If the Patriots win the Super Bowl, is Brady the greatest QB of all ti (1 Viewer)

[bostonfred]

What numbers are bostonfred talking about? These are the numbers that count:Brady 3Manning 1Seems like Brady has better number to me.

That's just one of the many numbers where brady has outperformed manning and almost all of the greatest ever to play the game. Its important, but hardly the only one.

 

[dparker713]

That's the same reason that comparing brady and manning side by side using only stats is absurd. When brady had no weapons and manning was surrounded by all pros and hall of famers at left tackle, receiver, tight end and running back, of course manning had better numbers. But that didn't mean manning was playing better.

After this season, you need to rethink the talent level of the players Peyton was playing with.

Why? Wayne was already coming off a down year with peyton, and was clearly not invested, so his dropoff was hardly a shock once manning was out. The colts had some of the worst backup qbs in the league, and made no effort to hide it. Garcon had a solid year despite changing qbs repeatedly. Sure, the colts lost a ton of games, but they were also openly talking about how much they wanted luck early in the season, and saying they wouldn't trade the number one pick for three firsts. Even with poor qb play, they were competitive in lots of games, and miraculously lost in the fourth quarter. As soon as they said caldwells job was on the line if he didn't win a game, bang, they won two games. This was the most blatant example of tanking I've ever seen in the nfl.

This is some of the most blantant homerism I've ever seen.

 

[Modog814]

Simple. You can't win a ring without consistently great team play, and no player is more important to their team than their qb. It is possible to win a ring without great qb play - dilfer and the ravens are constantly cited - but it takes alltime great play from other positions on the team to make up for it. Manning played like crap for most of his superbowl run, throwing seven picks against three ints, and was bailed out by fantastic defensive play in almost every game. But even in that run, he needed to put up a big comeback against the pats to keep them in it.

You don't need to play great individually every game, but it takes a great player at the qb position to play well enough for most championship caliber teams to get there. And even then, you need to play consistently enough to avoid throwing the pick six that sealed the game for the saints, or the four picks against the pats, or lead your team to three points against the pats the following year after your 49 td season, or choke three times in the fourth quarter against the steelers, when sacks, interceptions, and just plain stupid throws negated the many opportunities (including the bettis goal line fumble and polamalu int overruling) that put you back in the game.

Would manning be a better player if he had won the superbowl against the saints? Of course not. But a better player would have done more in the postseason. After a dozen or so seasons of watching his own screwups cost the team a game in the postseason - and you can't pin any of the above on his defense - you can't call it bad luck anymore. He just doesn't play as well in the postseason for some reason. Maybe its the cold, the pressure, the quality of defenses he faces, or whatever else. The reality is that the greatest players - like tom brady - have faced those same elements and won. And that, as much as bradys triple crown of td, int, and yardage records, or any of the countless other accolades, will always separate the two.

Sorry this is where I have to disagree with you. And this was my whole point of Brady not winning a superbowl since they've become an offensive based team. Peyton has never found himself in a situation similar to the situation Brady was in when they won 3 superbowls in 4 years. Peyton never had that kind of defense to rely on. He's always been asked to win the game by himself. And you're right, for whatever reason he hasn't played up to the way he's played in the regular season. The end result is he has 1 superbowl mostly in part to a defense that was able to bail him out.

On to Brady, since he's been asked to carry the load. He has failed every year too. Including a year (2007) where a Superbowl should have been a foregone conclusion.

It's not a coincidence that these unstoppable regular season offensive teams generally fail in the playoffs. The philosphy they play is not geared toward playing close games. They build offenses that are almost unstoppable, and then build defenses that rely on mistakes of the other teams. And when playoff time comes, they have to play better than average competition, and the margin of error is sometimes just too small. This is why most of these teams end up having to rely on the defense to "bail" them out. The Saints, the Colts and the Packers all can credit the way their defenses played in their respective superbowl runs.

 

[dparker713]

That's the same reason that comparing brady and manning side by side using only stats is absurd. When brady had no weapons and manning was surrounded by all pros and hall of famers at left tackle, receiver, tight end and running back, of course manning had better numbers. But that didn't mean manning was playing better.

After this season, you need to rethink the talent level of the players Peyton was playing with.

Invested 1st round draft picks on skill players:Colts: Edgerrin James, Donald Brown, Dallas Clark, Reggie Wayne, Anthony GonzalezPatriots: Lawrence Maroney

Don't particularly find this relevant. Draft status is not determinative of talent.

 

[David Yudkin]

Peyton never had that kind of defense to rely on.

The Colts not having a solid defense is mostly an urban legend (one that I reviewed in one of these Pats/Brady threads. The Pats 3 championship teams allowed 272, 238, and 260 points and gave up 5352, 4666, and 4972 yards.By comparison, in the Manning era, the Colts allowed under 300 points 3 times and under 320 points 2 other times. (Teams playing indoors will tend to allow more points.) Similarly, the Colts allowed fewer than 5,000 yards a season 5 times. The best defensive team was the 2005 team that allowed 247 points or the 2007 team that gave up 4475 yards (both years the Colts failed to win the Super Bowl).Given the amount of yardage the Colts could rack up and the number of points they scored, they should have advanced further in seasons where they gave up 247, 262, and 298 points.

 

[Modog814]

Peyton never had that kind of defense to rely on.

The Colts not having a solid defense is mostly an urban legend (one that I reviewed in one of these Pats/Brady threads. The Pats 3 championship teams allowed 272, 238, and 260 points and gave up 5352, 4666, and 4972 yards.By comparison, in the Manning era, the Colts allowed under 300 points 3 times and under 320 points 2 other times. (Teams playing indoors will tend to allow more points.) Similarly, the Colts allowed fewer than 5,000 yards a season 5 times. The best defensive team was the 2005 team that allowed 247 points or the 2007 team that gave up 4475 yards (both years the Colts failed to win the Super Bowl).Given the amount of yardage the Colts could rack up and the number of points they scored, they should have advanced further in seasons where they gave up 247, 262, and 298 points.

Fair enough, but I'm not sure you can pin any of those playoff losses on Manning. In 2005, Manning put Vanderjagt in a position to tie the game and he missed the fg (46 yd so it wasn't a gimme), 2007 Indy was up on SD in the 4th before a late SD TD. 2008 Indy was again up in the 4th and gave up a tying fg with less than a minute left and never got a chance in OT.

 

[Sinrman]

Ooohhh that's a toughy. If Brady wins this one, I'd still have to say Montana #1, Brady a VERY close #2. But Brady isn't even close to being done. Still has

several seasons left, so he could easily surpass Montana when it's all said and done.

