Ichiro Suzuki - HOF worthy? (1 Viewer)

[guru_007]

Simple question. Guy played most of his prime in Japan. He'll be 33 this year, so figure maybe another 2-3 years at his current rate and then a decline. Didn't start playing in the Majors until he was 27 years old.

Currently brings the following to the table:

.332 lifetime average

1,130 hits (in 796 career games)

5 time gold glove winner (in 5 seasons)

190 career steals

561 career runs

5 time all-star

2001 AL MVP/Rookier of Year/Silver Slugger

1st or 2nd in the MLB in hits every year he's played, including 262 in 2004 which I believe is the most ever in a single season.

I say yes. Even though he'll more than likely not reach 3,000 hits in his career.

 

[pantagrapher]

I say yes. Not only has he played superbly in the field and at the plate, but his arrival signalled another important cultural shift in baseball. I only wish we could have gotten him here sooner. His style of play and attitude are great for the game. And when all's said and done, his stats will merit HOF consideration.

 

[Doug B]

Before I answer:

Has the Baseball Hall of Fame ever inducted any players from the Japanese League before? I'm thinking not ... though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Sadaharu Oh is in. The only non American/National Leaguers in the HOF are pre-20th-century and Negro Leaguers, correct?

The Basketball and Hockey HOFs have both inducted Soviet players, for example. If the Baseball HOF were to do something similar, and credit Ichiro with his Japanese stats + MLB stats, he's a HOF lock. If he only gets credit for his MLB career, he'll run out of time.

 

[Doug B]

I say yes. Not only has he played superbly in the field and at the plate, but his arrival signalled another important cultural shift in baseball.

This is a good line of reasoning, too. Perhaps his qualifications go beyond the stat sheets.

 

[guru_007]

Before I answer:

Has the Baseball Hall of Fame ever inducted any players from the Japanese League before? I'm thinking not ... though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Sadaharu Oh is in. The only non American/National Leaguers in theh HOF are pre-20th-century and Negro Leaguers, correct?

The Basketball and Hockey HOFs have both inducted Soviet players, for example. If the Baseball HOF were to do something similar, and credit Ichiro with his Japanese stats + MLB stats, he's a HOF lock. If he only gets credit for his MLB career, he'll run out of time.

I'm fairly certain no Japanese League players are in the Hall of Fame. Sadaharu Oh is not.I'm talking Ichiro based solely on his United States MLB playing time alone....but taken with the grain of salt that he played 7 years, arguably 7 of his best years, in Japan. Look at Jackie Robinson's career stats vs. Ichiro's. Ichiro is dominating.

 

[igbomb]

Ichiro will be in without any question. When all is said and done, the guy will be a lifetime .325+ hitter with over 2000 hits, maybe 2500.

 

[jafo]

Lets see this guy produce for another 5 years and then look at his numbers. As they are right now they just aren't up to HOF standards. He needs more time. This guy has played in the MLB for what, 5 seasons? He needs more time in his MLB career before we can determine if he will be HOF bound.

Edit - Injuries have ruined many HOF potentials, but if he stays healthy and continues to be a hit machine I think he could be in.

 

[thayman]

He actually has 1244 hits in 870 games, and is a .335 career hitter in MLB. I think he will get in if he gets around 2000 hits.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4570

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

I say yes. Not only has he played superbly in the field and at the plate, but his arrival signalled another important cultural shift in baseball. I only wish we could have gotten him here sooner. His style of play and attitude are great for the game. And when all's said and done, his stats will merit HOF consideration.

Nomo was far more important in that regard. But that shouldn't diminish from what Ichiro did. I equate it with a negro league player who may not have had overwhelming MLB stats, but what they showed in MLB when extrapolated makes them a HOF player. Ichiro needs these 3 years to remain solid to be in, but I think he makes it, deservedly so.

 

[pantagrapher]

Lets see this guy produce for another 5 years and then look at his numbers. As they are right now they just aren't up to HOF standards. He needs more time. This guy has played in the MLB for what, 5 seasons? He needs more time in his MLB career before we can determine if he will be HOF bound.

Edit - Injuries have ruined many HOF potentials, but if he stays healthy and continues to be a hit machine I think he could be in.

What about Kirby Puckett? Certainly the Hall makes allowances.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

I think he'll be in for sure.

 

[thayman]

I say yes. Not only has he played superbly in the field and at the plate, but his arrival signalled another important cultural shift in baseball. I only wish we could have gotten him here sooner. His style of play and attitude are great for the game. And when all's said and done, his stats will merit HOF consideration.

