HOF Finalists (1 Viewer)

[Bri]

from contracosta

Defensive back Rod Woodson, defensive linemen Bruce Smith and John Randle and tight end Shannon Sharpe are among the 15 finalists for the Pro Football Hall of Fame, the only first-year eligible players to make the final round this year. Joining them will be two contributors: former commissioner Paul Tagliabue and Buffalo Bills owner Ralph Wilson, as well as two senior nominees selected last August by the Senior Committee: Claude Humphrey and Bob Hayes. Between four and seven candidates will be elected in the balloting that will take place in Tampa, Fla., on Jan. 31, the day before the Super Bowl. The field was narrowed by the Hall's 44-member board of selectors from 133 to 25 before reducing it to the final 15.Other finalists were defensive linemen Richard Dent and Cortez Kennedy, linebacker Derrick Thomas, wide receivers Cris Carter and Andre Reed, center Dermontti Dawson and guards Russ Grimm, Bob Kuechenberg and Randall McDaniel. Woodson played cornerback and safety with Pittsburgh (1987-96), the 49ers (1997), Baltimore (1998-2001) and the Raiders (2002-03).Dent played for Chicago (1983-93, 1995), the 49ers (1994), Indianapolis (1996) and Philadelphia (1997).Players with local ties not making the list included Ken Stabler, Ray Guy, Roger Craig, Kevin Greene, Lester Hayes, Charles Haley and Chris Doleman.

 

[Bri]

That first four seems real strong- Dent, Dawson, and Reed if we're picking 7

 

[David Yudkin]

That first four seems real strong- Dent, Dawson, and Reed if we're picking 7

Reed over Carter?

 

[Bri]

That first four seems real strong- Dent, Dawson, and Reed if we're picking 7

Reed over Carter?

yeah, Reed seems like a different era to me than Carter. Years wise it doesn't hash out but just a feeling from it all. A great 80s passing team wouldn't probably be so special in the current era. For me, for whatever reason, Reed leans more toward 80s while Carter more toward the current era.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Assuming the class has the max of seven inductees (which I think it should): Woodson, Smith, Sharpe (that should be a fun speech), Tags, Wilson, Carter, Thomas.

 

[David Yudkin]

That first four seems real strong- Dent, Dawson, and Reed if we're picking 7

Reed over Carter?

yeah, Reed seems like a different era to me than Carter. Years wise it doesn't hash out but just a feeling from it all. A great 80s passing team wouldn't probably be so special in the current era. For me, for whatever reason, Reed leans more toward 80s while Carter more toward the current era.

Both Reed and Carter played in 234 games. Carter ended up with 150 more receptions, 701 more yards, and 43 more TD. Of course, the Vikings weren't as successful as the Bills were.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

That first four seems real strong- Dent, Dawson, and Reed if we're picking 7

Reed over Carter?

yeah, Reed seems like a different era to me than Carter. Years wise it doesn't hash out but just a feeling from it all. A great 80s passing team wouldn't probably be so special in the current era. For me, for whatever reason, Reed leans more toward 80s while Carter more toward the current era.

Both Reed and Carter played in 234 games. Carter ended up with 150 more receptions, 701 more yards, and 43 more TD. Of course, the Vikings weren't as successful as the Bills were.

Both are well deserving. Reed's numbers aren't quite as impressive due to a lot of factors, but I will say he's still probably the best run-after-catch WR I've ever seen. Boldin is about the only WR comparable, IMO.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

from contracosta

Defensive back Rod Woodson, defensive linemen Bruce Smith and John Randle and tight end Shannon Sharpe are among the 15 finalists for the Pro Football Hall of Fame, the only first-year eligible players to make the final round this year. Joining them will be two contributors: former commissioner Paul Tagliabue and Buffalo Bills owner Ralph Wilson, as well as two senior nominees selected last August by the Senior Committee: Claude Humphrey and Bob Hayes. Between four and seven candidates will be elected in the balloting that will take place in Tampa, Fla., on Jan. 31, the day before the Super Bowl. The field was narrowed by the Hall's 44-member board of selectors from 133 to 25 before reducing it to the final 15.Other finalists were defensive linemen Richard Dent and Cortez Kennedy, linebacker Derrick Thomas, wide receivers Cris Carter and Andre Reed, center Dermontti Dawson and guards Russ Grimm, Bob Kuechenberg and Randall McDaniel. Woodson played cornerback and safety with Pittsburgh (1987-96), the 49ers (1997), Baltimore (1998-2001) and the Raiders (2002-03).Dent played for Chicago (1983-93, 1995), the 49ers (1994), Indianapolis (1996) and Philadelphia (1997).Players with local ties not making the list included Ken Stabler, Ray Guy, Roger Craig, Kevin Greene, Lester Hayes, Charles Haley and Chris Doleman.

