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If every scoring play is reviewed (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Tornacl
- Start date
lion_crazz
Footballguy
Can't believe that play just stood.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
I'm not positive but my understanding is...
Every scoring play is reviewed- for some I believe they stop the game so the refs can actually go look at it/talk to upstairs(a normal review), but for most they simply quickly glance at it to make sure theres nothing questionable and then quickly tell the refs so they can get on with the extra point. Obviously the former is better for the defensive team hoping the play is overturned. Because scoring plays will be automatically reviewed(if they get through that initial screening and its determined that a full review is needed), the coaches can not challenge. Some coaches would challenge just to "make a point" that they should be giving it the full review(knowing full well that they can't actually challenge). The NFL wanted to stop coaches from doing this, so they made it a 15 yard penalty AND the play can then no longer be reviewed at all. It came up last week in a game as well.
Every scoring play is reviewed- for some I believe they stop the game so the refs can actually go look at it/talk to upstairs(a normal review), but for most they simply quickly glance at it to make sure theres nothing questionable and then quickly tell the refs so they can get on with the extra point. Obviously the former is better for the defensive team hoping the play is overturned. Because scoring plays will be automatically reviewed(if they get through that initial screening and its determined that a full review is needed), the coaches can not challenge. Some coaches would challenge just to "make a point" that they should be giving it the full review(knowing full well that they can't actually challenge). The NFL wanted to stop coaches from doing this, so they made it a 15 yard penalty AND the play can then no longer be reviewed at all. It came up last week in a game as well.
Tornacl
Footballguy
So just to be clear, this is what happened.
1. The officials screwed up and didn't call the player down and he scores as a result.
2. Since it was a score, the play would automatically be reviewed.
3. Schwartz immediately threw the flag to review a play that would already be reviewed.
4. Because Schwartz threw the flag to review the play, which was already going to be reviewed, the play is no longer reviewable.
5. Texans are given a touchdown that clearly shouldnt count AND the Lions are penalized 15 yards.
Un-freaking-believable!
1. The officials screwed up and didn't call the player down and he scores as a result.
2. Since it was a score, the play would automatically be reviewed.
3. Schwartz immediately threw the flag to review a play that would already be reviewed.
4. Because Schwartz threw the flag to review the play, which was already going to be reviewed, the play is no longer reviewable.
5. Texans are given a touchdown that clearly shouldnt count AND the Lions are penalized 15 yards.
Un-freaking-believable!
johnnyboy8102
Footballguy
This is why it stood. You are right.
They knew there was a penalty. It took a while for them to explain that it was now unreviewable.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
oofflooredyas
Footballguy
And all along I thought that the goal of the NFL was to get it right. I was sooooo wrong.
CrazyFox
Footballguy
I understand the reason for putting a rule in place there...
prevent the coach from using the challenge flag as a way to "show up" or "insult" the officials. Basically stopping them from using it out of anger to rub in their face and say "F You" "Bad call".
A rule there makes sense.
The penalty for violating the rule doesn't make sense tho...
turning around and saying, "now we are not going to review it and if we did get it wrong, oh well, to bad for you and the team and the fans"
Why isn't a 15 yard penalty and/or fine enough?
Or even a loss of challenge and a timeout?
NFL really got this one bass ackwards
prevent the coach from using the challenge flag as a way to "show up" or "insult" the officials. Basically stopping them from using it out of anger to rub in their face and say "F You" "Bad call".
A rule there makes sense.
The penalty for violating the rule doesn't make sense tho...
turning around and saying, "now we are not going to review it and if we did get it wrong, oh well, to bad for you and the team and the fans"
Why isn't a 15 yard penalty and/or fine enough?
Or even a loss of challenge and a timeout?
NFL really got this one bass ackwards
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GeorgeCostanza
Footballguy
the NFL rulebook is going to be so muddled soon they'll need lawyers to settle plays
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I'll bet they change it to just a 15 yard penalty from the spot where it was reviewed as down.
LittlePhatty
Footballguy
Penalize them 15 yards, that's fine for not knowing the rules. But the "we can't review the play because you threw the flag" rule is absurd.
packseasontix
Footballguy
Posted this already in another thread, if an infraction can delay the snap of the next play (the lions illegally ask for a review was a penalty) then there can not be a review in their favor.
http://static.nfl.co...Rule%20Book.pdf
Page 89; Section 9; Instant Replay
....team will be permitted two challenges that will initiate Instant Replay reviews, except for plays when the on-field ruling is a score for either team, an interception, a fumble or backward pass that is recovered by an opponent or goes out of bounds through an opponent’s end zone, or a muffed scrimmage kick recovered by the kicking team...
