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Home closing question (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter bleachercreacher
- Start date
Random
Footballguy
I buy old, busted up houses all the time. Old (or nonexistent) wiring, plumbing, furnace, water heater, you name it. We just fix it.
Difference is, we dont ask for stuff to be fixed in our offers. Instead, our offers account for the repairs being done on our dime.
The OP made an offer contingent that the outlets are grounded. Or that grounded outlets are installed. Not that ground-able outlets are installed.
Not sure who is at fault here, but it seems to me the seller is obligated to provided grounded outlets.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I think the best course of action now is to accept the GFCI offer. What are you left with otherwise? Going to court where you take the gamble- if you lose that gamble then you are out the money for the lawyer and have to do everything yourself. Take the GFCI and be careful with your electronics. Move on.
The best course of action is to listen to the lawyer he's meeting with and go from there.
Dan Lambskin
Footballguy
I'm sure the lawyer will advise him to just take the GFI's rather than go to court where he stands to make more money
bagger
Footballguy
lmfao
NFL-ons
Footballguy
IMO, the main issue is that either the home inspector failed you or there was a misinterpretation of the information that was provided. The true issue should have been noted at the breaker box. Here the inspector would have seen that there was cloth insulated (knob and tube) wiring, not 3 wire romex, pvc romex, or grounded mdx and he should have pointed this out to you. Having this knowledge you would have known that there was no ground wire going to the receptacles. You would have then provided the contingency that the whole house needed to be rewired in your offer instead of the ambiguous request that was made. In addition, when you re-inspected, you would have either looked at the box or used a sure test circuit analyzer instead of your $2 tester.
The most unfortunate thing about the issue at hand happens to be the reason why you are asking for opinions... the attorney's fees. I would guess the original retainer request will be around $1500 and with all the motions and postponements, it will end up costing at least $4k, on your side, by the time you get your decision. Now who cares, if it will be reimbursed on the judgement, which you may not be able to collect on, but is that a bet you really want to make?
Re-wiring a 3300 sqft house is a significant undertaking. You are fortunate that you are doing your kitchen remodel which should make portions of the job relatively easy. An electrician should not charge too much more than he already will be to correct the areas which will now be relative easy to access. You can address the additional circuits at your own pace if u choose not to do the whole job at one.
Even though I think the deck is stacked against you, I whole heartedly endorse the BLUFF, and I would not accept anything but cash in my pocket if I were you.
The most unfortunate thing about the issue at hand happens to be the reason why you are asking for opinions... the attorney's fees. I would guess the original retainer request will be around $1500 and with all the motions and postponements, it will end up costing at least $4k, on your side, by the time you get your decision. Now who cares, if it will be reimbursed on the judgement, which you may not be able to collect on, but is that a bet you really want to make?
Re-wiring a 3300 sqft house is a significant undertaking. You are fortunate that you are doing your kitchen remodel which should make portions of the job relatively easy. An electrician should not charge too much more than he already will be to correct the areas which will now be relative easy to access. You can address the additional circuits at your own pace if u choose not to do the whole job at one.
Even though I think the deck is stacked against you, I whole heartedly endorse the BLUFF, and I would not accept anything but cash in my pocket if I were you.
coyote5
Footballguy
Where did anyone say the current wiring is knob and tube? Are we at the point where we just make up facts now?
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Even with a strong case (assuming that the buyer spelled out exactly what was to be done in the documents) it still is not exactly mean he should move forward with a lawsuit. 1) Can he sue to cover court costs as well? If not- is it worth it spending the money on legal fees? 2) Even a strong case does not mean you will win or even if you 'win' you get all you want.
From the info provided, I would be shocked if a good and ethical lawyer advised anything more than "You can spend the money in court and you could very well win but you may not. I will represent you if you want me to."
These are the things that the lawyer will (should?) be able to intelligently comment on after looking at the documents and talking to the OP.
NFL-ons
Footballguy
Only making an assumption based upon the information provided.
The house is over 60 years old.
The existing wiring does not have an independent copper ground wire.
In my experience the only wire that would fit these parameters is cloth wrapped insulated wire/knob and tube.
Johnny Rock
Footballguy
Here's my prediction.
What matters is intent. You didn't intend for seller to rewire the whole house or you would have said so.
Seller didn't intend to rewire the whole house, as any reasonable person would agree is an unusual request, or they would have rejected the offer or asked for more money.
It's been 6 months and an inspector was involved too.
You can spend a whole bunch of money, after which the judge will strongly recommend arbitration. The judge isn't likely to award you a full rewiring.
If this goes all the way to court I would guess be prepared for $15k plus the stress, time, missed work, and all the BS you haven't even thought of or know about.
Work it out with the seller. If GFCI is the best you can get, take it in cash via legit bids. You'll not be using seller's electrician anyway. You'll control what you want done.
These are hypotheticals. I'm not a lawyer. But I like to play one on the internet.
What matters is intent. You didn't intend for seller to rewire the whole house or you would have said so.
Seller didn't intend to rewire the whole house, as any reasonable person would agree is an unusual request, or they would have rejected the offer or asked for more money.
It's been 6 months and an inspector was involved too.
You can spend a whole bunch of money, after which the judge will strongly recommend arbitration. The judge isn't likely to award you a full rewiring.
If this goes all the way to court I would guess be prepared for $15k plus the stress, time, missed work, and all the BS you haven't even thought of or know about.
Work it out with the seller. If GFCI is the best you can get, take it in cash via legit bids. You'll not be using seller's electrician anyway. You'll control what you want done.
These are hypotheticals. I'm not a lawyer. But I like to play one on the internet.
comfortably numb
Footballguy
This is a VERY VERY VERY good point....has absolutely nothing to do with the OPs situation but a good point none the less.
bleachercreacher
Footballguy
Did you read any of my post? I'm not sure how this is relevant at all. I'm totally willing to deal with any issues that come with an older house. The wiring was performed against code, and in a method that tricks electric test meters by a certified master electrician, who still is arguing that his work is to code. That is my biggest issue with the whole thing.
I'm just trying to weigh my options. Work wasn't performed to the original agreement, which is written as well as it can be, without saying that they need to rewire the house, which no one knew needed to be done. Wording clearly says that all outlets need to be grounded, it's up to them to determine what is involved in this, not me. If their electrician had performed quality work at the time, and came back with the GFI option, I would've countered with significantly less money and walked away if they said no.
bleachercreacher
Footballguy
It is not knob and tube. it is a 2 wire romex, which was pretty standard in the 1950's from what I understand.
jwb
Footballguy
It might be. Many codes have provisions for workarounds on older, existing work. Otherwise, nobody would be able to afford to get anything done to an older home. Obviously, it's not code for modern/new work.
You have one master electrician saying yes, it's code. You have another saying no. You had a building inspector say no as well (which is a stronger case for no, but not absolute - many building inspectors are not up on all codes). It'll depend what the local codes actually say.
bleachercreacher
Footballguy
My realtor called this morning. She's done research and made calls, she says that the sellers work has to be quality work and be to code. From what she said, the fact that it's 6 months after closing doesn't matter. Actually taking outlets off of walls isn't in home inspectors "scope of practice" in my state, so it's not reasonable to expect that the inspector would've caught the issue.
Having said that, she's a realtor and not a lawyer. She's great at her job, and I appreciate her really going above and beyond here. I can't do anything until I speak with my attorney later this week. My stepdad owns a local business and has used this guy in a couple of lawsuits. He said he's a great lawyer, and is a straight shooter. If he tells me to take the GFI outlets, I will do so. If he wants to write a letter to threaten them or sue, I'll weigh my options.
I have an electrician coming tomorrow to give me a quote for rewiring the house. The kitchen was just redone as part of my ongoing kitchen renovation, at my expense. Right now, the wiring to two bedrooms and one bathroom on the second floor is exposed from below. Regardless of anything, I'm going to have him rewire those three rooms above. Only 4 additional rooms will have the old wiring after those initial 4 rooms are completed.
Having said that, she's a realtor and not a lawyer. She's great at her job, and I appreciate her really going above and beyond here. I can't do anything until I speak with my attorney later this week. My stepdad owns a local business and has used this guy in a couple of lawsuits. He said he's a great lawyer, and is a straight shooter. If he tells me to take the GFI outlets, I will do so. If he wants to write a letter to threaten them or sue, I'll weigh my options.
I have an electrician coming tomorrow to give me a quote for rewiring the house. The kitchen was just redone as part of my ongoing kitchen renovation, at my expense. Right now, the wiring to two bedrooms and one bathroom on the second floor is exposed from below. Regardless of anything, I'm going to have him rewire those three rooms above. Only 4 additional rooms will have the old wiring after those initial 4 rooms are completed.
bleachercreacher
Footballguy
I think you are doing the right thing. The folks telling you to just eat it can pound sand. I look at it this way, even if the GFI outlets are to code (which from the post above, they aren't), you are exposing yourself when you try to sell the house. The last thing you want is to have to eat re-wiring when you sell because you got screwed over by an electrician (and possibly the sellers) trying to pull a VW and do a cheap job to just pass inspections.
I agree on doing any re--wiring you can while remodeling to keep the cost down, but you should keep track of that work in what you paid, i.e. itemized so you can break out the wiring work. If you keep that cost down, you might be able to settle a bit more easily with the sellers/electrician. Maybe the lawyer will recommend going after the electrician. Hard to want that guy doing the work, but maybe he will fix it at no cost to keep a complaint off his record/license pulled/etc.
NFL-ons
Footballguy
Hunh...learn something new from FFA again. Inspector still should have seen this at the panel. Googled the 2 wire romex, which I am sure u have done, and it seems the non-grounded GFCI at the first receptacle is the common approved solution. The GFCI's safety will trip if given a current leakage situation thus allotting similar protection.
Glad u addressed some of the issue with your kitchen remodel.
Best of luck.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
This is why i refused to do any work when selling my house recently. Just agreed upon a monetary amount and let them fix what they wanted. Still not sure how you get around your own inspector doing the final walkthrough with you and signing off on the work.
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
That sounds good, you married? Did you buy this with your wife? You would have walked away?
We made major upgrades to the house and went from 100 to 200(whatever that means) so we could have more electricity to run things, this is an old house and had no A.C. when we moved in and didn't have it for a while...we had to make due with window units at first. When we went to sell, the inspector for the buyer discovered things our electricity company was supposed to fix or at least should have brought to our attention. We went after them and came to an agreement between us, them, and seller.
I don't think it is worth in actual dollars the time and aggravation you are going to bring and your wife if married doesn't care about this situation half as much as you do. We men hate to feel like someone got one over on us. But life is not fair so suck it up, install the electrical outlets to code in the room you are planning on working on/in and move forward. It's not worth the hassle if you are gainfully employed, IMHO.
I don't get your reply at all. You state that you and the seller went after the electric company for something they were supposed to fix, but your telling him to suck it up and not go after the people who didn't do something they agreed to do (fix it to code). Is it painful to speak out of both sides of your mouth?
needanap
Footballguy
Here is what you need to do:
Agree to the GFCI deal, get an estimate both parties agree on, then have them write you a check for that amount. Consider yourself lucky this is behind you.
As much as you may not like that advice, it is the best financial and emotional path to take.
A lawsuit will be expensive, more expensive than you think. As mentioned earlier, you may have an attorney's fee clause in the house contract (we do in California). So, to your legal fees, add the sellers fees and be aware that if you lose you are on the hook for those. I think you will lose because the burden of proving fraud or negligent misrepresentation in this case will be very, very difficult. The sellers hired a licensed electrical contractor to do the work. They had no reason to think it would not be done in the proper manner. You inspected the work and signed off on it. Do you think they intentionally hired the guy to deceive you? More importantly, can you prove they did?
Sue the licensed electrical contractor? You did not hire him. Legally you have no claim against him. The sellers might.
Sue your inspector? Maybe, but I bet the contract you signed absolves him of this type of stuff.
The situation sucks and I am not unsympathetic. Get a credit and avoid the lawyers.
Best of luck in getting this resolved.
Agree to the GFCI deal, get an estimate both parties agree on, then have them write you a check for that amount. Consider yourself lucky this is behind you.
As much as you may not like that advice, it is the best financial and emotional path to take.
A lawsuit will be expensive, more expensive than you think. As mentioned earlier, you may have an attorney's fee clause in the house contract (we do in California). So, to your legal fees, add the sellers fees and be aware that if you lose you are on the hook for those. I think you will lose because the burden of proving fraud or negligent misrepresentation in this case will be very, very difficult. The sellers hired a licensed electrical contractor to do the work. They had no reason to think it would not be done in the proper manner. You inspected the work and signed off on it. Do you think they intentionally hired the guy to deceive you? More importantly, can you prove they did?
Sue the licensed electrical contractor? You did not hire him. Legally you have no claim against him. The sellers might.
Sue your inspector? Maybe, but I bet the contract you signed absolves him of this type of stuff.
The situation sucks and I am not unsympathetic. Get a credit and avoid the lawyers.
Best of luck in getting this resolved.
bleachercreacher
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
A passionate, fiery woman, congrats. Is she a redhead by any chance? If so I am jealous.
In the end I wish you the best of luck resolving this swiftly to your complete satisfaction.
bleachercreacher
Footballguy
Sorry, I've been busy and I haven't had a chance to update this. The lawyer read through everything, and he said he thinks the wording is crystal clear. It clearly states that we want grounded outlets throughout the house. He wanted to know what conversation the previous homeowners had with their electrician, but there is no way of knowing. He asked what we wanted out of this, which is just having the house properly wired. He's going to write a letter to both he previous homeowner and the electrician that performed the illegal wiring. If neither agree to rewire the house, we will have to go to court. He's willing to take it on a contingency (40%), assuming we allow him to sue the electrician. I hope it doesn't come to this, but that option is always open.
As I said, he thought everything was clearly worded. He said that there is no problem with the 6 months since the house is sold. He actually thought it could work in our favor, since they obviously wouldn't have rewired the house initially. He was going to do some research, but at first glance he didn't think the home inspector was liable at all. He didn't think that pulling outlets off the wall was in their scope of practice, per my realtor, but he was going to check it out. Essentially, if the home inspector followed his checklist that is a part of his license, there was nothing we could do there. The electrician obviously performed dangerous work, so they are the easiest targets in the whole thing.
He was mad at the electrician more than anyone, and as I said, he was really eager to sue them. I have one quote for a rewire, and I am getting 2 more. As of now, we having heard from the sellers or the electrician. I'm not expecting anything from the electrician, but we will see. It was an electrician from a very well respected company in my area. Hopefully it gets fixed out of court. I already have half of the rooms rewired, relatively cheaply while all of the drywall and plaster was off the walls in my kitchen. At this point, I'd be happy if they just fixed the other half of the house. This could be a good place to settle if they will.
As I said, he thought everything was clearly worded. He said that there is no problem with the 6 months since the house is sold. He actually thought it could work in our favor, since they obviously wouldn't have rewired the house initially. He was going to do some research, but at first glance he didn't think the home inspector was liable at all. He didn't think that pulling outlets off the wall was in their scope of practice, per my realtor, but he was going to check it out. Essentially, if the home inspector followed his checklist that is a part of his license, there was nothing we could do there. The electrician obviously performed dangerous work, so they are the easiest targets in the whole thing.
He was mad at the electrician more than anyone, and as I said, he was really eager to sue them. I have one quote for a rewire, and I am getting 2 more. As of now, we having heard from the sellers or the electrician. I'm not expecting anything from the electrician, but we will see. It was an electrician from a very well respected company in my area. Hopefully it gets fixed out of court. I already have half of the rooms rewired, relatively cheaply while all of the drywall and plaster was off the walls in my kitchen. At this point, I'd be happy if they just fixed the other half of the house. This could be a good place to settle if they will.
Beef Ravioli
Footballguy
Any news? Would like to hear what happened.
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Beef Ravioli
Footballguy
Bump for an update
SWC
Bromigo
it is clear that you have a problem and no one else can help so brohan if i were you i would check the los angeles underground for some guys possible ones that escaped from a maximum security prison in roughly 72 and see if they can help i pitty the brool who does not take that to the bank
Chadstroma
Footballguy
oso diablo
Footballguy
gmbacm
Footballguy
bleachercreacher
Footballguy
Sorry guys, I've had a busy month and haven't been online much. After the letter from my attorney, the sellers countered with paying 75% of rewiring cost. I showed them the receipt from the rooms I had done, and agreed to just have them rewire the rest if they used my electrician. It's probably closer to 65/35, but the work getting done right is the most important thing.