 

[Run It Up]

Ooohhh that's a toughy. If Brady wins this one, I'd still have to say Montana #1, Brady a VERY close #2. But Brady isn't even close to being done. Still hasseveral seasons left, so he could easily surpass Montana when it's all said and done.

What does it take lol? Cause tying him in the only thing Montana beats him by is clearly not a measure of anything.Full disclosure, I dont care to fact check this statement.

 

[Devine Intervention]

I can honestly say that if you put Brady on the NYG right now, with the exact team Eli plays with, I think he does worse than Eli.

I will say Brady is a perfect fit for the scheme in NE and BB is a genius for building that team to fit Brady. When Cassel came in BB made if fit Cassel, I think BB is just that good. Brady's talents are perfect for it, he has a solid arm, super smart in his reads and clutch. BUT... I dont think Brady plays well with pressure in his face all game and when he is off his mark, where I think Eli really has success. I picture Brady on NYG and I see him scared all game and missing his throws. Watch the preseason game against Detroit for example of how he gets when someone actually is able to get pressure.

 

[bostonfred]

I can honestly say that if you put Brady on the NYG right now, with the exact team Eli plays with, I think he does worse than Eli. I will say Brady is a perfect fit for the scheme in NE and BB is a genius for building that team to fit Brady. When Cassel came in BB made if fit Cassel, I think BB is just that good. Brady's talents are perfect for it, he has a solid arm, super smart in his reads and clutch. BUT... I dont think Brady plays well with pressure in his face all game and when he is off his mark, where I think Eli really has success. I picture Brady on NYG and I see him scared all game and missing his throws. Watch the preseason game against Detroit for example of how he gets when someone actually is able to get pressure.

That would be good analysis if it had any basis in reality. Brady in 2001 through 2004 was primarily a slants, screens, double screens, etc guy who was tremendous at handling pressure and moving around in the pocket. Brady in 2005 and 2006 was beginning to throw the deep ball more because troy brown and corey dillon were on the downside and they were looking for ways to keep teams out of the box. Brady in 2007 was throwing the ball deep far more often, mostly to moss, and had only one other good target in welker. The rest of the guys had bad hands, which is why the book on brady became pressure up the middle and double moss and welker whenever possible. It worked for a grand total of one team that year. since the knee injury, brady has been easier to rattle by hitting him low early and often, and some teams have done that. But his game has also changed dramatically because he has the tight ends to work with, and he can throw a lot more hard intermediate routes and slow developing plays in addition to his bread and butter plays. He is tremendously aware in the pocket and always has been. But other than that, your analysis was spot on.

 

[Run It Up]

I can honestly say that if you put Brady on the NYG right now, with the exact team Eli plays with, I think he does worse than Eli.

I will say Brady is a perfect fit for the scheme in NE and BB is a genius for building that team to fit Brady. When Cassel came in BB made if fit Cassel, I think BB is just that good. Brady's talents are perfect for it, he has a solid arm, super smart in his reads and clutch. BUT... I dont think Brady plays well with pressure in his face all game and when he is off his mark, where I think Eli really has success. I picture Brady on NYG and I see him scared all game and missing his throws. Watch the preseason game against Detroit for example of how he gets when someone actually is able to get pressure.

That would be good analysis if it had any basis in reality. Brady in 2001 through 2004 was primarily a slants, screens, double screens, etc guy who was tremendous at handling pressure and moving around in the pocket. Brady in 2005 and 2006 was beginning to throw the deep ball more because troy brown and corey dillon were on the downside and they were looking for ways to keep teams out of the box. Brady in 2007 was throwing the ball deep far more often, mostly to moss, and had only one other good target in welker. The rest of the guys had bad hands, which is why the book on brady became pressure up the middle and double moss and welker whenever possible. It worked for a grand total of one team that year. since the knee injury, brady has been easier to rattle by hitting him low early and often, and some teams have done that. But his game has also changed dramatically because he has the tight ends to work with, and he can throw a lot more hard intermediate routes and slow developing plays in addition to his bread and butter plays. He is tremendously aware in the pocket and always has been. But other than that, your analysis was spot on.

Hes also married to this woman: Yeah, really.And I think its safe to say you are all exactly this jealous.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

That's the same reason that comparing brady and manning side by side using only stats is absurd. When brady had no weapons and manning was surrounded by all pros and hall of famers at left tackle, receiver, tight end and running back, of course manning had better numbers. But that didn't mean manning was playing better.

After this season, you need to rethink the talent level of the players Peyton was playing with.

Invested 1st round draft picks on skill players:Colts: Edgerrin James, Donald Brown, Dallas Clark, Reggie Wayne, Anthony GonzalezPatriots: Lawrence Maroney

Don't particularly find this relevant. Draft status is not determinative of talent.

It shows that Indy was at least attempting year after year to get Manning some talent through the early portion of the draft.NE didn't do that same with Brady. Now you could start talking about free agency/etc. I thought it was more relevant than some people spouting off that Brady wouldn't be a good fit in NYG...

 

[AmosMoses]

What numbers are bostonfred talking about? These are the numbers that count:Brady 3Manning 1Seems like Brady has better number to me.

That's just one of the many numbers where brady has outperformed manning and almost all of the greatest ever to play the game. Its important, but hardly the only one.

None of the other numbers mean anything. Super bowls are why they play.

 

[Tau837]

That's the same reason that comparing brady and manning side by side using only stats is absurd. When brady had no weapons and manning was surrounded by all pros and hall of famers at left tackle, receiver, tight end and running back, of course manning had better numbers. But that didn't mean manning was playing better.

After this season, you need to rethink the talent level of the players Peyton was playing with.

Yes, and bf's statement as written is way off. Manning played with two clear HOFers, Harrison and Faulk, though he only played with Faulk for one year (Manning's rookie year). James will probably get consideration, but he is by no means a lock. It is very unlikely any left tackle or tight end he played with will make the HOF.It's fair to say Manning played with greater overall talent on offense, there is no need to overstate it.

 

[Tau837]

Ooohhh that's a toughy. If Brady wins this one, I'd still have to say Montana #1, Brady a VERY close #2. But Brady isn't even close to being done. Still hasseveral seasons left, so he could easily surpass Montana when it's all said and done.

What does it take lol? Cause tying him in the only thing Montana beats him by is clearly not a measure of anything.Full disclosure, I dont care to fact check this statement.

Montana played much better in the postseason than Brady has to date. Compare their passing yards, TDs, passer rating, etc. Those measures favor Montana by a decent margin.

 

[bostonfred]

That's the same reason that comparing brady and manning side by side using only stats is absurd. When brady had no weapons and manning was surrounded by all pros and hall of famers at left tackle, receiver, tight end and running back, of course manning had better numbers. But that didn't mean manning was playing better.

After this season, you need to rethink the talent level of the players Peyton was playing with.

Yes, and bf's statement as written is way off. Manning played with two clear HOFers, Harrison and Faulk, though he only played with Faulk for one year (Manning's rookie year). James will probably get consideration, but he is by no means a lock. It is very unlikely any left tackle or tight end he played with will make the HOF.It's fair to say Manning played with greater overall talent on offense, there is no need to overstate it.

Tell me how im way off when I say all pros and hall of famers and you say no, only some of them were hall of famers, 5he others were just all pros. Don't call me to the carpet when you're wrong.

 

[Run It Up]

Ooohhh that's a toughy. If Brady wins this one, I'd still have to say Montana #1, Brady a VERY close #2. But Brady isn't even close to being done. Still hasseveral seasons left, so he could easily surpass Montana when it's all said and done.

What does it take lol? Cause tying him in the only thing Montana beats him by is clearly not a measure of anything.Full disclosure, I dont care to fact check this statement.

Montana played much better in the postseason than Brady has to date. Compare their passing yards, TDs, passer rating, etc. Those measures favor Montana by a decent margin.

The only argument I have against that is besides Montana having played against inferior teams in the playoffs comparatively he was on much better teams with easily the best player to play the game on his team for many of them.

 

[Tau837]

That's the same reason that comparing brady and manning side by side using only stats is absurd. When brady had no weapons and manning was surrounded by all pros and hall of famers at left tackle, receiver, tight end and running back, of course manning had better numbers. But that didn't mean manning was playing better.

After this season, you need to rethink the talent level of the players Peyton was playing with.

Yes, and bf's statement as written is way off. Manning played with two clear HOFers, Harrison and Faulk, though he only played with Faulk for one year (Manning's rookie year). James will probably get consideration, but he is by no means a lock. It is very unlikely any left tackle or tight end he played with will make the HOF.It's fair to say Manning played with greater overall talent on offense, there is no need to overstate it.

Tell me how im way off when I say all pros and hall of famers and you say no, only some of them were hall of famers, 5he others were just all pros. Don't call me to the carpet when you're wrong.

OK, in fairness, I definitely zeroed in on the HOF part. However, let's examine the All Pros:OL:IND - Saturday (2)NE - Light (1)WR:IND - Harrison (3), Wayne (1)NE - Welker (2), Moss (1)TE:IND - Clark (1)NE - Gronkowski (1)RB:IND - James (1)NE - noneReally not much of a difference over such a long period (14 years for Manning, compared to 12 years for Brady).Also consider these:K:IND - Vanderjagt (1)NE - Vinatieri (2), Gostkowski (1)Defense:IND - Freeney (3), Sanders (2)NE - Seymour (3), Mayo (1), Law (1), Samuel (1), Vrabel (1), Harrison (1)So Brady has played with more All Pros than Manning. ETA: And you will notice that there are no left tackles listed for the Colts...

 

[Tau837]

Ooohhh that's a toughy. If Brady wins this one, I'd still have to say Montana #1, Brady a VERY close #2. But Brady isn't even close to being done. Still hasseveral seasons left, so he could easily surpass Montana when it's all said and done.

What does it take lol? Cause tying him in the only thing Montana beats him by is clearly not a measure of anything.Full disclosure, I dont care to fact check this statement.

Montana played much better in the postseason than Brady has to date. Compare their passing yards, TDs, passer rating, etc. Those measures favor Montana by a decent margin.

The only argument I have against that is besides Montana having played against inferior teams in the playoffs comparatively he was on much better teams with easily the best player to play the game on his team for many of them.

Jerry Rice played in fewer than half of Montana's playoff games. Can you justify the statement about playing weaker teams?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Can you justify the statement about playing weaker teams?

Ya, I just rolled my eyes an figured it wasnt even worth discussing.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

What numbers are bostonfred talking about? These are the numbers that count:Brady 3Manning 1Seems like Brady has better number to me.

That's just one of the many numbers where brady has outperformed manning and almost all of the greatest ever to play the game. Its important, but hardly the only one.

None of the other numbers mean anything. Super bowls are why they play.

Trent Dilfer 1Dan Marino 0Super Bowls are why they play

 

[Driver]

What numbers are bostonfred talking about? These are the numbers that count:

Brady 3

Manning 1

Seems like Brady has better number to me.

That's just one of the many numbers where brady has outperformed manning and almost all of the greatest ever to play the game. Its important, but hardly the only one.

None of the other numbers mean anything. Super bowls are why they play.

Consider the last 10 years (from 2002 to 2011) and exclude the one season missed by Brady (2008) or Manning (2011). The Patriots are 112-32 and the Colts are 109-35 in those 9 seasons, with almost identical winning percentages.The Colts made the playoffs all 9 seasons. They lost their first playoff game 5 times. They made it to 3 Conference championship games, and won 2 of them to make it to the Super Bowl. They won one SuperBowl.

The Patriots made the playoffs in 8 of those seasons (missing 2002). They lost their first playoff game 2 times. They made it to the Conference championship game 6 times, and won 5 of them. They won 3 SuperBowls, with a fourth chance waiting next Sunday.

IMO the most clutch players rise to the occasion in the most important games -- and they find a way to win those games. Call it what you will -- a will-to-win, a killer instinct, etc. The best players refuse to lose and inspire their teams to wins in the biggest games. Tom Brady is clearly a clutch player. Peyton Manning, not so much. However, I'd say that, based on his record so far, Eli Manning looks like a clutch player to me. Roethlisberger definitely is. Of course, Joe Montana was.

Peyton's an excellent QB and he has great statistics. For whatever reason, Peyton hasn't risen to the occasion nearly enough in the biggest games like the playoffs. In 9 playoff appearances, Peyton's team only made it to the conference championship games 3 times, with a single SB trophy. In 8 playoff appearances, Brady's team made it to the conference championship game 6 times, with 3 SB rings and a possible fourth in the offing. No comparison.

 

[johnnycakes]

Just for ####s and giggles, I took a quick look at that 2000 NFL Draft. Where are they now?

#18 New York Jets, Chad Pennington

#65 SF 49ers, Giovanni Car-f'n-mazzi

#75 Baltimore Ravens, Chris Redman

#163 Pittsburg Steelers, Tee "5 plays" Martin

#168, N'awlins Saints, Marc Bulger

#183, Cleveland Browns, Spergon Wynn

#199, NE Patriots, Tom "drafting me is the best decision this organization ever made" Brady

#202, Washington Redskins, Todd Husak

#205, SD Chargers, JaJuan Seider

 

[dparker713]

I can honestly say that if you put Brady on the NYG right now, with the exact team Eli plays with, I think he does worse than Eli.