Tough to choose between the following 10...I'll mark the "not this time, but eventually" guys with *...Rod WoodsonBruce Smith Shannon Sharpe *Paul TagliabueRalph WilsonRichard Dent *Derrick Thomas *Cris CarterAndre Reed *Russ Grimm

 

[dgreen]

from contracosta

Defensive back Rod Woodson, defensive linemen Bruce Smith and John Randle and tight end Shannon Sharpe are among the 15 finalists for the Pro Football Hall of Fame, the only first-year eligible players to make the final round this year. Joining them will be two contributors: former commissioner Paul Tagliabue and Buffalo Bills owner Ralph Wilson, as well as two senior nominees selected last August by the Senior Committee: Claude Humphrey and Bob Hayes. Between four and seven candidates will be elected in the balloting that will take place in Tampa, Fla., on Jan. 31, the day before the Super Bowl. The field was narrowed by the Hall's 44-member board of selectors from 133 to 25 before reducing it to the final 15.Other finalists were defensive linemen Richard Dent and Cortez Kennedy, linebacker Derrick Thomas, wide receivers Cris Carter and Andre Reed, center Dermontti Dawson and guards Russ Grimm, Bob Kuechenberg and Randall McDaniel. Woodson played cornerback and safety with Pittsburgh (1987-96), the 49ers (1997), Baltimore (1998-2001) and the Raiders (2002-03).Dent played for Chicago (1983-93, 1995), the 49ers (1994), Indianapolis (1996) and Philadelphia (1997).Players with local ties not making the list included Ken Stabler, Ray Guy, Roger Craig, Kevin Greene, Lester Hayes, Charles Haley and Chris Doleman.

Tough to choose between the following 10...I'll mark the "not this time, but eventually" guys with *...Rod WoodsonBruce Smith Shannon Sharpe *Paul TagliabueRalph WilsonRichard Dent *Derrick Thomas *Cris CarterAndre Reed *Russ Grimm

No chance Shannon Sharpe has to wait. Woodson, Sharpe, and Smith are locks. I would think Carter has a really, really good shot this year. Senior Committee selections usually get in, so Humphrey and Hayes have a good chance.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Woodson, Smith, and Sharpe are locks. I think Cris Carter should be as well. I think either Tags or Ralph Wilson will get in.

I think Derrick Thomas deserves to be in. I also think both Dermonti Dawson and Randall McDaniel should be in too. Heck, I think Ray Guy should be in.

 

[Yitbos69]

from contracosta

Defensive back Rod Woodson, defensive linemen Bruce Smith and John Randle and tight end Shannon Sharpe are among the 15 finalists for the Pro Football Hall of Fame, the only first-year eligible players to make the final round this year. Joining them will be two contributors: former commissioner Paul Tagliabue and Buffalo Bills owner Ralph Wilson, as well as two senior nominees selected last August by the Senior Committee: Claude Humphrey and Bob Hayes. Between four and seven candidates will be elected in the balloting that will take place in Tampa, Fla., on Jan. 31, the day before the Super Bowl. The field was narrowed by the Hall's 44-member board of selectors from 133 to 25 before reducing it to the final 15.Other finalists were defensive linemen Richard Dent and Cortez Kennedy, linebacker Derrick Thomas, wide receivers Cris Carter and Andre Reed, center Dermontti Dawson and guards Russ Grimm, Bob Kuechenberg and Randall McDaniel. Woodson played cornerback and safety with Pittsburgh (1987-96), the 49ers (1997), Baltimore (1998-2001) and the Raiders (2002-03).Dent played for Chicago (1983-93, 1995), the 49ers (1994), Indianapolis (1996) and Philadelphia (1997).Players with local ties not making the list included Ken Stabler, Ray Guy, Roger Craig, Kevin Greene, Lester Hayes, Charles Haley and Chris Doleman.

Tough to choose between the following 10...I'll mark the "not this time, but eventually" guys with *...Rod WoodsonBruce Smith Shannon Sharpe *Paul TagliabueRalph WilsonRichard Dent *Derrick Thomas *Cris CarterAndre Reed *Russ Grimm

No chance Shannon Sharpe has to wait. Woodson, Sharpe, and Smith are locks. I would think Carter has a really, really good shot this year. Senior Committee selections usually get in, so Humphrey and Hayes have a good chance.

I think Grimm has a real good shot

 

[Tau837]

There are some misconceptions in this thread. No more than 5 candidates other than the senior candidates can be inducted in one class. Some people are picking 7, not including the senior candidates.

I think Woodson, Smith, Sharpe, Carter, and McDaniel would be a solid class, to go along with the veteran committee players, if any.

And I think Tagliabue, Dent, Randle, and Derrick Thomas should also be on the short list.

I wonder how long Tagliabue will have to wait... I kind of thought he'd be first ballot, but he'd have to bump either Carter or McDaniel to make it here.

With regard to the senior nominees: I really don't see Bob Hayes as deserving, and I hope he doesn't make it. I don't know anything about Humphrey.

And if I recall correctly, Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Emmitt Smith, and Aeneas Williams all become eligible next year... not sure who else, but I'd say Rice and Smith should be first ballot (duh), and the other two should be very strong contenders... so a number of these deserving candidates are going to have to wait until 2011... and Deion, Faulk, and Bettis become eligible in 2011... and so on.

 

[Tau837]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

 

[David Yudkin]

Given that Terrell Davis has not gotten a lot of love in his first few years of eligibility (and with a slew of qualified guys coming up in the next few years), are his chances of induction through the regular panel almost non-existent?

 

[Chaka]

Given that Terrell Davis has not gotten a lot of love in his first few years of eligibility (and with a slew of qualified guys coming up in the next few years), are his chances of induction through the regular panel almost non-existent?

Probably.

 

[moondog]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

Dawson was on the All Decade team during his career and was viewed as one of the most athletic players at his position. Selection to the HOF does not mean he is the best C of all time but the argument can be made that he was the best center of his time.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

This was a bad man that did bad things...

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/publi...gallery_600.jpg

 

[Tau837]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

Dawson was on the All Decade team during his career and was viewed as one of the most athletic players at his position. Selection to the HOF does not mean he is the best C of all time but the argument can be made that he was the best center of his time.

I know Dawson was a great player. And he probably deserves to make the HOF, though I personally have a hard time assessing offensive linemen due to the fact that there is little objective data to go on.I did want to point out, though, that being the best center of his time does not mean he should make the HOF. In theory, it's possible a given era is just weak at a certain position, and no one from that position is worthy. Look at safeties, for example. There are only 9 of them in from the modern era, and some of them also played corner. I think there is no one in since Lott, so there are some "best of their time" safeties who aren't in and probably won't get in.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

That first four seems real strong- Dent, Dawson, and Reed if we're picking 7

Reed over Carter?

yeah, Reed seems like a different era to me than Carter. Years wise it doesn't hash out but just a feeling from it all. A great 80s passing team wouldn't probably be so special in the current era. For me, for whatever reason, Reed leans more toward 80s while Carter more toward the current era.

Both Reed and Carter played in 234 games. Carter ended up with 150 more receptions, 701 more yards, and 43 more TD. Of course, the Vikings weren't as successful as the Bills were.

playing most of his career in a dome vs playing outdoors in the northeast likely impacted their numbers as well.but, I'd still vote Carter in over Reed.

 

[SR388]

Guy in blue are my selections. I don't like Tags and Wilson at the expense of a player, but both will get in at some point.

Rod Woodson

Paul Tagliabue

Ralph Wilson

Bob Hayes :IBTL:

Richard Dent

Cortez Kennedy

Derrick Thomas

Cris Carter :IBTL:

Andre Reed

Dermontti Dawson

Russ Grimm

Bob Kuechenberg

Randall McDaniel.

I think all three of these guys are deserving, and I'm shocked Lester Hayes isn't already in:

Lester Hayes, Charles Haley and Chris Doleman.

 

[SR388]

Guy in blue are my selections. I don't like Tags and Wilson at the expense of a player, but both will get in at some point.

Rod Woodson

Paul Tagliabue

Ralph Wilson

Bob Hayes :IBTL:

Richard Dent

Cortez Kennedy

Derrick Thomas

Cris Carter :IBTL:

Andre Reed

Dermontti Dawson

Russ Grimm

Bob Kuechenberg

Randall McDaniel.

I think all three of these guys are deserving, and I'm shocked Lester Hayes isn't already in:

Lester Hayes, Charles Haley and Chris Doleman.

 

[dgreen]

Guy in blue are my selections. I don't like Tags and Wilson at the expense of a player, but both will get in at some point.

Rod Woodson

Paul Tagliabue

Ralph Wilson

Bob Hayes :IBTL:

Richard Dent

Cortez Kennedy

Derrick Thomas

Cris Carter :IBTL:

Andre Reed

Dermontti Dawson

Russ Grimm

Bob Kuechenberg

Randall McDaniel.

I think all three of these guys are deserving, and I'm shocked Lester Hayes isn't already in:

Lester Hayes, Charles Haley and Chris Doleman.

Only 5 non-Senior Committee guys can get in and you have six. Also, you're missing Bruce Smith.

 

[the UFFRM]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I wholeheartedly agree. DD was a dominant force in the game at that time.

 

[Tau837]

Guy in blue are my selections. I don't like Tags and Wilson at the expense of a player, but both will get in at some point.

Rod Woodson

Paul Tagliabue

Ralph Wilson

Bob Hayes

Richard Dent

Cortez Kennedy

Derrick Thomas

Cris Carter :IBTL:

Andre Reed

Dermontti Dawson

Russ Grimm

Bob Kuechenberg

Randall McDaniel.

I think all three of these guys are deserving, and I'm shocked Lester Hayes isn't already in:

Lester Hayes, Charles Haley and Chris Doleman.

You chose 6 non senior nominees, and only 5 can be selected for induction.You did choose Bob Hayes, who is a senior nominee... though I'm very surprised to see anyone characterize Bob Hayes as a lock. I don't think he is worthy.

