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How do YOU Evaluate Rookie Talent? (1 Viewer)

peralta22

Footballguy
Each year I try to evaluate the rookie draft class (offensive players) to create "Pre-Draft" Rookie Positional Ranking, prior to the NFL Draft. I am just starting to look at the 2014 rookie draft class. However, I'm starting to second guess my evaluation process and wanted to get an idea on how other do their evaluations.

Here's my process:

I have a simple system where I watch game film (courtesy of draft breakdown). I create categories which I feel are vital to each position. (ie. Separation, Route Running, Elusiveness, Balance, Burst, Power, etc...) I rank the players by summing up all of my perceived rating (out of 10) for each category for a total score. These evaluations are solely based on talent. Other factors such as character, injury, etc... are omitted. (I am definitely not a scout, but I try to provide my best unbiased evaluation)

Before the NFL Draft, I research the latest "expert" rankings (and other guys/sites that I feel create reasonable/methodical rankings) and average them out with mine, to make my final "Pre-Draft Positional Rankings". I incorporate other ranking to get a more broad prospective of the value of each player.

I am sure that my method has its flaws. However, I was wondering how you guys/girls create you positional rookie rankings?

Thanks!

 
I read a lot and then when the draft comes I tend to let the professionals help with the process. I don't always rank it that the first guy taken in the draft is better. I like to go with draft position and opportunity as my final breakdown. The professionals can not always get it right and neither can we. A lot of it quite frankly is guess work and we have to accept that. Skill and opportunity equal success. Skill may eventually rise to the top, but sometimes skill with a crappy opportunity ends up being useless.

This year for example Skill and opportunity of Lacy and Keenan Allan trumped some of the other rookies that were probably equally skilled but in worst situations.

 
Watch games then read. A lot. I try not to read about someone before I watch them, so I don't develop a bias. If my evaluation doesn't match what I read I'll watch clips, love draft breakdown, and read some more.

If a team I trust picks a guy I didn't value like they did I will re evaluate too.

 
What shader and I tend to do is say the the guys from our own school will do great. The other ones, not necessarily as great. I'm sure other people do the same. I admit, it's not an exact science. :thumbup:

 
My RB evals are the only ones I have total confidence in. I just watch the clips and look for balance, acceleration, footwork, extra yards beyond what a lesser player would give. The combine then completes the picture for me.

The other positions I'm largely dependent on what I read. Clips and highlights tend to focus on the ball. For the QB's, WR's and TE's a lot happens away from the ball.

 
Read the guys ya normally do and if they are issuing a lot of questions in their article, move on in FF-regardless of what they tell you to do.

 
In roughly declining order of weighting, my post-draft rookie rankings end up being based on:

- draft position

- other people's opinions & analyses, especially a few people whose opinions I value (e.g., Greg Peshek, wdcrob, & Football Outsiders for stats-based evaluations, Waldman for tape-based evaluations) and also the broader fantasy/draftnik community

- size & athleticism, from the combine & pro days (40, vertical, broad, weight, height, bmi) (especially for RBs, and also for WRs & TEs)

- my own analyses of college stats (especially for WRs, and also for RBs & TEs)

- me watching video (only for RBs, primarily using youtube game videos, looking mostly at how often a back picks up extra yards, explosiveness, and indications that their stats are misleading)

- my opinions about players' situations (especially the quality of the QB/offense, and whether there is a strong established starter in the way)

In practice, I tend to end up drafting a lot of guys who come out positively in my analyses and in the evaluations of other stats guys, since those are the players who I typically end up ranking higher than the conventional wisdom.

 
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NOT pay attention to the combine.

Watch the draft, watch highlights of guys drafted, see how they look. Figure out which guys are best for PPR that also look like they can handle a workload.

A lot of times there are guys I prefer over the more obvious choices, so I trade back.

Flip a coin, guess, dart board. For every David Wilson there is an Alfred Morris.