Nomo was far more important in that regard. But that shouldn't diminish from what Ichiro did. I equate it with a negro league player who may not have had overwhelming MLB stats, but what they showed in MLB when extrapolated makes them a HOF player. Ichiro needs these 3 years to remain solid to be in, but I think he makes it, deservedly so.

Ichiro is equal to a black guy overcoming racisism, making crap $$ enduring the various death threats by KKK members???

 

[jafo]

Lets see this guy produce for another 5 years and then look at his numbers.  As they are right now they just aren't up to HOF standards.  He needs more time.  This guy has played in the MLB for what, 5 seasons?  He needs more time in his MLB career before we can determine if he will be HOF bound.

Edit - Injuries have ruined many HOF potentials, but if he stays healthy and continues to be a hit machine I think he could be in.

What about Kirby Puckett? Certainly the Hall makes allowances.

Kirby also had a solid 10+ seasons. I'm not sure what the benchmark is for seasons played to get into the HOF. Anyone know who the player is with the fewest seasons played that got into the HOF?

Edit - Kirby played for 12 seasons.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

I say yes. Not only has he played superbly in the field and at the plate, but his arrival signalled another important cultural shift in baseball. I only wish we could have gotten him here sooner. His style of play and attitude are great for the game. And when all's said and done, his stats will merit HOF consideration.

Nomo was far more important in that regard. But that shouldn't diminish from what Ichiro did. I equate it with a negro league player who may not have had overwhelming MLB stats, but what they showed in MLB when extrapolated makes them a HOF player. Ichiro needs these 3 years to remain solid to be in, but I think he makes it, deservedly so.

Ichiro is equal to a black guy overcoming racisism, making crap $$ enduring the various death threats by KKK members???

No, but he's equal to a guy who had to ovecome a bias about his talent, based on a perception that his hertiage was somehow inferior to the standard. Not in the same ballpark culturally, but nearly equivalent on the evaulation side. Black players were more resisted by old boy jim crowism, whereas Ichiro was bound by the free agent system, but I think many recognized their inherent talent, many also doubted what they could do based soley upon race.

 

[Keys Myaths]

I think this should be one of those "if his career ended tomorrow" discussions.

I don't think there's any doubt if he has a normal career from here on out that he's in.

 

[bj8288]

Yes. He has been elite ever since he started in MLB.

Where was Ichiro in early May? You couldn't find his name, then he gets on one of his usual hot streaks, and he is now right behind Joe Mauer.

Accumulating stats matter in baseball, but in this case, it shouldn't matter IMO.

 

[Funkley]

Not yet. But he's in the right direction.

 

[DreadedParms]

No, I think he runs out of time. You can argue that Japanese League is a major league, but you'd be incorrect. When people can't make it here, they go over there and become stars. That's evidence enough they're generally not as good as we are. Oh, I'm not saying that there aren't some good players over there, I'm just saying the general quality is not the same as the quality here.

Just because Albert Pujols was an All-Star in AAA one year and an All-Star in the Majors the next, doesn't mean that AAA is equal to the majors. The same goes for the Japanese leagues.

 

[bj8288]

No, I think he runs out of time. You can argue that Japanese League is a major league, but you'd be incorrect. When people can't make it here, they go over there and become stars. That's evidence enough they're generally not as good as we are. Oh, I'm not saying that there aren't some good players over there, I'm just saying the general quality is not the same as the quality here.

Just because Albert Pujols was an All-Star in AAA one year and an All-Star in the Majors the next, doesn't mean that AAA is equal to the majors. The same goes for the Japanese leagues.

Yeah, that's a good point. I was sitting here a couple days ago and had some game on TV, and I think some anaylst said they don't throw 2-seam fastballs in Japan. You serious?

 

[Doug B]

No, I think he runs out of time.  You can argue that Japanese League is a major league, but you'd be incorrect.  When people can't make it here, they go over there and become stars.

... I don't think this is true. Former major-leaguers in the Japanese League have turned out all kinds of ways. A few are stars, most of them have middle-of-the-road productions, and some completely flame out.

 

[pantagrapher]

No, I think he runs out of time. You can argue that Japanese League is a major league, but you'd be incorrect. When people can't make it here, they go over there and become stars. That's evidence enough they're generally not as good as we are. Oh, I'm not saying that there aren't some good players over there, I'm just saying the general quality is not the same as the quality here.