I will say Brady is a perfect fit for the scheme in NE and BB is a genius for building that team to fit Brady. When Cassel came in BB made if fit Cassel, I think BB is just that good. Brady's talents are perfect for it, he has a solid arm, super smart in his reads and clutch. BUT... I dont think Brady plays well with pressure in his face all game and when he is off his mark, where I think Eli really has success. I picture Brady on NYG and I see him scared all game and missing his throws. Watch the preseason game against Detroit for example of how he gets when someone actually is able to get pressure.

That would be good analysis if it had any basis in reality. Brady in 2001 through 2004 was primarily a slants, screens, double screens, etc guy who was tremendous at handling pressure and moving around in the pocket. Brady in 2005 and 2006 was beginning to throw the deep ball more because troy brown and corey dillon were on the downside and they were looking for ways to keep teams out of the box. the steroids were finally working.

 

[dparker713]

That's the same reason that comparing brady and manning side by side using only stats is absurd. When brady had no weapons and manning was surrounded by all pros and hall of famers at left tackle, receiver, tight end and running back, of course manning had better numbers. But that didn't mean manning was playing better.

After this season, you need to rethink the talent level of the players Peyton was playing with.

Invested 1st round draft picks on skill players:Colts: Edgerrin James, Donald Brown, Dallas Clark, Reggie Wayne, Anthony GonzalezPatriots: Lawrence Maroney

Don't particularly find this relevant. Draft status is not determinative of talent.

It shows that Indy was at least attempting year after year to get Manning some talent through the early portion of the draft.NE didn't do that same with Brady. Now you could start talking about free agency/etc. I thought it was more relevant than some people spouting off that Brady wouldn't be a good fit in NYG...

Trying and succeeding are two different things.

 

[dparker713]

What numbers are bostonfred talking about? These are the numbers that count:

Brady 3

Manning 1

Seems like Brady has better number to me.

That's just one of the many numbers where brady has outperformed manning and almost all of the greatest ever to play the game. Its important, but hardly the only one.

None of the other numbers mean anything. Super bowls are why they play.

Consider the last 10 years (from 2002 to 2011) and exclude the one season missed by Brady (2008) or Manning (2011). The Patriots are 112-32 and the Colts are 109-35 in those 9 seasons, with almost identical winning percentages.The Colts made the playoffs all 9 seasons. They lost their first playoff game 5 times. They made it to 3 Conference championship games, and won 2 of them to make it to the Super Bowl. They won one SuperBowl.

The Patriots made the playoffs in 8 of those seasons (missing 2002). They lost their first playoff game 2 times. They made it to the Conference championship game 6 times, and won 5 of them. They won 3 SuperBowls, with a fourth chance waiting next Sunday.

IMO the most clutch players rise to the occasion in the most important games -- and they find a way to win those games. Call it what you will -- a will-to-win, a killer instinct, etc. The best players refuse to lose and inspire their teams to wins in the biggest games. Tom Brady is clearly a clutch player. Peyton Manning, not so much. However, I'd say that, based on his record so far, Eli Manning looks like a clutch player to me. Roethlisberger definitely is. Of course, Joe Montana was.

Peyton's an excellent QB and he has great statistics. For whatever reason, Peyton hasn't risen to the occasion nearly enough in the biggest games like the playoffs. In 9 playoff appearances, Peyton's team only made it to the conference championship games 3 times, with a single SB trophy. In 8 playoff appearances, Brady's team made it to the conference championship game 6 times, with 3 SB rings and a possible fourth in the offing. No comparison.

Blah blah, team accomlishment. Blah, team accomplishment. Blah blah blah blah, team accomplishment. Therefore, Tom Brady.

 

[AmosMoses]

What numbers are bostonfred talking about? These are the numbers that count:Brady 3Manning 1Seems like Brady has better number to me.

That's just one of the many numbers where brady has outperformed manning and almost all of the greatest ever to play the game. Its important, but hardly the only one.

None of the other numbers mean anything. Super bowls are why they play.

Trent Dilfer 1Dan Marino 0Super Bowls are why they play

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

That's the same reason that comparing brady and manning side by side using only stats is absurd. When brady had no weapons and manning was surrounded by all pros and hall of famers at left tackle, receiver, tight end and running back, of course manning had better numbers. But that didn't mean manning was playing better.

After this season, you need to rethink the talent level of the players Peyton was playing with.

Yes, and bf's statement as written is way off. Manning played with two clear HOFers, Harrison and Faulk, though he only played with Faulk for one year (Manning's rookie year). James will probably get consideration, but he is by no means a lock. It is very unlikely any left tackle or tight end he played with will make the HOF.It's fair to say Manning played with greater overall talent on offense, there is no need to overstate it.

Tell me how im way off when I say all pros and hall of famers and you say no, only some of them were hall of famers, 5he others were just all pros. Don't call me to the carpet when you're wrong.

OK, in fairness, I definitely zeroed in on the HOF part. However, let's examine the All Pros:OL:IND - Saturday (2)NE - Light (1)WR:IND - Harrison (3), Wayne (1)NE - Welker (2), Moss (1)TE:IND - Clark (1)NE - Gronkowski (1)RB:IND - James (1)NE - noneReally not much of a difference over such a long period (14 years for Manning, compared to 12 years for Brady).Also consider these:K:IND - Vanderjagt (1)NE - Vinatieri (2), Gostkowski (1)Defense:IND - Freeney (3), Sanders (2)NE - Seymour (3), Mayo (1), Law (1), Samuel (1), Vrabel (1), Harrison (1)So Brady has played with more All Pros than Manning. ETA: And you will notice that there are no left tackles listed for the Colts...

I think part of this argument for me is that Peyton Manning was the first overall pick and had very high expectations. Tom Brady was a 6th round afterthought and still has a chip on his shoulder. It's kind of like Butler/VCU vs the NCAA powerhouses, I like to cheer on the underdog.

 

[Bri]

I think so.

With Brady we can probably find a thread (or two or three or fifty) harshly criticizing some aspect of the Pats whether it be their run game, their wide receivers, their line, their secondary...you name it, there was always some position that supposedly stunk and the Pats would have a real hard time being able to win.

BF's post about a Manning comparison and the elements got brushed aside. Has there ever been a QB that has had such extremely favorable success in every weather condition?

Brady has been on the downside of bad calls, fortunate to get favorable calls and won anyway. He's been a part of controversies with his coaches, he's had coaches pass away and many many others leave for new teams and nothing fazes this guy. Any one of the above has triggered a huge downswing from some of the best QBs ever, but he just keeps rolling.