Penalty: For initiating a challenge when a team is prohibited from doing so: Loss of 15 yards.
Replay Official’s Request for Review. After all scoring plays, interceptions, fumbles and backward passes that are recovered by an opponent or go out of bounds through an opponent’s end zone, muffed scrimmage kicks recovered by the kicking team, after the two-minute warning of each half, and throughout any overtime period...
He must initiate a review before the next legal snap or kick and cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul that delays the next snap.
http://static.nfl.co...Rule%20Book.pdf
Page 89; Section 9; Instant Replay
....team will be permitted two challenges that will initiate Instant Replay reviews, except for plays when the on-field ruling is a score for either team, an interception, a fumble or backward pass that is recovered by an opponent or goes out of bounds through an opponent’s end zone, or a muffed scrimmage kick recovered by the kicking team...
Penalty: For initiating a challenge when a team is prohibited from doing so: Loss of 15 yards.
Replay Official’s Request for Review. After all scoring plays, interceptions, fumbles and backward passes that are recovered by an opponent or go out of bounds through an opponent’s end zone, muffed scrimmage kicks recovered by the kicking team, after the two-minute warning of each half, and throughout any overtime period...
He must initiate a review before the next legal snap or kick and cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul that delays the next snap.
packseasontix
Footballguy
NFL rulebook is very very very very straight forward. When the refs start getting calls wrong THEN its getting to muddled, for the most part they just miss things they don't interpret or forget rules completely. It has happened but its very very rare.
i'm not sure i understand the point you are making. how does a challenge delay the next snap if they are going to review it anyway?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
So wait, another way this could work is if a player for a team which can see is about to lose a big TD overruled on review can just walk up and punch another player in fromnt of a ref and draw a personal foul penalty - right?Any infraction would do, correct?
theplayer11
Footballguy
Is this a new rule this year? I remember lots of coaches throwing flags and then being told the play wasn't reviewable..with no penalty.
In this case, just because the play was going to be reviewed, a challenge flag makes it now non reviewable? Rules are supposed to be put in place for
fairness..this is just plain beyond dumb.
In this case, just because the play was going to be reviewed, a challenge flag makes it now non reviewable? Rules are supposed to be put in place for
fairness..this is just plain beyond dumb.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
From what I saw on twitter last night (I think from Schefter), coaches were using throwing challenge flags on plays they knew were not challengeable as an excuse to chat up the officials. The rule made it to where you were penalized for doing that. They just took it too far.
packseasontix
Footballguy
It was not FOR SURE going to be reviewed, the penalty needed to be enforced for 15 yards. The play could have been whistled to be confirmed 1 second after the challenge flag was thrown and the snap could have occurred after that. Thus this penalty delayed a possible snap for the next play and thus you can not review this call.Its a very simple rule to get to the heart of a couple issues.
Delaying the game by the flag thrower
Frustrated with the call throwing (when it should be reviewed by the booth) - unsportsman-like-conduct like when in baseball a batter argues balls/strikes and gets kicked out of the game
Showing up officials - by throwing a red flag to reiterate that no IT SHOULD be reviewed (such as a time when the booth doesn't say it needs to be reviewed)
Also adding this:
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The Ref
Footballguy
Yeah, you know what they say about the path to hell and all that.Awful rule - I'd bet a small amount that gets changed in the offseason.
packseasontix
Footballguy
What I bolded is where it is stating only the team that is penalized is not allowed to get a review in their favor.Thus even if you scored the TD as the Texans and then did penalty that delayed the snap they could look at it, they can't look at it when the Lions draw the flag though.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
There is a difference between "not reviewable" and "not challengeable". The rule should only apply to the former.It's too bad the NFL doesn't understand that.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
After the score lions were still winning by 3. If they didn't let them score again they would have won the game.
The coach blew it and it cost them 7 points. Bottom line is the players lost the game, and the head coach cost them 7 with his lack of knowlege.
The coach blew it and it cost them 7 points. Bottom line is the players lost the game, and the head coach cost them 7 with his lack of knowlege.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Simple way to fix it. If you are a coach don't throw the flag. FIXED. Its not the fault of the rules, simply the fault of the coach.
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32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Agree. And this gets to the heart of why the Lions are under performing this year: The team's play is a reflection of Schwartz, who is very emotional. This results in too much undisciplined play. Good nite Lions.
packseasontix
Footballguy
Not sure of the point your trying to make? It was not a challengeable play so this rule would apply here. The Lions were not allowed to challenge the play period, they tried and the flag then caused the booth not to be able to review the play.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Anybody with half a brain wouldn't throw the flag. Easy fix.
Because the rule was designed to address a very specific infraction- throwing the flag to slow down the game or show up the officials. In a play that is already going to be reviewed, the game isnt going to be slowed down, so the point is moot. So it comes down to showing up the officials... which I have to agree Swartz really WAS trying to do- yes, thats a problem, but potentially giving a team a free touchdown is a death sentence. There isnt any comparable rule, even say, viciously stomping on another player, where the result is free points on the board that would otherwise not be there.Look at it this way- did anyone walk away from that game saying, 'Well, the game wasn't great, but the referees walked out with their dignity intact, so all in all it was a good day.' I don't think so. You want to flag em for 15 yards, heck, you want to toss the coach out of the game for an illegal challenge? Fine, but dont screw with the results on the field to the point of awarding a free touchdown.
If you come up with a system to require head coaches in the NFL to have half a brain, call the league. At any moment im sure we can rattle off half a dozen examples of coaches who fail that test. So are we really willing to see this kind of stupidity where important games hinge on something A COACH does, on the SIDELINE, BETWEEN PLAYS? There are lots of penalties and fines in the NFL, there are ways to deter coaches from doing stupid things. Allowing a botched call to stand and put points on the board thereby potentially handing a game away is not a good idea, period. You could apply this logic to anything- hey, coach stepped too far onto the field- 20 points to the opposing team. Why not? Stupid coach shouldnt be on the field. Just maybe there are more important dynamics in football than how the coaches and refs interact.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
The point I am making is that the rule should only apply to plays that are "not reviewable".It's stupid to penalize a team for requesting a review on a play that is already being reviewed. It's even stupider to penalize them TWICE. And the coup de grace of stupidity is that the NFL would actually allow a bad ruling to affect the outcome of the game in the name of "following bureaucratic procedures."
Forget about whether Jim Schwartz knew the rules or not. That's not the point! The point is that THE RULE IS DUMB. THE RULE VIOLATES THE SPIRIT OF THE NFL!!!
This rule says that the NFL cares more about bureaucracy than accuracy.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Anyone with a brain would realize if you don't throw the flag you fix the problem. DUH.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Yes, but anyone with half a brain thinks it's an awesome rule as it stands.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
Here's another thing that's dumb about the rule: Gary Kubiak could have done the exact same thing that Schwartz did, and the officials wouldn't have stopped the review.
Think about that for a moment. Kubiak would have received a different penalty for performing the exact same infraction on the exact same play. Does that sound like a rule that promotes fairness and accuracy?
Think about that for a moment. Kubiak would have received a different penalty for performing the exact same infraction on the exact same play. Does that sound like a rule that promotes fairness and accuracy?
attaché case
Footballguy
Quick breakdown of how it works:
Coach sees scoring play and throws the challenge flag because he thinks it should be reviewed.
NFL: Ummmm...yeahhh...we review EVERY scoring play, so we were gonna review that one, but since you threw the challenge flag, now we're not gonna. Also, we're gonna slap a 15 yard unsportsman-like conduct penalty on you because that makes just as much sense.
Everyone in the world:
Coach sees scoring play and throws the challenge flag because he thinks it should be reviewed.
NFL: Ummmm...yeahhh...we review EVERY scoring play, so we were gonna review that one, but since you threw the challenge flag, now we're not gonna. Also, we're gonna slap a 15 yard unsportsman-like conduct penalty on you because that makes just as much sense.
Everyone in the world:
GregR
Footballguy
There isn't just one rule, it's two rules. And they apply to a wide number of circumstances in which they make sense. This is just a rare circumstance where it doesn't make sense to apply it so they need a provision to exclude.There are two rules. One rule is "if you commit a penalty that delays a play, you cannot have a review in your favor." That is a perfectly good and needed rule. It means if Tom Brady throws an overtime 60 yard pass that hit the turf but is ruled a catch, and the Pats rush up to run the next play before the booth can see it, that you can't kick the ball from where it's spotted, drawing a 5 yard penalty but buying time for the booth. It means you can't jump off sides and touch an offensive player, accepting a 5 yard penalty to buy time for the booth. If you do, you don't get the review.The other rule involved is throwing the red flag when you can't challenge is a 15 yard penalty. If you're not going to allow the red flag at some points it's also a good rule. It stops coaches from using the red flag to circumvent calling a timeout. The problem is that in moments of the game when the ref has stopped play and it won't resume until he hears from the booth, that it shouldn't be considered as "delaying the next play".So the two rules involved are good rules and needed. They just should have an exclusion for the particular situation the Lions were in. You are being very unfair characterizing the rules as asinine. This is an outlier situation that they didn't anticipate.
coolnerd
Footballguy
Actually, all the fans were confused. The person who threw the red flag knew the rules and admitted that he lost his head, although one of the primary jobs of a head football coach is to be aware of situations and not lose sight of the big picture.Quick breakdown of how it works:
Coach sees scoring play and throws the challenge flag because he thinks it should be reviewed.
NFL: Ummmm...yeahhh...we review EVERY scoring play, so we were gonna review that one, but since you threw the challenge flag, now we're not gonna. Also, we're gonna slap a 15 yard unsportsman-like conduct penalty on you because that makes just as much sense.
Everyone in the world:
attaché case
Footballguy
I'm not buying that Schwartz knew the rule. I think once it was explained to him he saved face by saying he knew it but lost his cool. No way he was gonna admit he didnt know it. If he knew the rule, he would have known it would cost a TD. You think he will ever 'lose his cool' and do it again? Not a chance, because now he knows the rule. Just my $.02.'coolnerd said:Actually, all the fans were confused. The person who threw the red flag knew the rules and admitted that he lost his head, although one of the primary jobs of a head football coach is to be aware of situations and not lose sight of the big picture.'attaché case said:Quick breakdown of how it works:
Coach sees scoring play and throws the challenge flag because he thinks it should be reviewed.
NFL: Ummmm...yeahhh...we review EVERY scoring play, so we were gonna review that one, but since you threw the challenge flag, now we're not gonna. Also, we're gonna slap a 15 yard unsportsman-like conduct penalty on you because that makes just as much sense.
Everyone in the world:
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As others have mentioned, the proper rule should be to just mark off 15 yards from the spot where Forsett went down. Hell, to take it a step further, the proper rule should be to tell Schwartz to put the flag back in his pocket because all scoring plays are reviewed. i mean don't they tell coaches to put their flags back in their pocket (without penalty) for plays that are NOT reviewable?
Pure stupidity in the NFL.
Pure stupidity in the NFL.
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Also, what if the red flag "accidentally" fell out of his back pocket? Penalize him 15 yards? Stupid rule, but if you're going to penalize him, do it after reviewing the play and tack on the penalty from there.
Anyway, with the way the refs reviewed plays yesterday I wouldn't be so sure they would have marked him down even after reviewing the play. Inconclusive is what they would have probably ruled, play stands.
Anyway, with the way the refs reviewed plays yesterday I wouldn't be so sure they would have marked him down even after reviewing the play. Inconclusive is what they would have probably ruled, play stands.
coolnerd
Footballguy
I don't think Schwartz comes out looking good either way, so I am going to take his words at face value. And schwartz has a history of losing perspective (remember Harbaugh for one), so he is more than capable of letting his emotions get the best of what is largely considered a pretty sharp mind otherwise.I'm not buying that Schwartz knew the rule. I think once it was explained to him he saved face by saying he knew it but lost his cool. No way he was gonna admit he didnt know it. If he knew the rule, he would have known it would cost a TD. You think he will ever 'lose his cool' and do it again? Not a chance, because now he knows the rule. Just my $.02.'coolnerd said:Actually, all the fans were confused. The person who threw the red flag knew the rules and admitted that he lost his head, although one of the primary jobs of a head football coach is to be aware of situations and not lose sight of the big picture.'attaché case said:Quick breakdown of how it works:
Coach sees scoring play and throws the challenge flag because he thinks it should be reviewed.
NFL: Ummmm...yeahhh...we review EVERY scoring play, so we were gonna review that one, but since you threw the challenge flag, now we're not gonna. Also, we're gonna slap a 15 yard unsportsman-like conduct penalty on you because that makes just as much sense.
Everyone in the world:
Short Corner
Footballguy
Of course he knew the rule. He screamed across the field, belittling Harbaugh last year when he did the exact same thing. Makes him look even more like an idiot.I'm not buying that Schwartz knew the rule. I think once it was explained to him he saved face by saying he knew it but lost his cool. No way he was gonna admit he didnt know it. If he knew the rule, he would have known it would cost a TD. You think he will ever 'lose his cool' and do it again? Not a chance, because now he knows the rule. Just my $.02.'coolnerd said:Actually, all the fans were confused. The person who threw the red flag knew the rules and admitted that he lost his head, although one of the primary jobs of a head football coach is to be aware of situations and not lose sight of the big picture.'attaché case said:Quick breakdown of how it works:
Coach sees scoring play and throws the challenge flag because he thinks it should be reviewed.
NFL: Ummmm...yeahhh...we review EVERY scoring play, so we were gonna review that one, but since you threw the challenge flag, now we're not gonna. Also, we're gonna slap a 15 yard unsportsman-like conduct penalty on you because that makes just as much sense.
Everyone in the world:
