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IF David Ortiz gets accussed of Steroid use (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Righetti
- Start date
Winston Wolfe
The Cleaner
No.
Eviloutsider
Footballguy
I dont like the guy anyway, he doesnt even field.
Wait for it......
Wait for it......
bostonfred
Footballguy
I really hope he doesn't. Or if he does, I hope it's after a ton of other dudes have gotten busted for roids and I've gotten over it. It'd definitely take some of the shine of the apple for me.
ThisGuy
Ignored by Nipsey
That was real messy when he was accused and found guilty of using steroids. Way to stick with him.I still love Alex Rodriguez.
Alias
Footballguy
wadegarrett
FFA Legend™
It's pretty obvious the guy is juicing.
Giant Wooden Badger
the Beav
Huh?
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
[icon]
Insoxicated
I agree
Giant Wooden Badger
the Beav
Are you serious?
[icon]
Insoxicated
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Honestly, I have a feeling that a lot more MLB players are taking something illegal. They are just smart enough to take what will not show up in random testings. Given that, if I had to put money down on it, I would say Ortiz is probably on something. I mean, look at his numbers before he came to Boston and then his numbers since. They got significantly better all of a sudden. Some of that can, of course, be attributed to him hitting his prime in his late 20's (which is when many players do), but how much is anyone's guess.
[icon]
Insoxicated
SIGNIFICANTLY Better eh? 2000 - 41.5 AB/HR2001 - 16.8 AB/HR2002 - 20.6 AB/HR2003 - 14.4 AB/HR2004 - 14.0 AB/HR2005 - 12.78 AB/HR2006 - 10.75 AB/HRHe moved to boston in 2003.. there was certainly a bump in totals but considering he had averaged a HR every 18AB the previous two years, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Also, Ortiz is on record for saying that MINN was trying to make him into something he wasn't.... they were constantly "trying to make him swing like a girl". They didn't like him swinging for the fences. Fenway, he's obviously encouraged to swing from the heels at all times.
Factor that in, with a player hitting his power prime (27-30) as well as switching to a much more hitter-friendly ballpark. Tthe bullpen-shortened right field fence, dubbed "williamsburg", was created at fenway for ted williams but Ortiz takes advantage of it more than any hitter in recent memory.Ortiz could well be juicing... who knows..... but to say it's obvious because his numbers went from nothing to amazing immediately upon moving to boston is pretty ignorant.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Hmmm, I am pretty sure I didn't say it was obvious. I suggest you read my post again, [icon].
Your numbers prove that Ortiz's numbers have increased a lot since coming to Boston. Also, your 2000 average is inaccurate.
Your numbers prove that Ortiz's numbers have increased a lot since coming to Boston. Also, your 2000 average is inaccurate.
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wadegarrett
FFA Legend™
Totally.
Nigel
Footballguy
At which MLB park have the fewest HRs been hit this year?Answer above in bold (prior to last night's game, not sure now).
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Is that true? If so, that is mighty interesting.
Nigel
Footballguy
I just happened to hear that on the radio before last night's game. Haven't looked it up myself but if it was on the radio it must be true.
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[icon]
Insoxicated
Not really... boston's pitching started the season very strong and the team has experienced a bit of a power outage (short of ortiz and manny).... not much of a surprise. Historically the park has been a hitters park... did the dimensions change in the offseason? No. Easily explained by outside cirucmstances over an extremely small sample set (35-40 games).
Workhorse
Footballguy
Yeah, Babe Ruth was a mass of rippling muscle too...
[icon]
Insoxicated
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Maybe so, but they have been pretty medicore since. They are 8th in the AL in ERA this season, so over the course of the season, the Red Sox pitching staff, as a whole, has been very average.
35-40 games? Um, the Red Sox have played 49 home games so far. You should stop trying to skew numbers to make your point look more valid.
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Nigel
Footballguy
Hitters park does not necessarily mean HR park. I don't know the historical numbers, but I don't think Fenway is any more than an average HR venue. If it is above average you have to take into account that the Sox have $ and therefore always have a few prolific power guys on their roster.
The Wall takes away as many HRs as it gives. On the other hand, The Wall also turns a lot of out into hits. There is very little foul ground at Fenway. Center and right fields are cavernous. All of these factors = great hitters park, not great HR park.
[icon]
Insoxicated
1) correct.. but the point is they were strong early...hence the low HR total. Let's try to stay on topic here. 2) Whatever dude... I'm not skewing numbers... I just didn't feel like looking pu a stat that irrelevant. the point is it's a small sample.... look at the historical data.... it's a hitters park.... particularly to right field or to guys who hit lofty flies.
TenTimes
Backhoe Operator
cool, we're saying baseball during 1920 is the same as baseball today for the sake of Big Jelly Donut's innocence
you guys are so inSOX!!!icated it's rediculous
[icon]
Insoxicated
Agreed but again, let's stay on topic here. This is about ortiz. The fact is that Ortiz is a dead pull hitter.... The green monster's impact on HR totals is pretty much irrelevant to him. Williamsburg offers him a cozy drop in place for HRs to land. This is a very small factor, however. The main focus here is the guy hit is prime and was allowed to swing freely.
So bodyfat performed like muscle in the 1920's but nowadays it doesn't unless injected with steroids?cool, we're saying baseball during 1920 is the same as baseball today for the sake of Big Jelly Donut's innocence
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
And they have been bad lately, making their strong start meaningless. Like I said, they are middle of the pack in the AL in ERA, so they are probably average in allowing HR's. That is as on-topic as it can get, chico. Insisting that points people are making are off-topic is your not-so-clever of trying to debunk good arguments against your boy Ortiz. Regarding point number 2, if you can produce numbers that prove that Fenway has been a HR park in the past (being a hitter's park and a HR park are two different things, as has been pointed out already), then I will start to believe you, but for now, I am not going to, just because "you say so".
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Nigel
Footballguy
Fenway, unlike Yankee Stadium, is not an easy place for dead pull lefties to hit HRs.' date='Aug 1 2006, 09:03 AM' post='5250727']
Agreed but again, let's stay on topic here. This is about ortiz. The fact is that Ortiz is a dead pull hitter.... The green monster's impact on HR totals is pretty much irrelevant to him. Williamsburg offers him a cozy drop in place for HRs to land. This is a very small factor, however. The main focus here is the guy hit is prime and was allowed to swing freely.So bodyfat performed like muscle in the 1920's but nowadays it doesn't unless injected with steroids?cool, we're saying baseball during 1920 is the same as baseball today for the sake of Big Jelly Donut's innocence
He's not wrapping them around Pesky Pole. It takes a shot to get it out of center/right center at Fenway, where the majority of his blasts go.
[icon]
Insoxicated
Wow you guys have really clung to the park arguement ignoring everthing else... Worst case Fenway is neutral vs Minny.... Let's remove that for the sake of clariity okay?Let's focus on:Fenway, unlike Yankee Stadium, is not an easy place for dead pull lefties to hit HRs.' date='Aug 1 2006, 09:03 AM' post='5250727']
Agreed but again, let's stay on topic here. This is about ortiz. The fact is that Ortiz is a dead pull hitter.... The green monster's impact on HR totals is pretty much irrelevant to him. Williamsburg offers him a cozy drop in place for HRs to land. This is a very small factor, however. The main focus here is the guy hit is prime and was allowed to swing freely.So bodyfat performed like muscle in the 1920's but nowadays it doesn't unless injected with steroids?cool, we're saying baseball during 1920 is the same as baseball today for the sake of Big Jelly Donut's innocence
• HR/AB ratio didn't increase that much after move
• HR/H ratio moved even less
• Entered Power Prime
• Previously discouraged from swinging for fences... now encouraged
Sure his HR totals went up... but that MIGHT have had something to do with having fewer ABs in Minny... his raitios haven't changed that much and the change isn't anything we haven't seen MANY times before from power hitters who've never been accused of juicing.
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Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
I think it's very possible and I'm not going to try to make an argument that he isn't.
[icon]
Insoxicated
I agreed it's possible, but to throw out accusations without any basis is pretty childish. My arguement isn't that "he's not juicing"... more that "here's how to explain how his numbers could be acheived without juice"
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Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
It sucks that this is the playing field that we're on but right now everyone is suspect.If they could test for HGH, we would be able to clear some guys, but right now we can't.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
His ratios haven't changed that much?
On the Twins, Ortiz hit 58 HR's in 1,477 AB's. That is a HR every 25.47 AB's.
On the Red Sox, Ortiz has hit 156 HR's in 2,029 AB's. That is a HR every 13 AB's.
That means his ratio has almost been cut in half in Boston! That is not changing much?
