IDP Interest? "Trainer" Leagues for people interested in trying IDP? (1 Viewer)

[Gally]

@Joe Bryant


I was in an interesting twitter discussion this morning with the topic of how can we get more people interested in IDP leagues. One of the suggestions was having "trainer" leagues to introduce people to IDP leagues and have "experts" there as tutors for the newbies to help them through the season and impart some wisdom on how they work and how varying strategies/setups etc to IDP.

I was wondering if something like this would be of interest to FBG where it could be marketed through the site and have leagues run through the site where FBG could even put up a small prize package to winners of the various leagues.

Anybody have any thoughts or suggestions on how to pull this off? JB you have any thoughts on whether FBG would think this is even feasible? Let's start a discussion and see what people think? I have also posted in the IDP Forum to get more eyes on it.

-Gally

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Love this idea. IDP is so far and away superior to team D/ST

more ways to win every week, and more compelling for viewing the game. The nuances also elevate marginal players - that WR3 who’s a good KR/PR could be worth using as a flex in a deeper league for the potential of a big return/TD.

Would love to see more folks playing IDP.

 

[Joe Bryant]

@Joe Bryant


I was in an interesting twitter discussion this morning with the topic of how can we get more people interested in IDP leagues. One of the suggestions was having "trainer" leagues to introduce people to IDP leagues and have "experts" there as tutors for the newbies to help them through the season and impart some wisdom on how they work and how varying strategies/setups etc to IDP.

I was wondering if something like this would be of interest to FBG where it could be marketed through the site and have leagues run through the site where FBG could even put up a small prize package to winners of the various leagues.

Anybody have any thoughts or suggestions on how to pull this off? JB you have any thoughts on whether FBG would think this is even feasible? Let's start a discussion and see what people think? I have also posted in the IDP Forum to get more eyes on it.

-Gally

I like the idea of getting more people into IDP for sure.

We have all the tools and info they'd need on our site to excel with this.

You folks keep discussing and see what you think there.

Great idea.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Also can you link to the twitter discussion on it?

 

[wlwiles]

Love this idea. IDP is so far and away superior to team D/ST

more ways to win every week, and more compelling for viewing the game. The nuances also elevate marginal players - that WR3 who’s a good KR/PR could be worth using as a flex in a deeper league for the potential of a big return/TD.

Would love to see more folks playing IDP.

* and have that IDP league scored correctly. Still hunting for a league that starts equal numbers of O and IDP players.

Got super pumped this past offseason when I got invited to a league that I was told was "full IDP". Joined the league, fired up the league settings, and was super disappointed to find out that they start one DL, one LB, one DB, and then one D flex. And everything is worth one point. Sack, tackle, tackle assist, fumble recovery, pass defensed, everything is 1 point unless it's a TD, then it's 3 pts. WTF?!?! It's like having 4 extra kickers on your team. And they still play with team DST also. I made some excuse about not being able to make the draft the day they wanted it and politely exited that league about 3 hours after I joined it.

Would be very interested in getting an IDP league together and giving it a proper go.

 

[Gally]

Also can you link to the twitter discussion on it?

https://twitter.com/JakeKohlhagen/status/1602877310314618887?t=wlx0mQ8Q8osw6sBOGsG-Ag&s=19

 

[Gally]

and have that IDP league scored correctly.

What does that mean to you? I think this is a personal preference to some degree because there are various scoring methods that are fine.

I think the biggest aspect to IDP is that there are equal number of starters to the offense and that the scoring is on par with offense so that the IDP side is just as valuable to the offensive side. How the scoring is set up can take many forms but that is the end criteria for me. IDP scoring value = Offensive scoring value.

Leagues that have one IDP starter or how you described essentially neuters the IDP side. It makes it irrelevant because the waivers will always be chock full of payers you can play.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Love this idea. IDP is so far and away superior to team D/ST

more ways to win every week, and more compelling for viewing the game. The nuances also elevate marginal players - that WR3 who’s a good KR/PR could be worth using as a flex in a deeper league for the potential of a big return/TD.