Obviously the NFL draft SHOULD be a halfway decent guide since the guys picked earlier are going to be given an opportunity whether they like it or not, plus since they were drafted earlier it USUALLY means they have more talent. But really a ton of factors go into how you gotta rank them, just like the NFL does when drafting them. Just, different factors. They dont care if their RB catches a zero yard pass. We do.

 
Thanks for all of your comments.

Waldman's RSP is definitely one of my main sources and I usually weigh it heavily. However, I do like to do my own evaluation in order to familiarize myself with the players.

I would really be interested to know how the guys who frequently post their rookie rankings (EBF, Brewtown, ZWK, FBG Staff, etc...) evaluate and organize their rankings. If they would be willing to share this information?

 
I'd also add that ZWK's posts outlining college production for prospects are absolutely outstanding and I typically refer to them frequently.

 
peralta22 said:
Each year I try to evaluate the rookie draft class (offensive players) to create "Pre-Draft" Rookie Positional Ranking, prior to the NFL Draft. I am just starting to look at the 2014 rookie draft class. However, I'm starting to second guess my evaluation process and wanted to get an idea on how other do their evaluations.

Here's my process:

I have a simple system where I watch game film (courtesy of draft breakdown). I create categories which I feel are vital to each position. (ie. Separation, Route Running, Elusiveness, Balance, Burst, Power, etc...) I rank the players by summing up all of my perceived rating (out of 10) for each category for a total score. These evaluations are solely based on talent. Other factors such as character, injury, etc... are omitted. (I am definitely not a scout, but I try to provide my best unbiased evaluation)

Before the NFL Draft, I research the latest "expert" rankings (and other guys/sites that I feel create reasonable/methodical rankings) and average them out with mine, to make my final "Pre-Draft Positional Rankings". I incorporate other ranking to get a more broad prospective of the value of each player.

I am sure that my method has its flaws. However, I was wondering how you guys/girls create you positional rookie rankings?

Thanks!
pre season.
 
A few things...

- First, I have an outline for each position in what I'm looking for in terms of size and speed. It isn't a hard requirement, but (for example) I just prefer the 5' 11' 220 RB to the "scatback" types. But when a smaller player comes along that clearly passes the eye test (McCoy) size won't hinder me.

- For video I try to watch as many games against good, talented teams. I'm looking for fundamentals, how easily they go down on contact, and breakaway speed. If you can't outrun the college players you aren't outrunning NFL players.

- I'll also pull up old video from previous "greats" and "busts" from their college time. Every once in a while you can see similar traits.

- The combine, while not perfect, does give you some good information. The 3-cone drill and shuttle can provide interesting data for players who tend to dance; jump data is good for the "bruiser" types (if you include their size/weight); the 40 and 10-yard split is good for guys who play decisive and hit the hole and/or get into the second level.

- While I don't draft for situation as much (will they start immediately or 2 years down the line) it does play a factor at times. I review the NFL team, whether the team has success drafting the position, whether their supporting cast is good, and what their draft pedigree is (teams that invest 1st or 2nd rounders are getting them on the field).

- I consider age as a factor, especially with RBs.

- I review the boards of the professionals. They have more time and have those jobs for a reason. They are far from perfect, but they might catch something I'm missing. I'm a supporter of Waldman and the RSP.

- I developed a score based on a number of these items and some custom metrics to help me objectively rank the players. I also take the score and normalize it to help me identify big gaps between talent.

- I review my drafts after 3 years and see where I went wrong. For example, I know I didn't evaluate TEs right since I had ranked Gresham above both Jimmy Graham and Rob Gronkowski. (This led to evaluating the evaluators as mentioned above.)

Anyway, I'm far from perfect and I'm sure there are plenty of folks who will disagree with (or even mock) my methods. But as of now I like my RB and WR evaluations (I missed pretty badly on Keenan Allen though. I had him very underrated. I'll need to look at that.) and I'm starting to feel better about TE. For now, QB has been my most troubling position.

Cheers!

 
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A few things...

- First, I have an outline for each position in what I'm looking for in terms of size and speed. It isn't a hard requirement, but (for example) I just prefer the 5' 11' 220 RB to the "scatback" types. But when a smaller player comes along that clearly passes the eye test (McCoy) size won't hinder me.

- For video I try to watch as many games against good, talented teams. I'm looking for fundamentals, how easily they go down on contact, and breakaway speed. If you can't outrun the college players you aren't outrunning NFL players.

- I'll also pull up old video from previous "greats" and "busts" from their college time. Every once in a while you can see similar traits.

- The combine, while not perfect, does give you some good information. The 3-cone drill and shuttle can provide interesting data for players who tend to dance; jump data is good for the "bruiser" types (if you include their size/weight); the 40 and 10-yard split is good for guys who play decisive and hit the hole and/or get into the second level.

- While I don't draft for situation as much (will they start immediately or 2 years down the line) it does play a factor at times. I review the NFL team, whether the team has success drafting the position, whether their supporting cast is good, and what their draft pedigree is (teams that invest 1st or 2nd rounders are getting them on the field).

- I consider age as a factor, especially with RBs.

- I review the boards of the professionals. They have more time and have those jobs for a reason. They are far from perfect, but they might catch something I'm missing. I'm a supporter of Waldman and the RSP.

- I developed a score based on a number of these items and some custom metrics to help me objectively rank the players. I also take the score and normalize it to help me identify big gaps between talent.

- I review my drafts after 3 years and see where I went wrong. For example, I know I didn't evaluate TEs right since I had ranked Gresham above both Jimmy Graham and Rob Gronkowski. (This led to evaluating the evaluators as mentioned above.)

Anyway, I'm far from perfect and I'm sure there are plenty of folks who will disagree with (or even mock) my methods. But as of now I like my RB and WR evaluations (I missed pretty badly on Keenan Allen though. I had him very underrated. I'll need to look at that.) and I'm starting to feel better about TE. For now, QB has been my most troubling position.

Cheers!
This is all you need. I'll add in not to listen to me or anyone else on a FF message board, or worse, start to believe you're a talent scout because you're not.

 
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I watch the YouTube constantly. Highlights of players are all over the place on the YouTube. The only thing I wish the YouTube had was a slow button where you can watch the highlights in slow motion. I will sit for two-three weekends watching highlights before and after the draft just for clarification. My bookmarks menu is full come draft time. I make up lists as to their future fantasy production after the highlights.

If I come to a consensus about two people, I don't believe in the coin toss method to separate them. I chose the best one based on the colors of the team that drafted them. The more pretty the colors, that player is place above the other.

Works every time.

 
In roughly declining order of weighting, my post-draft rookie rankings end up being based on:

- draft position

- other people's opinions & analyses, especially a few people whose opinions I value (e.g., Greg Peshek, wdcrob, & Football Outsiders for stats-based evaluations, Waldman for tape-based evaluations) and also the broader fantasy/draftnik community

- size & athleticism, from the combine & pro days (40, vertical, broad, weight, height, bmi) (especially for RBs, and also for WRs & TEs)

- my own analyses of college stats (especially for WRs, and also for RBs & TEs)

- me watching video (only for RBs, primarily using youtube game videos, looking mostly at how often a back picks up extra yards, explosiveness, and indications that their stats are misleading)

- my opinions about players' situations (especially the quality of the QB/offense, and whether there is a strong established starter in the way)

In practice, I tend to end up drafting a lot of guys who come out positively in my analyses and in the evaluations of other stats guys, since those are the players who I typically end up ranking higher than the conventional wisdom.
This. A rounded approach using a blend of inputs, especially the eye ball test. At the end of it all, I have to factor in my draft position and project who will be on the board or - to make a bold move and - trade up to get somebody I really like.

 
I don't have any scientific formula or consistent approach that I use. I guess if I had to outline my process I'd say it goes something like this:

- Build a list of players. I check the rankings on sites like NFL Draft Scout. I look at NCAA stats to see which players are thriving. I read draft forums to find new names from homers and fans who might know about players outside my region. If they mention somebody who sounds interesting, I take a look for myself. I also keep a loose watch on high school recruiting rankings, which helps build some familiarity with each group of players before they even step on the field in the NCAA. Many players like Lache Seastrunk, Julio Jones, Adrian Peterson, AJ Green, and Andrew Luck were known as potential prodigies from an early age.

- I watch games and highlights. For QBs, I think it's necessary to watch complete games to see how the players function. I look for things like consistency, accuracy, poise, demeanor (confidence), improvisational ability, and arm strength. I think the NFL does a good job of weeding out the players who lack the physical talent to succeed, so mainly what you need to do is try to determine who has the right stuff between the ears. Stats can help in that regard, but you're not going to get all the answers from a stat sheet or a highlight reel. I think you need to see how a QB functions in the flow of the game (or several games) before you can really know him. On the other hand, I think highlights will tell you most of what you need to know about a RB/WR/TE since success at those positions largely hinges on pure physical ability (and physical ability is apparent very quickly). I think I can get a rough idea if a RB/WR/TE has NFL potential based on a few minutes of clips, but I typically go deeper than that once my interest is piqued. These days you can find game cuts for most high-profile draft prospects. It's also pretty easy to find complete games on YouTube for most major BCS contests. If I'm really stuck on a player, what I'll sometimes do is pull up a game on YouTube, look at the play-by-play on ESPN, and watch every one of his touches/targets/etc.

- In terms of what traits I'm looking for, it would take me a long time to thoroughly explain that. To put it simply, at RB I'm looking for active feet, economy of movement (fluidity), quickness/elusiveness, power, speed, vision, and body type. There are lots of different styles that can work though, so one or two flaws aren't necessarily a dealbreaker if other things are exceptional. At WR/TE, I'm looking for economy of movement, quickness out of breaks (probably the most important trait), body type, body control, hands, speed, and open field skills. I already said a bit about QBs, but to put it more simply I look for consistent and productive passers who never get rattled or scared. I think one of the hallmark signs of an elite QB is that you expect his team to score every time he has the ball instead of hoping that he'll score. Obviously there's a lot more to it than that, but I've done reasonably well at this position over the years by simply avoiding guys whose production doesn't match their hype and/or physical tools.

- I look at combine numbers. If a prospect has special physical qualities, they will often show up in the testing. Looking at the height/weight in conjunction with results in the drills is also a really good way to crystallize the player's style and find NFL parallels. That can then help you understand how similar players have succeeded/failed in the past, which can in turn inform your analysis of that player's chances. Having said that, I'll offer a word of caution. I don't think combine numbers can give you a comprehensive understanding of a player's physical tools. For my money, there is no drill around that can gauge overall fluidity or first step quickness. And those two traits can carry a player a long way in football. Just look at LeSean McCoy and Anquan Boldin. Likewise, I think the numbers flat out lie sometimes. The numbers say Chad Johnson and Antonio Brown are terrible athletes with no explosiveness. Anyone who saw those guys play in their prime would know otherwise.

- Partially for that reason, I've become an increasingly big fan of watching the players run through the position drills at the combine. I find that I can sometimes get a better sense for movement skills in that environment than I can from watching grainy bird's eye footage of players in pads and uniforms. Strange as it might sound, I've found that something as simple as the sock color can affect my perception of a player from one reel to another. Seeing them in a neutral environment where they can't hide helps cut through a lot of that. Watching these guys last year, there seemed to be a decent correlation between how impressive they looked in the drills and how well they adapted to the NFL. So that's something I'll be keying on this year.

- I also read other sources to get their take on players. There's lots of awful analysis out there, but if you find some sources you can trust then it can be helpful. The guys at College Football News (cfn.scout.com) don't get a lot of attention, but their work is generally very good. Tony Pauline and Rob Rang are good. I also think the guys at NEPatriotsDraft.com have pretty good assessments on players. If I'm on the fence about a player, sometimes I'll just defer the consensus among my trusted sources.

- Lastly, I look at draft position. It's probably the single most important objective variable to consider since there's a clear and significant relationship between how high someone is drafted and how good of a career he's likely to have. I try to develop a strong understanding of players before the draft, but after the draft I use the draft order as a rough starting point for assembling my final rankings. I allow myself a lot of movement within tiers (for example favoring one top 32 pick over another top 32 pick), but I try not to do too much movement across tiers (for example ranking a 6th round NFL draft pick ahead of a 1st round NFL draft pick). I find that being aggressive within tiers and conservative across tiers is a good way to ensure that I still end up with a lot of "my guys" while also preventing myself from making too many criminal reaches.

 
You HAVE TO go with the professional talent evaluators. There are several members here who's opinion I respect deeply, but the Pro process is pretty legit. Skill evaluation only tells you so much about a player. NFL teams get to conduct closed door interviews with players and I think that reveals just as much as watching the tape. I feel like more and more will be seeing prospects who are only interested in paycheck. Weeding those guys out will be the next big challenge.

 
Gentlemen;

I really appreciate the feedback! Some great information here.

You can never have too much information when it comes to this kind of discussion. I'd love to see more!

Thanks!

 
You HAVE TO go with the professional talent evaluators. There are several members here who's opinion I respect deeply, but the Pro process is pretty legit. Skill evaluation only tells you so much about a player. NFL teams get to conduct closed door interviews with players and I think that reveals just as much as watching the tape. I feel like more and more will be seeing prospects who are only interested in paycheck. Weeding those guys out will be the next big challenge.
To paraphrase a former scout I follow on twitter, there are many on the scouting level that are better than the con men making decisions. Problem is the decision makers are the basis of the professional talent evaluators you reference above. There are certain scouting departments I trust that will cause me to flip flop on a prospect, but certainly not all of them.

 
I watch the YouTube constantly. Highlights of players are all over the place on the YouTube. The only thing I wish the YouTube had was a slow button where you can watch the highlights in slow motion. I will sit for two-three weekends watching highlights before and after the draft just for clarification. My bookmarks menu is full come draft time. I make up lists as to their future fantasy production after the highlights.

If I come to a consensus about two people, I don't believe in the coin toss method to separate them. I chose the best one based on the colors of the team that drafted them. The more pretty the colors, that player is place above the other.

Works every time.
I download the videos so I can easily watch certain plays frame by frame. There are things you can see better by doing it this way rather than to just play it straight, start to finish.

 
1st, usually I rate the top 7 or 8 hyped guys in my own order and will keep that order and don't change it much. I don't care if they slipped a little in the draft (when I say slipped I mean if they fell into the 3rd or early 4th... once they hit fifth I need to re-eval myself) or if they went to a "bad" situation, talent almost always rises. I evaluate by watching highlights and reading expert opinions (their experts and I'm not).

Now I say Hyped because their usually the 1st 10 or so to get drafted by the other owners in the league. This sometimes make my 1st round picks look like reaches and theres been bad picks by me but this has worked more times than not. An example is when I took Luck over Martin at 1.02 in a 16 teamer; in that league scoring I rated only Richardson over Luck and stood to my guns on draft day / a bad example of this is when I took Eifert over Lacy in a league last yr :( .

Now when it comes to the 2nd round or later I rely a lot on players draft position and expert opinions more so than how I feel about a player. This imo causes me to take the "safer" pick instead of the swing for the fences. If theres still a "swing for the fences" in the late 3rd or 4th I might go for it some years.

 
My RB evals are the only ones I have total confidence in. I just watch the clips and look for balance, acceleration, footwork, extra yards beyond what a lesser player would give. The combine then completes the picture for me.

The other positions I'm largely dependent on what I read. Clips and highlights tend to focus on the ball. For the QB's, WR's and TE's a lot happens away from the ball.
About the same for me. We are not at practice each day so for a lot, you find a good resource like FBG and you read up on how these young Rbs are progressing thru the preseason. Any injury like a sprain for a rookie, esp WR means to me they will start off slow as they need time to practice in the system.

 

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