Help Me Understand HR-8 Gun Control Bill (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

Apologies if Honda. I"m sure this has been brought up in the other threads and buried beneath the back and forth insults (which aren't close to a discussion) where one side is the "death cult" and the other side are idiots. 

Steve Kerr yesterday referenced HR-8 in his pre game talk:

"There's 50 senators, right now, who refuse to vote on HR-8, which is a background check rule that the House passed a couple years ago. It's been sitting there for two years. There's a reason they won't vote on it: to hold onto power.

"I ask you, Mitch McConnell, and ask all of you Senators who refuse to do anything about the violence, the school shootings, the supermarket shootings, I ask you: Are you going to put your own desire for power ahead of the lives of our children, our elderly, and our churchgoers? Because that's what it looks like. That's what we do every week. I'm fed up, I've had enough.

I found this on google https://www.everytown.org/what-is-hr-8/

Can folks please explain what this is and why it hasn't passed the Senate and do it in a way where we can discuss it? Meaning please save the insults for the other side and actually discuss it?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Apologies if Honda. I"m sure this has been brought up in the other threads and buried beneath the back and forth insults (which aren't close to a discussion) where one side is the "death cult" and the other side are idiots. 

Steve Kerr yesterday referenced HR-8 in his pre game talk:

I found this on google https://www.everytown.org/what-is-hr-8/

Can folks please explain what this is and why it hasn't passed the Senate and do it in a way where we can discuss it? Meaning please save the insults for the other side and actually discuss it?

I'll try.

I believe it would end the private sales of guns at gun shows or on the internet because those sales do not involve a background check.  My impression is that Senate Republicans oppose the law because it turns ordinary citizens selling their private property into criminals.  Senate Republicans also usually point out that most of the mass shootings that have taken place would not actually have been prevented by the law so in addition to infringing on their private property rights it isn't clear that it would have an impact on the problem it is intended to address.

 

[timschochet]

If you go to a gun store and purchase a gun, you have to undergo a background check, and if you’re a convicted felon, you don’t get to buy one. But if you buy a gun from a private seller, there is no such background check required. The law changes this and requires background checks for ALL purchases. 
 

It’s very unlikely that this law would prevent any mass shootings like yesterday. But it MIGHT reduce gun crimes in general. Which is why most law enforcement is in favor. 

 

[squistion]

Apologies if Honda. I"m sure this has been brought up in the other threads and buried beneath the back and forth insults (which aren't close to a discussion) where one side is the "death cult" and the other side are idiots. 

Steve Kerr yesterday referenced HR-8 in his pre game talk:

I found this on google https://www.everytown.org/what-is-hr-8/

Can folks please explain what this is and why it hasn't passed the Senate and do it in a way where we can discuss it? Meaning please save the insults for the other side and actually discuss it?

Similar legislation was blocked by Republicans 10 years ago after the Sandy Hook massacre. 

Why it hasn't passed the Senate is that the GOP sees it as the beginning of the "slippery slope" that will lead to all guns being outlawed or confiscated (which is also why we have seen all new gun legislation blocked or stalled in the Senate in the last decade). 

 

[Joe Bryant]

When people say they are in favor of Universal Background Checks for guns, are they essentially saying they're in favor of HR-8?

 

[timschochet]

When people say they are in favor of Universal Background Checks for guns, are they essentially saying they're in favor of HR-8?

Yes. But that’s different from universal registration (sometimes people get the two confused.) 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Yes. But that’s different from universal registration (sometimes people get the two confused.) 

Thanks. What's the difference?

 

[Max Power]

I haven't read it. Can I still give a gun to someone?  Pass it on to a family member?

 

[Rich Conway]

Thanks. What's the difference?

As I understand it, universal background checks would require a background check to buy a gun from anywhere or anyone (as opposed to the current "buy a gun from a dealer").  It would not require every existing gun owner to register their guns with the government.  Universal registration would do the latter.

 

[Joe Schmo]

I haven't read it. Can I still give a gun to someone?  Pass it on to a family member?

Yes, if they pass the background check. Giving your gun to your Uncle who was just released after serving time for murdering someone with a gun and who visits a therapist often because he still hears voices would not be optimal.

 

[timschochet]

As I understand it, universal background checks would require a background check to buy a gun from anywhere or anyone (as opposed to the current "buy a gun from a dealer").  It would not require every existing gun owner to register their guns with the government.  Universal registration would do the latter.

Correct. 

I’m actually in favor of both. But I recognize that in our current political environment, the first is doable, maybe, while the second simply won’t happen. 

 

[Max Power]

Yes, if they pass the background check. Giving your gun to your Uncle who was just released after serving time for murdering someone with a gun and who visits a therapist often because he still hears voices would not be optimal.

Hypothetical, I die... Leave my guns to my son.  He has to do a background check to get the guns?  And what happens if he doesn't pass it?  

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I haven't read it. Can I still give a gun to someone?  Pass it on to a family member?

There are limited exceptions to gift a gun to a family member without doing a background check.

 

[the moops]

Hypothetical, I die... Leave my guns to my son.  He has to do a background check to get the guns?  And what happens if he doesn't pass it?  

Do you want your guns to go to your son if he can't pass a background check?

 

[Joe Bryant]

If the issue is holding on to power as Kerr suggests, is he saying opposing HR-8 would cost politicians votes?

What is the latest polling for how many voters support HR-8 or Universal Background Checks? I understood the vast majority of all voters supported this?

I know guns are big business and all but I don't think they're as big as the oil industry or the automobile industry are they? Does the NRA and other lobbying groups plus the gun manufacturers hold THAT much contribution money that politicians will go that much against the voters?

 

[the moops]

• I am not sure how big the gun lobby is compared to oil or automobile or pharmaceutical (probably pretty small), but I do know that the NRA and other gun rights groups spend twice as much as gun control groups
  

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Hypothetical, I die... Leave my guns to my son.  He has to do a background check to get the guns?  And what happens if he doesn't pass it?  

I'm not sure but I think there's no background check needed in that situation. The law does not apply to these transactions, it's a little confusing:

“(B) a transfer or exchange (which, for purposes of this subsection, means an in-kind transfer of a firearm of the same type or value) that is a loan or bona fide gift between spouses, between domestic partners, between parents and their children, including step-parents and their step-children, between siblings, between aunts or uncles and their nieces or nephews, or between grandparents and their grandchildren, if the transferor has no reason to believe that the transferee will use or intends to use the firearm in a crime or is prohibited from possessing firearms under State or Federal law;

“(C) a transfer to an executor, administrator, trustee, or personal representative of an estate or a trust that occurs by operation of law upon the death of another person;

 

[Max Power]

Do you want your guns to go to your son if he can't pass a background check?

I guess it would depend on what he failed it for.  A concern would be if the government wants to start confiscating guns, they can just make the background test harder to pass and do it administratively. 

If he can't pass for whatever reason, I think the family should at least be compensated with the value of the gun collection. 

 

[moleculo]

If the issue is holding on to power as Kerr suggests, is he saying opposing HR-8 would cost politicians votes?

What is the latest polling for how many voters support HR-8 or Universal Background Checks? I understood the vast majority of all voters supported this?

I know guns are big business and all but I don't think they're as big as the oil industry or the automobile industry are they? Does the NRA and other lobbying groups plus the gun manufacturers hold THAT much contribution money that politicians will go that much against the voters?

IMO it's no much the money as it is the power of passionate voters.  As you are well aware, 2A is a very hot-button topic full of very passionate single-issue voters.

 

[moleculo]

I guess it would depend on what he failed it for.  A concern would be if the government wants to start confiscating guns, they can just make the background test harder to pass and do it administratively. 

If he can't pass for whatever reason, I think the family should at least be compensated with the value of the gun collection. 

I would think you would just find someone else to sell it to who can pass.

 

[timschochet]

If the issue is holding on to power as Kerr suggests, is he saying opposing HR-8 would cost politicians votes?

What is the latest polling for how many voters support HR-8 or Universal Background Checks? I understood the vast majority of all voters supported this?

I know guns are big business and all but I don't think they're as big as the oil industry or the automobile industry are they? Does the NRA and other lobbying groups plus the gun manufacturers hold THAT much contribution money that politicians will go that much against the voters?