Would love to see more folks playing IDP.

* and have that IDP league scored correctly. Still hunting for a league that starts equal numbers of O and IDP players.

Got super pumped this past offseason when I got invited to a league that I was told was "full IDP". Joined the league, fired up the league settings, and was super disappointed to find out that they start one DL, one LB, one DB, and then one D flex. And everything is worth one point. Sack, tackle, tackle assist, fumble recovery, pass defensed, everything is 1 point unless it's a TD, then it's 3 pts. WTF?!?! It's like having 4 extra kickers on your team. And they still play with team DST also. I made some excuse about not being able to make the draft the day they wanted it and politely exited that league about 3 hours after I joined it.

Would be very interested in getting an IDP league together and giving it a proper go.

Yeah - scoring settings are also important.

The league I commission is equal O to D. 1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 O-FL, 1 TE, 1 K, 2 LB, 2 DL, 2 DB, 1 D-FLX

The 16 team IDP leagues is an IDP performance scoring league. It's a little out of balance scoring wise, but the roster is start 11 & 11, which works well. Big Play (TFL, SFL) have big scoring bonuses, which I wasn't used to. And they're more specific in that they start 1 QB, 2-5 RB, 2-5 WR, 2 TE (mandatory, + TE-P), K, and they go 1-2 DT, 2-3 DE, 3-5 LB, 2-3 CB, 2-3 S.

I'm just glad they don't split LB into OLB, MLB.

Format does matter a lot. IMO the more players the merrier. In that 16 team league we had a dude score 489 this year. Most decent games are in the 280-330-ish range.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Leagues that have one IDP starter or how you described essentially neuters the IDP side. It makes it irrelevant because the waivers will always be chock full of payers you can play.

This exactly. It has to be robust enough to make for positional scarcity.

 

[Dacomish]

Love this idea. IDP is so far and away superior to team D/ST

more ways to win every week, and more compelling for viewing the game. The nuances also elevate marginal players - that WR3 who’s a good KR/PR could be worth using as a flex in a deeper league for the potential of a big return/TD.

Would love to see more folks playing IDP.

* and have that IDP league scored correctly. Still hunting for a league that starts equal numbers of O and IDP players.

Got super pumped this past offseason when I got invited to a league that I was told was "full IDP". Joined the league, fired up the league settings, and was super disappointed to find out that they start one DL, one LB, one DB, and then one D flex. And everything is worth one point. Sack, tackle, tackle assist, fumble recovery, pass defensed, everything is 1 point unless it's a TD, then it's 3 pts. WTF?!?! It's like having 4 extra kickers on your team. And they still play with team DST also. I made some excuse about not being able to make the draft the day they wanted it and politely exited that league about 3 hours after I joined it.

Would be very interested in getting an IDP league together and giving it a proper go.

Yeah - scoring settings are also important.

The league I commission is equal O to D. 1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 O-FL, 1 TE, 1 K, 2 LB, 2 DL, 2 DB, 1 D-FLX

The 16 team IDP leagues is an IDP performance scoring league. It's a little out of balance scoring wise, but the roster is start 11 & 11, which works well. Big Play (TFL, SFL) have big scoring bonuses, which I wasn't used to. And they're more specific in that they start 1 QB, 2-5 RB, 2-5 WR, 2 TE (mandatory, + TE-P), K, and they go 1-2 DT, 2-3 DE, 3-5 LB, 2-3 CB, 2-3 S.

I'm just glad they don't split LB into OLB, MLB.

Format does matter a lot. IMO the more players the merrier. In that 16 team league we had a dude score 489 this year. Most decent games are in the 280-330-ish range.