QBs are often an extension of the coach or offensive coordinator. Brees and some others are quite obvious. We knew Montana was rolling in that West Coast offense, what's Brady commanding? The NE Patsy? BB has always demolished any matchup he possibly could and Brady (similarly) takes whatever he can from a D. The Pats have had plenty of different weapons get it done in a myriad of ways and...I'm not so sure BB is this genius offensive mind. God Bless him on defensive game planning, but I'm not so sure about offense. At times, I think Brady can simply make stuff happen and that is the gameplan.

Manning is the best prototype we've ever seen. There isn't anything that guy couldn't do perfectly-read defenses, different throws etc. Granted there's plenty of good points about winning big games that shouldn't be discounted at all. That's a will to win and leadership aspect that Manning probably lacks(when compared to best ever) in, but if you could create a QB in Madden or some God-like experiment, it'd be Manning. He is a perfect prototype.

 

[Run It Up]

Jerry Rice played in fewer than half of Montana's playoff games.

12 is more than half of 23, he won half of his rings without rice, half with. 12 is still more times than Brady.

Can you justify the statement about playing weaker teams?

Watching any of the playoff games during the niners era is was pretty clear that the teams played against were of an inferior stock.

 

[Bri]

OK, in fairness, I definitely zeroed in on the HOF part. However, let's examine the All Pros:OL:IND - Saturday (2)NE - Light (1)WR:IND - Harrison (3), Wayne (1)NE - Welker (2), Moss (1)TE:IND - Clark (1)NE - Gronkowski (1)RB:IND - James (1)NE - noneReally not much of a difference over such a long period (14 years for Manning, compared to 12 years for Brady).Also consider these:K:IND - Vanderjagt (1)NE - Vinatieri (2), Gostkowski (1)Defense:IND - Freeney (3), Sanders (2)NE - Seymour (3), Mayo (1), Law (1), Samuel (1), Vrabel (1), Harrison (1)So Brady has played with more All Pros than Manning. ETA: And you will notice that there are no left tackles listed for the Colts...

I think you're missing some dude. Maybe you already thought of this, but the Pats had 10 zillion older players. I figure at one point they made all-pro, at least a couple of them. What stood out to me was the Colts had a great line for Manning at one point. I can't remember em' all. Tarik Glenn was real good. I think you found an oops that this guy never made All Pro. He was probably just a shade under some years or simply lost a close vote. One was Jake Scott a guy the Titans gave too much money to, but he did real well in Indy.This snip is from his Titans page- In 2006, Scott started all 16 regular season games at right guard for the Super Bowl XLI champions and helped the offensive line surrender a league-low 15 sacks, the third consecutive season the team accomplished the feat.third time Colts allowed just 15 sacks for the season? third time they were lowest in the league? Well whatever it is, that's gotta be the time I'm remembering. That was a top top unit for three years and it was hard as H to get to Manning

 

[Bri]

Jerry Rice played in fewer than half of Montana's playoff games.

12 is more than half of 23, he won half of his rings without rice, half with. 12 is still more times than Brady.

Can you justify the statement about playing weaker teams?

Watching any of the playoff games during the niners era is was pretty clear that the teams played against were of an inferior stock.

You're mistaken or this is not worded so well. Montana's division was a bit of a joke at times, but outside the division there were tons of good teams and the NFC was eons better than the AFC. Most Supes were blowouts and quite boring.The Bears and Giants were two of the best defenses ever, possibly the best two ever, and Montana had to beat them. The Eagles and Redskins were very good(with Skins winning a Supe or two) and despite winning a Supe they were considered inferior to Niners, Gmen, or DaBears. This was a special era for the NFC and certainly not inferior competition for Montana to play against.

 

[Ghost Rider]

It's fair to say Manning played with greater overall talent on offense, there is no need to overstate it.

It's what bostonfred does. Like him earlier saying that Brady had no one to throw to in 2007 except for Moss and Welker, ignoring the fact that Donte Stallworth put up very respectable number 3 WR numbers (and Gaffney was not a bad number 4 either). bf will always spin and distort the truth enough to put Brady in the best possible light (as if he needs to do it, since Brady is definitely one of the best of all-time already).

BF's post about a Manning comparison and the elements got brushed aside. Has there ever been a QB that has had such extremely favorable success in every weather condition?

Playing in a dome has been good AND bad for Peyton. It has definitely helped when it comes to putting up astronomical regular season numbers, but on the flip side, not playing a lot of games outside in bad weather puts him at a disadvantage in such games. Look at how poorly he played in the playoff losses to the Patriots in both 2003 and 2004 (24-14 and 20-3 losses); both were in bad weather outside, conditions he is not used to playing in. It is easy to dog him for putting up only 3 points in a playoff loss after throwing 49 touchdown passes in a season, but you have to take the conditions into account. Of course Tom Brady generally plays much better in games outside in bad weather than Peyton: he plays in those conditions with much more frequency.

 

[daveR]

OK, in fairness, I definitely zeroed in on the HOF part. However, let's examine the All Pros:

OL:

IND - Saturday (2)

NE - Light (1)

WR:

IND - Harrison (3), Wayne (1)

NE - Welker (2), Moss (1)

TE:

IND - Clark (1)

NE - Gronkowski (1)

RB:

IND - James (1)

NE - none

Really not much of a difference over such a long period (14 years for Manning, compared to 12 years for Brady).

Also consider these:

K:

IND - Vanderjagt (1)

NE - Vinatieri (2), Gostkowski (1)

Defense:

IND - Freeney (3), Sanders (2)

NE - Seymour (3), Mayo (1), Law (1), Samuel (1), Vrabel (1), Harrison (1)

So Brady has played with more All Pros than Manning.

ETA: And you will notice that there are no left tackles listed for the Colts...

I think you're missing some dude. Maybe you already thought of this, but the Pats had 10 zillion older players. I figure at one point they made all-pro, at least a couple of them. What stood out to me was the Colts had a great line for Manning at one point. I can't remember em' all. Tarik Glenn was real good. I think you found an oops that this guy never made All Pro. He was probably just a shade under some years or simply lost a close vote.

One was Jake Scott a guy the Titans gave too much money to, but he did real well in Indy.

This snip is from his Titans page- In 2006, Scott started all 16 regular season games at right guard for the Super Bowl XLI champions and helped the offensive line surrender a league-low 15 sacks, the third consecutive season the team accomplished the feat.

third time Colts allowed just 15 sacks for the season? third time they were lowest in the league? Well whatever it is, that's gotta be the time I'm remembering. That was a top top unit for three years and it was hard as H to get to Manning

But don't forget that Manning had a very large part in those low-sack years. (Witness 2011.) He would take his offense to the line early, read the D, and make the play & blocking adjustments right then. These are a few of the things that are overlooked by Joe Average when comparing QBs. IMO, Manning stands alone.

 

[fantasizing]

Tom Brady

2001:Superbowl MVP (troy brown sets franchise record with 101 receptions)

2002: led NFL in TD passes (two receivers with more than 3 td receptions are fauria with 7 and patten with 5)

2003: Superbowl MVP (leading receiver is Branch with 803 yards)

2004: Superbowl champ (Deion Branch sets receptions record as Superbowl MVP)

2005: extends playoff record to 10-0, throws for 4120 yards and 28 TDs with no receiver getting 1000 yards or more than 5tds.

2006: afc championship game (leading receiver is reche caldwell with 760 yards)

2007: league mvp, 18-0, superbowl, all time greatest offense, sets td record with 50 tds and only 8 ints (leading receiver randy moss)

2008: misses season, pats lose 5 more games, cassel throws for 1300 fewer yards, and miss playoffs for first time since 2002)

2009: returns to playoffs, throws for 900 more yards than cassel. (Leading receiver is wes welker)

2010: league mvp in first fully healthy season post injury, 36 tds/4 ints and sets interception record (leading receiver wes welker)

2011: returns to superbowl (outcome tbd), breaks marinos yardage record, helps rob gronkowski set all time te records for yards and tds.

Greatest of all time.

It's really hard to ignore the statistics when you are trying to determine the best QB of all time.Brady's resume speaks for itself. Randy Moss comes out of the gutter in Oakland to catch 23 TDs in his first season with Brady. The most in Randy Moss's illustrious career. Why? because Brady is such an average QB?

Brady throws for an NFL record 50 touchdowns in a season. Did Belichek throw those passes?

Brady breaks Marino's passing yards record but it's hardly noticed as Brees gets all the accolades because he hits the mark first. Cudoes to Brees for this.

Brady throws an unbelievable 4 INT's in a 16 game season. Because he is erratic under pressure?

And the list goes on and on and on.......

Oh, and how could I forget: He was won 3 superbowl titles. But that's just a minor point.

Yes, it's a team game, Bill Belichek is a coaching genius, NE's defences have historically been stellar, but Brady still has to deliver the football in the clutch in the playoffs, and he has. Brady has the same thing that Montana had: poise

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Tom Brady

2001:Superbowl MVP (troy brown sets franchise record with 101 receptions)

2002: led NFL in TD passes (two receivers with more than 3 td receptions are fauria with 7 and patten with 5)

2003: Superbowl MVP (leading receiver is Branch with 803 yards)

2004: Superbowl champ (Deion Branch sets receptions record as Superbowl MVP)

2005: extends playoff record to 10-0, throws for 4120 yards and 28 TDs with no receiver getting 1000 yards or more than 5tds.

2006: afc championship game (leading receiver is reche caldwell with 760 yards)

2007: league mvp, 18-0, superbowl, all time greatest offense, sets td record with 50 tds and only 8 ints (leading receiver randy moss)

2008: misses season, pats lose 5 more games, cassel throws for 1300 fewer yards, and miss playoffs for first time since 2002)

2009: returns to playoffs, throws for 900 more yards than cassel. (Leading receiver is wes welker)

2010: league mvp in first fully healthy season post injury, 36 tds/4 ints and sets interception record (leading receiver wes welker)

2011: returns to superbowl (outcome tbd), breaks marinos yardage record, helps rob gronkowski set all time te records for yards and tds.

Greatest of all time.

It's really hard to ignore the statistics when you are trying to determine the best QB of all time.Brady's resume speaks for itself. Randy Moss comes out of the gutter in Oakland to catch 23 TDs in his first season with Brady. The most in Randy Moss's illustrious career. Why? because Brady is such an average QB?

Brady throws for an NFL record 50 touchdowns in a season. Did Belichek throw those passes?

Brady breaks Marino's passing yards record but it's hardly noticed as Brees gets all the accolades because he hits the mark first. Cudoes to Brees for this.

Brady throws an unbelievable 4 INT's in a 16 game season. Because he is erratic under pressure?

And the list goes on and on and on.......

Oh, and how could I forget: He was won 3 superbowl titles. But that's just a minor point.

Yes, it's a team game, Bill Belichek is a coaching genius, NE's defences have historically been stellar, but Brady still has to deliver the football in the clutch in the playoffs, and he has. Brady has the same thing that Montana had: poise

Brady was clutch with the tuck ruleBrady was clutch scoring no offensive TDs against Steelers next week in AFC championship before getting hurt

Brady was clutch when John kasy kicked the ball out of bounds, leading to a short FG drive to win the Sb against the Panthers

Brady was clutch when he threw what should have been game eneding INT against Chargers 2006, only to have DB fumble back to Pats

Brady was clutch following week when pats blew lead against Colts and he threw a INT on the Pats final drive

Brady was clutch when he threw 3 Ints against a hobbled Chargers teamin AFC championship

Brady was clutch when his record setting offense only scores 14 pts in SB against Giants

Brady was cluth in playoff loss to Ravens throwing mult Ints

Brady was clutch in playoff loss to Jets when he was ducking from ghost dlineman

Brady was clutch in win over ravens last week when Lee Evans and Cundif screwed up

Brady was clutch when mat Cassel takes over team and wins 11 games

He is a good QB, but very fortunate and overrated

 

[Tau837]

OK, in fairness, I definitely zeroed in on the HOF part. However, let's examine the All Pros:OL:IND - Saturday (2)NE - Light (1)WR:IND - Harrison (3), Wayne (1)NE - Welker (2), Moss (1)TE:IND - Clark (1)NE - Gronkowski (1)RB:IND - James (1)NE - noneReally not much of a difference over such a long period (14 years for Manning, compared to 12 years for Brady).Also consider these:K:IND - Vanderjagt (1)NE - Vinatieri (2), Gostkowski (1)Defense:IND - Freeney (3), Sanders (2)NE - Seymour (3), Mayo (1), Law (1), Samuel (1), Vrabel (1), Harrison (1)So Brady has played with more All Pros than Manning. ETA: And you will notice that there are no left tackles listed for the Colts...

I think you're missing some dude. Maybe you already thought of this, but the Pats had 10 zillion older players. I figure at one point they made all-pro, at least a couple of them. What stood out to me was the Colts had a great line for Manning at one point. I can't remember em' all. Tarik Glenn was real good. I think you found an oops that this guy never made All Pro. He was probably just a shade under some years or simply lost a close vote. One was Jake Scott a guy the Titans gave too much money to, but he did real well in Indy.This snip is from his Titans page- In 2006, Scott started all 16 regular season games at right guard for the Super Bowl XLI champions and helped the offensive line surrender a league-low 15 sacks, the third consecutive season the team accomplished the feat.third time Colts allowed just 15 sacks for the season? third time they were lowest in the league? Well whatever it is, that's gotta be the time I'm remembering. That was a top top unit for three years and it was hard as H to get to Manning

Well, dude, I got all that info straight off pro-football-reference.com. In case it wasn't completely obvious, I was referring to times players made All Pro while playing with Manning or Brady.Also, one reason it was hard to sack Manning is because of Manning (being aware of the pass rush, quick release, etc.). It's not all the offensive line.

 

[Tau837]

Jerry Rice played in fewer than half of Montana's playoff games.

12 is more than half of 23, he won half of his rings without rice, half with. 12 is still more times than Brady.

Rice played in 11 of Montana's 23 playoff games, which is less than half, as I said.

Can you justify the statement about playing weaker teams?

Watching any of the playoff games during the niners era is was pretty clear that the teams played against were of an inferior stock.

That's what I thought... you can't justify the statement.

 

[Devine Intervention]

Tom Brady

2001:Superbowl MVP (troy brown sets franchise record with 101 receptions)

2002: led NFL in TD passes (two receivers with more than 3 td receptions are fauria with 7 and patten with 5)

2003: Superbowl MVP (leading receiver is Branch with 803 yards)

2004: Superbowl champ (Deion Branch sets receptions record as Superbowl MVP)

2005: extends playoff record to 10-0, throws for 4120 yards and 28 TDs with no receiver getting 1000 yards or more than 5tds.

2006: afc championship game (leading receiver is reche caldwell with 760 yards)

2007: league mvp, 18-0, superbowl, all time greatest offense, sets td record with 50 tds and only 8 ints (leading receiver randy moss)

2008: misses season, pats lose 5 more games, cassel throws for 1300 fewer yards, and miss playoffs for first time since 2002)

2009: returns to playoffs, throws for 900 more yards than cassel. (Leading receiver is wes welker)

2010: league mvp in first fully healthy season post injury, 36 tds/4 ints and sets interception record (leading receiver wes welker)

2011: returns to superbowl (outcome tbd), breaks marinos yardage record, helps rob gronkowski set all time te records for yards and tds.

Greatest of all time.

It's really hard to ignore the statistics when you are trying to determine the best QB of all time.Brady's resume speaks for itself. Randy Moss comes out of the gutter in Oakland to catch 23 TDs in his first season with Brady. The most in Randy Moss's illustrious career. Why? because Brady is such an average QB?

Brady throws for an NFL record 50 touchdowns in a season. Did Belichek throw those passes?

Brady breaks Marino's passing yards record but it's hardly noticed as Brees gets all the accolades because he hits the mark first. Cudoes to Brees for this.

Brady throws an unbelievable 4 INT's in a 16 game season. Because he is erratic under pressure?

And the list goes on and on and on.......

Oh, and how could I forget: He was won 3 superbowl titles. But that's just a minor point.

Yes, it's a team game, Bill Belichek is a coaching genius, NE's defences have historically been stellar, but Brady still has to deliver the football in the clutch in the playoffs, and he has. Brady has the same thing that Montana had: poise

Brady was clutch with the tuck ruleBrady was clutch scoring no offensive TDs against Steelers next week in AFC championship before getting hurt

Brady was clutch when John kasy kicked the ball out of bounds, leading to a short FG drive to win the Sb against the Panthers

Brady was clutch when he threw what should have been game eneding INT against Chargers 2006, only to have DB fumble back to Pats

Brady was clutch following week when pats blew lead against Colts and he threw a INT on the Pats final drive

Brady was clutch when he threw 3 Ints against a hobbled Chargers teamin AFC championship

Brady was clutch when his record setting offense only scores 14 pts in SB against Giants

Brady was cluth in playoff loss to Ravens throwing mult Ints

Brady was clutch in playoff loss to Jets when he was ducking from ghost dlineman

Brady was clutch in win over ravens last week when Lee Evans and Cundif screwed up

Brady was clutch when mat Cassel takes over team and wins 11 games

He is a good QB, but very fortunate and overrated

Brady lovers just cant see that. He has been saved by his team or the major mistakes of the opposition so many times. Add to that the fact that if their kicker wasn't as clutch as it gets Brady doesn't even sniff all this success.

 

[bostonfred]

Playing in a dome has been good AND bad for Peyton. It has definitely helped when it comes to putting up astronomical regular season numbers, but on the flip side, not playing a lot of games outside in bad weather puts him at a disadvantage in such games. Look at how poorly he played in the playoff losses to the Patriots in both 2003 and 2004 (24-14 and 20-3 losses); both were in bad weather outside, conditions he is not used to playing in. It is easy to dog him for putting up only 3 points in a playoff loss after throwing 49 touchdown passes in a season, but you have to take the conditions into account. Of course Tom Brady generally plays much better in games outside in bad weather than Peyton: he plays in those conditions with much more frequency.

That knife should cut both ways, but it doesnt. Brady has a better career passer rating indoors and outdoors than manning, which is even more impressive considering that all of bradys dome games were road games (or superbowls), while most of mannings dome games were obviously home games.

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

no

 

[Tau837]

Playing in a dome has been good AND bad for Peyton. It has definitely helped when it comes to putting up astronomical regular season numbers, but on the flip side, not playing a lot of games outside in bad weather puts him at a disadvantage in such games. Look at how poorly he played in the playoff losses to the Patriots in both 2003 and 2004 (24-14 and 20-3 losses); both were in bad weather outside, conditions he is not used to playing in. It is easy to dog him for putting up only 3 points in a playoff loss after throwing 49 touchdown passes in a season, but you have to take the conditions into account. Of course Tom Brady generally plays much better in games outside in bad weather than Peyton: he plays in those conditions with much more frequency.

That knife should cut both ways, but it doesnt. Brady has a better career passer rating indoors and outdoors than manning, which is even more impressive considering that all of bradys dome games were road games (or superbowls), while most of mannings dome games were obviously home games.

Where can one find their career ratings indoors and outdoors? I can't find it at pro-football-reference, ESPN, or NFL.com.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Brady lovers just cant see that. He has been saved by his team or the major mistakes of the opposition so many times. Add to that the fact that if their kicker wasn't as clutch as it gets Brady doesn't even sniff all this success.