So this is a classic case of pluralism at work. Yes the vast majority of voters support this bill. However they are not willing to vote for politicians based on this issue, or any gun control issue: in the coming election for example, gun control will likely be way down the list for most voters, as compared to inflation. 
 

On the other hand, the folks opposed to gun control view it as a priority, and they WILL vote on it. And they will also vote to “primary” any Republican who dares to vote for such a bill. And that’s why, even though they are in the minority, they usually win. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

IMO it's no much the money as it is the power of passionate voters.  As you are well aware, 2A is a very hot-button topic full of very passionate single-issue voters.

Do you know the polling numbers for how many voters support HR-8 or Universal Background Check? I understood it to be a huge majority in favor of them. 

 

[Max Power]

I'm not sure but I think there's no background check needed in that situation. The law does not apply to these transactions, it's a little confusing:

I understand that as you can pass them on to your family as long as you vouch for them.  You can loan guns to family.  Anything outside of family will need a check.  

 

[the moops]

Here is an article detailing the 12 reasons why a person would fail a background check in this bill

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/gun-background-checks-nics-failure/

1. Convicted of a crime punishable by more than one year or a misdemeanor punishable by more than two years: 895,331

2. Fugitive from Justice: 194,254

3. Unlawful User/Addicted to a Controlled Substance: 164,287

4. Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence Conviction: 155,017

5. State Prohibitor: 97,179

6. Under Indictment/Information: 65,753

7. Protection/Restraining Order for Domestic Violence: 63,928

8. Adjudicated Mental Health: 46,266

9. Illegal/Unlawful Alien: 29,182

10. Federally Denied Persons File: 6,367

11. Dishonorable Discharge: 1,258

12. Renounced U.S. Citizenship: 101

 

[timschochet]

Do you know the polling numbers for how many voters support HR-8 or Universal Background Check? I understood it to be a huge majority in favor of them. 

Last I checked it was something like 70-80%, including a majority of gun owners. In fact, some polling suggested that many NRA members are unaware that there  is any private sales loophole. 
 

Doesn’t matter; the 20-30% opposed rule the day. See my above post. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Do y'all see what I'm getting at and the question I'm asking? I hear and understand the situation to be this:

The vast majority of all voters support universal background check

50 senators oppose universal background checks because they want to stay elected.

That doesn't add up to me. The only thing I can figure is the lobby interests are so huge they convince politicians to go against voters. 

 

[Max Power]

I would think you would just find someone else to sell it to who can pass.

I was thinking of it in more of an inheritance aspect, but I suppose I can just list multiple people. 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Do you know the polling numbers for how many voters support HR-8 or Universal Background Check? I understood it to be a huge majority in favor of them. 

This poll says 81% of voters support it.

 

[timschochet]

Do y'all see what I'm getting at and the question I'm asking? I hear and understand the situation to be this:

The vast majority of all voters support universal background check

50 senators oppose universal background checks because they want to stay electe

That doesn't add up to me. The only thing I can figure is the lobby interests are so huge they convince politicians to go against voters. 

Not quite. I tried to explain it in my post. Those in favor don’t see this as a priority issue to vote on. Those opposed do see it that way. And, the folks opposed are a minority in the general public, but they are very significant in the Republican primaries. Most of these Republican politicians are more fearful, in these gerrymandered times, of losing to another Republican running on their right than they are of losing in the general election. That’s the key. 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Do y'all see what I'm getting at and the question I'm asking? I hear and understand the situation to be this:

The vast majority of all voters support universal background check

50 senators oppose universal background checks because they want to stay electe

That doesn't add up to me. The only thing I can figure is the lobby interests are so huge they convince politicians to go against voters. 

Lobbyists are part of it, but it's also that Senators need to go through primaries, and they are not elected by "all voters." 

What is the level of support among Republican primary voters in red states?  I'm not sure that it's over 50%. 

 

[The Commish]

Do y'all see what I'm getting at and the question I'm asking? I hear and understand the situation to be this:

The vast majority of all voters support universal background check

50 senators oppose universal background checks because they want to stay electe

That doesn't add up to me. The only thing I can figure is the lobby interests are so huge they convince politicians to go against voters. 