Just because Albert Pujols was an All-Star in AAA one year and an All-Star in the Majors the next, doesn't mean that AAA is equal to the majors. The same goes for the Japanese leagues.

We? Who is we? If the best players from around the world did not come to play in America, MLB might not be the league it is. MLB owes a lot to the Japanese League and to leagues in Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic and elsewhere.

 

[Dave Baker]

I've always been solidly in the camp of not caring about cumulative numbers. In fact, far too many guys are in the HOF that were never truly dominant. Instead, they were just very good for a long time and reached certain milestones that seemed to place them automatically in the HOF.

Simply put, you don't belong in the HOF simply because you had 3,000 hits or had 300 wins or hit 500 HRs. You belong if you were a dominant player for over a handful or more years.

Ichiro looks to be such a dominant player. I say he belongs and is worthy.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

No, I think he runs out of time.  You can argue that Japanese League is a major league, but you'd be incorrect.  When people can't make it here, they go over there and become stars.

... I don't think this is true. Former major-leaguers in the Japanese League have turned out all kinds of ways. A few are stars, most of them have middle-of-the-road productions, and some completely flame out.

Tuffy Rhodes = :money: in Japan

 

[TenTimes]

Anybody who owns a pretty significant record (like most hits in a single season) should be in, imo.

Didn't somebody here actually predict Ichiro's incredible record breaking season before it happened?

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

I've always been solidly in the camp of not caring about cumulative numbers. In fact, far too many guys are in the HOF that were never truly dominant. Instead, they were just very good for a long time and reached certain milestones that seemed to place them automatically in the HOF.

Simply put, you don't belong in the HOF simply because you had 3,000 hits or had 300 wins or hit 500 HRs. You belong if you were a dominant player for over a handful or more years.

Ichiro looks to be such a dominant player. I say he belongs and is worthy.

I agree with this post. He's been simply amazing as a MLBer. And its not like he was toiling in the minors in the beginning of his career, rather, he was a sports icon in Japan. There may come a day where its expected that great Japanese players make the move the MLB on a consistent basis and then it would be harder to argue for a HOF ticket for those that have played only a short while in the MLB, but that time isn't here yet.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Simply put, you don't belong in the HOF simply because you had 3,000 hits or had 300 wins or hit 500 HRs. You belong if you were a dominant player for over a handful or more years.

 

[jafo]

Simply put, you don't belong in the HOF simply because you had 3,000 hits or had 300 wins or hit 500 HRs.  You belong if you were a dominant player for over a handful or more years.

I don't completely agree with this. The amazing ability to play a whole season year after year is a feat in itself. Anyone who can put in 20 seasons and post great career numbers deserves to be in the HOF, not only for their great numbers, but for their dedication to the game.

 

[redman]

I say yes. Not only has he played superbly in the field and at the plate, but his arrival signalled another important cultural shift in baseball.

This is a good line of reasoning, too. Perhaps his qualifications go beyond the stat sheets.

He's one of the rare players for whom I'm willing to say that. I vote "yes".

 

[Dave Baker]

Simply put, you don't belong in the HOF simply because you had 3,000 hits or had 300 wins or hit 500 HRs.  You belong if you were a dominant player for over a handful or more years.

I don't completely agree with this. The amazing ability to play a whole season year after year is a feat in itself. Anyone who can put in 20 seasons and post great career numbers deserves to be in the HOF, not only for their great numbers, but for their dedication to the game.

Your mentality here is not unique, as evidenced by those elected.In my world, though, I prefer the HOF to be loaded with guys who were the very best when they played, whether that was over 5 years or 25 years.

Give me Sandy Koufax every time and not Don Sutton. Give me Roy Campanella and not Tony Perez.

While I appreicate it takes a lot to play and remain healthy for 20 years, I personally don't think it should play a huge role into the election process.

 

[jafo]

Simply put, you don't belong in the HOF simply because you had 3,000 hits or had 300 wins or hit 500 HRs.  You belong if you were a dominant player for over a handful or more years.

I don't completely agree with this. The amazing ability to play a whole season year after year is a feat in itself. Anyone who can put in 20 seasons and post great career numbers deserves to be in the HOF, not only for their great numbers, but for their dedication to the game.

Your mentality here is not unique, as evidenced by those elected.In my world, though, I prefer the HOF to be loaded with guys who were the very best when they played, whether that was over 5 years or 25 years.

Give me Sandy Koufax every time and not Don Sutton. Give me Roy Campanella and not Tony Perez.