 

[Tau837]

Guy in blue are my selections. I don't like Tags and Wilson at the expense of a player, but both will get in at some point.

Rod Woodson

Paul Tagliabue

Ralph Wilson

Bob Hayes :IBTL:

Richard Dent

Cortez Kennedy

Derrick Thomas

Cris Carter :IBTL:

Andre Reed

Dermontti Dawson

Russ Grimm

Bob Kuechenberg

Randall McDaniel.

I think all three of these guys are deserving, and I'm shocked Lester Hayes isn't already in:

Lester Hayes, Charles Haley and Chris Doleman.

Only 5 non-Senior Committee guys can get in and you have six. Also, you're missing Bruce Smith.

Beat me to it. You are also missing Sharpe.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

These guys seem like the 4 strongest:

Bruce Smith

Rod Woodson

Shannon Sharpe

Cris Carter

I suppose they could make Sharpe wait a year, but the other 3 seem like locks to me.

After that, I could see Tagliabue getting the 5th spot.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

These guys seem like the 4 strongest:Bruce SmithRod WoodsonShannon SharpeCris CarterI suppose they could make Sharpe wait a year, but the other 3 seem like locks to me.After that, I could see Tagliabue getting the 5th spot.

I think those 4 are locks, too. I hope Tags doesn't make it, though. There are too many top notch players in this pool. Paul can wait, IMO. Same with Wilson. I've been pushing for him to get in for many years now, but I hope he doesn't make it in this year, just because he kept Jauron.

 

[David Yudkin]

These guys seem like the 4 strongest:Bruce SmithRod WoodsonShannon SharpeCris CarterI suppose they could make Sharpe wait a year, but the other 3 seem like locks to me.After that, I could see Tagliabue getting the 5th spot.

IIRC, Carter didn't make it last year, so I would be hard pressed to suggest he should be considered a lock when he was already passed over once. While I certainly think he should and will get inducted, who knows what thoughts crazed voters will have . . .

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

These guys seem like the 4 strongest:Bruce SmithRod WoodsonShannon SharpeCris CarterI suppose they could make Sharpe wait a year, but the other 3 seem like locks to me.After that, I could see Tagliabue getting the 5th spot.

IIRC, Carter didn't make it last year, so I would be hard pressed to suggest he should be considered a lock when he was already passed over once. While I certainly think he should and will get inducted, who knows what thoughts crazed voters will have . . .

I thought he was a lock last year. Only reason I can guess that he was left off was because they changed their mind on Monk and didn't want to put 2 WRs in during the same year.His statistics should make him a slam dunk though. Just like Thurman Thomas was always a lock to get in, even though they made him wait a year for no good reason.I think the chances of Carter getting in this year have to be very very high. While not 100%, it's likely in the high 90s.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

My picks:

Bruce Smith

Rod Woodson

Shannon Sharpe (Donkey - obvious choice)

Cris Carter

Derrick Thomas (wreaked havoc on my Donkeys)

Tags

Solid Class

 

[Tau837]

My picks:Bruce SmithRod WoodsonShannon Sharpe (Donkey - obvious choice)Cris CarterDerrick Thomas (wreaked havoc on my Donkeys)TagsSolid Class

You can only pick 5 of the candidates that are not senior nominees, so you have one too many.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

My picks:

Bruce Smith

Rod Woodson

Shannon Sharpe (Donkey - obvious choice)

Cris Carter

Derrick Thomas (wreaked havoc on my Donkeys, I still remember his 7 sacks in a game in the early 90's)

Tags

Solid Class

You can only pick 5 of the candidates that are not senior nominees, so you have one too many.

Yep, my bad...Drop Tags out...he can wait anyway.

 

[stevegamer]

I'd hope for:

Humphrey

Smith

Woodson

Sharpe

two of Kuechenberg/Dawson/Grimm/Wilson/McDaniel

- I doubt Carter willfail to make it in, but a good class with no QB/RB/WR players is good for the Hall, in my opinion, as it addresses imbalances.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

I said he was arguably the best, and is in the discussion. 6 consecutive 1st team All-Pro selections (not Pro Bowl) at a position that names only 1 player All-Pro is pretty impressive. In other words, he was the single best player at his position for 6 straight years, and there aren't a whole hell of a lot of players about whom you can make that statement.

 

[Chaka]

I imagine Ralph Wilson will make it on the Henry Fonda premise.

 

[Tom Servo]

I imagine Ralph Wilson will make it on the Henry Fonda premise.

There's an "On Golden Pond" joke in here somewhere...

 

[massraider]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

Dawson was on the All Decade team during his career and was viewed as one of the most athletic players at his position. Selection to the HOF does not mean he is the best C of all time but the argument can be made that he was the best center of his time.

I know Dawson was a great player. And he probably deserves to make the HOF, though I personally have a hard time assessing offensive linemen due to the fact that there is little objective data to go on.I did want to point out, though, that being the best center of his time does not mean he should make the HOF. In theory, it's possible a given era is just weak at a certain position, and no one from that position is worthy. Look at safeties, for example. There are only 9 of them in from the modern era, and some of them also played corner. I think there is no one in since Lott, so there are some "best of their time" safeties who aren't in and probably won't get in.

