Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
HOF Question (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter tikitime
- Start date
Tanner9919
Footballguy
first of all, Kelly was named to 5 pro bowls, not 4. didn't play in the 5th..at the time he went into the hall of fame he had one of the highest career passer ratings..I think many people view Kelly as a great QB,who ran into 2 SB juggernauts: Redskins, and Dallas (2x)the Giants game could have gone either way..there was No WAY the Bills were beating the Redskins, and they had the slimmest of hopes against the great Cowboys teams of the early 90's...only 3 players in NFL history reached 30,000 yard mark faster than Kelly. In 11 seasons, he led the Bills to the playoffs 8 times, of those 8, they played in 4 SB's..at the time of his retirement,his passer rating ranked 6th all time, and only second to those QBs already in the HOF, and he also ranked second in number of seasons throwing for MORE than 3,000 yards.he ranks 2nd all time in post season passing yards..and, he spent a few seasons in the USFL BEFORE coming to the NFL...he has a higher lifetime comp% than Marino and a higher passer rating than Elway.yeah,there's no comparison..Boomer was a great stat compiler, while Kelly was a champion, he won 4 straight championship games. that is unbelievable!
GregR_2
Footballguy
The Hall of Fame is about the career the player had. It isn't about who might have had the better career under different circumstances. Arguments like those above have more to do about the quality of the individual player than about if he had a HoF worthy career.
Tau837
Footballguy
What personal attack? You seem to be a bit overly sensitive.You were already going down the wrong path about Moon, as I posted previously, and then you compounded it by adding Young in there, which is absurd. I also think Aikman is much better than you give him credit for. And I think comparing QBs across eras, like comparing Bradshaw to Kelly, is apples and oranges. Basically, I disagree with your entire take.switz said:Glad you had something to add.Generally I respect your posts JWB, but if anyone should be embarrassed, it's you. Sinking to a personal attack because you disagree? That's pathetic.What do you disagree with?
EDIT to clarify something. I would rank Kelly slightly above Moon and Moon above Aikman. So I disagree with your ranking of Kelly above Young and Bradshaw from this post. But I also disagree generally with how you characterize Moon and Aikman, even though I agree that Kelly ranks above them.
Last edited by a moderator:
KellyNo. of seasons over 3500 yds.- 2No. of seasons over 24 TDs (1.5 a game)- 2No. of seasons over 16 (1 a game) picks-8Boomer-No. of seasons over 3400 yds.- 6No. of seasons over 24 TDs- 5No. of seasons over 16 picks- 4Seemed like Kelly had a whole bunch of years where he was clearly just average of the 22TD/18Int variety. Looking at is career critically, it just wasn't that impressive. Unless you say he is the reason the Bills got to so many SBs. I'm not certain he was.first of all, Kelly was named to 5 pro bowls, not 4. didn't play in the 5th..at the time he went into the hall of fame he had one of the highest career passer ratings..I think many people view Kelly as a great QB,who ran into 2 SB juggernauts: Redskins, and Dallas (2x)the Giants game could have gone either way..there was No WAY the Bills were beating the Redskins, and they had the slimmest of hopes against the great Cowboys teams of the early 90's...only 3 players in NFL history reached 30,000 yard mark faster than Kelly. In 11 seasons, he led the Bills to the playoffs 8 times, of those 8, they played in 4 SB's..at the time of his retirement,his passer rating ranked 6th all time, and only second to those QBs already in the HOF, and he also ranked second in number of seasons throwing for MORE than 3,000 yards.he ranks 2nd all time in post season passing yards..and, he spent a few seasons in the USFL BEFORE coming to the NFL...he has a higher lifetime comp% than Marino and a higher passer rating than Elway.yeah,there's no comparison..Boomer was a great stat compiler, while Kelly was a champion, he won 4 straight championship games. that is unbelievable!
Last edited by a moderator:
Fair point. But it seems Kelly got to the HOF because of his SB appearances. Without these other guys, maybe he doesn't get there. I guess I'm just thinking if you have to think about it, he shouldn't be there.
houndirish
Footballguy
If we're going to lobby for Boomer Esiason to get in the Hall of Fame than I'd like to also nominate Jim Zorn, and Kurt Warner.
switz
Footballguy
Intentionally misleading stat?Kelly, seasons over 3400 yards, 3, and of course his 3380 and 3382 season are so far offKellyNo. of seasons over 3500 yds.- 2
at the time he went into the hall of fame he had one of the highest career passer ratings..
