If the Patriots win the Super Bowl, is Brady the greatest QB of all ti (1 Viewer)

[gianmarco]

Quite a few consider Montana the GOAT mostly due to his postseason performances. Here's a few comparisons of overall and postseason #'s:

Joe Montana:

--13 seasons as starter (15 total)

--117-47 as a starter (71%)

--3 All-Pros, 8 Pro Bowls

--12th in career passing yards (40,551)

--9th in career passer rating (92.3)

--8th in career game winning drives (33)

--23 playoff games with 16 wins and 7 losses (.696 winning % and 2nd most playoff wins of all time)

--4 Super Bowl wins (tied for most by any QB)

Tom Brady

--10 seasons as starter (12 total)

--124-35 as a starter (78% -- highest winning % of all time)

--2 All-Pros, 7 Pro Bowls

--14th in career passing yards (39,979)

--4th in career passer rating (96.4)

--6th in career game winning drives (34)

--22 playoff games with 17 wins and 5 losses (.772 winning % and most playoff wins of all time)

--4 Super Bowl wins (tied for most by any QB)

Other notes:

--Brady never won a Super Bowl with a WR the caliber of Jerry Rice

--He will have won it this year with a historically bad defense

--2nd highest single season passing yards (5235 yards)

--Most TDs thrown in a single season (50)

--He's not done yet as he's still only 34

So.....is he?

ETA--If you vote no, then go ahead and list who your #1 QB is and why you think so.

 

[Steed]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

 

[gianmarco]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

 

[Popinski]

Other notes:

--Brady never won a Super Bowl with a WR the caliber of Jerry Rice

--He will have won it this year with a historically bad defense

--2nd highest single season passing yards (5235 yards)

--Most TDs thrown in a single season (50)

--He's not done yet as he's still only 34

So which way are you leaning?

 

[Don Quixote]

Is the question if Brady is the GOAT, or greater than Joe Montana? I don't think those are the same questions.

 

[Anarchy99]

Brady also now has made 5 SB appearances and 6 AFCC appearances in his 10 healthy seasons.

I chuckled at the Jerry Rice part. What other QB has had a WR like Jerry Rice? IIRC, Montana won 2 SBs without Rice.

 

[Steed]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

When you go to four of them, yes.Oh, and Montana was never an accomplice to a spygate.

 

[gianmarco]

Is the question if Brady is the GOAT, or greater than Joe Montana? I don't think those are the same questions.

The question is if he's the GOAT. On most lists I've seen, Montana is often at the top of his list due to a combination of his career stats and incredible playoff stats. I used those as a comparison. If you feel there's another QB that's better, by all means, say who and why you think so.

 

[AmosMoses]

Bad poll.

 

[gianmarco]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

When you go to four of them, yes.Oh, and Montana was never an accomplice to a spygate.

What if Brady were to win yet another? Is 4-0 > 5-1?

 

[ivnabru]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

When you go to four of them, yes.

Oh, and Montana was never an accomplice to a spygate.

So in your estimation losing in the Conference Championship is a more successful season than losing in the Superbowl? Or is missing the playoffs better than losing in the Superbowl. I'm really trying to understand how finishing below 2nd is better than finishing 2nd?Why is Brady's 2010 season better for his overall resume than his 2007?

 

[gianmarco]

Btw, I'm not a Brady fan in any sense. But, the numbers here don't lie. They are exceptional in both the regular season as well as the postseason.

I'd be curious to see reasons why he isn't.

 

[Zeff]

Brady's already the GOAT. Anything he does from here on out is just icing.

If Eli wins, he becomes the GOAT Manning.

 

[Snickers]

I would say yes, for those that say no who is your GOAT?

 

[gianmarco]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

When you go to four of them, yes.Oh, and Montana was never an accomplice to a spygate.

Montana had 4 playoffs where he went 1 and done (0-1)Montana had 2 playoffs where he went 1-1Montana had 1 playoff where he went 2-1 (lost in conference championship)Brady only has 2 playoffs where he went 1 and done (0-1)Brady has only 1 playoff where he went 1-1Brady has 2 playoffs where he went 2-1 (conference championship and Super Bowl)So it's not as if Montana never lost in the playoffs. In fact, I'd say he choked far more than Brady overall. You can thank Tyree for it even being close!

 

[ivnabru]

Brady's already the GOAT. Anything he does from here on out is just icing.

If Eli wins, he becomes the GOAT Manning.

My eyes tell me differently, although this might be the GOAT single season from a Manning.He does have a chance to pass Peyton at some point though which I would have never believed a few years ago.

Interesting that if Eli wins we possibly already have Peyton, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger and Eli as HOF'er QBs in the NFL right now. With Rodgers also having a better than average chance depending on how his career plays out. I think we might see a QB or two we don't expect get snubbed or wait a long time because there are only so many spots. Especially where Favre will be inducted too.

 

[Zeff]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

When you go to four of them, yes.Oh, and Montana was never an accomplice to a spygate.

Montana had 4 playoffs where he went 1 and done (0-1)Montana had 2 playoffs where he went 1-1Montana had 1 playoff where he went 2-1 (lost in conference championship)Brady only has 2 playoffs where he went 1 and done (0-1)Brady has only 1 playoff where he went 1-1Brady has 2 playoffs where he went 2-1 (conference championship and Super Bowl)So it's not as if Montana never lost in the playoffs. In fact, I'd say he choked far more than Brady overall. You can thank Tyree for it even being close!

This.Bumpkins overrate Joe Cool on the mistaken belief that there's only one game per year. If Montana were a better QB, he'd have some SB losses.

 

[ivnabru]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

When you go to four of them, yes.Oh, and Montana was never an accomplice to a spygate.

Montana had 4 playoffs where he went 1 and done (0-1)Montana had 2 playoffs where he went 1-1Montana had 1 playoff where he went 2-1 (lost in conference championship)Brady only has 2 playoffs where he went 1 and done (0-1)Brady has only 1 playoff where he went 1-1Brady has 2 playoffs where he went 2-1 (conference championship and Super Bowl)So it's not as if Montana never lost in the playoffs. In fact, I'd say he choked far more than Brady overall. You can thank Tyree for it even being close!

Can you imagine if Montana had taken 1 of those 0-1 playoff teams and won a few games but lost in the Super Bowl? His legacy would be tarnished possibly destroyed.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

When you go to four of them, yes.Oh, and Montana was never an accomplice to a spygate.

What if Brady were to win yet another? Is 4-0 > 5-1?

maybe you should let Brady win this one first. but if you want to crown him, then crown him

 

[rick6668]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

When you go to four of them, yes.Oh, and Montana was never an accomplice to a spygate.

What if Brady were to win yet another? Is 4-0 > 5-1?

What if Eli were to win yet another? Is 3-0 > 3-2?

 

[Zeff]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

When you go to four of them, yes.Oh, and Montana was never an accomplice to a spygate.

What if Brady were to win yet another? Is 4-0 > 5-1?

What if Eli were to win yet another? Is 3-0 > 3-2?

Didn't we already cover this in discussing Montana's deficiencies?

 

[dparker713]

He wont even be the greatest active QB

 

[MikeApf]

This is good water cooler talk, but in the end, as football is a team sport, it's impossible to state whether Brady is the best of all time or not. If Brady had spent his years on the Redskins or Browns, he may not have all the success and hardware that he has now, and yet, he would still be the same man. The reality is that a QBs performance is tied to the performance of the ownership, front office, coaching staff and other players. This makes true individual comparisons problematic.

With that said, I do think we've seen enough to suggest that he's "one of the best ever." But is he the very best? You really can't say that.

 

[David Yudkin]

He wont even be the greatest active QB

I'd be interested to hear which active QB will play in 5 Super Bowls. Enlighten us.

 

[Tau837]

The OP does not list all honors/awards for both Brady and Montana; they are very close, but they favor Montana as of today.

The OP does not compare playoff performance other than wins and losses. Playoff numbers (yards, TDs, rating, etc.) favor Montana, and it's not that close.

I posted that stuff in another thread recently.

As of today, I still view Unitas and Montana as the best QBs of all time. But Brady is very close.

 

[bostonfred]

Its gotten to the point where there aren't many qbs left who you can make an argument for. For example, you can make an argument that marino was better than montana. Its been done plenty of times over the years. But brady broke marinos records, and has the postseason success. Most of the arguments for someone other than brady will have to do with career totals or specific achievements that only fit one or two other players in the league. That's usually a clear indicator, imo.

 

[dparker713]

He wont even be the greatest active QB

I'd be interested to hear which active QB will play in 5 Super Bowls. Enlighten us.

Superbowls are a team accomplishment. They are not an individual achievement and are merely a factor when determining greatness of a QB.

 

[dparker713]

Its gotten to the point where there aren't many qbs left who you can make an argument for. For example, you can make an argument that marino was better than montana. Its been done plenty of times over the years. But brady broke marinos records, and has the postseason success. Most of the arguments for someone other than brady will have to do with career totals or specific achievements that only fit one or two other players in the league. That's usually a clear indicator, imo.

Marino's records are much more impressive than Brady's. The rules are much friendlier to QBs and WRs now then they were during Marino's time.

 

[gianmarco]

He wont even be the greatest active QB

I'd be interested to hear which active QB will play in 5 Super Bowls. Enlighten us.

Superbowls are a team accomplishment. They are not an individual achievement and are merely a factor when determining greatness of a QB.

Yes, but when you make it to 5 Super Bowls and a couple of those are separated by 10 years and your QB is the one mainstay and connecting factor, then you can start to attribute a little bit more to him and not so much just the "team". Especially this year when the defense was incredibly bad.

 

[identikit]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

When you go to four of them, yes.Oh, and Montana was never an accomplice to a spygate.

Montana had 4 playoffs where he went 1 and done (0-1)

Montana had 2 playoffs where he went 1-1

Montana had 1 playoff where he went 2-1 (lost in conference championship)

Brady only has 2 playoffs where he went 1 and done (0-1)

Brady has only 1 playoff where he went 1-1

Brady has 2 playoffs where he went 2-1 (conference championship and Super Bowl)

So it's not as if Montana never lost in the playoffs. In fact, I'd say he choked far more than Brady overall. You can thank Tyree for it even being close!

You understand that teams win/lose in the playoffs without a QB 'choking'?

 

[todisco1]

He wont even be the greatest active QB

I'd be interested to hear which active QB will play in 5 Super Bowls. Enlighten us.

Superbowls are a team accomplishment. They are not an individual achievement and are merely a factor when determining greatness of a QB.

Yeah, I'm a bit surprised by that comment. Being in the most Super Bowls automatically makes you the greatest? Seems strange. I think it's one of a number of elements going into the discussion. That said, Brady is already in the discussion for GOAT IMO, and if he wins this one it only helps his cause. But I don't ever think there will be a consensus GOAT QB like there is (for the most part) with Jerry Rice as a WR.

 

[gianmarco]

Its gotten to the point where there aren't many qbs left who you can make an argument for. For example, you can make an argument that marino was better than montana. Its been done plenty of times over the years. But brady broke marinos records, and has the postseason success. Most of the arguments for someone other than brady will have to do with career totals or specific achievements that only fit one or two other players in the league. That's usually a clear indicator, imo.

Marino's records are much more impressive than Brady's. The rules are much friendlier to QBs and WRs now then they were during Marino's time.

We've gone over this. The rules aren't significantly different from Marino's time. The major rule change happened right before Marino came in and is a big reason he was able to do what he did.

 

[gianmarco]

Montana never lost a Superbowl.

Neither did Jim Plunkett.Is that the deciding factor for GOAT?

When you go to four of them, yes.Oh, and Montana was never an accomplice to a spygate.

Montana had 4 playoffs where he went 1 and done (0-1)

Montana had 2 playoffs where he went 1-1

Montana had 1 playoff where he went 2-1 (lost in conference championship)

Brady only has 2 playoffs where he went 1 and done (0-1)

Brady has only 1 playoff where he went 1-1

Brady has 2 playoffs where he went 2-1 (conference championship and Super Bowl)

So it's not as if Montana never lost in the playoffs. In fact, I'd say he choked far more than Brady overall. You can thank Tyree for it even being close!

You understand that teams win/lose in the playoffs without a QB 'choking'?

Absolutely. I almost put that in quotes since I was trying to make the point that Brady's 1 Super Bowl loss doesn't mean he choked and is a worse QB as a result.

 

[Devine Intervention]

This is good water cooler talk, but in the end, as football is a team sport, it's impossible to state whether Brady is the best of all time or not. If Brady had spent his years on the Redskins or Browns, he may not have all the success and hardware that he has now, and yet, he would still be the same man. The reality is that a QBs performance is tied to the performance of the ownership, front office, coaching staff and other players. This makes true individual comparisons problematic.With that said, I do think we've seen enough to suggest that he's "one of the best ever." But is he the very best? You really can't say that.

Tom Brady was along for the ride in his early superbowl success. It was like that for Big Ben. They had a system, and they didnt ask much of Brady. They asked him to manage the game, and to finish. He wasnt winning them games. And to his late game antics I would give a big chunk of that success to the Kickers. Flacco led his team down the field and in a position to win the game, but didnt have the right surrounding cast. Brady as a clock manager ---> 3 ringsBrady as the one they depend on ----> 0 ringsEven in this AFC Championship game, Brady played TERRIBLE to his standards, lost the turnover battle but his TEAM won, and here we are crowning him. Another example, out of the top teams in the NFC, the 2 playing in the championship game were the 2 with the lesser of QB in terms of " greatness ". By most standards Brees/Rodgers >>> Eli/Smith. When your team can lose their starter, their HOF QB, and have to put in a kid who hasnt started since HIGHSCHOOL, and he puts up comparable stats and record, that says something. On the other hand if you go consecutive years winning your division, consecutive years with at least 10 wins, then you lose your HOF QB, and your team goes and only wins 2 games with that same team, I think that says something too. Just sayin...

 

[Eric]

Love him or hate him, I think it's pretty clear that Brady is the best QB we've ever seen. His regular season and post season accomplishments eclipse anyone else in the running. It's not even really an argument.

 

[gianmarco]

Tom Brady was along for the ride in his early superbowl success. It was like that for Big Ben. They had a system, and they didnt ask much of Brady.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Tom Brady was the 2001 Super Bowl MVPTom Brady was the 2003 Super Bowl MVPYou don't win those awards if you're "along for the ride". Big Ben hasn't won that award even once.

 

[Devine Intervention]

Tom Brady was along for the ride in his early superbowl success. It was like that for Big Ben. They had a system, and they didnt ask much of Brady.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Tom Brady was the 2001 Super Bowl MVPTom Brady was the 2003 Super Bowl MVPYou don't win those awards if you're "along for the ride". Big Ben hasn't won that award even once.

2001 he was 16/27 for 145 and a touchdown. Thats a game manager. The MVP should have went to the coach but thats not possible

 

[Carver]

Pats fans "YES"

Non Pats fans "NO"

That's just they way it will be until 10-15years after he retires. With the exception of maybe Michael Jordan, you will never get agreement on the GOAT while he is still playing. People have too much trouble taking their personal hatred of a player out of the equation.

 

[identikit]

Tom Brady was along for the ride in his early superbowl success. It was like that for Big Ben. They had a system, and they didnt ask much of Brady.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Tom Brady was the 2001 Super Bowl MVPTom Brady was the 2003 Super Bowl MVPYou don't win those awards if you're "along for the ride". Big Ben hasn't won that award even once.

2001 he was 16/27 for 145 and a touchdown. Thats a game manager. The MVP should have went to the coach but thats not possible

Or to the videographer.

 

[eakfootball]

Elway

 

[Devine Intervention]

Since he has been an ELITE QB statistically speaking, so 2007 and on, here's his playoff numbers....

65% 238/ypg 1.6/TDs pg 1.5/INTs pg

The more of that offense that they put into his hands and said go out there and win it for us, the worse his stats got.

And to be fair, even in Mannings superbowl run, his defense carried him through the playoffs. Just goes to show that great QB or not, its all about the right kind of scheme and team balance. Is it impossible to win a SB with a lopsided team, no it happens, but unlikey.

This year the same, NE's offense deserved to lose that game but NE's defense stepped up.

 

[Warrior]

Great QB, though he's no Peyton Manning..

Top 3 or 4 still isn't bad, but a lot of his success is owed to BB.

 

[gianmarco]

Great QB, though he's no Peyton Manning..

Top 3 or 4 still isn't bad, but a lot of his success is owed to BB.

While I won't disagree with that, one could argue that a lot of BB's success is owed to Brady. It's just been one of those perfect marriages (see Brees and Payton).

 

[ivnabru]

Great QB, though he's no Peyton Manning..

Top 3 or 4 still isn't bad, but a lot of his success is owed to BB.

I see the Brady/Manning comparisons similar to Montana/Marino. Most people would agree Montana is the better in a discussion today. But imagine if Marino had compiled those stats and won a superbowl like Peyton has. Makes the comparison a lot closer. I think if Peyton doesn't come back Brady will win out in the long-run because he'll probably have the stats after another couple years. But if Peyton comes back next year it might be one we never really see much of a consensus on.

 

[Jeremy]

He's certainly in the discussion, but I always have a hard time with these discussions. They shouldn't have even won that game yesterday. Flacco outplayed Brady and it's only because a dropped pass and (possibly) a missed FG that he's even playing in this SB. He had a pretty bad game, actually. So it seems strange to me that we'd be using the criteria of him winning the next game as the thing that puts him over the edge.

And his first SB win was the result of the imfamous tuck rule game and a strong showing by the defense in the SB. He had 145 yards passing in that game. You can't dismiss spygate as a factor given how close all 3 of his SB "wins" were. If it helped them even a little in each game...

On the other hand he was the victim of some bad fortune in the SB loss vs the Giants. The Tyree catch. The dropped INT by Samuals.

So you can't just say he's the greatest because he has "X" numbers of SB rings. You have to look at the whole picture.

I guess my answer is "I don't know".

 

[David Yudkin]

He wont even be the greatest active QB

I'd be interested to hear which active QB will play in 5 Super Bowls. Enlighten us.

Superbowls are a team accomplishment. They are not an individual achievement and are merely a factor when determining greatness of a QB.

Yeah, I'm a bit surprised by that comment. Being in the most Super Bowls automatically makes you the greatest? Seems strange. I think it's one of a number of elements going into the discussion. That said, Brady is already in the discussion for GOAT IMO, and if he wins this one it only helps his cause. But I don't ever think there will be a consensus GOAT QB like there is (for the most part) with Jerry Rice as a WR.

I don't necessarily think Brady is the GOAT at QB. But I still am interested to discuss active QBs that have better overall resumes than Tom Brady combining the entire enchilada of team accomplishments, win-loss records, SBs, honors, awards, stats, records, etc.Peyton may have been the better pure passer, but he does not stack up to Brady in some other areas. Rodgers may be the better QB at this very moment, but he too falls short in other areas. IMO, those are the only two "active" candidates unless there are players that I am missing or who are too young to really evaluate.

 

[Warrior]

He wont even be the greatest active QB

I'd be interested to hear which active QB will play in 5 Super Bowls. Enlighten us.

Whoops...I appear to be in the wrong thread. Didn't realize this was the best coach/team/franchise thread.All you need to look at to realize Peyton > Brady is the team record without their QBs.

This year's Colts team was one of the worst of all time without Manning. With him, the same team won 10 games every season for the last decade or so.

Without Brady, under a terrible QB (Cassel), the Patriots won what...10 games?

Brady helps the Patriots. Peyton Manning IS the Colts.

 

[Devine Intervention]

Great QB, though he's no Peyton Manning..

Top 3 or 4 still isn't bad, but a lot of his success is owed to BB.

While I won't disagree with that, one could argue that a lot of BB's success is owed to Brady. It's just been one of those perfect marriages (see Brees and Payton).

If BB success is from Brady, then how do you account for Cassel doing the same thing as Brady?( I know they didn't win a SB, but they got robbed of getting into the playoffs so who knows )

 

[Warrior]

Great QB, though he's no Peyton Manning..

Top 3 or 4 still isn't bad, but a lot of his success is owed to BB.

While I won't disagree with that, one could argue that a lot of BB's success is owed to Brady. It's just been one of those perfect marriages (see Brees and Payton).

If BB success is from Brady, then how do you account for Cassel doing the same thing as Brady?( I know they didn't win a SB, but they got robbed of getting into the playoffs so who knows )

Bingo. Brady is a great QB, but he won't be on the Peyton Manning level until he shows that he can carry a team on his back. I don't think he could do it, at least not to nearly the extent that Peyton has done it for so long.When Brady went down, it was plug-and-play...the team barely missed a beat. There's no way I can say Brady is greatest of all time considering that...not even greatest active QB.

 

[Popinski]

He wont even be the greatest active QB

I'd be interested to hear which active QB will play in 5 Super Bowls. Enlighten us.

Superbowls are a team accomplishment. They are not an individual achievement and are merely a factor when determining greatness of a QB.

Yeah, I'm a bit surprised by that comment. Being in the most Super Bowls automatically makes you the greatest? Seems strange. I think it's one of a number of elements going into the discussion. That said, Brady is already in the discussion for GOAT IMO, and if he wins this one it only helps his cause.

But I don't ever think there will be a consensus GOAT QB like there is (for the most part) with Jerry Rice as a WR.

You can argue about a list of accomplishments by each QB. But to state straight up which QB was best, 2nd best, etc, is much more abstract. And comparison across different eras confounds matters even more.