This is exactly it.....the NRA specifically.  Now, throw on top the way the representatives are picked by the people via districts and you start to see how it's all related....at least in the House.  Talking about the Senate, there are primaries...for the GOP "the more conservative, the better" is the rule....for the Dems "the more liberal the better".  NEITHER is pandering to the middle in any of this.  Not to mention, in the Senate, a state with 25M people have the same number of representatives as a state with 1M people.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Is it a thing where 80% support HR8 but just soft support.

But the 20% who oppose HR8 are strongly against it?

That still seems odd. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

This is exactly it.....the NRA specifically.  Now, throw on top the way the representatives are picked by the people via districts and you start to see how it's all related....at least in the House.  Talking about the Senate, there are primaries...for the GOP "the more conservative, the better" is the rule....for the Dems "the more liberal the better".  NEITHER is pandering to the middle in any of this.

Is it public record how much the NRA donates?

Do we know how it compares to the Automobile or Oil or Cigarette or Alcohol lobbies?

I know the NRA is big, but it seems like maybe I'm not understanding just how big and how it relates to other lobbies. 

 

[The Commish]

Is it public record how much the NRA donates?

Do we know how it compares to the Automobile or Oil or Cigarette or Alcohol lobbies?

I know the NRA is big, but it seems like maybe I'm not understanding just how big and how it relates to other lobbies. 

You can probably find some data on donations, but with PACs and Super PACs, there's really no way to create a meaningful position.  What I've been watching instead of that sort of stuff was their workings through the judicial systems.  Like here in Florida, shortly after Parkland, they had 50+ lawsuits on a large swath of issues challenging every single "change" that the state was proposing.  It's that sort of thing that becomes more important.

 

[The General]

My thoughts on why this doesn’t doesn’t get past the Senate boils down to solely partisan politics.

As was the case with ACA, IIRC the vast majority of its main components were popular with voters in polls when broken down and asked in a series of questions asking about the key elements of what it would provide. 

With this gun bill people are in favor but voters go to their corners and vote for their team overlooking votes on specific bills like this one.

 

[Joe Bryant]

And I guess to continue my thought line, at what point does the balance tip over?

It seems we're saying now 20% people opposing HR-8 can outweigh 80% of the people for HR-8.

But at some point the scale tips, right? What is that point? 90% for HR-8? 95%? 99%? 99.99%?

 

[bostonfred]

Do y'all see what I'm getting at and the question I'm asking? I hear and understand the situation to be this:

The vast majority of all voters support universal background check

50 senators oppose universal background checks because they want to stay elected.

That doesn't add up to me. The only thing I can figure is the lobby interests are so huge they convince politicians to go against voters. 

The NRA will support a candidate in the next primary who favors pro gun legislation. They've proven to be a formidable block of voters because they directly communicate with their base and have a very dedicated group of hot button voters. 

This is why the link between Russia and the NRA in the Mueller report and subsequent Senate investigation was especially concerning.  Google Maria Butina or NRA Russia for more info. 

 

[Uruk-Hai]

And I guess to continue my thought line, at what point does the balance tip over?

It seems we're saying now 20% people opposing HR-8 can outweigh 80% of the people for HR-8.

But at some point the scale tips, right? What is that point? 90% for HR-8? 95%? 99%? 99.99%?

A lot of those 80% are gonna vote for NRA-backed politicians anyway because of other issues.

If this were a single-issue referendum put to the general population and they HAD to vote, it would pass pretty easily IMO. But it's tangled with other issues that many of those 80% would side with the pro-NRA candidate on.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Do y'all see what I'm getting at and the question I'm asking? I hear and understand the situation to be this:

The vast majority of all voters support universal background check

50 senators oppose universal background checks because they want to stay elected.

That doesn't add up to me. The only thing I can figure is the lobby interests are so huge they convince politicians to go against voters. 

Gerrymandering + primaries = a small portion of Americans on both extreme ends of the spectrum control who wins primary races.  Which is why we continue to drift to extreme candidates on both sides.

Solutions:

- end gerrymandering

- rank choice voting

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Does the NRA and other lobbying groups plus the gun manufacturers hold THAT much contribution money that politicians will go that much against the voters?

Yes.

