Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Indefinite New England Patriots Thread (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter captain_amazing
- Start date
bostonfred
Footballguy
I love the move. Its a one year signing super cheap for a starting quarterback. They will have the cap to make their other moves and they can still draft a quarterback in the first but don't have to start him right away which puts Lance at the top of their wish list imo - perfect guy to learn from cam and they probably have the ammo to get him if they want.
For this year, Cam plus Rudolph and Hhenry would be a sick running attack and a much tougher passing attack to defend. With Edelman back, the O line should be much better and a two TE attack they'd just run down team's throats.
If they use their first on a quarterback prospect and their cap on the tight ends and some defensive depth i think they could be a contender.
For this year, Cam plus Rudolph and Hhenry would be a sick running attack and a much tougher passing attack to defend. With Edelman back, the O line should be much better and a two TE attack they'd just run down team's throats.
If they use their first on a quarterback prospect and their cap on the tight ends and some defensive depth i think they could be a contender.
They just said on Zola’s and Bertrand that Belichick did not go to North Dakota to observe Lance at his pro day. Phil Perry commented he doesn’t think Belichick would draft a first round qb where he doesn’t see him in person.
Also they say Newton’s incentives are 6 million. So his base is 8 million, I guess.
bostonfred
Footballguy
That might be true for quarterbacks, especially this year, I really can't say. But they have a long history of drafting guys they didn't have a player visit with. And at 15 they don't want to tip their hand because they have so little control over who falls to them or even falls to a point where they can move up to get them
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Do you really think they will sign Rudolph and Hunter? And last I saw, Edelman is nowhere close to playing and is not even sure he will be able to play in 2021. I am not convinced he will even be on the team (unless it is clear he can play close to the start of the season and be close to 100%),
Anarchy99
Footballguy
If they want a QB in the draft, they will likely have to trade up to get one. Lots of people predicting 5 QBs getting drafted in the first 8-12 picks.
Boston
Footballguy
Agreed...I pray to God they do but at #15 there are no guarantees...if they bring back this debacle of a QB without the heir apparent in place this year it will be the worst move in the BB era...I don’t have one positive thing to say about this move...none, zero, nada...
Anarchy99
Footballguy
BB must see things that we don't and Cam must command a ton of respect in the locker room. I saw enough of him last year to conclude that he is not the answer. IMO, he looked lost at times, held onto the ball to long, made some really bad decisions at absolutely the worst times, and if nothing else couldn't throw the ball very well.
As I mentioned the other day, I agree with all the reasons / explanations / excuses as to why things didn't work out last year. However, I differ in the conclusion that Cam and BB appear ready to make (that they would have won if not for the issues). Even with a lot more time to work on the playbook and with added practice time, I don't see Cam as the solution (or even a good bridge guy).
Bringing back Cam likely means Stidham will not ever get a chance in NE and they likely will move on from him in short order. Hopefully they can work on getting upgrades at the skill positions. I actually thought that rounding out the team and then getting a long-term solution at QB made more sense to me. so I can't really bash them too much if that is the direction they decide to go in. But if the only legit starting option is Cam and they draft ANOTHER developmental mid- to late- round prospect, then it's going to be another long season.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I hadn't heard this. Haven't been following it that closely but bummed to hear it.
I do think they are the favorites to get Rudolph. They have the cap to put a strong bid in for Henry but so do the Jags. If they could get both they'd be awfully difficult to defend, and their savings at qb makes it possible. Would be fun to watch
Last edited by a moderator:
bostonfred
Footballguy
Same kind of thing was predicted in 2018 and it went baker 1, Darnold 3, Allen 8, rosen 10 and Lamar Jackson slipped to 32. Maybe all the qb needy teams do take guys they like, or maybe a guy like Lance slides because he's raw. It's all speculation until draft day.
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't see how a terrible QB throwing to one mediocre and one decent TE would be awfully difficult to defend (or fun to watch). This isn't Brady to Gronk and Hernandez, not by a long shot.
Boston
Footballguy
This...1000 times this...it is not Mahomes or Rodgers raising the game of their WRs...CaM could be playing with vintage Moss, TO and Tony Gonzalez and he still would not be able to get it done...he was a great QB in his day but he is shot, there is no more gas left in the tank.
Boston
Footballguy
I have not felt this way since the year Parcells kept playing Marion Butts even though he was averaging 2.9 YPC...I am all in on the rookie part and have been from the beginning and due to that they need to have a vet in place to start while the rookie ramps up or in a worst case scenario the draft does not fall their way...that being said there is not an option out there be it Alex Smith, Brissett, Trubisky, Mariota or Minshew that I would not rather have one million times more than Cam.
You just know the Pats are going to trade up on draft day and than not take a QB...if you are gonna bring back Cam than you gotta go the distance if you are gonna drive the fans crazy...by the way, I can not remember the last time I heard this much vitriol on sports-radio...this is not playing well at all.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
If this turns out to be the hill that BB is going to defend and die on, if he were able to win without a legit QB and won WITH CAM, that would be the biggest feather of them all in his cap. However, that also appears to take that hill to 10,000 feet above Mount Everest in terms of how high a mountain they need to climb.
We need to see the Cam contract fine print to see what it will actually cost them and if they have outs. If it is an $8 million deal (with $6 million incentives he'll never see) with only a $500,000 signing bonus and they can move on from him before Opening Day that's different than some alternatives.
If (and trust me, that is a GIGANTIC if) Bill can resurrect Newton into a productive QB and get the team on the right path and win, that would be be his Magnum Opus. But that's not going to happen. Let's see who they have after the draft before we pass judgment. Cam as a mentor to a stud rookie is a whole 'nother scenario than Cam as the clear and only starter on the roster.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Mike Garafolo tweeted . . .
Cam Newton's contract with the #Patriots has a $5 million base value, according to sources: $2m signing bonus $1.5m base salary (guaranteed) $1.5m total in per-game roster bonuses The rest ($9m) is in incentives for playoffs, Pro Bowl, All-Pro, MVP, Super Bowl MVP, etc.
Cam Newton's contract with the #Patriots has a $5 million base value, according to sources: $2m signing bonus $1.5m base salary (guaranteed) $1.5m total in per-game roster bonuses The rest ($9m) is in incentives for playoffs, Pro Bowl, All-Pro, MVP, Super Bowl MVP, etc.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Per patscap . . . Because Cam Newton’s cap number of $4,906,250 displaces a player with a $780,000 salary from the Top 51 list the Patriots lost $4,126,250 in cap space after the Newton signing.
Without modifying any existing contracts, they have $60 million in cap space after this.
Without modifying any existing contracts, they have $60 million in cap space after this.
Last edited by a moderator:
That isn’t that bad to get out from under. Likely this is back up money and he would not be cut, but benched if performance is poor. Bridge QB contract is how a lot of tv show and talk radio guys are viewing it.
Boston
Footballguy
The only thing that makes this palatable is a stud rookie (unless something unforeseen with a veteran shakes out)...I just hate the fact that every time he is on the field the offense will be held hostage by his limitations...I just don't see any upside to this move...I would have far preferred trading for someone like Minshew...if you had him and a rookie you have two chances of solving this position but with Newton there is no chance he can be your quarterback of the future or you can develop offensive players if he is playing so why even invest time and money in him...draft day is gonna be interesting because if they don't end up with one of those top 5 QBs there is going to be a fan mutiny.Anarchy99 said:
Boston
Footballguy
Rodney Harrison is not a fan of this either:
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/rodney-harrison-has-strong-take-patriots-reportedly-re-signing-cam-newton
Harrison made similar comments last month to our Patriots insider Tom E. Curran during an episode of the Patriots Talk Podcast. Harrison explained why he thought another year of Newton in New England would be a "terrible" mistake by Patriots head coach Bill Belichick.
"That would be the worst decision [Belichick] has ever made," Harrison told Curran. "Because now you're not being fair to your team. When I saw what I saw with Cam, every time I saw Cam pretty much I was hurt. Because I was a guy that believed in Cam, and when you see him drop back and he continues to throw the ball into the ground, throw it five feet or five yards above somebody else, you're like 'What are you doing, Cam?' ...
"You have to find a quarterback. It would be a terrible mistake for Bill Belichick to bring Cam back because Cam can't play football anymore. He just can't play quarterback in the National Football League."