To that end, how would the Brady vs. Manning argument look had Vinatieri missed that kick in the snow vs. Oakland, and Vanderjagt had hit that FG against the Steelers (and the Colts went on to win in OT and won the SB)? Then again, you can never assume things play out the same way if you change one game. I would argue that if the Patriots had lost the Tuck Game, it is possible they don't have the success they did in the next three seasons, as winning a Super Bowl the way they did had to have given them a confidence and swagger that they might not have had in 2003 had they lost. Not to mention the tremendous confidence they had to pull out close games, which they did in '03 and '04. That is the point: one game or event can change everything. Give NE an average kicker back then and they'd be lucky to have won one Super Bowl. Heck, you could almost argue that the difference between Tom Brady and Philip Rivers over the years has been Brady's kicker has been money in the postseason while Rivers' has not. See what I mean?And this is not meant to take anything away from Brady, who is IMO the best QB of the 21st century thus far, and definitely in the discussion of best QB ever, but merely to show how much team success is dictated by so many little things. Heck, give the 49ers Ted freaking Ginn last week and they are probably playing in eight days! And does anyone really think Ginn is a difference maker? Of course not. But the difference between winning and losing in that game for the 49ers was their returner being hurt and the replacement guy giving up two costly fumbles on returns.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Can you justify the statement about playing weaker teams?

Watching any of the playoff games during the niners era is was pretty clear that the teams played against were of an inferior stock.

This is not only the most ignorant thing ever said on these boards, it's in the running for all of human history.

 

[bostonfred]

Brady lovers just cant see that. He has been saved by his team or the major mistakes of the opposition so many times. Add to that the fact that if their kicker wasn't as clutch as it gets Brady doesn't even sniff all this success.

To that end, how would the Brady vs. Manning argument look had Vinatieri missed that kick in the snow vs. Oakland, and Vanderjagt had hit that FG against the Steelers (and the Colts went on to win in OT and won the SB)? Then again, you can never assume things play out the same way if you change one game. I would argue that if the Patriots had lost the Tuck Game, it is possible they don't have the success they did in the next three seasons, as winning a Super Bowl the way they did had to have given them a confidence and swagger that they might not have had in 2003 had they lost. Not to mention the tremendous confidence they had to pull out close games, which they did in '03 and '04. That is the point: one game or event can change everything. Give NE an average kicker back then and they'd be lucky to have won one Super Bowl. Heck, you could almost argue that the difference between Tom Brady and Philip Rivers over the years has been Brady's kicker has been money in the postseason while Rivers' has not. See what I mean?

If the patriots had started someone better than antowain smith back then, and brady hadn't been forced to solve the raiders defense in a snowstorm, nor account for the teams lone rushing td on his own, you would probably be saying, take that running back off the team, and he wouldn't have won. But because he didn't have a running game, or any top notch receivers, you point to other things that could have gone worse for him, like if his kicker had missed a kick. The playoff system gives each qualifying team sixty minutes to exert their skill advantage over their opposition. It isnt perfect, but in any given game, the better team is more likely to win, and because of the importance of the qb position, the team with the better qb will often (but not always) be the better team. Manning, brady, montana, favre, and all the greats have had double digit playoff games with varying levels of success. all of them have had lucky and unlucky bounces. You could, of course, say that most championships were won or lost because of some lucky break. Favre won his only superbowl on the legs of desmond howard. Elway won his on the legs of a running back who was so good in those couple years that he's considered a hall of fame talent despite his lack of longevity. eli won a superbowl because an unknown receiver made the play of his career at the perfect moment, and he's going to another because another young receiver made some huge mistakes at the wrong time. Peyton made it to his first superbowl when the pariot secondary got injured, and lost his second superbowl because of an onside kick. But you could just as easily say that alex smith had 59 minutes to put the 49ers in position to make those late game mistakes moot, or that favre led the packers to a big enough lead that desmond howard was the nail in the coffin instead of a desperation comeback bid. There are so many plays that can be second guessed over the course of a players career, but there is no question that over a long enough horizon, things should even out. Brady has played in 20 playoff games, and by and large done really well in them. He's been good enough to win those games. In the games I've mentioned for manning, not only did individual mistakes cost his team wins, he wasn't even close. And when I say manning wasn't close, I mean manning, not the colts team as a whole. 4 interceptions, 0 points, 3 points all fall squarely on manning. Other players may have played a part, but manning did not do his job if he let the game get out of reach and made negative plays, or no plays, to make matters worse. The 3td/7int superbowl run is a great example of the colts winning, for the most part, in spite of manning, not because of him. By contrast, brady led the patriots to early scores against the ravens, kept the game close, and while he may have thrown picks, he never put the game out of reach for his team. That's an enormous difference, and it isn't just luck that kept the patriots in position to win.

 

[David Yudkin]

Playing in a dome has been good AND bad for Peyton. It has definitely helped when it comes to putting up astronomical regular season numbers, but on the flip side, not playing a lot of games outside in bad weather puts him at a disadvantage in such games. Look at how poorly he played in the playoff losses to the Patriots in both 2003 and 2004 (24-14 and 20-3 losses); both were in bad weather outside, conditions he is not used to playing in. It is easy to dog him for putting up only 3 points in a playoff loss after throwing 49 touchdown passes in a season, but you have to take the conditions into account. Of course Tom Brady generally plays much better in games outside in bad weather than Peyton: he plays in those conditions with much more frequency.

That knife should cut both ways, but it doesnt. Brady has a better career passer rating indoors and outdoors than manning, which is even more impressive considering that all of bradys dome games were road games (or superbowls), while most of mannings dome games were obviously home games.

Where can one find their career ratings indoors and outdoors? I can't find it at pro-football-reference, ESPN, or NFL.com.

BradyManning

 

[Ron_Mexico]

Can you justify the statement about playing weaker teams?

Watching any of the playoff games during the niners era is was pretty clear that the teams played against were of an inferior stock.

This is not only the most ignorant thing ever said on these boards, it's in the running for all of human history.

I think Patrick Ewing takes that one, when commenting on the NBA work stoppage back in '06, he came out with this gem.----------------------------------------------------------------------------"Sure NBA Players make a lot of money, but we spend a lot too." Patrick Ewing April 07, 2006

 

[General Tso]

I'm a Pats fan and though I love Brady, I don't think he's even the greatest QB today never mind all time. He's never wowed me in the big games like Montana used to. That being said, he has that opportunity next Sunday. Brady needs to step up big time if the Pats ate going to win this game. My heart is with Tom, but my money is with the Giants.

 

[Ron_Mexico]

My heart is with Tom, but my money is with the Giants.

Same here General.sitting on a ticket which will pay 35-1 if NYG wins.I'm letting it ride, as I did back in 2007.Making some cash will lessen the blow of losing the SB.Plus I'm more than happy to pay for a NE victory.

 

[dparker713]

My heart is with Tom, but my money is with the Giants.

Same here General.sitting on a ticket which will pay 35-1 if NYG wins.I'm letting it ride, as I did back in 2007.Making some cash will lessen the blow of losing the SB.Plus I'm more than happy to pay for a NE victory.

The winning play is to hedge and walk away with 17-1 in you pocket regardless of outcome.