Nice league!! Much like the one I commish, just not as many total players:

16 team

7 Off Starters and 7 Def starters:

1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR/TE, 2 Flex (RB/WR/TE) - No K or mandatory TE
.5PPR RB / 1PPR WR/ 1.5PPR for TE

and

2 DL, 2 LB, 2 DB, 1 Flex (any IDP)
.5 pt for an assist, 1 pt for Tackle, 1.5pt for TFL, 4 Pt for Sack, 2 for FF/FR/INT, 1 pt for PD

 

[Crippler]

With supply and demand you must start 11 D guys in any league to make worthwhile. Anything less is watered down.

There is QB, RB, WR, WR, TE, PK, Flex for every NFL team worth playing for 7
there is 11 D guys per team that usually play significant snaps.

My home league starts 11 each. More flex on O but D can be 3-4-4, 4-3-4, 4-2-5, 4-1-6, 3-2-6, 3-3-5

why just think deep with O. Thus anything less than 11 Defensive players not worthy

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

Love this idea. IDP is so far and away superior to team D/ST

more ways to win every week, and more compelling for viewing the game. The nuances also elevate marginal players - that WR3 who’s a good KR/PR could be worth using as a flex in a deeper league for the potential of a big return/TD.

Would love to see more folks playing IDP.

Love the IDP leagues I play in, but respectfully, Team DEF default settings in my leagues are garbage because they are neutered. In one of my leagues, we account for points against and yards against as negative points and turnovers in the positive. Average points for a DEF this season is -15pts with a spread of between -4 and -22. What this does is make you research and evaluate the entire team on Defense as well as Offense and pushes team DEF up the draft board in value.
I guess my point is that team DEF is usually an afterthought because of laziness and referring to most league defaults. With a few setting changes and tweaks, they can be much more interesting.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

With supply and demand you must start 11 D guys in any league to make worthwhile. Anything less is watered down.

Depends a lot on league size.

2/2/2/1 in a 12 teamer 1leaves just a little meat on the bone on the FA list, but not by a ton. I don’t think it’s watered down.

The 11 we start in the 16 team league makes for some sheer “plug & pray” desperation plays.

I think the sweet spot is somewhere in between.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Love this idea. IDP is so far and away superior to team D/ST

more ways to win every week, and more compelling for viewing the game. The nuances also elevate marginal players - that WR3 who’s a good KR/PR could be worth using as a flex in a deeper league for the potential of a big return/TD.

Would love to see more folks playing IDP.

Love the IDP leagues I play in, but respectfully, Team DEF default settings in my leagues are garbage because they are neutered. In one of my leagues, we account for points against and yards against as negative points and turnovers in the positive. Average points for a DEF this season is -15pts with a spread of between -4 and -22. What this does is make you research and evaluate the entire team on Defense as well as Offense and pushes team DEF up the draft board in value.
I guess my point is that team DEF is usually an afterthought because of laziness and referring to most league defaults. With a few setting changes and tweaks, they can be much more interesting.

Due respect, but I still see it as a lesser form of FF.

No matter how nuanced the D/ST settings are, it still pales compared to having individual player scoring. Injuries are a non-factor for team D/ST because it’s next man up. Maybe it hurts the D/ST a little, but it’s transparent to the manager.

Also those WRs who return punts/kicks get absorbed into D/ST. I recall back in my D/ST days having a WR score a KRTD & my opponent getting 6 points for it. Maddening.

There’s just so much more depth to IDP, both as a manager, and for watching the games. Seeing your guy get a rare play on defense is just so incredibly exciting. One of those “holy grail” type plays of a sack/FF/DFR/DTD, or a safety, or a pick 6. The kinds of plays that get you off the couch hooting & hollering. One week this year one of my guys had a strip sack, and the other had the scoop & score. Compared to offensive TDs is just so much more rare & exciting.

It’s just not the same with team D/ST. Sure, you’ll get the points, but it’s better when you’re rooting for individual players doing it.

IDP represents an evolution for FF.

One man’s opinion.

 

[Gally]

Love the IDP leagues I play in, but respectfully, Team DEF default settings in my leagues are garbage because they are neutered. In one of my leagues, we account for points against and yards against as negative points and turnovers in the positive. Average points for a DEF this season is -15pts with a spread of between -4 and -22. What this does is make you research and evaluate the entire team on Defense as well as Offense and pushes team DEF up the draft board in value.
I guess my point is that team DEF is usually an afterthought because of laziness and referring to most league defaults. With a few setting changes and tweaks, they can be much more interesting.