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/rodney-harrison-has-strong-take-patriots-reportedly-re-signing-cam-newton
Harrison made similar comments last month to our Patriots insider Tom E. Curran during an episode of the Patriots Talk Podcast. Harrison explained why he thought another year of Newton in New England would be a "terrible" mistake by Patriots head coach Bill Belichick.
"That would be the worst decision [Belichick] has ever made," Harrison told Curran. "Because now you're not being fair to your team. When I saw what I saw with Cam, every time I saw Cam pretty much I was hurt. Because I was a guy that believed in Cam, and when you see him drop back and he continues to throw the ball into the ground, throw it five feet or five yards above somebody else, you're like 'What are you doing, Cam?' ...
"You have to find a quarterback. It would be a terrible mistake for Bill Belichick to bring Cam back because Cam can't play football anymore. He just can't play quarterback in the National Football League."
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Notwithstanding that Anarchy has forgotten more about the Pats than I will ever know, I'm with you.bostonfred said:
The move allows concentration on other areas of need.
Pats wer 7-9 with a verteran QB picked up in July with 8 opt outs on top of FA departures. Cam was much better before he got Covid. I think they see last year as Cam's floor.
The only way this doesn't make sense is if the receivers are better than what I think I saw last year. Time will tell. I'll trust BB.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
My issue with Cam last year is they played a style that really didn’t allow much margin for error in order to win. Newton played in 15 games and had less than 200 passing yards in 10 of them (including 4 games with less than 100 passing yards). I don’t know if they had him try to play with training wheels on because he didn’t know enough of the offense (or didn’t trust him enough).
I just remember too many negative plays and poor passes, many times with passes short hopping his receivers or otherwise missing some guys that were wide open. That makes me question if he was hurt and had shoulder problems. A third of his starts he had passer ratings in the 50’s or worse.
I have to think they are planning to move up in the draft to take their heir apparent. I don’t see Cam as the QB of the future. I guess a different way to look at is if Cam hits his incentives, then NE had to have a really good season. I still think he will be a bridge guy until PLAYER SOON TO BE DRAFTED is ready.
As I mentioned yesterday, Bill knows a million times more than any of us do, and maybe he’s seen evidence that Cam can still be productive. Who knows . . . maybe they planned on Cam coming back since the season ended and he has been doing his homework on the playbook for the past 3 months. Maybe BB gets the sense that with time Cam can actually be all he can be and then some.
But I think that is a reach. So I am sticking with the temporary starter and mentor for the new guy plan. Of course, BB will now trade back three times and take defensive players with their first 4 picks. And then sign three safeties and two RB in free agency.
I just remember too many negative plays and poor passes, many times with passes short hopping his receivers or otherwise missing some guys that were wide open. That makes me question if he was hurt and had shoulder problems. A third of his starts he had passer ratings in the 50’s or worse.
I have to think they are planning to move up in the draft to take their heir apparent. I don’t see Cam as the QB of the future. I guess a different way to look at is if Cam hits his incentives, then NE had to have a really good season. I still think he will be a bridge guy until PLAYER SOON TO BE DRAFTED is ready.
As I mentioned yesterday, Bill knows a million times more than any of us do, and maybe he’s seen evidence that Cam can still be productive. Who knows . . . maybe they planned on Cam coming back since the season ended and he has been doing his homework on the playbook for the past 3 months. Maybe BB gets the sense that with time Cam can actually be all he can be and then some.
But I think that is a reach. So I am sticking with the temporary starter and mentor for the new guy plan. Of course, BB will now trade back three times and take defensive players with their first 4 picks. And then sign three safeties and two RB in free agency.
Plus, I think last year before the opt outs Pats had 3 million in cap space. So they couldn’t prepare well using free agency. Then after opt outs there wasn’t much to add so Belichick rolled the money into this year. It has been said that there will be a lot of cuts coming up. So having the extra money should help them build as good or better starting line up and better depth. Maybe Belichick not traveling to see Lance is more about getting prepared for the tampering period starting Monday. Let’s hope anyways.
This is so true. Every year I watch first round and usually it ends with Pats not taking a pick it seems. Then when they do there are some real douzies that the analysts all scratch heads at.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I'm with you about minshew but you not only have to trade something for minshew, you have to get Jacksonville to trade him before the qb carousel is getting thin and that means over paying because right now they have no incentive to sell him cheap. Otherwise, what will end up happening is that some teams will be stuck at qb, Jacksonville will try to get maximum value for him, and they'll have the luxury to decide whether to pay a 25 year old backup with nfl experience under a million dollars while they wait for a better offer. So as much as I like the player and the contract, I'm not sure that they can trade for him right now.