Part of the reason the Hall is nonsense to me, is the lack of interior linemen, and the overabundance of skill players in the Hall. Dermontti Dawson was a much more dominant player than someone like Michael Irvin. The number of WRs in the Hall is a complete joke.You bring up safeties. There's a reason safeties aren't voted in any more. The game has changed, the DBs have had their teeth removed by rules promoting offense, and they don't have the INT numbers anymore. And every time someone brings up safeties, there's always some WR with flashy stats that the voters would rather allow in, and they will use career numbers to boost their case. Which is another joke, because going by career numbers, you could vote in 3 WRs a year for the next 5 years. These WR standards need to be raised, because the numbers that got a guy in 40 years ago, are just good nowadays, not all-time.

 

[Tau837]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

I said he was arguably the best, and is in the discussion. 6 consecutive 1st team All-Pro selections (not Pro Bowl) at a position that names only 1 player All-Pro is pretty impressive. In other words, he was the single best player at his position for 6 straight years, and there aren't a whole hell of a lot of players about whom you can make that statement.

Yes, I am aware of Dawson's 6 straight 1st Team All Pro Selections.Mel Hein had 5 1st Team All Pro selections, 3 2nd Team All Pro selections and 1 NFL MVP.Jim Otto was 1st Team All Pro 10 times, including 6 straight seasons and 10 of 11 seasons. And he was 2nd Team All Pro twice.Dwight Stephenson was 1st Team All Pro 4 times and 2nd Team All Pro once, but he only played 8 seasons.Mike Webster was 1st Team All Pro 5 times and 2nd Team All Pro once... and was a member of 4 Super Bowl champion teams.I don't see how it's possible to argue he was better than Hein or Otto, and IMO it's a stretch to say he was better than Webster. Stephenson is more of a toss-up, considering he played only 8 seasons and was 1st Team All Pro in his last 4.ETA: I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the HOF. I'm just arguing the best of all time statement.

 

[buster c]

I imagine Ralph Wilson will make it on the Henry Fonda premise.

There's an "On Golden Pond" joke in here somewhere...

Every founding member of the AFL should be locks for the Hall. Sorry...should already be in the Hall. I hope Ralph Wilson gets in while he is still alive.

 

[Bri]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

I said he was arguably the best, and is in the discussion. 6 consecutive 1st team All-Pro selections (not Pro Bowl) at a position that names only 1 player All-Pro is pretty impressive. In other words, he was the single best player at his position for 6 straight years, and there aren't a whole hell of a lot of players about whom you can make that statement.

Yes, I am aware of Dawson's 6 straight 1st Team All Pro Selections.Mel Hein had 5 1st Team All Pro selections, 3 2nd Team All Pro selections and 1 NFL MVP.Jim Otto was 1st Team All Pro 10 times, including 6 straight seasons and 10 of 11 seasons. And he was 2nd Team All Pro twice.Dwight Stephenson was 1st Team All Pro 4 times and 2nd Team All Pro once, but he only played 8 seasons.Mike Webster was 1st Team All Pro 5 times and 2nd Team All Pro once... and was a member of 4 Super Bowl champion teams.I don't see how it's possible to argue he was better than Hein or Otto, and IMO it's a stretch to say he was better than Webster. Stephenson is more of a toss-up, considering he played only 8 seasons and was 1st Team All Pro in his last 4.ETA: I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the HOF. I'm just arguing the best of all time statement.

the Steelers oWned the Center position voting for such a long time going from one great to the next. I wonder if any gems have been forgotten because they didn't play C for the Steelers but for another team.

 

[Tanner9919]

That first four seems real strong- Dent, Dawson, and Reed if we're picking 7

Reed over Carter?

yeah, Reed over Carter, but Derrick Thomas over BOTH of them. DT was special, an all-time great at his position.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

I said he was arguably the best, and is in the discussion. 6 consecutive 1st team All-Pro selections (not Pro Bowl) at a position that names only 1 player All-Pro is pretty impressive. In other words, he was the single best player at his position for 6 straight years, and there aren't a whole hell of a lot of players about whom you can make that statement.

Yes, I am aware of Dawson's 6 straight 1st Team All Pro Selections.Mel Hein had 5 1st Team All Pro selections, 3 2nd Team All Pro selections and 1 NFL MVP.

Jim Otto was 1st Team All Pro 10 times, including 6 straight seasons and 10 of 11 seasons. And he was 2nd Team All Pro twice.

Dwight Stephenson was 1st Team All Pro 4 times and 2nd Team All Pro once, but he only played 8 seasons.

Mike Webster was 1st Team All Pro 5 times and 2nd Team All Pro once... and was a member of 4 Super Bowl champion teams.