Why not just leave DST Blank in your lineup (rhetorical as I assume there is a rule against that)? But even with those settings I would guess they are all jumbled close by so there isn't a ton of difference between most of the teams.

Have you tried an IDP league?

ETA: Oops, I just realized you started with liking the IDP leagues you plan in. Nevermind to my question.

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

Love the IDP leagues I play in, but respectfully, Team DEF default settings in my leagues are garbage because they are neutered. In one of my leagues, we account for points against and yards against as negative points and turnovers in the positive. Average points for a DEF this season is -15pts with a spread of between -4 and -22. What this does is make you research and evaluate the entire team on Defense as well as Offense and pushes team DEF up the draft board in value.
I guess my point is that team DEF is usually an afterthought because of laziness and referring to most league defaults. With a few setting changes and tweaks, they can be much more interesting.

Why not just leave DST Blank in your lineup (rhetorical as I assume there is a rule against that)? But even with those settings I would guess they are all jumbled close by so there isn't a ton of difference between most of the teams.

Have you tried an IDP league?

ETA: Oops, I just realized you started with liking the IDP leagues you plan in. Nevermind to my question.

Yes, there's a rule. If you don't submit a DEF, you are assigned the points value of the worst DEF that week regardless of where they are (or are not) rostered. Currently there is a 200pt spread between the best DEF (New England) and the worst DEF (Chicago), so it does matter quite a bit in this league.

 

[Gally]

Yes, there's a rule. If you don't submit a DEF, you are assigned the points value of the worst DEF that week regardless of where they are (or are not) rostered. Currently there is a 200pt spread between the best DEF (New England) and the worst DEF (Chicago), so it does matter quite a bit in this league.

What is the spread between the top defense and the 12th defense (assuming a 12 team league)? I really don't care the difference between 1st and 32nd.......just like I wouldn't care about the difference between the 1st QB and the 32nd qb

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

Yes, there's a rule. If you don't submit a DEF, you are assigned the points value of the worst DEF that week regardless of where they are (or are not) rostered. Currently there is a 200pt spread between the best DEF (New England) and the worst DEF (Chicago), so it does matter quite a bit in this league.

What is the spread between the top defense and the 12th defense (assuming a 12 team league)? I really don't care the difference between 1st and 32nd.......just like I wouldn't care about the difference between the 1st QB and the 32nd qb

134pts difference between 1st and 12th.

 

[Gally]

134pts difference between 1st and 12th.

Is it always of this magnitude? I am just wondering if this is an outlier like the TE position this year with Kelce and everyone else.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Yes, there's a rule. If you don't submit a DEF, you are assigned the points value of the worst DEF that week regardless of where they are (or are not) rostered. Currently there is a 200pt spread between the best DEF (New England) and the worst DEF (Chicago), so it does matter quite a bit in this league.

What is the spread between the top defense and the 12th defense (assuming a 12 team league)? I really don't care the difference between 1st and 32nd.......just like I wouldn't care about the difference between the 1st QB and the 32nd qb

134pts difference between 1st and 12th.

Assuming a 14 week season, ~9 points per week.

That is sizable.

Still boring, but sizable.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I’m in 3 leagues now, 2 dynasty. 1 dynasty is IDP. The other has eliminated D/ST & K altogether.

I am a fan of both of these formats. I don’t think I would enjoy a D/ST league format again.

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

134pts difference between 1st and 12th.

Is it always of this magnitude? I am just wondering if this is an outlier like the TE position this year with Kelce and everyone else.

Just a quick look over the past 5 years of this league, there's usually a 120-180pt differential between 1st and 12th. Another quick look at the other skill positions yields ~100pt differential (QB, WR, RB). Kelce is an outlier all by himself over most of those years, so TE is a bit more skewed.