They also can't draft someone yet, obviously.
So now the pats have Newton for cheap money on a one year deal with no cap hit next year, and they still have options. Hoyer got 5 million a year from the Texans and 4 million a year from the colts, so 5 million for newton isn't outrageous. If they are able to move up and get a quarterback they like, or better yet one slides to them, they have the luxury to let him sit behind Newton and learn from one of the best mobile quarterbacks of all time. And all but one of the qbs in this class are mobile so that's a big plus. It would also mean that they don't have to change the offense when/if they switch to the young guy, whether that's mid season or during next year's off season. Which means they could rebuild. It's much harder to rebuild when you're switching from a mobile qb to a statue, a power vs zone blocking system, etc etc.
Do I consider the position set in stone? Nope. Do I like the move? Yup.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I know BB likes QBs to really absorb the playbook, so bringing in another QB starting from scratch again probably didn’t seem like a wise move (unless it was Jimmy G). So how would people feel if they roll with Cam and Stidham and DON’T add anyone else at QB (say they keep their practice squad QBs)?
I probably wouldn’t love it, but I would have to see what the rest of the team looks like.
So, we haven’t really had a look at what Stidham can do over a series of games. It doesn’t seem like coaching staff have a lot of confidence though since Stidham wasn’t able to get any games started last season despite the play of Newton. So I wouldn’t be happy unless they add another QB. I’d like it to be through draft at that 15th of the first. Not sure who will be there. If nothing falls to them then It would be disappointing.
Boston
Footballguy
I think it would be time to question whether BB was qualified to be a GM anymore (and I am serious).
Boston
Footballguy
Another thing about Cam...his mobility right now is over-rated...he now runs like a fullback and it was easy to see he was not a huge fan of contact...so while he does bring a nice dynamic to the short-yardage game defenses are not worried he is gonna rip off a long one so his running does not really pressure defenses, especially since his passing his subpar...also, his mobility/awareness within the pocket is very subpar.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I am not sure about the no contact part. I think NE made it a point of emphasis that he should not be going crazy trying to get extra yards and made it a point of emphasis NOT to take much contact. So I don’t think that attribute is a bad thing. What I didn’t like is they seemed to really only want him to run in designed runs. Basically, they didn’t really let Cam be Cam (at least the younger version). That being said, I didn’t love him as a passer. Maybe that’s from watching Brady all those years. Personally, I think there is more utility to a QB that can throw for 300 yards consistently than run for 50 yards.
Boston
Footballguy
I disagree but regardless of who is right it is the same result...he is far less of a threat with his legs.
Last edited by a moderator:
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I see that after Brady AND Belichick are BOTH gone.
In 2021 I see a Patriots Bucs superbowl with Cam winning MVP.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
There WERE times where this was true. And there were games early in the season before he got covid and lost edelman where this was not true. And he broke the record for QB rushing TDs. I'm not sure what will happen, but it will be interesting to see "where we go from here.".
After the comp picks were added the other day here is the set of Patriots draft picks...
1st Round-15th overall
2nd Round-46th overall
3rd Round -96th overall
4th Round-121st overall
4th Round-139th overall
5th Round -159th overall
6th Round-195th overall
6th Round-197th overall
7th Round-243 overall
1st Round-15th overall
2nd Round-46th overall
3rd Round -96th overall
4th Round-121st overall
4th Round-139th overall
5th Round -159th overall
6th Round-195th overall
6th Round-197th overall
7th Round-243 overall
DropKick
Footballguy
Only saw a hand-full of their games last year and suspect the Patriots understand the impact COVID had on him.
I could see his role ranging from a veteran backup to a bridge QB, or a serviceable NFL starter. It will be interesting to see if and when they address the position in the draft.
As for where they go... it's always fascinating to follow Belichick.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Boston
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
In moving from Cannon to Brown, it will cost them roughly $4 million more against the cap. They moved up 11 picks in the 4th, 5th, and 6th rounds. And they lost a 5th and gained a 7th in the Brown deal. They were most likely going to cut Cannon, so the pick upgrades were a bonus.