I don't see how it's possible to argue he was better than Hein or Otto, and IMO it's a stretch to say he was better than Webster. Stephenson is more of a toss-up, considering he played only 8 seasons and was 1st Team All Pro in his last 4.

ETA: I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the HOF. I'm just arguing the best of all time statement.

I didn't say he was the best, I said he was arguably the best and belonged in the discussion. Clearly, he does - we're having it. He was more dominant than Stephenson. Hein and Otto played in a different era. As a Steelers fan, he didn't play as long as Webster, but was just as good. I'd put him at worst the third or fourth best player of all-time at his position, which to me, warrants a HOF berth.

 

[Sinrman]

These guys seem like the 4 strongest:Bruce SmithRod WoodsonShannon SharpeCris CarterI suppose they could make Sharpe wait a year, but the other 3 seem like locks to me.After that, I could see Tagliabue getting the 5th spot.

Exactly my thoughts. Everyone was missing Tag. He'll definitely get in, and I'll bet this year, too...

 

[Chaka]

These guys seem like the 4 strongest:Bruce SmithRod WoodsonShannon SharpeCris CarterI suppose they could make Sharpe wait a year, but the other 3 seem like locks to me.After that, I could see Tagliabue getting the 5th spot.

Exactly my thoughts. Everyone was missing Tag. He'll definitely get in, and I'll bet this year, too...

I am not certain that Tags is a lock. The current state of the CBA he negotiated may weigh heavily on that final decision.

 

[SR388]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

Dawson was on the All Decade team during his career and was viewed as one of the most athletic players at his position.

Selection to the HOF does not mean he is the best C of all time but the argument can be made that he was the best center of his time.

I know Dawson was a great player. And he probably deserves to make the HOF, though I personally have a hard time assessing offensive linemen due to the fact that there is little objective data to go on.I did want to point out, though, that being the best center of his time does not mean he should make the HOF. In theory, it's possible a given era is just weak at a certain position, and no one from that position is worthy. Look at safeties, for example. There are only 9 of them in from the modern era, and some of them also played corner. I think there is no one in since Lott, so there are some "best of their time" safeties who aren't in and probably won't get in.

Part of the reason the Hall is nonsense to me, is the lack of interior linemen, and the overabundance of skill players in the Hall. Dermontti Dawson was a much more dominant player than someone like Michael Irvin. The number of WRs in the Hall is a complete joke.

You bring up safeties. There's a reason safeties aren't voted in any more. The game has changed, the DBs have had their teeth removed by rules promoting offense, and they don't have the INT numbers anymore. And every time someone brings up safeties, there's always some WR with flashy stats that the voters would rather allow in, and they will use career numbers to boost their case. Which is another joke, because going by career numbers, you could vote in 3 WRs a year for the next 5 years. These WR standards need to be raised, because the numbers that got a guy in 40 years ago, are just good nowadays, not all-time.

So F'n tired of people saying Michael Irvin wasn't a dominant player. Every single DB knew the slant was coming on 3rd down, yet nobody could stop him. Ask Darrel Green how bad Irvin was? He #### on Green for 10 years. The same Darrel Green who is already in the HOF. Career cut short due to injury. Played on a run 1st team. GREAT, AWESOME teamate and leader. Off the field he had troubles, so did a lot of players.

That Dallas DA had it out for Irvin and it was well documented. You could bust over half of the NFL if you followed them around like they did Irvin.

Dermontti Dawson was a great player. Very dominant and probably deserves consideration. Odd you have to #### on Michael Irvin to prove your point.

 

[Chaka]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

Dawson was on the All Decade team during his career and was viewed as one of the most athletic players at his position.

Selection to the HOF does not mean he is the best C of all time but the argument can be made that he was the best center of his time.

I know Dawson was a great player. And he probably deserves to make the HOF, though I personally have a hard time assessing offensive linemen due to the fact that there is little objective data to go on.I did want to point out, though, that being the best center of his time does not mean he should make the HOF. In theory, it's possible a given era is just weak at a certain position, and no one from that position is worthy. Look at safeties, for example. There are only 9 of them in from the modern era, and some of them also played corner. I think there is no one in since Lott, so there are some "best of their time" safeties who aren't in and probably won't get in.

Part of the reason the Hall is nonsense to me, is the lack of interior linemen, and the overabundance of skill players in the Hall. Dermontti Dawson was a much more dominant player than someone like Michael Irvin. The number of WRs in the Hall is a complete joke.

You bring up safeties. There's a reason safeties aren't voted in any more. The game has changed, the DBs have had their teeth removed by rules promoting offense, and they don't have the INT numbers anymore. And every time someone brings up safeties, there's always some WR with flashy stats that the voters would rather allow in, and they will use career numbers to boost their case. Which is another joke, because going by career numbers, you could vote in 3 WRs a year for the next 5 years. These WR standards need to be raised, because the numbers that got a guy in 40 years ago, are just good nowadays, not all-time.

So F'n tired of people saying Michael Irvin wasn't a dominant player. Every single DB knew the slant was coming on 3rd down, yet nobody could stop him. Ask Darrel Green how bad Irvin was? He #### on Green for 10 years. The same Darrel Green who is already in the HOF. Career cut short due to injury. Played on a run 1st team. GREAT, AWESOME teamate and leader. Off the field he had troubles, so did a lot of players.

That Dallas DA had it out for Irvin and it was well documented. You could bust over half of the NFL if you followed them around like they did Irvin.

Dermontti Dawson was a great player. Very dominant and probably deserves consideration. Odd you have to #### on Michael Irvin to prove your point.

A great teammate when he wasn't getting busted for cocaine and prostitutes, or when he wasn't throwing temper tantrums (and trashcans) because they hired the new head coach, or because he didn't get the ball, or when he wasn't, y'know, stabbing his teammates in the neck.He was an above average, maybe even a good receiver (if you want to belabor it I am willing to conced that he was very good) but no way in heck was he HoF caliber. Irvin being inducted to the HoF was as big of a joke as Swanny getting inducted and I am a huge fan of Swann.

 

[SR388]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

Dawson was on the All Decade team during his career and was viewed as one of the most athletic players at his position.

Selection to the HOF does not mean he is the best C of all time but the argument can be made that he was the best center of his time.

I know Dawson was a great player. And he probably deserves to make the HOF, though I personally have a hard time assessing offensive linemen due to the fact that there is little objective data to go on.I did want to point out, though, that being the best center of his time does not mean he should make the HOF. In theory, it's possible a given era is just weak at a certain position, and no one from that position is worthy. Look at safeties, for example. There are only 9 of them in from the modern era, and some of them also played corner. I think there is no one in since Lott, so there are some "best of their time" safeties who aren't in and probably won't get in.

Part of the reason the Hall is nonsense to me, is the lack of interior linemen, and the overabundance of skill players in the Hall. Dermontti Dawson was a much more dominant player than someone like Michael Irvin. The number of WRs in the Hall is a complete joke.

You bring up safeties. There's a reason safeties aren't voted in any more. The game has changed, the DBs have had their teeth removed by rules promoting offense, and they don't have the INT numbers anymore. And every time someone brings up safeties, there's always some WR with flashy stats that the voters would rather allow in, and they will use career numbers to boost their case. Which is another joke, because going by career numbers, you could vote in 3 WRs a year for the next 5 years. These WR standards need to be raised, because the numbers that got a guy in 40 years ago, are just good nowadays, not all-time.

So F'n tired of people saying Michael Irvin wasn't a dominant player. Every single DB knew the slant was coming on 3rd down, yet nobody could stop him. Ask Darrel Green how bad Irvin was? He #### on Green for 10 years. The same Darrel Green who is already in the HOF. Career cut short due to injury. Played on a run 1st team. GREAT, AWESOME teamate and leader. Off the field he had troubles, so did a lot of players.

That Dallas DA had it out for Irvin and it was well documented. You could bust over half of the NFL if you followed them around like they did Irvin.

Dermontti Dawson was a great player. Very dominant and probably deserves consideration. Odd you have to #### on Michael Irvin to prove your point.

A great teammate when he wasn't getting busted for cocaine and prostitutes, or when he wasn't throwing temper tantrums (and trashcans) because they hired the new head coach, or because he didn't get the ball, or when he wasn't, y'know, stabbing his teammates in the neck.

I already covered this in the statement above. Do you think the large majority of players in the NFL don't also do that ####? I can a minimum of 10 players on the Redskins and Ravens who abuse drugs, and that's just the players I know of in this area. That doesn't even begin to cover the players who have procured the services of working girls. The Dallas DA had it out for Irvin and it was well known. You can pretend Irvin is in the minority all you like, but you would be dead wrong.

He was an above average, maybe even a good receiver (if you want to belabor it I am willing to conced that he was very good) but no way in heck was he HoF caliber. Irvin being inducted to the HoF was as big of a joke as Swanny getting inducted and I am a huge fan of Swann.

Comparing Irvin to Swann is ludicrous and makes you look foolish. Not even in the same ballpark.

 

[Chaka]

It's time to recognize Dermontti Dawson. Guy was arguably the best C of all-time (if not, he's at least in the conversation.) Too much position bias.

I agree Dawson was great but the best C of all time? I don't see that. What makes him better than guys like Hein, Otto, Stephenson, and Webster? And I'm sure I've forgotten someone.

Dawson was on the All Decade team during his career and was viewed as one of the most athletic players at his position.

Selection to the HOF does not mean he is the best C of all time but the argument can be made that he was the best center of his time.

I know Dawson was a great player. And he probably deserves to make the HOF, though I personally have a hard time assessing offensive linemen due to the fact that there is little objective data to go on.I did want to point out, though, that being the best center of his time does not mean he should make the HOF. In theory, it's possible a given era is just weak at a certain position, and no one from that position is worthy. Look at safeties, for example. There are only 9 of them in from the modern era, and some of them also played corner. I think there is no one in since Lott, so there are some "best of their time" safeties who aren't in and probably won't get in.