 

[Gally]

So to bring this back, are there any people out there that have never done IDP that would be interested in a "Trainer" type league to get an introduction where you could get a mentor to help with some of the nuance?

I am hoping we can get some FBG support for the mentor's (maybe also help from the IDP forum regulars as well) and maybe some prizes but it would help to know if some non IDP guys would be interested in giving it a go.

(I know this is the SP so many might think this kind of thing is beneath them but figured it was a good place to pose the question)

 

[wlwiles]

and have that IDP league scored correctly.

What does that mean to you? I think this is a personal preference to some degree because there are various scoring methods that are fine.

I think the biggest aspect to IDP is that there are equal number of starters to the offense and that the scoring is on par with offense so that the IDP side is just as valuable to the offensive side. How the scoring is set up can take many forms but that is the end criteria for me. IDP scoring value = Offensive scoring value.

Leagues that have one IDP starter or how you described essentially neuters the IDP side. It makes it irrelevant because the waivers will always be chock full of payers you can play.

"Scored correctly" may have been the wrong terminology because as you said there's various "right" ways of doing it. What I'd hope is almost exactly what you described - to have IDP players on par with offensive players, both in # of starters and in scoring, but just in overall roster value.

I do have one IDP league that is 6 years old now, it's still not perfect scoring wise but we've tweaked it a couple times and still trying to find the right balance. We've done a decent job so far of leveling scoring between the different IDP positions, but on average for us a top 12 LB/DB/etc. still scores equivalent to an offensive flex player. Unless they are ~top 3 at their position, they get dropped if injured or on bye. If the LB12 scored on par with, say McLaurin or ETN, then bench management would play a strategic role. Right now there is one team out of 12 in the league that is rostering one IDP player on their bench, and I can go on waivers right this minute and pick up the DB4, the DL6, and the LB8 on the year...

 

[Gally]

Right now there is one team out of 12 in the league that is rostering one IDP player on their bench, and I can go on waivers right this minute and pick up the DB4, the DL6, and the LB8 on the year...

This is a big issue for making IDP valuable for the league.

Our IDP league was started in 2005 and we have had many iterations over the years to the scoring to make IDP meaningful. It is a 12 team league and we start 8 offense and 8 IDP (kicker is considered offense and punter for defense). Our goal was to make every position equivalent across tiers. Meaning a tier 1 QB = a tier 1 LB = a tier 1 WR = etc. It is really tough to do as trends in scoring make it very difficult. However we have done a good job of having a nice distribution of positions over the top 10/50/100 players.

To accomplish this we have instituted a big play scoring approach for defense (1 pt for a tackle and 8 pts for a sack, 7 pts for an INT as an example). We started with just having the sack be worth the 8 pts and did not give points for QB hits or TFL. What we found was that although the season long distribution was good the IDP side was too boom bust from week to week. We wanted to smooth that out a little bit so we ended up breaking the sack points into a QBH (3 pts), TFL (2 pts) and sack (3 pts). A sack usually consists of all three of those components so the total is still 8 pts but it does allow for a player to not get a sack and still get pts for a QBH so their weekly totals don't need to be so boom/bust. It has worked really well.

All this to say that IDP scoring works best if you can incorporate more stats like QBH, QB hurries, TFL, Pass defensed, assists, etc. The more items included for points increases the IDP value in relation to the offensive side. This type of scoring also really gives value to Edge guys to give more options for building a team. We also have different pts by position to increase the value for lesser positions like DT and CB. DT get 2 pts for a tackle, 1 pt for an assist, and 5 pts for a sack (same for QBH, and TFL). This helps make more DT relevant and the stud guys like Q. WIlliams, Payne, etc are top 5 DL with this scoring. For DB's we award 1 pt for a tackle and 1 pt for an assist. Everyone else needs to 2 assists for 1 pt. This helped bring up the DB's to match other positions.

Bottom line is you need to allow for IDP's to score well to make them valuable or you won't get the value for those positions to make them worthwhile.