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Hockey GOAT (1 Viewer)

Who is the hockey GOAT, all leagues, all time?

  • Total voters
    132
Thorn said:
An argument for anyone other than Gretzky requires several sentences and disclaimers.

The "argument" for Gretzky is: see record book.
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He’s a compiler who played in an era with no defense or goaltending. 

 
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chet said:
No.  On a good day, maybe they were close but Coffey was playing alongside Wayne, Jarri, Messier, Anderson, Semenko (hah) etc.  Orr redefined the position so Coffey could attack as a d-man.  But defensively, Coffey wasn't close. 

There is no knowledgeable hockey person who would ever rate Coffey over Orr.  There are plenty who rate Orr as the GOAT.
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A better comparison to Orr is Doug Harvey who's the only d-man I've ever seen ranked higher than Bobby Orr by someone who has legitimate hockey knowledge.  

Scotty Bowman had this to say about Wayne, Orr and Harvey:

Gretzky, along with Doug Harvey and Bobby Orr, are the only guys I’ve ever seen who have the whole game in their view, as if it were in slow motion on TV, when they’re on the ice — Scotty Bowman
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This article argues Harvey is number two to Orr but is a good read for those unfamiliar with Harvey who played in the 50s.

Coffey was great but would you take Bourque, Potvin, Lidstrom?  I'd take all three ahead of Coffey.

 
 Nicklas Lidstrom or Al Macinnis

*At least from what I remember on EA NHL

 
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belljr said:
 Nicklas Lidstrom
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:no:  Great player but Orr still way ahead IMO.

From this article:

In 657 career games, Orr tallied 270 goals and 645 assists for 915 points. Orr finished with a plus 597 rating and 953 penalty minutes. He also racked up 92 points in 74 playoff games.

Orr won one more Norris trophy than Lidstrom, taking the award in eight consecutive seasons from 1968 to 1975. In that same span of eight consecutive seasons, Orr was named a first team All-Star every year. He is the only defenseman to ever win the Art Ross trophy as the NHL’s leading scorer. A feat he accomplished twice, in 1970 and 1975, and neither season was the most productive of his career.
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bryhamm said:
also the first to be wrong
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Perhaps.

Not everyone uses the same criteria. Difficult to compare, different eras, different positions,  and Orr's career cut way too short by something that probably could have been more easily and competently addressed if he had been born a decade later. I just like Orr more from end to end on the ice, and from head to skates to fists. But, I grew up when we didn't always wear helmets and even most Lady Byng players could drop the gloves when needed.

 
Binky The Doormat said:
:hifive:  ...oh yeah, and they made sure we knew she was ...you know ...dirty

"a real go'er"
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*nudge,nudge - wink,wink* 

chet said:
I had to google her but :yes:  . I agree.
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the best part about Phyllis was that even though Minny was an icebox through many of the episodes, they were always set inside, and Phyllis would be wearing warm clothes ... so it wasn't cold in their indoor environment.

 she would wear this ruffled white sweater, and, let's just say ... she was "excited" to be on set, and had a knack of "pointedly" delivering her, uhhhhh ... dialogue. 

them were some diamond cutters. 

PS - always felt Bess had to have been adopted ... either that or Lars looked like a buzzard that fell into a #### wagon ... 'cuz Bess? she was no "looker" - did not take after that milfaliscous goddess. 

🍾

 
Honestly, the real debate is, who is number 2?  

Gretzky is clearly ahead of them all, but Orr, Howe and Mario all have very strong arguments as far as being the 2nd best. 

Hasek got mentioned, but it is difficult to rate goalies vs forwards and defensemen, much like it is difficult to rate pitchers in baseball vs infielders and outfielders. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
Honestly, the real debate is, who is number 2?  

Gretzky is clearly ahead of them all, but Orr, Howe and Mario all have very strong arguments as far as being the 2nd best. 

Hasek got mentioned, but it is difficult to rate goalies vs forwards and defensemen, much like it is difficult to rate pitchers in baseball vs infielders and outfielders. 
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Plenty of well informed hockey people who disagree with you with Orr and Lemieux having more than credible arguments.

 
chet said:
Plenty of well informed hockey people who disagree with you with Orr and Lemieux having more than credible arguments.
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I understand that.  Nothing in life will ever be 100% when discussing something like this, which ultimately is subjective.  Too many "yeah but"s and "if"s with those guys for me, though.  

 
IMO Orr is the only guy who could stake a potential claim to being the best, but I still think it’s Gretzky.

Gretzky put up all those numbers despite being far from the fastest, biggest, strongest guy, and not with an overly hard shot. He just saw the game differently.

 
Ghost Rider said:
I understand that.  Nothing in life will ever be 100% when discussing something like this, which ultimately is subjective.  
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Given the above, how do you write, "Honestly, the real debate is, who is number 2"?

I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I wrote such malarky.  

 
chet said:
Given the above, how do you write, "Honestly, the real debate is, who is number 2"?

I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I wrote such malarky.  
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Fortunately, I don't lose sleep over what are essentially meaningless opinions I offer on the internet.  Cheers! 

 
 
zamboni said:
Used to like his game even as a Rangers fan.
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help me out here ... used to be Jim Gordon and "Big Whistle" Chadwick when i first started watching on channel 9 ... that devolved into Rosen/Espo, Rosen/Davidson (excruciatingly awful) - but who was Marv's partner on the radio? 

he had a hard time with Sinasailo's name ... was always UHHHHHL-kuh sinn-UHHHH-syyy or some other butchering. 

kinda how Seaver was with Jerry Dybzinski (Jerry Duhh-binn-skee) or Andres Gallaraga (Ahhhn-dray Guhhh-LOGG-uhhh).

🤔

 
otb_lifer said:
help me out here ... used to be Jim Gordon and "Big Whistle" Chadwick when i first started watching on channel 9 ... that devolved into Rosen/Espo, Rosen/Davidson (excruciatingly awful) - but who was Marv's partner on the radio? 
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Think it was Sal “The Red Light” Messina.

 
Considering era Ovechkin is already the greatest goal scorer in hockey history.

But Gretzky is in the same tier is Jerry Rice and Tom Brady.

 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
Wayne had best career (by far) but I think Mario and Orr were better players. 
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I always had this sneaking suspicion watching them both in their primes that Lemieux was the better all-around player. I take him much more seriously as GOAT than others do, I think. I still think it's Gretzky, but Gally and I had sort of a debate about tiers back in the sports draft and I think Mario is in Wayne's tier, actually, because of the PPG noted and the eras in which they played. 

 
Without adjusting for era Connor McDavid is the best hockey player ever and it's not remotely close. 

"Of All Time" to me though requires sustained excellence over an extended period and by that measure it's Gretzky. I don't think he's the most skilled by any means but he had the greatest sustained excellence. 

I don't really get a Lemieux/Orr argument. Sure maybe they were more skilled but they didn't sustain it like Wayne did, Gretzky's peak is just as high, and if we want to bring it back to raw talent, again, Lemieux would never touch the puck even at his prime if forced to take the ice with McDavid. 

 
Dan Lambskin said:
Ovechkin might have a shot to pass him in Goals but Gretzky hands down the goat
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Ovechkin is the best goal scorer of all time adjusting for era. He may soon be without needing that adjustment but the fact he's challenging the all time record playing in an era where goal scoring is no small feat is an incredible acheivement. 

There's probably a case to be made for Ovie as the best ever if you say goals are the most important thing (they are) and factor in his physicality and special teams dominance and the era he plays in. 

It's still Gretzky though. 

 
zamboni said:
Finnish GOAT, with all due respect to Jari Kurri.
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I just came in to mention Kurri.  I disagree.  Kurri carried Wayne fwiw.

Defense, playoff numbers, and team success were big in Kurri's favor.  It's super close in reality.  

 
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Northern Voice said:
Without adjusting for era Connor McDavid is the best hockey player ever and it's not remotely close. 

"Of All Time" to me though requires sustained excellence over an extended period and by that measure it's Gretzky. I don't think he's the most skilled by any means but he had the greatest sustained excellence. 

I don't really get a Lemieux/Orr argument. Sure maybe they were more skilled but they didn't sustain it like Wayne did, Gretzky's peak is just as high, and if we want to bring it back to raw talent, again, Lemieux would never touch the puck even at his prime if forced to take the ice with McDavid. 
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I would argue that Gretzky was the most skilled.  He may not have been the fastest or strongest, but he clearly was very highly skilled.  You don't score like he did by accident or happy circumstance.

 
Ovechkin is a Russian though and I still haven't got over the cold war so he wasn't considered. 

j/k, he is amazing and I love his enthusiasm for the game.

 
Foosball God said:
I would argue that Gretzky was the most skilled.  He may not have been the fastest or strongest, but he clearly was very highly skilled.  You don't score like he did by accident or happy circumstance.
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I think he was the smartest ever and had the best vision ever but there are plenty imo with more raw skill that because they didn't have the smarts and vision couldn't come close to the production. 

 
zamboni said:
Come on. Kurri was a terrific goal scorer, but without Gretzky his numbers would have been much lower. Gretzky fed everyone on those '80s Oilers teams and Kurri was the best goal scorer among them.
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How did he do when Gretzky left?  Like I said, Team success, defense, and playoff numbers seem to be the difference.  I would give it a tie, but Kurri slight edge. 

 
 
brun said:
Perhaps.

Not everyone uses the same criteria. Difficult to compare, different eras, different positions,  and Orr's career cut way too short by something that probably could have been more easily and competently addressed if he had been born a decade later. I just like Orr more from end to end on the ice, and from head to skates to fists. But, I grew up when we didn't always wear helmets and even most Lady Byng players could drop the gloves when needed.
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Just thought I'd mention that somewhere in my house I'm pretty sure I still have a copy of The Two Sides of Bobby Orr.

 
Northern Voice said:
Ovechkin is the best goal scorer of all time adjusting for era. He may soon be without needing that adjustment but the fact he's challenging the all time record playing in an era where goal scoring is no small feat is an incredible acheivement. 

There's probably a case to be made for Ovie as the best ever if you say goals are the most important thing (they are) and factor in his physicality and special teams dominance and the era he plays in. 

It's still Gretzky though. 
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Any conversation of the best goal scorers ever has to include Mike Bossy, who is still 1st all-time in goal per game.  Now, goals per game can be a fuzzy stat, as Bossy did not have a long career, so he didn't have a bunch of seasons later in his career to drag down his overall GPG average, unlike Gretzky.   Thinking of the best goal scorers I have seen since I start watching hockey in the early 80s, here is how many times each led the league in scoring:

Ovechkin - 9
Gretzky - 5
Hull - 3
Lemieux - 3
Bure - 3
Bossy - 2

So, Ovechkin definitely has an argument for being the greatest scorer ever, but player? Nah.  His lack of assists is glaring. Consider that he currently has 619. Gretzky, meanwhile, finished with 1,963. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
Any conversation of the best goal scorers ever has to include Mike Bossy, who is still 1st all-time in goal per game.  Now, goals per game can be a fuzzy stat, as Bossy did not have a long career, so he didn't have a bunch of seasons later in his career to drag down his overall GPG average, unlike Gretzky.   Thinking of the best goal scorers I have seen since I start watching hockey in the early 80s, here is how many times each led the league in scoring:

Ovechkin - 9
Gretzky - 5
Hull - 3
Lemieux - 3
Bure - 3
Bossy - 2

So, Ovechkin definitely has an argument for being the greatest scorer ever, but player? Nah.  His lack of assists is glaring. Consider that he currently has 619. Gretzky, meanwhile, finished with 1,963. 
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i cited the same parameters for Bossy during the sports draft of a few years ago.

when you talk of goal scoring bang for the buck, there was none better. 

legit "sniper"  

 
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