While I appreicate it takes a lot to play and remain healthy for 20 years, I personally don't think it should play a huge role into the election process.

I wouldn't argue that the players who were clearly the best when they played shouldn't get into the hall, but whether or not they are more deserving than some of the longtime guys with great numbers is up for debate. In the age of HGH and steroids, it isn't uncommon for a player to dominate for a short time. All that drugging can catch up with you though and perhaps cut your career short.In the end, I'm guessing it comes down to which guy better represents what baseball is and was. Obviously it isn't all about the stats as Pete Rose looks on and waits. I believe the HOF has a specific image they want to keep, so it will be very interesting to see how the player selection plays out for the next 10 years.

 

[General Malaise]

Check out some of the records he shattered in 2004:

Record-setting 2004 season

Ichiro set a number of Major League records during the 2004 season:

August 26: With a home run off of Kansas City Royals reliever Jeremy Affeldt, Ichiro became the first player in Major League history to reach 200 hits in each of his first four seasons.

August 28: He became the first player in MLB history to have three 50-hit months in a single season.

September 17: He broke the major league record with his 199th single of the season in the seventh. Ichiro bettered the modern (post-1900) record of 198 set by Lloyd Waner of Pittsburgh in 1927.

September 22: Broke Harry Heilmann's 1925 record with his 135th hit on the road. It is also arguably Ichiro's hottest streak of the season as he collects nine hits over two games, 11 hits over three games (both personal season highs) and 13 hits over a four-game span (tying his personal season high).

October 1: Ichiro collected his 258th and 259th hits, breaking the record set by George Sisler with the St. Louis Browns in 1920. His 257th hit also set the Major League record for most hits over any four-year span, with 919.

October 3: Ichiro completed the 2004 season with 262 hits and an MLB-leading .372 batting average. His 225 Singles in 2004 shattered the previous all-era record of 206, set by Wee Willie Keeler in 1898. He also finished with 145 hits on the road breaking Heilmann's 79-year-old record of 134. Ichiro's 704 at bats fell one short of Willie Wilson's record of 705.

They guy broke records that stood since the 20's and before. I realize the HOF rewards players for a body of work and not just one outstanding season, but this guy came over here and broke our records that stood, in some cases, for a hundred plus years! That's amazing.

I've always said that if anybody breaks DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak, it'll be Ichiro. So long as he gets that break out of the box to run out infield hits....

And the guy weighs like 165 pounds wet...how the hell does he power up to get balls over the fence?

 

[MarshallRob]

Anybody who owns a pretty significant record (like most hits in a single season) should be in, imo.

The rules specifically state: "No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted."

 

[Leroy Hoard]

how the hell does he power up to get balls over the fence?

The guy is obviously on roids.

 

[David Yudkin]

I don't see anyone playing less than 10 seasons getting in, so he needs a few more years to get my vote.

 

[redman]

how the hell does he power up to get balls over the fence?

He uses a stool?

 

[pantagrapher]

Anybody who owns a pretty significant record (like most hits in a single season) should be in, imo.

The rules specifically state: "No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted."

I agree with this standard. Don't major record breaking feats get an exhibit in the Hall anyway? That seems sufficient for specific achievements.

 

[guru_007]

I don't see anyone playing less than 10 seasons getting in, so he needs a few more years to get my vote.

So, after he moves to the Red Sox and plays 4 more years, stone cold lock, no?

 

[lions327]

If he has 5 more seasons like his first 5, then he is a mortal lock.

 

[Please See Mine]

I don't see anyone playing less than 10 seasons getting in, so he needs a few more years to get my vote.

Should Sandy Koufax be in? He really only had 5 HOF years.

 

[s_ezy]

how the hell does he power up to get balls over the fence?

He uses a stool?

luck?ichiro chops at the ball and hopes he can run it out

that being said if he keeps playing like he has for another 4-5 years he will be a lock

 

[The Man from Laramie]

Ichiro will be in without any question. When all is said and done, the guy will be a lifetime .325+ hitter with over 2000 hits, maybe 2500.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

if all ya need is a sinlge then Ichi is your man

great singles hitter and great arm

 

[fred_1_15301]

if all ya need is a sinlge then Ichi is your mangreat singles hitter and great arm

Great arm, great range, great speed, some pop, etc.........

 

[Please See Mine]

Ichiro will be in without any question. When all is said and done, the guy will be a lifetime .325+ hitter with over 2000 hits, maybe 2500.

Because . . . ?