I agree that entering his prime and encouragement to be more of a power hitter can be big factors, but when you go from hitting a HR every 25 1/2 at-bat's to every 13 at-bat's, that is a pretty significant change, no matter how you look at it.
Figure this. If a hitter has 400 at-bat's in a season, his ratio change is basically going from hitting 16 HR's a year to hitting 31 HR's a year.
On the Twins, Ortiz hit 58 HR's in 1,477 AB's. That is a HR every 25.47 AB's.
On the Red Sox, Ortiz has hit 156 HR's in 2,029 AB's. That is a HR every 13 AB's.
That means his ratio has almost been cut in half in Boston! That is not changing much?
I agree that entering his prime and encouragement to be more of a power hitter can be big factors, but when you go from hitting a HR every 25 1/2 at-bat's to every 13 at-bat's, that is a pretty significant change, no matter how you look at it.
Figure this. If a hitter has 400 at-bat's in a season, his ratio change is basically going from hitting 16 HR's a year to hitting 31 HR's a year.
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[icon]
Insoxicated
Yes.. and you're comparing the extreme ends of the spectrum rather than looking at moving averages... ie...reflecting gradual improvement. He's looking at strong but reasonable imrpovements from year to year if you use 2-3 year moving averages (to minimize impact of outlier good/bad years). This is the most accurate and unbiased means to track a players actual growth over a period of time. Regardless.. I'm not going to debate this with you any further as i've got no desire toHis ratios haven't changed that much? On the Twins, Ortiz hit 58 HR's in 1,477 AB's. That is a HR every 25.47 AB's.On the Red Sox, Ortiz has hit 156 HR's in 2,029 AB's. That is a HR every 13 AB's. That means his ratio has almost been cut in half in Boston! That is not changing much?
today. Until he's been proven guilty of having ANY association with ANYTHING to do with steriods, I'll continue to back the guy as one of hte best sluggers of our era. You can feel free to cast baseless accusations
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Okay then, but will you extend the same courtesy to Mark McGwire? After all, it has never been proven that he used steroids. Or Sammy Sosa?' date='Aug 1 2006, 09:38 AM' post='5251048']
Yes.. and you're comparing the extreme ends of the spectrum rather than looking at moving averages... ie...reflecting gradual improvement. He's looking at strong but reasonable imrpovements from year to year if you use 2-3 year moving averages (to minimize impact of outlier good/bad years). This is the most accurate and unbiased means to track a players actual growth over a period of time. Regardless.. I'm not going to debate this with you any further as i've got no desire toHis ratios haven't changed that much? On the Twins, Ortiz hit 58 HR's in 1,477 AB's. That is a HR every 25.47 AB's.On the Red Sox, Ortiz has hit 156 HR's in 2,029 AB's. That is a HR every 13 AB's. That means his ratio has almost been cut in half in Boston! That is not changing much?
BlueOnion
Footballguy
Link? Who has accused A-Rod of using steroids?That was real messy when he was accused and found guilty of using steroids. Way to stick with him.
red_stapler
Footballguy
NO. The beautiful thing about sports (and/or athletes) is that they bring into light the possibilities of the human body. They push the limits of what can be achieved in the realm of competition, where the best athlete wins, not the guy with the most needle tracks. If/when an athlete is proven to have doped then it puts a shadow of doubt over that sport, the dream is tarnished, and the whole business is stained. Sports are getting more and more ghetto every year with drugs, sex scandals, gambling scandals, thug mentalities, murder accusations and the like. IMHO, it was so much better when football/baseball/hockey was played by warriors who loved the game for the game, not for the money or fame or endorsements, men who ate, drank, slept and lived their sport 24/7/365.
[icon]
Insoxicated
Certainly. Until someone implicates them or they're connected in some way to the scandal I don't think it's really fair to flat out accuse them of juicing. Bonds, Giambi, Sheff.. they are all openly connected to the scandal. McGwire is loosely connected (Canseco's book) but nothing concrete just yet.Okay then, but will you extend the same courtesy to Mark McGwire? After all, it has never been proven that he used steroids. Or Sammy Sosa?' date='Aug 1 2006, 09:38 AM' post='5251048']
Yes.. and you're comparing the extreme ends of the spectrum rather than looking at moving averages... ie...reflecting gradual improvement. He's looking at strong but reasonable imrpovements from year to year if you use 2-3 year moving averages (to minimize impact of outlier good/bad years). This is the most accurate and unbiased means to track a players actual growth over a period of time. Regardless.. I'm not going to debate this with you any further as i've got no desire toHis ratios haven't changed that much? On the Twins, Ortiz hit 58 HR's in 1,477 AB's. That is a HR every 25.47 AB's.On the Red Sox, Ortiz has hit 156 HR's in 2,029 AB's. That is a HR every 13 AB's. That means his ratio has almost been cut in half in Boston! That is not changing much?
Good point... guys like Ruth and Cobb were known to be great role models who would NEVER sell their names out to hawk products.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Something nobody has mentioned in the transition from MIN to Boston:
HE'S HITTING IN FRONT OF FREAKING MANNY RAMIREZ
Anyone think this MIGHT be a factor?
Also - the argument about where the Sox pitching is ERA-wise and whatnot is pretty irrelevant in itself since we're talking about the HR's at Fenway Park - you need to look at some splits. Josh Beckett, for example pitches much better at Fenway than on the road - that's not just Fenway being Fenway.
HE'S HITTING IN FRONT OF FREAKING MANNY RAMIREZ
Anyone think this MIGHT be a factor?
Also - the argument about where the Sox pitching is ERA-wise and whatnot is pretty irrelevant in itself since we're talking about the HR's at Fenway Park - you need to look at some splits. Josh Beckett, for example pitches much better at Fenway than on the road - that's not just Fenway being Fenway.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
For myself, I think the line between artificial and natural is getting quite blurry. Steriods is clearly artificial, but I don't think it is as clear cut as some other designer steroids. HGH is 100% natural and does exist in the human body. Heck, Andre the Giant had HGH. There is the case of lasics surgery that often shows up at this time in the conversation. Do we go as far as monitoring someone's diet as far as can an athlete use non-organic fruits and vegetables opposed to 100% organic fruits and vegetables? What about a cortizone shot? What about using an oxygen mask on the sideline? What about the use of cool-fans on the sidelines? Is having surgery and having an artificial pin inserted into a join natural?And these are questions for today, we cannot even speculate what tomorrow brings.
[icon]
Insoxicated
Exactly... just more fuel for the fire there. Remove Ramirez and he's approaching bond's walk-rate.Though, I WILL say he was not the 'feared hitter" in MINNY that he is in Boston so it's not like pitchers really worked around him TOO much, but it could have been a factor.
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red_stapler
Footballguy
I see what you're saying, however at this point we have the law as a guideline. There is a difference between taking good care of your body and enhancing your performance with substances that are clearly banned. As for "being natural", cocaine is natural but that doen't make it ok. The bottom line is these athletes know what is acceptable and not acceptable, they juice because their natural ability is on the decline or not up to the level they want to be, it's a quick, easy (dangerous) fix and the bottom line is money and fame.
Michael Brown
Footballguy
This is just too much, coming from you.
Anyway, Ortiz is one of the strongest advocates in DR about keeping kids off roids and has helped set up numerous programs to keep it clean. Of course, that doesn't prove anything but I think it's a good sign that he's NOT on anything.I think hitting in front of Manny, coupled with being in a better lineup in general, getting a chance to play everyday, and just getting better, are all valid reasons for a huge spike in production. I know I drafted Ortiz in my fantasy drafts in 2001-2003 hoping for a 35 HR, 110 RBI season each time. The guy always had a ton of talent, but for whatever reason couldn't get it together in Minny.
I don't compare him to McGwire or Sosa because as [icon] said, he hasn't been implicated or associated with anyone in particular. I do think less of Mac and Sammy, and if Ortiz was ever connected to roids then I'd put him in that group as well. I just don't think he is. I don't care that Mac and Sammy and Bonds have never tested positive. Innocent until proven guilty is not a public use term, it's a courtroom term. Those guys don't need to be PROVEN innocent -- we already know they're guilty, and anyone who doesn't realize it is extremely naive.
Ortiz is legit, in my opinion. But can you imagine if he WAS juicing?
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
I just don't see evidence for steroids.He came to Boston at age 27 - right when he should be hitting his peak. He came into a great situation, a great park for him, and batting in front of one of the best right handed hitters in the game. That does plenty to explain the increase of production for him, in my mind.
Alias
Footballguy
Michael Brown
Footballguy
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Righetti. It's just that you are the unofficial king of Yankee-bashing just for the sake of Yankee-bashing around here.
