I know, wrong forum, but AROD TESTED POSITIVE FOR ROIDS in 03 (1 Viewer)

[Statorama]

Lot of egg on my face. I wanted to believe that he was one of the clean ones, and it kept me from seeing all the evidence to the contrary.

I've always got Griffey I guess.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

Lot of egg on my face. I wanted to believe that he was one of the clean ones, and it kept me from seeing all the evidence to the contrary.I've always got Griffey I guess.

I can't wait until he gets caught. He is a huge juicer. I have no idea why people think he is clean.

 

[Statorama]

Lot of egg on my face. I wanted to believe that he was one of the clean ones, and it kept me from seeing all the evidence to the contrary.I've always got Griffey I guess.

I can't wait until he gets caught. He is a huge juicer. I have no idea why people think he is clean.

:X Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[Finless]

Whatever you think of A-Rod, his clutch abilities, steroids, or his photographs kissing himself, one thing is obvious...

If he really tipped pitches to opponents in blowout games, he's a disgrace. I say that with no hyperbole -- if this guy is doing stuff like this, and other players were reciprocating, they're all disgusting.

What does this even mean? I know what tipping pitches is but not really sure what it means here.

 

[blackjack23]

Whatever you think of A-Rod, his clutch abilities, steroids, or his photographs kissing himself, one thing is obvious...

If he really tipped pitches to opponents in blowout games, he's a disgrace. I say that with no hyperbole -- if this guy is doing stuff like this, and other players were reciprocating, they're all disgusting.

What does this even mean? I know what tipping pitches is but not really sure what it means here.

It sounds like he "told" opposing batters what pitches were coming in blowout games by giving some kind of signals in hopes that the batters would reciprocate to him when he was at-bat. All with the idea they can drive their BA up during blowout games.

 

[Michael Brown]

Whatever you think of A-Rod, his clutch abilities, steroids, or his photographs kissing himself, one thing is obvious...

If he really tipped pitches to opponents in blowout games, he's a disgrace. I say that with no hyperbole -- if this guy is doing stuff like this, and other players were reciprocating, they're all disgusting.

What does this even mean? I know what tipping pitches is but not really sure what it means here.

It sounds like he "told" opposing batters what pitches were coming in blowout games by giving some kind of signals in hopes that the batters would reciprocate to him when he was at-bat. All with the idea they can drive their BA up during blowout games.

Could lend some credence to the theories about why he hits so well in games that are blowouts while struggling in tighter contests. Is it possible that his entire career has been pretty much a sham?ETA: Obviously the guy's very talented, but if the stuff about him doing this in high school is true, then he'd never have been the number one prospect like he was. Maybe he's just Alan Trammell (no knock on Trammell) but with a truckload of roids and a cheater's mentality.

 

[blackjack23]

Whatever you think of A-Rod, his clutch abilities, steroids, or his photographs kissing himself, one thing is obvious...

If he really tipped pitches to opponents in blowout games, he's a disgrace. I say that with no hyperbole -- if this guy is doing stuff like this, and other players were reciprocating, they're all disgusting.

What does this even mean? I know what tipping pitches is but not really sure what it means here.

It sounds like he "told" opposing batters what pitches were coming in blowout games by giving some kind of signals in hopes that the batters would reciprocate to him when he was at-bat. All with the idea they can drive their BA up during blowout games.

Could lend some credence to the theories about why he hits so well in games that are blowouts while struggling in tighter contests. Is it possible that his entire career has been pretty much a sham?ETA: Obviously the guy's very talented, but if the stuff about him doing this in high school is true, then he'd never have been the number one prospect like he was. Maybe he's just Alan Trammell (no knock on Trammell) but with a truckload of roids and a cheater's mentality.

That would be some conspiracy man. Hed need a tipster on every team. Sounds unlikely.

 

[Michael Brown]

Whatever you think of A-Rod, his clutch abilities, steroids, or his photographs kissing himself, one thing is obvious...

If he really tipped pitches to opponents in blowout games, he's a disgrace. I say that with no hyperbole -- if this guy is doing stuff like this, and other players were reciprocating, they're all disgusting.

What does this even mean? I know what tipping pitches is but not really sure what it means here.