(and I see Bostonfred has done the explainer -- getting primaried by the NRA in the Republican Party is bad for your career prospects)

 

[Gatorman]

Gerrymandering + primaries = a small portion of Americans on both extreme ends of the spectrum control who wins primary races.  Which is why we continue to drift to extreme candidates on both sides.

Solutions:

- end gerrymandering

- rank choice voting

This is the correct reason.  No matter what type of politician you are (left or right) you have to cover your flank more so than move to the middle. With the way districts are written, the candidate picks the district not the voters pick the candidate.  Once you get the Nomination for your party, you are favored to win.  Only extenuating circumstances (blue wave, some nasty personal news) etc derails your ascendancy.  

 

[bostonfred]

And I guess to continue my thought line, at what point does the balance tip over?

It seems we're saying now 20% people opposing HR-8 can outweigh 80% of the people for HR-8.

But at some point the scale tips, right? What is that point? 90% for HR-8? 95%? 99%? 99.99%?

You're asking a theoretical question but in practice it's just not going to happen that way.   There's too many people entrenched in their opinions and the NRA will continue to get enough support in the primaries to push their mission. 

The tipping points would have to be either the republican party fractures because enough people no longer associate themselves with the core values, or the NRA somehow loses its pull.   After their leadership was literally referred to as Russian agents to the collective yawns of the party - whose leadership has explicit motivation to continue their support - it really falls on the 80 percent to organize themselves behind another party

 

[The Commish]

And I guess to continue my thought line, at what point does the balance tip over?

It seems we're saying now 20% people opposing HR-8 can outweigh 80% of the people for HR-8.

But at some point the scale tips, right? What is that point? 90% for HR-8? 95%? 99%? 99.99%?

It only tips when the number of Senators and Reps tips....general public approval/disapproval doesn't really matter all that much.  

 

[Joe Bryant]

If this were a single-issue referendum put to the general population and they HAD to vote, it would pass pretty easily IMO. But it's tangled with other issues that many of those 80% would side with the pro-NRA candidate on.

Thanks. Can you elaborate more on that?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Also. Thanks for the good discussion on this. Much better than the other places.

 

[glvsav37]

Do y'all see what I'm getting at and the question I'm asking? I hear and understand the situation to be this:

The vast majority of all voters support universal background check

50 senators oppose universal background checks because they want to stay elected.

That doesn't add up to me. The only thing I can figure is the lobby interests are so huge they convince politicians to go against voters. 

HI, welcome to America...you must be new here. 

I'm kidding of course, but situations like this is why we need a 3rd party. (sorry if this sets off another string of threads). 

I am generally a conservative, but am also in favor of gun/background checks as some form of new regulation. But I cant be both red and blue, I need to be all yes or all no b/c thats my options. 

I am not a gun owner but thats not to say I wont be. I'm not going to vote D on just this one issue b/c I know they have a bus load ofd other issues I dont agree with. So I vote red and have to live with everyone asking me the question" are you happy with yourself" after another one of these happens. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

HI, welcome to America...you must be new here. 

I very rarely post on this topic because I don't have anything in particular add.  Except that polling data don't support the idea that voters overwhelmingly favor more gun control and are just having their preferences thwarted by lobbyists.  It's roughly a 50-50 issue.  

 

[glvsav37]

I very rarely post on this topic because I don't have anything in particular add.  Except that polling data don't support the idea that voters overwhelmingly favor more gun control and are just having their preferences thwarted by lobbyists.  It's roughly a 50-50 issue.  

I amended my post with some actual content. I realized we were having a solid discussion and didn't want to be the lone snarky guy in the room

 

[Joe Bryant]

I very rarely post on this topic because I don't have anything in particular add.  Except that polling data don't support the idea that voters overwhelmingly favor more gun control and are just having their preferences thwarted by lobbyists.  It's roughly a 50-50 issue.  

That would help explain a bit more on this then. I will say the links you posted there for polling are not what I usually see on this. The overwhelming sentiment I get is 80% of American voters support this but Congress won't listen to voters. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

I am not a gun owner but thats not to say I wont be. I'm not going to vote D on just this one issue b/c I know they have a bus load ofd other issues I dont agree with. So I vote red and have to live with everyone asking me the question" are you happy with yourself" after another one of these happens. 

I think that's where a TON of people are. Many of my real life close friends are in this spot.