Part of the reason the Hall is nonsense to me, is the lack of interior linemen, and the overabundance of skill players in the Hall. Dermontti Dawson was a much more dominant player than someone like Michael Irvin. The number of WRs in the Hall is a complete joke.

You bring up safeties. There's a reason safeties aren't voted in any more. The game has changed, the DBs have had their teeth removed by rules promoting offense, and they don't have the INT numbers anymore. And every time someone brings up safeties, there's always some WR with flashy stats that the voters would rather allow in, and they will use career numbers to boost their case. Which is another joke, because going by career numbers, you could vote in 3 WRs a year for the next 5 years. These WR standards need to be raised, because the numbers that got a guy in 40 years ago, are just good nowadays, not all-time.

So F'n tired of people saying Michael Irvin wasn't a dominant player. Every single DB knew the slant was coming on 3rd down, yet nobody could stop him. Ask Darrel Green how bad Irvin was? He #### on Green for 10 years. The same Darrel Green who is already in the HOF. Career cut short due to injury. Played on a run 1st team. GREAT, AWESOME teamate and leader. Off the field he had troubles, so did a lot of players.

That Dallas DA had it out for Irvin and it was well documented. You could bust over half of the NFL if you followed them around like they did Irvin.

Dermontti Dawson was a great player. Very dominant and probably deserves consideration. Odd you have to #### on Michael Irvin to prove your point.

A great teammate when he wasn't getting busted for cocaine and prostitutes, or when he wasn't throwing temper tantrums (and trashcans) because they hired the new head coach, or because he didn't get the ball, or when he wasn't, y'know, stabbing his teammates in the neck.

I already covered this in the statement above. Do you think the large majority of players in the NFL don't also do that ####? I can a minimum of 10 players on the Redskins and Ravens who abuse drugs, and that's just the players I know of in this area. That doesn't even begin to cover the players who have procured the services of working girls. The Dallas DA had it out for Irvin and it was well known. You can pretend Irvin is in the minority all you like, but you would be dead wrong.

He was an above average, maybe even a good receiver (if you want to belabor it I am willing to conced that he was very good) but no way in heck was he HoF caliber. Irvin being inducted to the HoF was as big of a joke as Swanny getting inducted and I am a huge fan of Swann.

Comparing Irvin to Swann is ludicrous and makes you look foolish. Not even in the same ballpark.

Even if I concede that the DA was after him, which I do not, and for which you have provided no evidence, doesn't mean that he wasn't caught with coke and hookers in a hotel room. He was. And the argument that everyone else does it is extremely ignorant.And the DA did not make him throw vicious tantrums when Switzer was hired nor did the DA make him intentionally cut a teammate in the neck with a pair of scissors.

I compare him to Swann because they both made the HoF based on their team success not on individual achievement. Swann was also a game changer, in a much different way than Irvin, who made clutch plays when his team needed him to but, like Irvin, he was not a HoF receiver.

He's in, so just be happy with that fact, and I will try to ignore the fact that his inclusion lessens the entire HoF.

 

[SR388]

Even if I concede that the DA was after him, which I do not, and for which you have provided no evidence, doesn't mean that he wasn't caught with coke and hookers in a hotel room. He was. And the argument that everyone else does it is extremely ignorant.

Fair enough. I just don't hold it against him more then any other player. Drug use and prostitution is common in the NFL.

And the DA did not make him throw vicious tantrums when Switzer was hired nor did the DA make him intentionally cut a teammate in the neck with a pair of scissors.

I cannot defend the scissors incident. But since you ask for proof of the DA having a hard on for Irvin, I'm going to have to see your proof of this. Do you have proof he did indeed stab a teammate?

I compare him to Swann because they both made the HoF based on their team success not on individual achievement. Swann was also a game changer, in a much different way than Irvin, who made clutch plays when his team needed him to but, like Irvin, he was not a HoF receiver.

I don't agree with this. Swann made it because of a few highlight catches in the playoffs. He had very little reagular season sucess, but did excell in the playoffs. Irvin excelled in the regular season, playoffs, and Superbowl.

He's in, so just be happy with that fact, and I will try to ignore the fact that his inclusion lessens the entire HoF.

Here are the curret HOF WR's:

Lance Alworth 1962-1972Raymond Berry 1955-1967Fred Biletnikoff 1965-1978Tom Fears 1948-1956Elroy (Crazylegs) Hirsch (also HB) 1946-1956Michael Irvin 1988-1999Charlie Joiner 1969-1986Steve Largent 1976-1989Dante Lavelli 1946-1956James Lofton 1978-1993 Don Maynard 1958, 1960-1973Tommy McDonald 1957-1968Bobby Mitchell (also HB) 1958-1968Art Monk 1980-1995Pete Pihos 1947-1955John Stallworth 1974-1987Lynn Swann 1974-1982Charley Taylor (also HB) 1964-1975, 1977Paul Warfield 1964-1977

How many of those guys would you take over Irvin?