It sounds like he "told" opposing batters what pitches were coming in blowout games by giving some kind of signals in hopes that the batters would reciprocate to him when he was at-bat. All with the idea they can drive their BA up during blowout games.

Could lend some credence to the theories about why he hits so well in games that are blowouts while struggling in tighter contests. Is it possible that his entire career has been pretty much a sham?ETA: Obviously the guy's very talented, but if the stuff about him doing this in high school is true, then he'd never have been the number one prospect like he was. Maybe he's just Alan Trammell (no knock on Trammell) but with a truckload of roids and a cheater's mentality.

That would be some conspiracy man. Hed need a tipster on every team. Sounds unlikely.

True. I probably overreacted to that part of it, and it probably didn't help him a ton. But it's still horrible because even if you think it doesn't matter in the scope of the game (wins and losses), it's still helping out an opponent's batting average at the expense of your own teammate's ERA. Probably mop-up guys who are fringe major leaguers whose careers you're talking about. Terrible.

 

[blackjack23]

True. I probably overreacted to that part of it, and it probably didn't help him a ton. But it's still horrible because even if you think it doesn't matter in the scope of the game (wins and losses), it's still helping out an opponent's batting average at the expense of your own teammate's ERA. Probably mop-up guys who are fringe major leaguers whose careers you're talking about. Terrible.

It is horrible if true. I wonder what her source for this is.

 

[Limp Ditka]

I'm loving every minute of this and the trail of dead is fantastic.

Palmerio

A Rod

Bonds

McGwire

Clemens.

Even before all this went down, and their names got sullied, there's not a likeable person in the group.

 

[Michael Brown]

I'm loving every minute of this and the trail of dead is fantastic.PalmerioA RodBondsMcGwireClemens.Even before all this went down, and their names got sullied, there's not a likeable person in the group.

(even though I did root for Clemens big-time as a Yankee, and I don't know anyone who disliked Mac before the roid stuff)

 

[dparker713]

True. I probably overreacted to that part of it, and it probably didn't help him a ton. But it's still horrible because even if you think it doesn't matter in the scope of the game (wins and losses), it's still helping out an opponent's batting average at the expense of your own teammate's ERA. Probably mop-up guys who are fringe major leaguers whose careers you're talking about. Terrible.

It is horrible if true. I wonder what her source for this is.

There are a few problems with this claim that I see. First off, he needed to have signals worked out with other players. Hopefully she didnt do the same shoddy journalism she did in the Duke Lacrosse case, and actually got specific signals and went back to the tape and documented instances of him doing this. Second, he'd need to have figured out the catcher's signals. They do tend to switch them up and I've no idea why he would know them. Finally, how exactly would he have approached other players about this? He doesnt exactly seem like a smooth guy, so I find it unlikely that he was able to pull this off without screwing up a few times and trying to get players to go along that turned him in.

 

[Michael Brown]

True. I probably overreacted to that part of it, and it probably didn't help him a ton. But it's still horrible because even if you think it doesn't matter in the scope of the game (wins and losses), it's still helping out an opponent's batting average at the expense of your own teammate's ERA. Probably mop-up guys who are fringe major leaguers whose careers you're talking about. Terrible.

It is horrible if true. I wonder what her source for this is.

There are a few problems with this claim that I see. First off, he needed to have signals worked out with other players. Hopefully she didnt do the same shoddy journalism she did in the Duke Lacrosse case, and actually got specific signals and went back to the tape and documented instances of him doing this. Second, he'd need to have figured out the catcher's signals. They do tend to switch them up and I've no idea why he would know them. Finally, how exactly would he have approached other players about this? He doesnt exactly seem like a smooth guy, so I find it unlikely that he was able to pull this off without screwing up a few times and trying to get players to go along that turned him in.

I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he hasn't really earned it. Then again, neither has she. I guess the only one you can believe anymore is Jose Canseco.

 

[dparker713]

True. I probably overreacted to that part of it, and it probably didn't help him a ton. But it's still horrible because even if you think it doesn't matter in the scope of the game (wins and losses), it's still helping out an opponent's batting average at the expense of your own teammate's ERA. Probably mop-up guys who are fringe major leaguers whose careers you're talking about. Terrible.