According to my calculations, based on trade value chart, the Patriots gained the equivalent of a end of round 6 draft pick. And evidently lost 4 million in cap space. Counting both moves.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
With NE currently having a lot of cap room and with multiple players only signed through this season, Spotrac has the Pats with $211 million in cap space for 2022. A chunk of that is the $60+ million they haven’t used this year yet, but the point is they can create almost an entirely different team next year.
Boston
Footballguy
Will be a great time to be a free agent ace special teams player because BB will be calling...
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I remember being mortified when Trent Brown left for SF. Dude blocks out the sun. Huge upgrade over Cannon in a year where money is not an issue, and the 6th round pick is just icing.Blackbear said:
Boston
Footballguy
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/03/15/report-patriots-reopen-lines-of-communication-with-joe-thuney/
This is very interesting...if he were to resign it would have some type of domino effect...would Onwenu move to RT? Would Wynn be the odd man out? if they sign Thuney would they then invest money in Andrews and if they don't who plays center? Thuney has been an emergency C but they wouldn't give him a big contract then move his position, would they? I have viewed Thuney leaving as a done deal (and still kind of do) but have zero issues re-signing him...it would be real interesting to see how it effects the rest of the line if he surprises and stays.
This is very interesting...if he were to resign it would have some type of domino effect...would Onwenu move to RT? Would Wynn be the odd man out? if they sign Thuney would they then invest money in Andrews and if they don't who plays center? Thuney has been an emergency C but they wouldn't give him a big contract then move his position, would they? I have viewed Thuney leaving as a done deal (and still kind of do) but have zero issues re-signing him...it would be real interesting to see how it effects the rest of the line if he surprises and stays.
Onwenu played both guards and right tackle last season. So he is movable. I think if Thuney stays then you could leave Onwenu at right tackle and leave Thuney at left guard. Though you could easily swap the two if Onwenu isn’t as good in pass protection. He played guard mostly in college so guard may be where he shines brightest. This means Brown at left tackle and Mason stays at right guard. Then you try keep Andrews or draft a center. That Meinerz is a projected second round interior lineman that looks like a beast. Wynn is a wildcard. It is hard for me to figure out his role because he is injured so much. He may not be capable of playing a full season without injury. If you don’t resign Thuney I guess Wynn is your tackle and Onwenu is your left guard.
It is looking like a top oline as long as no injuries.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I think we will start to see some players considering staying on their teams, probably more than usual. Aaron Jones of GB said he found that a lot of teams didn't have money to spend (or weren't looking to break the bank for a RB) and opted to take what the Packers offered. The Jets have been linked to Thuney, but a lot depends on what another team is willing to pay him. What I find interesting is how places describe Thuney . . . some have called him an above average guard with iron man availability.
I also have seen a couple of crazy mocks where the Pats make a ton of trades . . . including moving Shaq Mason. I am sure they would want Andrews back (and his health issues might scare other teams away). Plus Ted Karras is a free agent again.
I suppose for me it depends what they would have to pay Thuney to stick around. If the choice is a premium WR or TE or Thuney, then it's hate to see you go for Thuney. Thuney's production took a hit last year according to PFF. I looked up most of the guards from last year and here's how PFF rated them . . .
Wyatt Teller 92.9
Zack Martin 91.3
Ali Marpet 86.7
Quentin Nelson 86.2
Shaq Mason 85.4
Joe Bitonio 84.6
Michael Onwenu 84.3
Brandon Scherff 84.1
Lane Taylor 81.6
Richie Incognito 81.4
Laken Tomlinson 78.8
Chris Lindstrom 77.1
Cody Whitehair 76.3
Joe Thuney 74.2
Conor Williams 70.8
Rodger Saffold 70.2
Thuney was a Top 15 guard last year, which makes him roughly one of the Top 25% of 64 starters in the league. Is that worth shelling out $12-15 million a year (if not more)? Like I mentioned earlier, to me it depends on what other sports they would have to allocate fewer dollars. IMO, the line is probably good enough on its own and that money would probably be better spent elsewhere, but I am a few rings behind BB so what do I know.
Bertrand and Zo are saying there isn’t much to this rumor of keeping Thuney. They believe Pats botched keeping him when they decided not to give him a contract last year and franchised him.