I think many people view Kelly as a great QB,who ran into 2 SB juggernauts: Redskins, and Dallas (2x)
the Giants game could have gone either way..there was No WAY the Bills were beating the Redskins, and they had the slimmest of hopes against the great Cowboys teams of the early 90's...only 3 players in NFL history reached 30,000 yard mark faster than Kelly. In 11 seasons, he led the Bills to the playoffs 8 times, of those 8, they played in 4 SB's..at the time of his retirement,his passer rating ranked 6th all time, and only second to those QBs already in the HOF, and he also ranked second in number of seasons throwing for MORE than 3,000 yards.
he ranks 2nd all time in post season passing yards..
and, he spent a few seasons in the USFL BEFORE coming to the NFL...he has a higher lifetime comp% than Marino and a higher passer rating than Elway.
yeah,there's no comparison..
Boomer was a great stat compiler, while Kelly was a champion, he won 4 straight championship games. that is unbelievable!
No. of seasons over 24 TDs (1.5 a game)- 2
No. of seasons over 16 (1 a game) picks-8
Boomer-
No. of seasons over 3400 yds.- 6
No. of seasons over 24 TDs- 5
No. of seasons over 16 picks- 4
Seemed like Kelly had a whole bunch of years where he was clearly just average of the 22TD/18Int variety. Looking at is career critically, it just wasn't that impressive. Unless you say he is the reason the Bills got to so many SBs. I'm not certain he was.
Or the fact that he was on pace for 3852 yards in '89 but missed 3 games due to injury, or on pace for 3558 in '94 but missed two games with injury. Heck his final season when he missed 3 games due to injury he was on pace for 3,458 yards.Basically your argument holds no water.
How's this, years with 210+ yards/game
Kelly: 9 (of 11 possible)
Esiason: 8 (of 14 possible)
Worst season in yards/game:
Esiason: 185.5 (discounted rookie season)
Kelly: 202.1
Years with 22+ TDs: (two less than your arbitrary number)
Esiason: 5
Kelly: 7
Basically, you can set limits to make Esiason look better, but that's all your doing. Nothing you can do will actually make Esiason be better than Kelly.
I think you're missing the point. Boomer is not a HOFer. Although I do think his peak six years surpass Kelly's best six. And there is no doubt that the second half of Boomer's career sucked on toast. I'm just putting it out there that Kelly's numbers while maybe slightly better are not that impressive, especially when compared to a better than average player like Boomer Esiason, and as a result I call his induction into the HOF on the first try in some question.Intentionally misleading stat?Kelly, seasons over 3400 yards, 3, and of course his 3380 and 3382 season are so far offKellyNo. of seasons over 3500 yds.- 2
at the time he went into the hall of fame he had one of the highest career passer ratings..
I think many people view Kelly as a great QB,who ran into 2 SB juggernauts: Redskins, and Dallas (2x)
the Giants game could have gone either way..there was No WAY the Bills were beating the Redskins, and they had the slimmest of hopes against the great Cowboys teams of the early 90's...only 3 players in NFL history reached 30,000 yard mark faster than Kelly. In 11 seasons, he led the Bills to the playoffs 8 times, of those 8, they played in 4 SB's..at the time of his retirement,his passer rating ranked 6th all time, and only second to those QBs already in the HOF, and he also ranked second in number of seasons throwing for MORE than 3,000 yards.
he ranks 2nd all time in post season passing yards..
and, he spent a few seasons in the USFL BEFORE coming to the NFL...he has a higher lifetime comp% than Marino and a higher passer rating than Elway.
yeah,there's no comparison..
Boomer was a great stat compiler, while Kelly was a champion, he won 4 straight championship games. that is unbelievable!
No. of seasons over 24 TDs (1.5 a game)- 2
No. of seasons over 16 (1 a game) picks-8
Boomer-
No. of seasons over 3400 yds.- 6
No. of seasons over 24 TDs- 5
No. of seasons over 16 picks- 4
Seemed like Kelly had a whole bunch of years where he was clearly just average of the 22TD/18Int variety. Looking at is career critically, it just wasn't that impressive. Unless you say he is the reason the Bills got to so many SBs. I'm not certain he was.
Basically your argument holds no water.