It is horrible if true. I wonder what her source for this is.

There are a few problems with this claim that I see. First off, he needed to have signals worked out with other players. Hopefully she didnt do the same shoddy journalism she did in the Duke Lacrosse case, and actually got specific signals and went back to the tape and documented instances of him doing this. Second, he'd need to have figured out the catcher's signals. They do tend to switch them up and I've no idea why he would know them. Finally, how exactly would he have approached other players about this? He doesnt exactly seem like a smooth guy, so I find it unlikely that he was able to pull this off without screwing up a few times and trying to get players to go along that turned him in.

I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he hasn't really earned it. Then again, neither has she. I guess the only one you can believe anymore is Jose Canseco.

Im just waiting to see some actual evidence of this claim. Seeing as she, as a reporter, doesn't even understand the meaning of 'irrefutable', Im not taking her word for anything.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

True. I probably overreacted to that part of it, and it probably didn't help him a ton. But it's still horrible because even if you think it doesn't matter in the scope of the game (wins and losses), it's still helping out an opponent's batting average at the expense of your own teammate's ERA. Probably mop-up guys who are fringe major leaguers whose careers you're talking about. Terrible.

It is horrible if true. I wonder what her source for this is.

There are a few problems with this claim that I see. First off, he needed to have signals worked out with other players. Hopefully she didnt do the same shoddy journalism she did in the Duke Lacrosse case, and actually got specific signals and went back to the tape and documented instances of him doing this. Second, he'd need to have figured out the catcher's signals. They do tend to switch them up and I've no idea why he would know them. Finally, how exactly would he have approached other players about this? He doesnt exactly seem like a smooth guy, so I find it unlikely that he was able to pull this off without screwing up a few times and trying to get players to go along that turned him in.

uhh...he's on the same team as the catcher?? & the latino's stick together. it wouldn't be that hard to work out. "hey bro,if i put my hand in my glove when you're batting, it's a fastball"

 

[Dexter Manley]

Here's how he did it:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/base...ex.html?eref=T1

SI.com: The book claims that A-Rod tipped opposing players to pitches in the late innings of blowouts, an affront not only to teammates but also to the integrity of the game. How often was this practice performed and how does this affect his standing with his peers?

Selena Roberts: The pitch-tipping was often enough over three years to become a pattern noticeable by the ex-Rangers sources that I spoke to. Only a small number of Rangers knew about the quid pro quo that Alex was involved in and did not want it to spread around the clubhouse because it would have been devastating to the team.

SI.com: How did this pitch-tipping originate?

Selena Roberts: I don't know the history of how it has worked in the major leagues, but from my reporting and the people I spoke with on the Rangers, what they noticed was a pattern of behavior by Alex over a pretty lengthy period of time, two or three years, where it just became more noticeable that his mannerisms on the field were different in games that were already over, its 10-2, something like that. When games were already decided, they noticed this behavior with Alex where he would do very obvious signs, presumably to an opposing hitter who would be a middle infielder on an opposing team, where they believed that he would tip the signs.

SI.com: Why was he doing this?

Roberts: What this was all part of was a quid pro quo, according to the people I spoke with. Alex would tip his middle infielder buddy on the other team and the player on the other team would in turn tip Alex. What it was was slump insurance. You could count on your buddy to help you break out of your slump, if you're 0 for 3 or you've had a bad week. There was no intent to throw a game or change the outcome.

SI.com: How would he tip the pitches?

Roberts: If it was a changeup, sources say, he would twist his glove hand. To indicate a slider, he would allegedly sweep the dirt in front of him, and he would bend in the direction of where the pitch was going to be, inside or outside. I don't know that it's easy to decode. You're talking about people who see a player on an every-day basis, day after day, year after year. I don't know that it would be at all obvious to people who are watching or to a television audience. These are people who would know how to detect when things don't feel right. If it happened once or twice, people might say, Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe we didn't see what we thought we saw. But according to the people that I spoke with, this was a pattern of behavior.

SI.com: So if teammates noticed it, how did they handle it?

Roberts: At least one teammate in a very gentle way did say, "Hey, you might be tipping a little too soon out there." What would usually happen would be for Alex to signal the pitch to his teammates as the pitcher was in the windup; that way the batter is focused on the pitcher and not able to see the sign. However, these signs Alex would flash came before the windup and that made it more noticeable. This is the critical difference between signaling your infield as quarterback and giving away the pitch to the hitter: when you flash the sign. This was done to give the batter plenty of time to see it and figure out what to do about it.

But one player trying to be diplomatic told me that he said, "I think you're tipping a little too soon," and the response from Alex was, "What are you talking about?" I don't think Alex was irritated at the player; I think he felt that he had been scrutinized too closely, that someone else was trying to tell him how to do his job. These people who knew about it or witnessed it knew how it would play in the clubhouse if it became an issue. These were all reasons why it didn't become a bigger deal than it was, because people wanted to keep it under wraps.

SI.com: How many people knew about this?

Roberts: I think it was kept to a very small group of people. The people that are noticing this, it's not something that you want to tell anybody else. You want to keep it to yourself until it becomes something you can't ignore anymore. If this had been a situation where it was determining the outcome of a game, obviously it would have been a much different story.

 

[The Man with the Plan]

I don't know what that ##### is talking about. You can gain 20 pounds of muscle in 6 months. It's not easy but it's definitely possible.

Only in America can someone make money selling a book that might as well be called #### You A-Rod.

 

[The Ghost of Common]

I don't know what that ##### is talking about. You can gain 20 pounds of muscle in 6 months. It's not easy but it's definitely possible.Only in America can someone make money selling a book that might as well be called #### You A-Rod.

at the Arod apologist.Chill out guy.There's not a person with a brain that bought ARods story about the timeline in which he did steroids. There's not a person with a brain that bought ARods story about now knowing the affect of what the steroids did to him. Dude's trash.

 

[Michael Brown]

I don't know what that ##### is talking about. You can gain 20 pounds of muscle in 6 months. It's not easy but it's definitely possible.Only in America can someone make money selling a book that might as well be called #### You A-Rod.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it's physiologically possible for a high school junior to naturally put on 25 pounds of muscle in 6 months. During the offseason at age 30 is a stretch, but possible...the other, not so much.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

This has gotten out of control with all the high school stuff and the alleged nicknames he was called. What a ####### soap opera.

 

[Adebisi]

Who cares if he did steroids or not?

He's still the best baseball player that any one of us have ever seen, and only Barry Bonds is close.

 

[Michael Brown]

Who cares if he did steroids or not?He's still the best baseball player that any one of us have ever seen, and only Barry Bonds is close.

You're right! Why didn't I think of that???Oh wait, I don't agree with you.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Who cares if he did steroids or not?He's still the best baseball player that any one of us have ever seen, and only Barry Bonds is close.

Bonds was better.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Yes, Bonds was better, and unless he suffers a career-ending injury in the next few years, Pujols will go down as being better, too.

 

[Smack Tripper]

to this roid stuff.

Nothing worse than what came out in Feb.

His reputation is already somewhat reminscent of a turd, so when you're rep is destroyed, how much lower can it go? The biggest punishment you can inflict on this guy has already been afflicted, the revokation of his place in history. Now I certainly believe he'll be delusional enough to go out and pick up these records for homers, rbi's maybe runs and hits and be perfectly content seeing his name at the top of this list. But this guy more than any other athlete I've EVER seen needs to be loved and appreciated and that just will not happen as he wants it to.

However, this pitch tipping stuff is a whole other story and I want to hear what this lying, purple lipped buffoon has to say about it!

 

[Smack Tripper]

Yes, Bonds was better, and unless he suffers a career-ending injury in the next few years, Pujols will go down as being better, too.

Not to defend him, but under the "all things being equal" term of discussion, I think you need to consider that he's played SS and 3b his entire career, entirely different challenges. By the time Bonds was "the greatest ever"(after he missed the all-century team in 99) he was a statue in left. If you want to call Pujols or Bonds the greatest HITTER we've ever seen, I'm more willing to listen, but A-Rod's gotta be the best player.

 

[dparker713]

Yes, Bonds was better, and unless he suffers a career-ending injury in the next few years, Pujols will go down as being better, too.

Not to defend him, but under the "all things being equal" term of discussion, I think you need to consider that he's played SS and 3b his entire career, entirely different challenges. By the time Bonds was "the greatest ever"(after he missed the all-century team in 99) he was a statue in left. If you want to call Pujols or Bonds the greatest HITTER we've ever seen, I'm more willing to listen, but A-Rod's gotta be the best player.

Well, ARod is ahead 3-1 in gold gloves, but Alex isnt going to win another anytime soon and Pujols could very well win quite a few more. As far as basestealing, ARod is certainly going to wind up with a large advantage in that category, but Pujols is highly effective when he does run and he's one of the best baserunners I've ever seen. There is certainly added value to the positions ARod has played, but its not going to be a slam dunk - provided Pujols can stay relatively healthy.

 

[blackjack23]

Who cares if he did steroids or not?He's still the best baseball player that any one of us have ever seen, and only Barry Bonds is close.

I think Pujols did steroids too but Pujols > ARod

 

[blackjack23]

BTW I find it very hard to believe that teammates knew about his pitch tipping and just let it go on. I would think they wouldve ripped him a new ####### for doing so. Especially guys like Michael Young (who is supposedly friends with ARod).

 

[blackjack23]

to this roid stuff.Nothing worse than what came out in Feb. His reputation is already somewhat reminscent of a turd, so when you're rep is destroyed, how much lower can it go? The biggest punishment you can inflict on this guy has already been afflicted, the revokation of his place in history. Now I certainly believe he'll be delusional enough to go out and pick up these records for homers, rbi's maybe runs and hits and be perfectly content seeing his name at the top of this list. But this guy more than any other athlete I've EVER seen needs to be loved and appreciated and that just will not happen as he wants it to. However, this pitch tipping stuff is a whole other story and I want to hear what this lying, purple lipped buffoon has to say about it!

Really couldnt have said it better myself

 

[blackjack23]

Alex Rodriguez was an insecure prima donna who made a clubhouse attendant load his toothbrush with toothpaste after every game in his three seasons with the Texas Rangers, a new book charges.

The Rangers were also required to send a basket of food to the controversial All-Star's hotel suite during road trips, Sports Illustrated columnist Selena Roberts reports in "A-Rod."

Many Texas teammates kept their distance from A-Rod, who they saw as a spoiled superstar. His relationship with other players didn't improve when Rodriguez joined the Yankees in 2004.

His Bomber teammates regarded A-Rod as a phony and a hypocrite because he tried to project an All-American public image while pursuing a swinger's lifestyle.

During a series in Texas, Roberts writes, A-Rod went to a sex club while his wife, Cynthia, pregnant with their first child, was at home in New York.

Rodriguez also turned off teammates by bragging about wild nights with strippers - and by making clumsy passes at other players' wives and girlfriends.

"He would use these corny pickup lines on a guy's wife," one former teammate told Roberts. "He just wanted to know that he could, not that he would act on it. Seemed like an ego thing."

As the Daily News first reported Thursday, "A-Rod" contends Rodriguez may have bulked up with steroids as early as high school. It also suggests the third baseman regularly used human growth hormone after he joined the Yankees in 2004.

Rodriguez acknowledged using performance-enhancing drugs after Roberts and S.I. reporter David Epstein reported earlier this year that he tested positive for steroids in Major League Baseball's 2003 survey testing.

Rodriguez insisted he only used the illicit drugs from 2001 to 2003, while playing for Texas. He told reporters last spring that he stopped using steroids before joining the Yankees.

"A-Rod" was to be released on May 12, but publisher HarperCollins moved up the release to Monday after The News revealed some of the book's bombshell allegations.

Roberts also details Rodriguez's obsession with teammate Derek Jeter. Players who accompanied A-Rod to clubs said his favorite pickup line was "Who's hotter, me or Derek Jeter?"

Roberts writes that Jeter bested Rodriguez in charity efforts: Jeter's Turn 2 Foundaton donated more than $15 million to charities over an 11-year period beginning in 1997. Rodriguez's AROD Family Foundation was beset by administrative problems and was temporarily shut down in Florida in 2008.

"There was Jeter, always besting him, even as the humble do-gooder," Roberts wrote.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/0...0EGPiLSVH&B

Is Selena Roberts seriously putting out a book with this information? She sounds like a scorned ex-lover or something. Shes gonna lose a lot of credibility with these stupid soap opera stories. Does anybody honestly give two ####s anymore?

 

[Tom Servo]

There are a few problems with this claim that I see. First off, he needed to have signals worked out with other players.

He used to be a SS, remember? It's not that hard, really.

Hopefully she didnt do the same shoddy journalism she did in the Duke Lacrosse case, and actually got specific signals and went back to the tape and documented instances of him doing this.

I hope so. However, she wasn't the only one who thought the rich white boys were automatically guilty. Some guy named Neifong thought that too.

Second, he'd need to have figured out the catcher's signals. They do tend to switch them up and I've no idea why he would know them.

Again, he was a SS. He would be very familiar with the signals. He would also communicate with the 2B on who was covering second on a steal attempt. Thus, he needs to know the signals.

Finally, how exactly would he have approached other players about this? He doesnt exactly seem like a smooth guy, so I find it unlikely that he was able to pull this off without screwing up a few times and trying to get players to go along that turned him in.

I imagine if you can seek out the weak-hitting SS of the other team who could use a slump-buster that doesn't involve spending $20 in drinks, then I think you could strike a deal pretty easily.

 

[dparker713]

There are a few problems with this claim that I see. First off, he needed to have signals worked out with other players.

He used to be a SS, remember? It's not that hard, really.

Hopefully she didnt do the same shoddy journalism she did in the Duke Lacrosse case, and actually got specific signals and went back to the tape and documented instances of him doing this.

I hope so. However, she wasn't the only one who thought the rich white boys were automatically guilty. Some guy named Neifong thought that too.

Second, he'd need to have figured out the catcher's signals. They do tend to switch them up and I've no idea why he would know them.

Again, he was a SS. He would be very familiar with the signals. He would also communicate with the 2B on who was covering second on a steal attempt. Thus, he needs to know the signals.

Finally, how exactly would he have approached other players about this? He doesnt exactly seem like a smooth guy, so I find it unlikely that he was able to pull this off without screwing up a few times and trying to get players to go along that turned him in.

I imagine if you can seek out the weak-hitting SS of the other team who could use a slump-buster that doesn't involve spending $20 in drinks, then I think you could strike a deal pretty easily.

She went well beyond in the Duke case after the accusations had fell apart. So Im not about to believe her absent actual proof.In his blog, Neyer indicated that pitch tipping has a long history and cites Bull Durham as a way in which it normally happens. Its not something I thought would go on in the majors, but if thats the case than my problem wouldnt so much be with ARod specifically as the practice in general.

 

[Tom Servo]

She went well beyond in the Duke case after the accusations had fell apart. So Im not about to believe her absent actual proof.In his blog, Neyer indicated that pitch tipping has a long history and cites Bull Durham as a way in which it normally happens. Its not something I thought would go on in the majors, but if thats the case than my problem wouldnt so much be with ARod specifically as the practice in general.

I would agree with you on Roberts. She seems to be an arrogant little so-and-so with an agenda. I'd have no problem waiting for other sources to confirm this information.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Yes, Bonds was better, and unless he suffers a career-ending injury in the next few years, Pujols will go down as being better, too.

Not to defend him, but under the "all things being equal" term of discussion, I think you need to consider that he's played SS and 3b his entire career, entirely different challenges. By the time Bonds was "the greatest ever"(after he missed the all-century team in 99) he was a statue in left. If you want to call Pujols or Bonds the greatest HITTER we've ever seen, I'm more willing to listen, but A-Rod's gotta be the best player.

I think we also need to consider Rodriguez's legendary flame-outs in the playoffs. Like it or not, his repeated failings in the playoffs work against him. He actually did well in the playoffs before coming to NY, but his overall batting average of .279 is pretty subpar for a guy of his stature. On the other hand, Pujols has almost always been a clutch guy in the playoffs (he has hit .300 or better in 8 of 11 playoff series he has played in). When both guys are done playing, their overall resumes will probably be pretty comparable, but unless A-Rod does something in the postseason for the Yankees, he is gonna come up woefully short in that all-important category. Bonds' pitiful playoff numbers (.245 all-time) combined with his average defense do not help his case. But his power numbers in his prime were so obscene, that many will argue in his favor, steroids notwithstanding, and that is fine. Just adding some perspective here...

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Yes, Bonds was better, and unless he suffers a career-ending injury in the next few years, Pujols will go down as being better, too.

Not to defend him, but under the "all things being equal" term of discussion, I think you need to consider that he's played SS and 3b his entire career, entirely different challenges. By the time Bonds was "the greatest ever"(after he missed the all-century team in 99) he was a statue in left. If you want to call Pujols or Bonds the greatest HITTER we've ever seen, I'm more willing to listen, but A-Rod's gotta be the best player.

Bonds had individual seasons that compare to Ted Williams and Babe Ruth, 8 gold gloves, 7 MVPs, 500 SBs, and his OPS was at least .999 every single year he played after 1991. He has 10 all-time OPS+ seasons (five of those prior to him allegedly taking steroids) in the top 200 all-time and he holds the top three spots for his 2001, 2002, and 2004 seasons. A-Rod has zero OPS+ seasons in the top 200 all-time, Pujols already has 3. For certain you can not now or ever make an argument that A-Rod was a better hitter than Bonds because it's simply not supported by the statistics or by the human eye. With the stolen bases and gold gloves Bonds to me is a better all around player regardless of what A-Rod does for the rest of his career. And since they both are accused of using steroids, we can certainly make the comparison without having to end up on a tangent. I do agree A-rod has played a tougher position and he's been above average at SS, and average at 3B. But he's not a great fielder and I'm not going to say he is a better player solely on position. Mike Schmidt was the best 3Bman ever but just because he played 3B doesn't make me think he was a better player than say Rogers Hornsby or Jimmy Foxx.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Yes, Bonds was better, and unless he suffers a career-ending injury in the next few years, Pujols will go down as being better, too.

Not to defend him, but under the "all things being equal" term of discussion, I think you need to consider that he's played SS and 3b his entire career, entirely different challenges. By the time Bonds was "the greatest ever"(after he missed the all-century team in 99) he was a statue in left. If you want to call Pujols or Bonds the greatest HITTER we've ever seen, I'm more willing to listen, but A-Rod's gotta be the best player.

Bonds had individual seasons that compare to Ted Williams and Babe Ruth, 8 gold gloves, 7 MVPs, 500 SBs, and his OPS was at least .999 every single year he played after 1991. He has 10 all-time OPS+ seasons (five of those prior to him allegedly taking steroids) in the top 200 all-time and he holds the top three spots for his 2001, 2002, and 2004 seasons. A-Rod has zero OPS+ seasons in the top 200 all-time, Pujols already has 3. For certain you can not now or ever make an argument that A-Rod was a better hitter than Bonds because it's simply not supported by the statistics or by the human eye. With the stolen bases and gold gloves Bonds to me is a better all around player regardless of what A-Rod does for the rest of his career. And since they both are accused of using steroids, we can certainly make the comparison without having to end up on a tangent. I do agree A-rod has played a tougher position and he's been above average at SS, and average at 3B. But he's not a great fielder and I'm not going to say he is a better player solely on position. Mike Schmidt was the best 3Bman ever but just because he played 3B doesn't make me think he was a better player than say Rogers Hornsby or Jimmy Foxx.

The OPS + seasons and the disparity between are certainly compelling arguments for Bonds. However, regarding comparing fielders, its hard for me to say there are any GREAT left fielders. Its a position thats even weaker than first base reputation wise for fielding. My contention has always been, if a guy in left were any good, he'd be in center. I will say though, if there any LFers to be considred great, Bonds would be right at the top of them. At least at 1b you deal with lefty fielding infielders who might lack the footspeed to be solid OFers, but are still quick and proficient with the glove. That said though, first base is its own sort of ghetto. In the example provided, defense shouldn't far outweigh a guy, but in a comparable situation, I think the position needs to be considered. Schmidt is no more Jimmie Foxx or Hornsby than he's Babe Ruth, but I think he's better than Reggie Jackson, a contemporary with slightly better digits, because he did play a challenging position. Its a bit of a tiebreaking equalizer, and not be all end all factor but you need to give it some gravity.