 

[The Man from Laramie]

Ichiro will be in without any question. When all is said and done, the guy will be a lifetime .325+ hitter with over 2000 hits, maybe 2500.

Because . . . ?

He has a career .333 at age 33. At that age, Wade Boggs had only had one season where he finished under .325 (Ichiro has had 4), and he wound up with a career BA of .328. Rod Carew, who also finished with a career .328 only broke .325 in two of his last seven seasons (those after he turned 33). Of course, Tony Gwynn had a 5 year stretch starting at age 33 that was pretty much the best 5 year stretch of his career, and more or less better than any season that Ichiro has had.Ichiro's career BA will be damn impressive, but unless he cuts his career short, I doubt he'll wind up over .325. He strikes me as a guy who will keep playing until he can't anymore. I would say he easily has ten years left in him.

 

[guru_007]

Ichiro will be in without any question. When all is said and done, the guy will be a lifetime .325+ hitter with over 2000 hits, maybe 2500.

Because . . . ?

He has a career .333 at age 33. At that age, Wade Boggs had only had one season where he finished under .325 (Ichiro has had 4), and he wound up with a career BA of .328. Rod Carew, who also finished with a career .328 only broke .325 in two of his last seven seasons (those after he turned 33). Of course, Tony Gwynn had a 5 year stretch starting at age 33 that was pretty much the best 5 year stretch of his career, and more or less better than any season that Ichiro has had.Ichiro's career BA will be damn impressive, but unless he cuts his career short, I doubt he'll wind up over .325. He strikes me as a guy who will keep playing until he can't anymore. I would say he easily has ten years left in him.

I agree with most of your post, but I don't think Ichiro will play another 10 years. Most of his offensive prowess is predicated by his speed. He will be 34 this October. I'd say he has another 4-5 years in him. He has not historic milestones to catch, so I don't think he'll just hang on to reach 3000 hits. If you combine his Japanese and American statistics he will have nearly 4,000 hits, and his career average will be north of .340 (he has a .353 career BA in Japan). I think he'll continue to play until he is no longer all-star caliber and then retire....unless the Yankees offer him 4 years, 95 million, which is not out of the realm of possibility.

 

[The Man from Laramie]

Ichiro will be in without any question. When all is said and done, the guy will be a lifetime .325+ hitter with over 2000 hits, maybe 2500.

Because . . . ?

He has a career .333 at age 33. At that age, Wade Boggs had only had one season where he finished under .325 (Ichiro has had 4), and he wound up with a career BA of .328. Rod Carew, who also finished with a career .328 only broke .325 in two of his last seven seasons (those after he turned 33). Of course, Tony Gwynn had a 5 year stretch starting at age 33 that was pretty much the best 5 year stretch of his career, and more or less better than any season that Ichiro has had.Ichiro's career BA will be damn impressive, but unless he cuts his career short, I doubt he'll wind up over .325. He strikes me as a guy who will keep playing until he can't anymore. I would say he easily has ten years left in him.

I agree with most of your post, but I don't think Ichiro will play another 10 years. Most of his offensive prowess is predicated by his speed. He will be 34 this October. I'd say he has another 4-5 years in him. He has not historic milestones to catch, so I don't think he'll just hang on to reach 3000 hits. If you combine his Japanese and American statistics he will have nearly 4,000 hits, and his career average will be north of .340 (he has a .353 career BA in Japan). I think he'll continue to play until he is no longer all-star caliber and then retire....unless the Yankees offer him 4 years, 95 million, which is not out of the realm of possibility.

Speedy players tend to age more gracefully than their slower counterparts.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

I don't see anyone playing less than 10 seasons getting in, so he needs a few more years to get my vote.

So, after he moves to the Red Sox and plays 4 more years, stone cold lock, no?

What makes you think he is going to the Red Sox? Ellsbury appears to be the next in line, I don't think they are going to drop a ton of money on Ichiro. Yankees possibly, Red Sox I don't think so.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

YES.

 

[Wrigley]

I don't see anyone playing less than 10 seasons getting in, so he needs a few more years to get my vote.

So, after he moves to the Red Sox and plays 4 more years, stone cold lock, no?

What makes you think he is going to the Red Sox? Ellsbury appears to be the next in line, I don't think they are going to drop a ton of money on Ichiro. Yankees possibly, Red Sox I don't think so.

Per RotoworldIchiro is about to sign a $100,000,000(or close to) deal with SEA.................he's not going anywhere.

LOOK HERE