretcher and seam threat (which we see copied quite a bit now). What about when he was still able to go 11-5 with Matt Cassel when Tom Brady missed the season? Moving away from schemes and just into the other facets of being a head coach from an offensive perspective: the WR allergic guy who acquired Randy Moss for a 4th round pick and Wes Welker for a 2nd, the call to take an intentional safety in the Denver game craziness, getting John Harbaugh so confused and upset he stormed onto the field to get a unsportsmanlike conduct penalty over Bill's formations (especially fun he named the two formations Baltimore and Ravens), half the country including a lot of Pats fans crying in 2014 that Brady was dead and Bill should bench him in favor of Jimmy G but he laughed it off and went on to go 12-4, in 2013 before the new OT rules choosing to kickoff to a Manning led Broncos team knowing the wind would dismantle their own offense, taking a delay of game followed by an intentional false start to burn nearly 90 seconds of clock against the Jets because he knows the rulebook better than the officials, the greatest time out never called in SB49 that boggled Carrol so hard he forgot his RB was Marshawn Lynch... and I feel like I could go on another page with it.

Anyone trying to discredit Belichick as a coach is delusional to me, no offense intended to those doing that here. But I just can't see anything other than hatred or ignorance trying to say that this dude isn't one of the best coaches in our lifetime. Not just NFL, but any sport. And with 0 qualifiers; not because weak division or Brady QB, not just a defensive coach, not even the "but a bad drafter". Though I'm sure it's already printed somewhere, I look forward to all those attributing the majority of his success to Brady tap dance and move goal posts when Brady himself comes out and says again that his own greatness was in large part due to Bill.

 

[Boston]

Great coach. Among the best ever. The HC/QB tandem is so important in this sport. One needs the other. Mahomes would likely suck if he played for Art Smith. I’m not gonna fault a HC because they lucked into a QB or played bad teams. Still has to get through the playoffs against quality opponents. I think he was a much better defensive than offensive coach. He had some incredible defenses.

The way I see it is BB is maybe the GOAT defensive coach. IMO, the two biggest factors in the NE dynasty were 1. Brady, 2. Consistently great defenses. Not just great defensive players but, more importantly, consistently great defensive game planning. Heck, their defense, even this year, was still very good.

This may be a controversial statement but I suspect that if BB had been the defensive coordinator for the past 24 years with some other competent head coach, they probably would have been just as successful.

I just think this completely overlooks so much BB did for the offense too. Already brought up him shotgun spread to the NFL level at a time when NO ONE in the league was running it. I'd argue this was also what helped unlock Brady. What he did with Hernandez and Gronk when they came out. How he revamped Gronks role into a field stretcher and seam threat (which we see copied quite a bit now). What about when he was still able to go 11-5 with Matt Cassel when Tom Brady missed the season? Moving away from schemes and just into the other facets of being a head coach from an offensive perspective: the WR allergic guy who acquired Randy Moss for a 4th round pick and Wes Welker for a 2nd, the call to take an intentional safety in the Denver game craziness, getting John Harbaugh so confused and upset he stormed onto the field to get a unsportsmanlike conduct penalty over Bill's formations (especially fun he named the two formations Baltimore and Ravens), half the country including a lot of Pats fans crying in 2014 that Brady was dead and Bill should bench him in favor of Jimmy G but he laughed it off and went on to go 12-4, in 2013 before the new OT rules choosing to kickoff to a Manning led Broncos team knowing the wind would dismantle their own offense, taking a delay of game followed by an intentional false start to burn nearly 90 seconds of clock against the Jets because he knows the rulebook better than the officials, the greatest time out never called in SB49 that boggled Carrol so hard he forgot his RB was Marshawn Lynch... and I feel like I could go on another page with it.

Anyone trying to discredit Belichick as a coach is delusional to me, no offense intended to those doing that here. But I just can't see anything other than hatred or ignorance trying to say that this dude isn't one of the best coaches in our lifetime. Not just NFL, but any sport. And with 0 qualifiers; not because weak division or Brady QB, not just a defensive coach, not even the "but a bad drafter". Though I'm sure it's already printed somewhere, I look forward to all those attributing the majority of his success to Brady tap dance and move goal posts when Brady himself comes out and says again that his own greatness was in large part due to Bill.

Hat tip to you for this post…the footage of him not calling a timeout while watching the Seattle sideline is pure genius….as good a coaching moment as there is in the history of the NFL.

 

[pinkstapler]

Great coach. Among the best ever. The HC/QB tandem is so important in this sport. One needs the other. Mahomes would likely suck if he played for Art Smith. I’m not gonna fault a HC because they lucked into a QB or played bad teams. Still has to get through the playoffs against quality opponents. I think he was a much better defensive than offensive coach. He had some incredible defenses.

The way I see it is BB is maybe the GOAT defensive coach. IMO, the two biggest factors in the NE dynasty were 1. Brady, 2. Consistently great defenses. Not just great defensive players but, more importantly, consistently great defensive game planning. Heck, their defense, even this year, was still very good.

This may be a controversial statement but I suspect that if BB had been the defensive coordinator for the past 24 years with some other competent head coach, they probably would have been just as successful.

I just think this completely overlooks so much BB did for the offense too. Already brought up him shotgun spread to the NFL level at a time when NO ONE in the league was running it. I'd argue this was also what helped unlock Brady. What he did with Hernandez and Gronk when they came out. How he revamped Gronks role into a field stretcher and seam threat (which we see copied quite a bit now). What about when he was still able to go 11-5 with Matt Cassel when Tom Brady missed the season? Moving away from schemes and just into the other facets of being a head coach from an offensive perspective: the WR allergic guy who acquired Randy Moss for a 4th round pick and Wes Welker for a 2nd, the call to take an intentional safety in the Denver game craziness, getting John Harbaugh so confused and upset he stormed onto the field to get a unsportsmanlike conduct penalty over Bill's formations (especially fun he named the two formations Baltimore and Ravens), half the country including a lot of Pats fans crying in 2014 that Brady was dead and Bill should bench him in favor of Jimmy G but he laughed it off and went on to go 12-4, in 2013 before the new OT rules choosing to kickoff to a Manning led Broncos team knowing the wind would dismantle their own offense, taking a delay of game followed by an intentional false start to burn nearly 90 seconds of clock against the Jets because he knows the rulebook better than the officials, the greatest time out never called in SB49 that boggled Carrol so hard he forgot his RB was Marshawn Lynch... and I feel like I could go on another page with it.

Anyone trying to discredit Belichick as a coach is delusional to me, no offense intended to those doing that here. But I just can't see anything other than hatred or ignorance trying to say that this dude isn't one of the best coaches in our lifetime. Not just NFL, but any sport. And with 0 qualifiers; not because weak division or Brady QB, not just a defensive coach, not even the "but a bad drafter". Though I'm sure it's already printed somewhere, I look forward to all those attributing the majority of his success to Brady tap dance and move goal posts when Brady himself comes out and says again that his own greatness was in large part due to Bill.

Hat tip to you for this post…the footage of him not calling a timeout while watching the Seattle sideline is pure genius….as good a coaching moment as there is in the history of the NFL.

I just don't get it tbh lol. I hated the damn Pats for so long, it's going to be hard not to stop despite Brady and now Bill being gone. But how this can even be a debate, that somehow Bill is overrated or doesn't deserve his accolades, is beyond me. Like standing waste deep in water and insisting you aren't wet kind of lunacy. The man is a genius. His time seems past, but 2-3 years of mediocrity does not erase 25 of dominance. And no one has even touched on what he did prior to becoming a head coach. I can only think people are missing the forest for the trees because we are still standing in it. No way he isn't ultimately considered a top 5 NFL coach of all time when he's done, and I'd argue a top 15 coach of any sport all time (guess I should clarify American coach because I'm sure I'd be overlooking a lot of international coaches who've accomplished amazing things, but that's picking nits).

 

[ChiefD]

• 2018 AFC title game in Kansas City. The Chiefs hadn't been shut out in any half all season. The Pats did that in the first half, using a young Jon Jones head-up on Tyreek Hill but having Devin McCourty almost always on Hill's side, eliminating the big play ability early. They also put a corner on Travis Kelce. No one operated that way or had success when they did until then. The Chiefs had 32 yards at the half, and Patrick Mahomes was sacked thrice for 43 yards.

This only tells half the story. The best part of this game was Andy Reid adjusting and the Chiefs put up 31 in the second half to put them into position to win that game. With essentially a rookie QB (I know he sat the previous year).

Mahomes finished with 295 yards and 3 TD's, one to Kelce. Reid figured out that he needed to use his backs against that defense: Damien Williams had 2 receiving TD's and 1 rushing. The Chiefs defense was terrible (Bob Sutton), and we know the rest of the story.

A great chess match game between two hall of famers.

 

[belljr]

After reading Brady's IG post..... I don't think its worth arguing was it BB or TB, imo.... I think its the both factor. Maybe BB pushed TB to be the QB he became, if it was a different HC maybe TB doesn't become the player he did, and by becoming that player it obviously elevated the team that later he could do without BB.

I just think it's impossible to answer who carried whom it was probably a combo of everything

 

[Chaos34]

Chandler Jones says it all.

 

[menobrown]

Chandler Jones says it all.

They gonna put him back in the home if he keeps making videos.

 

[Anarchy99]

Not sure what I am going to do with my Sundays now. With Bill and Tom gone, not sure I will have the same enthusiasm and desire to watch the Pats looking like they did in the early 90's. Do I really have to start spending Sundays with my wife now (who I've been with the entirety of the TB12 / BB era)? Is that something husbands do with their wives? This is uncharted territory for me.

 

[Boston]

• 2018 AFC title game in Kansas City. The Chiefs hadn't been shut out in any half all season. The Pats did that in the first half, using a young Jon Jones head-up on Tyreek Hill but having Devin McCourty almost always on Hill's side, eliminating the big play ability early. They also put a corner on Travis Kelce. No one operated that way or had success when they did until then. The Chiefs had 32 yards at the half, and Patrick Mahomes was sacked thrice for 43 yards.

This only tells half the story. The best part of this game was Andy Reid adjusting and the Chiefs put up 31 in the second half to put them into position to win that game. With essentially a rookie QB (I know he sat the previous year).

Mahomes finished with 295 yards and 3 TD's, one to Kelce. Reid figured out that he needed to use his backs against that defense: Damien Williams had 2 receiving TD's and 1 rushing. The Chiefs defense was terrible (Bob Sutton), and we know the rest of the story.

A great chess match game between two hall of famers.

One of the most underrated games of the BB/Brady era because it was one of the few times since that first Super Bowl that they were a legit underdog.