How's this, years with 210+ yards/game
Kelly: 9 (of 11 possible)
Esiason: 8 (of 14 possible)
Worst season in yards/game:
Esiason: 185.5 (discounted rookie season)
Kelly: 202.1
Years with 22+ TDs: (two less than your arbitrary number)
Esiason: 5
Kelly: 7
Basically, you can set limits to make Esiason look better, but that's all your doing. Nothing you can do will actually make Esiason be better than Kelly.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
yes I don't think any of those 3 belong in. Basically I think the HOF should be the best of the best. How many years could you say that one of those 3 was the best QB in football? Any? I think you should have to be the best at your position for at least 3 years to make it(exceptions can of course be made if you play alongside another great for your entire career). I think we've watered it down way too much.at Elway "cutting it close".Your statement that the HOF should have much tougher criteria implies that there are undeserving players in the HOF. You have basically indicated here that you think Aikman, Moon, and Kelly are among them. Who else?
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Boomer was a great stat compiler, while Kelly was a champion, he won 4 straight championship games. that is unbelievable!
I think I'm gonna puke. There's isn't much that gets me truly pissed off in football since I no longer have a legit home team. I used to be a Bengals fan in the 80s and early 90s, but they've been dead to me ever since the mid-90s when they made it clear they had no interest in winning and even less interest in their own fans. But this is the one thing that pisses me off every time I see it, and for you clowns to credit Kelly for "running the offense from the field, calling all the plays and running a fantastic no huddle offense" while taking away from Boomer is an absolute joke. Let me ask you this? Who started the no-huddle offense and rode it to the Super Bowl? If you say Marv Levy, Jim Kelly, and the Bills, you couldn't be any more wrong. The correct answer is Sam Wyche, Boomer Esiason, and the Bengals. #######' whiny ### Marv Levy cried that the Bengals were using the no huddle offense against them in the '88 playoffs while the Bengals were on their way to the Super Bowl, then he turns around, copies it for his own Super Bowl runs, AND proceeds to take full credit for being the mastermind of the no huddle offense. Make no mistake, the Bengals started the no huddle offense and Boomer was the quintessential field general running that offense. To imply that he was nothing more than a great stat compiler is ludicrous.
GregR_2
Footballguy
I don't think many people have to think about it for Kelly. He was considered an elite QB amongst his peers. He was the leader of a team that achieved great success even if they didn't capitalize it with a SB win. That's the kind of career resume a HoF'er should have, IMHO.I think you do have to think about it for Boomer though. He could still deserve it, but Kelly is pretty cut and dry.
Kelly was a winner. Immature folks here will solely point out the Supe losses not all the games that had to be won to get there. 4 Supes is 4 Supes.
That Bills franchise was terrible. He was great in the USFL and even though his first year the Bills were just "eh" you knew that it was turning around because he was there. HOF QBs give their fans that feeling.
As was said, he got to 30k yards relatively extremely quick.
Esiason was part of some very good offenses with very good players but most were only very good for a brief time. Woods and Ickey had 1000 yards rushing in the same season. Pickens and Eddie Brown had their moments. Although I wasn't a fan, others were of Collinsworth. He also had arguably the greatest OT ever blocking for him. Rob Moore was no HOF but he's got some gaudy stats for his career. He was a solid WR. Wayne Chrebet set the then record for most catches in first 2 years. Johnny Mitchell was a very good up and coming TE back then.(Granted his career just stopped on a dime but at the time....) Larry Centers, one of the best pass catching backs ever(single season). He had 99 or 100 catches one year. Esiason didn't have Thurman and Reed but he had some real solid talent around him.
A HOF QB doesn't lose his job to David Klingler, Bubby Brister, Glenn Foley, and Kent Graham. This doesn't help him when people remember him at all.
That Bills franchise was terrible. He was great in the USFL and even though his first year the Bills were just "eh" you knew that it was turning around because he was there. HOF QBs give their fans that feeling.
As was said, he got to 30k yards relatively extremely quick.
Esiason was part of some very good offenses with very good players but most were only very good for a brief time. Woods and Ickey had 1000 yards rushing in the same season. Pickens and Eddie Brown had their moments. Although I wasn't a fan, others were of Collinsworth. He also had arguably the greatest OT ever blocking for him. Rob Moore was no HOF but he's got some gaudy stats for his career. He was a solid WR. Wayne Chrebet set the then record for most catches in first 2 years. Johnny Mitchell was a very good up and coming TE back then.(Granted his career just stopped on a dime but at the time....) Larry Centers, one of the best pass catching backs ever(single season). He had 99 or 100 catches one year. Esiason didn't have Thurman and Reed but he had some real solid talent around him.
A HOF QB doesn't lose his job to David Klingler, Bubby Brister, Glenn Foley, and Kent Graham. This doesn't help him when people remember him at all.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
So...uh....tell us what you really think. Honestly if you think Boomer was better than Kelly than I have to question your ability to produce current dynasty rankings.Edit to add that I should apologize to F&L. I was trying to be a little bit funny and it didn't work. Carry on.
Last edited by a moderator:
dagogrease
Footballguy
I want to preface this with the statement that I believe Jim Kelly belongs in the HOF but how can you say that the above QBs were products of a system and Kelly wasn't when the Bills were able to insert Frank Reich into the lineup with pretty much the same results?Reich's stats with the Bills:278-466 for 3194 yards : 59.7 Comp % : 25 TDs : 15 Ints : QB rating 84.8 : 5.4 TD % : 3.2 Int %
IMHO, all of the above QBs belong:Moon was a great QB in ANY systemThe Steelers would not have won Super Bowls XIII and XIV without BradshawYoung has to be considered top 5 QBs of all-time but that is just my opinionYou may have a point with Aikman...You're better than this. Young was basically a rookie on a 2-14 team in TB. Please point out all the great QB performances on similar quality teams. Kelly only had 1 year where he had as good a rating as Young had for his entire career.switz said:
Last edited by a moderator:
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Do I know you?You can question whatever you want.Honestly if you read what I wrote and find in there anywhere that I said Boomer was better than Kelly, then I have to question your reading comprehension and intelligence level.I don't think Boomer was better Kelly. I think the argument about the no huddle offense is junk, and that's exactly what I said. Where did I say Boomer was better than Kelly? You completed fabricated that notion to get in a shot about dynasty rankings for some reason.So...uh....tell us what you really think. Honestly if you think Boomer was better than Kelly than I have to question your ability to produce current dynasty rankings.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Bah, forget it. Not worth the argument.Do I know you?You can question whatever you want.Honestly if you read what I wrote and find in there anywhere that I said Boomer was better than Kelly, then I have to question your reading comprehension and intelligence level.I don't think Boomer was better Kelly. I think the argument about the no huddle offense is junk, and that's exactly what I said. Where did I say Boomer was better than Kelly? You completed fabricated that notion to get in a shot about dynasty rankings for some reason.So...uh....tell us what you really think. Honestly if you think Boomer was better than Kelly than I have to question your ability to produce current dynasty rankings.Boomer was a great stat compiler, while Kelly was a champion, he won 4 straight championship games. that is unbelievable!
Last edited by a moderator:
H.K.
Footballguy
For starters, your numbers are inaccurate and leave out the impact Kelly had on the game in his era. When all facets of the impact both players had on the game of football are compared, Boomer does not measure up to Kelly. Therefore, a large part of the answer lies with the fact that it's called the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Kelly helped change Pro Football, much the same way fellow HOFer Steve Young did. Not many people realize this, but in 1984 Kelly passed for more yardage than any other pro in the country with 5,219 yards. Kelly could have been a stat compiler like someone else in his era, but he knew that football and QB play were about more than just passing numbers. Kelly played in a horrible climate, too, but because he was a leader and put winning first, he believed in the team concept and personal stats were secondary to him.
I'd roll with product of the system for Young. One of the best systems ever(at the time, the best).I remember Elvis and Steve Bono looking good in SF. Nothing insulting about product of the system. I felt like Young got into Montana's machine and drove it just as well, better, close to as well.....whichever, not worth debating, just he did it so very well. I also agree Young in Tampa wasn't very good. I liked young Testaverde better. He threw 10k interceptions but boy did he "try to throw his arm out", he tried so hard to win with that poor team. IIRC Young credits USFL time as being integral to his development. Walsh is a legend. The leap from TB to SF isn't so crazy.Also FWIW, if it's not Montana's machine but Walsh's. OK I'd be cool with that too. I just don't think it was Young's. Similarly, did anyone think Steven Jackson stunk when he initially replaced Faulk in the same plays that were designed or put in for Faulk? How about Johnson replacing Priest? It's OK to be the product of a system.
Prior to the Brady/Manning era, John Elway was one of the 3 best QBs and top-10 players of all time. Saying he should possibly not belong in the HOF is insanity.yes I don't think any of those 3 belong in. Basically I think the HOF should be the best of the best. How many years could you say that one of those 3 was the best QB in football? Any? I think you should have to be the best at your position for at least 3 years to make it(exceptions can of course be made if you play alongside another great for your entire career). I think we've watered it down way too much.at Elway "cutting it close".Your statement that the HOF should have much tougher criteria implies that there are undeserving players in the HOF. You have basically indicated here that you think Aikman, Moon, and Kelly are among them. Who else?
Last edited by a moderator:
some more info on Kelly:
pillowpants
Footballguy
Sorry I didn't ask earlier, but do the stats in the OP include Kelly's time in the USFL? I believe they count when putting someone in the PRO-football HoF.
Also, I agree with Koya about Phil Simms. If he were healthy for SBXXV and led the Giants to the win instead of Hoss, he'd be a HoF'er too.
Also, I agree with Koya about Phil Simms. If he were healthy for SBXXV and led the Giants to the win instead of Hoss, he'd be a HoF'er too.
Pai Mei
Footballguy
I don't have an answer for you. I think the entire concept of a hall of fame is silly. It doesn't prove anything and is highly political. Its also unneeded. I'd stop having votes for the HOF. In fact, I'd kick everyone out of the Hall, and rename it the "Hall of Memorabilia" where people can stop by and see artifacts collected from the history of the game.
Pai Mei
Footballguy
How is Joe Montana not in that era? Hell Montana and Kelly went head-to-head for the AFC title in 1994. That was Kelly's last Super Bowl year...
Last edited by a moderator:
Pai Mei
Footballguy
Elway had way too many meltdowns in big games. In many cases the team carried Elway. People gloss over that because of his first-and-98. For example the defense and running game went up 21-3 over the Browns in the 87 AFC title game. Then Elway started throwing the ball and sucked and they nearly lost.somewhatI do think Elway is a no brainer HOF'er. You saw greatness when you watched him.
Tau837
Footballguy
No, the OP didn't include them, nor does the HOF consider them, at least officially. I suppose some voters may take it into consideration, but IMO they shouldn't. Just like CFL stats and honors don't count for Doug Flutie...
Playing on a good team with a good offensive scheme doesn't hurt, but calling a guy who did as much and was as talented as Young a "system quarterback" is just crazy-talk. I'm looking at the stats and I don't see a single thing Kelly did better than Young. Also interesting post above that Kelly's backup put similar numbers up while Kelly was out, as long as that's being thrown around.Of course everyone's entitled to their opinion and gut feeling, but there's no objective way of arguing that Kelly>Young
Last edited by a moderator:
I didn't compare Kelly to Young, I was following up on a couple quoted points.IMO Nothing at all negative about Young being a system QB. I guess the system player's I mentioned above didn't "hit home" so let me give you some HOFers and highly regarded players in the same...err similar...defense, by the same defensive minded coach drawing it up- Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson, Pepper Johnson, Carl Banks, Bruschi, Seau, Vrabel, etc.You don't take away from them for being pawns in BB's scheme, right? So then why take away from Young for being pawns in Walsh's scheme? "System" isn't always a negative term.
SR388
Footballguy
Invented the no huddle offense?
But this is the one thing that pisses me off every time I see it, and for you clowns to credit Kelly for "running the offense from the field, calling all the plays and running a fantastic no huddle offense" while taking away from Boomer is an absolute joke.
Let me ask you this? Who started the no-huddle offense and rode it to the Super Bowl? If you say Marv Levy, Jim Kelly, and the Bills, you couldn't be any more wrong. The correct answer is Sam Wyche, Boomer Esiason, and the Bengals. #######' whiny ### Marv Levy cried that the Bengals were using the no huddle offense against them in the '88 playoffs while the Bengals were on their way to the Super Bowl, then he turns around, copies it for his own Super Bowl runs, AND proceeds to take full credit for being the mastermind of the no huddle offense.
Make no mistake, the Bengals started the no huddle offense and Boomer was the quintessential field general running that offense. To imply that he was nothing more than a great stat compiler is ludicrous.
I guess I just object to you calling some of these stars 'system' players because it implies they wouldn't be good on other teams (at least at some level). I mean would you seriously call LT a "system" defensive end? The guy would have been a monster anywhere in the league. Same with Seau, Young, etcSome of the other guys you mentioned might be more appropriately called "system" players, in my view at least, because they are of only moderate talent, but put in positions where they can use that talent to its fullest (ie Bruschi or Vrabel)
Yeah that's that negative stuff people attach to it way too often. Coaches have great systems-series of plays/schemes that work well. A player's job at it's most basic is to play within that system. In theory, he shouldn't be allowed to play if he won't follow the coach's system so he's gotta.I thought of another-With all the well designed plays for Rice, Owens walked into a perfect system for him. (Granted it was probably supposed to be JJ Stokes but....) Aside from a QB "running for his life" behind a horrific OL, I think the HOF QBs would have done well anywhere. Well I do remember a joke about Hostetler being the best Giants WR on those Supe teams...Young would have been confused in NY, but otherwise ...thecatch said:
