greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
For all the ‘Brady vs Belichick’ discussion, and all the OC / DC churn, I feel like maybe Scar, Ernie Adams and Fears were all super important as well to the long term success of the offense/ team.
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Indefinite New England Patriots Thread (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter captain_amazing
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Boston
Footballguy
Matt Patricia to the Eagles. And there was much rejoicing.
Best thing to happen to the Pats since TB12 left...if we add in a 7th round pick can they take Joe Judge as well?
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
Feels like a cloud lifted. Kendrick Bourne outta the doghouse too
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Apparently I'm a Belichick fanatic, because I get livid when I read posts like this. NE was an entirely irrelevant franchise before BB, and now the fan base and local media want to give all the credit to TB12 and treat the greatest defensive mind in the history of the NFL like he's Marvin Freaking Lewis.
/rant
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
I always liked Bourne as a player and never understood why he was not more involved.Feels like a cloud lifted. Kendrick Bourne outta the doghouse too
Anarchy99
Footballguy
There isn't a lot to have to understand. Bourne and Patricia didn't get along, and KB ended up in the doghouse. Bourne called out Patricia for not knowing the offense he was running, not running it properly, and essentially said his play calling didn't make sense.I always liked Bourne as a player and never understood why he was not more involved.Feels like a cloud lifted. Kendrick Bourne outta the doghouse too
Boston
Footballguy
Sorry, but not buying it…no one respects him more than me as he is absolutely the best ever but I will never be totally in the bag and simply say whatever he does is ok because of past success…he s not cutting it right now and unless he stops pretending he can still build a team now the way he did with TB12 he will be nothing more than average which is what he has been the past three years with another year of the same on the horizon.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Based on NE offensive production last year (26th in yards per game) I would side with Bourne on that one. Hopefully a clean slate is given as I have always thought he was a good contributor with upside.There isn't a lot to have to understand. Bourne and Patricia didn't get along, and KB ended up in the doghouse. Bourne called out Patricia for not knowing the offense he was running, not running it properly, and essentially said his play calling didn't make sense.I always liked Bourne as a player and never understood why he was not more involved.Feels like a cloud lifted. Kendrick Bourne outta the doghouse too
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The biggest issue for BB has nothing to do with him or his roster. Many other AFC teams have way better QBs and rosters than they did when TB was around. There were three long-term QB options in the conference back then: Peyton, Big Ben, and Rivers. The rest of the QB talent had some good years, but overall, the talent level wasn't great. Now there is Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Jackson, Watson, Lawrence, and possibly Rodgers. Not all of those guys are proven winners, but they can all impact a game and are hard to defend. There's also Wilson (if DEN can get their act together), Jimmy G., and Tua (if healthy). That's a really strong crop of QBs for one conference.
I randomly selected the 2010 season to illustrate my point. The Pats went 14-2 that year in the regular season before losing to the Jets in the first round of the playoffs. They played the Big 3 I just mentioned that season (Peyton, Ben, and Rivers). Here were the other QBs they beat: Carson Palmer, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Chad Henne, Joe Flacco, Tarvaris Jackson, Mark Sanchez (butt fumble game), Shawn Hill, Jay Cutler, and Matt Flynn. They lost to Sanchez twice that year and their other loss was to Colt McCoy. That is far from a murderer's row of elite QB talent.
Yes, I agree, there are things BB has done that have hurt the team a lot more then helped it, and his roster construction and tactical strategy is likely outdated and a part of the problem. But there is no denying that there are many other teams that are way more talented than they used to be.
Another issue as I see it is the mix of players they have had recently don't seem to fit and / or the buy-in from the players isn't there like it used to be. I think they have some talented players, but they collectively seem to underperform. They also seem to play small when they need a big play. Offensively, that's where Brady covered up a lot of flaws.
Even with all their warts and blemishes, they were very close to being an 11- or 12-win team last year. They had games against LV and CIN all but won, they had a huge call go against them against MIN, and if Jones didn't get hurt against GB they most likely would have won against the Packers. That still wouldn't make them a good team (and they would have been smoked in the playoffs). But they weren't that far off from having a much better record and making the playoffs. But in NE, either you win a title or the season was a failure, so having an inflated record and getting bounced in the playoffs wouldn't make that much difference.
If not BB, then who? I assume it would be Mayo. But I could easily see NE going back to the old days and winning 3, 4, 5 games a year for multiple years in a row. I could envision them moving on from Mayo before he ever had a winning season. Obviously, we can only guess what would happen post-BB, but IMO the team as currently constructed would win less than they do now with Bill.
It's a good hypothetical to evaluate: whether their path to being a contender again is better w/ or w/o BB. Either way, the road to recovery will start with getting better production from the QB position. Are they more likely to get that with or without Bill there? Once Bill is gone, I would expect the defense will slide, which is why I think they will struggle a lot once Bill hangs 'em up.
Boston
Footballguy
The biggest issue is 100% the roster…it is mediocre and falling further behind the other AFC teams each year…the Issue with BB is not his coaching as he still as good as you get although the team is as undisciplined as it ever has been in his tenure and his staff is pretty underwhelming…the issue is BB the GM…he has built an average team and they have a real long way to go before they are a legit contender and I just don’t see what the path to getting there is with how they are currently operating…this year is the big one because if you don’t see improvements do you realLu want him to be in charge of that cap space next off-season and continue with the same old same old…if they screw-up next off-season it may be years until they recover regardless of who is coaching them.
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
How does a guy go from 55/800/5 on 70 targets with 12/125 on the ground (Three top 10 finishes, 7 top 40) to 35/434/1 on 48 targets and 6/39 on the ground with ONE top 40 game. In his age 26/27 season. In an offense in desperate need of playmakers. 14.5 yards per reception in 2021. I was actively pursuing him in best ball as a late round guy I liked.Based on NE offensive production last year (26th in yards per game) I would side with Bourne on that one. Hopefully a clean slate is given as I have always thought he was a good contributor with upside.There isn't a lot to have to understand. Bourne and Patricia didn't get along, and KB ended up in the doghouse. Bourne called out Patricia for not knowing the offense he was running, not running it properly, and essentially said his play calling didn't make sense.I always liked Bourne as a player and never understood why he was not more involved.Feels like a cloud lifted. Kendrick Bourne outta the doghouse too
Matt P, what a sick joke that guy is. The fact that his incompetence strained important relationships that are key to the success and future of the organization will always bother me. BB clearly stuck to "his guy" in Patricia for far too long and now guys like Bourne and Jones are no longer viewed as who they would be if there'd been a competent OC last year. That's what I believe anyway.
All this rumor mill bs about Jones being not the guy. I attribute most of that to his (admittedly juvenile) response to being stuck working with this clown. To be completely transparent, I am still pretty pissed at BB for letting Patricia and Judge take a dump on the team for a whole year. All the hope we had in 2021 is flushed. So thanks Bill for the years of excellence but the blame for this debacle lies at your feet.
The fact that Bill still seems irked at how Jones reacted still sticks in my craw. He could have handled it better but sheesh.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Not sure if we are aligned or not on this. I would suggest other than QB, the talent level on the NE roster isn't that much worse than it was for many years. They have talented players, but they aren't as productive, they make way more mental mistakes, and they aren't always on the same page. Bottom line, the execution hasn't been great. That's more of a coaching problem than a GM problem.
So, sure, I agree other teams now have more talent . . . but other team's rosters have nothing to do with BB. NE won for years with Brady and a handful of very good players, but a lot of decent starters and above average role players. For argument's sake, call them a B+ roster with an A QB on average over the Brady years. BB then coached up players to perform better, and they were able to beat teams that were more talented. IMO, now maybe they have a B level roster with a B- QB, but other teams have A-/B+ level rosters with A/A- level quarterbacks.
Comparatively speaking, NE's roster is now worse than other teams . . . but I don't think they are light years behind the talent level they rostered for many years when they had Brady. Now their B level team is not getting a letter grade coaching improvement like they used to. So I would suggest a less talented roster compared to other teams and no performance boost from good coaching = average results. Put them in the AFC South of NFC South and they'd still have a good record. But the AFC East these days is way tougher than ever.
Last year, they clearly had a pooch skrew with the offensive coaching staff. Sure, I get they got Patricia and Judge to coach for free. But does the Kraft Group, worth $8 billion, really need to worry about getting coaches on the cheap?
Bottom line, other teams in the AFC are better now. The Pats whiffed on a bunch of draft picks and free agents, and IMO, some of the younger guys are headed in the right direction. I still think they are better off with Bill, as I would expect something similar would happen after TB left. At the time, the thought was NE could just plug and play another QB and keep marching on. Obviously, it didn't play out that way. NE dropped off by 3-4 games without Brady. My fear is that the same thing will happen again without BB (if he left soon). They could drop another 3-4 wins a year and would be a 4-or 5-win team. If people think that is a better option than rolling with BB, so be it.
Boston
Footballguy
The talent was a lot better during the TB12 years…in the post Willie/Bruschi era you had players like Gronk, Edelman, Hightower, James White, Chandler Jones, Revis, McCourty (in his prime), Thuney, Trey Flowers, Gilmore, Chung, Ninkovich, Logan Ryan, Solder, Vollmer, Wilfork, Mayo, Mankins and even James Develin…sure you also had the solid middle -class but the top of the roster was easily better than what they are rolling out now and that was with Brady who gave you the best player in the game…now there is no more Brady and outside of Judon and Stevenson and maybe Onewu, Duggar and possibly Uche what do you really have…IMO a below average roster that with many other Coaches would be about a 5 win….right now BB the GM is failing BB the HC and while he had a great formula for 20 years you no longer have the advantage of the greatest player of all time and the refusal to change how you build a roster has lead them to where they are now which is mediocre with far more downside than upside for the foreseeable future.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Yes, the names were bigger back in the day, but that doesn't necessarily mean the on-field production was better. Using PFF scores, here were the high season scores for NE players post-Brady (ie 2020 or later).
Scores of 80+: Rhamondre Stevenson, Damien Harris, Ja'Whaun Bentley, Michael Owenu, Adrian Phillips, J.C. Jackson, Jonathan Jones, Isaiah Wynn, Josh Uche
Scores of 75+: Trent Brown, Mac Jones, David Andrews, Jakobi Meyers, Kendrick Bourne, Kyle Dugger, Jabrill Peppers, Mack Wilson
Scores of 70+: Devante Parker, Hunter Henry, Devin McCourty, Matthew Judon, Deatrich Wise, Jahlani Tavai, Ted Karras
Scores of 60+: Myles Bryant, Devon Godchaux, Lawrence Guy, Marcus Jones, Anfernee Jennings, Jalen Mills, Christian Barmore
Now let's look at the 2018 team that won the SB:
Scores of 90+: Brady, Gilmore, Flowers
Scores of 80+: Mason, Guy
Scores of 75+: Thuney, Edelman, Michel, DMcCourty, JMcCourty
Scores of 70+: Andrews, Gronk, Cannon, White, Gordon, Patterson, Karras, J.C. Jackson, Shelton, Clayborn
Scores of 60+: Trent Brown, Dorsett, Burkhead, Van Noy, Chung, Hightower, Harmon, Jonathan Jones, Roberts, Simon
Scores of 50+: Hogan, Develin, Dwayne Allen, Waddle, Malcom Brown, Adrian Butler
Congrats to the 2018 Patriots. They won the Super Bowl. IMO, they had 5 really good player performances that year, a few above average years, but plenty of below average production. I know people won't believe it, but Edleman only had one year rated demonstratively better than Meyers past three years, Bourne's initial year in NE, or Parker last year.
Again, IMO, with some of the performance scores NE players earned the past few seasons, they should have done better and won more games. No, they didn't have years where players scored in the 90's like Brady, Moss, Welker used to. But I am not convinced that the NE roster only has average talent and they are getting lapped by many other teams.
Boston
Footballguy
We are going to have to agree to disagree…it is a flawed team…the QB is an unknown, the O line is average and one Trent Brown injury or bad mood from being a disaster with no tackles, TE is ok if Gesicki can play on his one year deal, the WRs do not scare anyone and after Stevenson RB is a big question mark…there are some solid pieces on D but they are thin at CB even if Jack Jones grows up which is not a sure thing, Safety is ok but outside of Duggar there is no upside, LB is subpar, the edge is a bright spot with Judon and Uche and the line is decent with a chance to be better if Barmore plays better than last year…overall the team has a minimal amount of playmakers that other teams have to account for…this team is absolutely not in the top half of talent in the NFL and there is a reason expectations are so low for them…they just are not that good and I don’t see what their plan is to get out of being the average, boring, undisciplined team that they have become.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
I agree that on the surface, past RS there are question marks at RB. But IMO it doesn't really mean much. Here is the team RB production each year for all 23 seasons BB has coached in NE. Combined YFS and total TD.
Code:
2022 2231 11
2021 2641 26
2020 2417 14
2019 2694 20
2018 2645 23
2017 2664 25
2016 2330 23
2015 2344 20
2014 2122 16
2013 2704 21
2012 2748 25
2011 1936 14
2010 2437 19
2009 2402 18
2008 2731 22
2007 2278 12
2006 2573 24
2005 2149 16
2004 2669 17
2003 2189 09
2002 2201 13
2001 2338 20
2000 1863 10That's about as consistent as you can get. Over 2,000 YFS 21 times out of 23 seasons and double digit TD in 22 of them. So far, it hasn't made any difference who was on the roster, injuries, vets, rookies, free agents, guys called up from the practice squad, big money guys or low dollar guys. The numbers have been very similar.
As we have discussed previously, things still aren't all rainbows and unicorns. Over the years, they have often telegraphed their play calls based on the RB in the game, and they are probably too reliant on the running game in today's NFL where many teams get chunk plays and have two minute length of the field drives. BB's philosophy has always been winning with pitching and defense, keeping the score down, and playing keep away by running the ball against some of the higher octane offensive teams.
I would tend to agree that NE should pivot to having a more high flying offense that at the very least has some bigger play makers that strike fear in the hearts of defensive coordinators. Last year was about as far as you could get from that.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
So Hopkins, then? I'm guessing that doesn't work since BoB traded him away from Houston.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Hopkins seemingly indicated NE was not one of his preferred destinations. IIRC, he liked the idea of BUF or KC.
Boston
Footballguy
Between the Pats not being very good, having a dicey QB situation and the BoB/Hopkins history I would say there is almost no chance he ends up in Foxboro...overall the days of the Pats being a preferred landing spot for a veteran or getting one to come at a discount are over...until they become a legit contender again the only way they will land a player like that is if thy outbid everyone else....or thru the draft /trade (i.e. they are just another team right now).
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Remaining picks....need oline, wr, and edge rush....
(2) 46
(3) 76
(4) 107, 117, 120 (from Pitt), 135
(5) -
(6) 184, 187, 192, 210
(7) 245
(2) 46
(3) 76
(4) 107, 117, 120 (from Pitt), 135
(5) -
(6) 184, 187, 192, 210
(7) 245
Boston
Footballguy
Would really like to see them use those extra #4's and #6's to move up in the second and third and get some legit players...Tackle has to be addressed as they have a ton of exposure there....would like to see a quality RB with big play ability added at some point as well unless they are really sold on Strong and Harris...would love Spears and Deuce Vaughn wouldn't bother me either (a trade for Swift wouldn't either)...Gonzalez falling to them at 17 worked out very well...if Jack Jones can settle down and be relied on they could have a nice group of young CBs in Gonzalez, Jack and Marcus Jones to go along with Jonathan Jones...all that being said the O needs to be addressed or this team will be stuck in the mud and not be able to compete with the good teams...that is only going to happen by beefing up the line and adding another playmaker or two...good start so far...really wanted a tackle but you can't argue with how it played out last night.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I'm not really concerned about the RB group. As I already posted, they always get very good total production from their RBs year after year. For those concerned about Strong or Harris, here are how guys have done in Year 2 in NE:
Rhamondre Stevenson - 1461 YFS / 6 TD
Damien Harris - 743 / 2 (Can Newton season)
Sony Michel - 1006 / 7
James White - 466 / 6
Shane Vereen - 400 / 4 (same draft as Ridley)
Stevan Ridley - 1314 / 12
Laurence Maroney - 951 / 6
Kevin Faulk - 1035 / 5
Pretty much every back they've taken (that weren't late round draft picks) has made big strides and contributions in their second season in NE. NE will still probably draft another back with third down back potential or a developmental guy. They also have J.J. Taylor, Ty Montgomery, and James Robinson (for now) as additional depth pieces. Bottom line, I don't think their running back position group is one that needs much tinkering (or is one for people to worry much about).
Rhamondre Stevenson - 1461 YFS / 6 TD
Damien Harris - 743 / 2 (Can Newton season)
Sony Michel - 1006 / 7
James White - 466 / 6
Shane Vereen - 400 / 4 (same draft as Ridley)
Stevan Ridley - 1314 / 12
Laurence Maroney - 951 / 6
Kevin Faulk - 1035 / 5
Pretty much every back they've taken (that weren't late round draft picks) has made big strides and contributions in their second season in NE. NE will still probably draft another back with third down back potential or a developmental guy. They also have J.J. Taylor, Ty Montgomery, and James Robinson (for now) as additional depth pieces. Bottom line, I don't think their running back position group is one that needs much tinkering (or is one for people to worry much about).
Boston
Footballguy
I am going to disagree with this all day long...Brady is no longer there so any stats during his era don't count anymore...right now they are a low octane offense that has a big time RB in Stevenson (and no more Damien Harris)...if they lose him they could be in big trouble...now, if they are totally sold on Strong and Harris that could change things but if Stevenson goes down and they aren't legit an offense that is already easy to plan for gets even easier...also, this O is very limited in the playmaking area and it may be much easier to find a playmaker in the draft at RB than the other skill positions.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Feel free to have any opinion you want. No one knows or can fully predict the future. The 2023 season has nothing to do with any other season. BB would be the first to tell people that.
The Patriots under BB have now played 88 games without Tom Brady at QB (2000, 2008, 2020, 2021, 2022 . . . with a couple of games in 2001 and 4 games when Brady was suspended in 2016). Their QBs in those games were Bledsoe, Cassel, Garoppolo, Brissett, Newton, Hoyer, Jones, and Zappe. There were all sorts of different RBs in that 23-year stretch. In those 88 games (more than 5 seasons worth), the RBs averaged 143.65 YFS and 1 TD per game. Over a 17-game season, that works out to an average of 2,442 YFS and 17 TD per season. That's playing WITHOUT Brady. Sure, that's all in the past. Those were different players on different teams. Does that really tell us anything? Maybe, maybe not.
The biggest offseason move NE made was pivoting from Matt Patricia to Bill O'Brien at OC. NE saw their scoring total drop by 98 points after McDaniels left. IMO, adding O'Brien alone . . . an actual NFL-level offensive coordinator with 10 years of play calling experience in the pros, could get them close to where they were scoring wise in 2021. That could get them almost a TD per game boost compared to last season. Mac isn't Burrow or Mahomes, but with an actual OC, heading into Year 3, I would suggest Jones could flirt with 4K passing yards and 25 TD (that's only 200 yards and 3 TD more than his rookie season).
In the 50 games since Brady left, the Pats have averaged 20 ppg allowed. They have two guys in Judon and Uche that can get after the QB (for years people said NE couldn't pressure or get to QBs). Their CB grouping of Gonzalez, the 3 Joneses, and Bryant are young and relatively fast. Even without McCourty, the safety group with Dugger, Phillips, Peppers, and Mills is still a strong unit. In a conference with a lot of passing teams, they have a very competitive pass rush and secondary.
Offensively, they should again get a lot of production out of the RBs . . . even if they seem to be a bit unproven. They are expecting Thornton to make a leap in Year 2. With an OC that actually will use him, Bourne can easily go back to 900+ YFS like he did in 2021 (when he only saw 70 targets). Maybe JJSS can get close to what Meyers gave them. Parker had 539/3 on only 47 targets last year. If he can stay healthy (admittedly a big if), he could approach 1,000 yards on under 100 targets. Even though BOB was the driving force behind the Gronk / Hernandez 2 TE explosion back in the day, they won't get anything near that out of Henry and Gesicki, But the team should get close to the production they got out of their TEs in 2021 (78-897-10), if not more.
Add it all up, and IMO, NE could average 27 ppg again (if the defense continues to get stops, force turnovers, and give the offense good field position). The disconnect will be what can the defense actually hold opponents to. On paper, the schedule looks pretty tough (BUF x 2, MIA x 2, NYJ x 2, DEN, KC, LV, LAC, DAL, NYG, PHI, WAS, IND, PIT, NOS). Maybe they split their division games and can get 6-7 wins in their other games. To me, they look like a 9- or 10-win team.
I am sure that's more wins than you see them winning . . . and winning 8-10 games a year really won't get them anywhere except in potential playoff contention year-over-year. Like every other team in the league, finding a competent QB is what is going to have the biggest impact on their win total from year to year and long-term prognosis. I have my doubts it's Jones, but at this point he appears to be locked in as their guy (at least for this season). Curran pretty much said the same team. He's not getting traded, they are sticking with him, and this will be a make-or-break year for him.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Thank you Mike Tomlin
Apparently a straightforward and honest answer rather than spinning a false narrative gets you labelled as lacking an edge or competitive fire. Weird.
Apparently a straightforward and honest answer rather than spinning a false narrative gets you labelled as lacking an edge or competitive fire. Weird.
Boston
Footballguy
if you get Bostonsportsjournal Bedard has a good article on the kid's personality...it appears there was some concern by some teams/scouts that he doesn't have that typical alpha CB persona where they get in your face...he doesn't think it's an issue because the kid is a hard-worker, well like and has no baggage...just seems to be a profile that some want in their #1 CB.
Boston
Footballguy
Bedard also says there were some teams who took Broderick Jones off their draft board due to character concerns...it appears beauty (or character) is in the eye of the beholder...or the Head Coach.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Reports out there that NE tried to move back into the first round after taking Gonzalez and are rumored to be trying to jump up in the second. I believe they have an interest in WR Josh Downs UNC, but not sure if they have to move up to go to get him. Maybe there is someone else they are targeting? One of the TE's? I doubt it's Levis or Hooker.
Boston
Footballguy
With two TE's in the last year of their deal one of those top TE's like Mayer, Laporta or Musgrave would be a nice addition both short and long term....a TE like Mayer who can block as well would add another dimension they need.
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SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Oh for the good old days when the only madman you needed in the secondary was the strong safety. I jest of course, but your comment made me realize why Pitt and NE might react in opposite manners to a CB without a warrior personality. Other than Rodney Harrison, BB doesn't have a history of loving boomstick secondary players....and has demonstrated he doesnt want or need ballhawks who take too many risks (Asanti, hi!)
RenegadeRoy
Footballguy
I think Bill also sees how officiating works in the current NFL. Showboating and physical play is much more likely to get flagged or get you on a zebra's bad side these days. He doesn't want to waste time training that out of guys when he can just take a hard worker who keeps his head down.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I know there are many fans out there saying "OMG! What are they doing, what about the offense!!!" I like the players they've drafted (even if they are on the defensive side of the ball). I know they didn't really need another hybrid box safety / linebacker / nickel back, but Mapu is a BB guy. Can play multiple positions, hard hitter, play maker, chess piece, and Dugger insurance.
NE still has a lot of picks . . . probably too many. Maybe they could have used some to move up the board. I like who they drafted so far, so not sure what they would have ended up with better than what they took. Remember, they have hit on a number of guys 4th round or later before . . .
Trey Flowers - 101
Stephen Gostkowski - 118
Aaron Hernandez - 113
Rhamondre Stevenson - 120
Asante Samuel - 120
Jack Jones - 121
James White - 130
Shaq Mason - 131
Deatrick Wise - 131
Marcus Cannon - 138
Ja'Whaun Bentley - 143
Matthew Slater - 153
Dan Koppen - 164
Michael Onwenu - 182
Tom Brady - 199
Ted Karras - 221
Matt Cassel - 230
Julian Edelman - 232
David Givens - 244
Admittedly, like all teams, most of their last day picks haven't amounted to much. With 9 picks left, they will probably find one or two guys that will end up contributing.
NE still has a lot of picks . . . probably too many. Maybe they could have used some to move up the board. I like who they drafted so far, so not sure what they would have ended up with better than what they took. Remember, they have hit on a number of guys 4th round or later before . . .
Trey Flowers - 101
Stephen Gostkowski - 118
Aaron Hernandez - 113
Rhamondre Stevenson - 120
Asante Samuel - 120
Jack Jones - 121
James White - 130
Shaq Mason - 131
Deatrick Wise - 131
Marcus Cannon - 138
Ja'Whaun Bentley - 143
Matthew Slater - 153
Dan Koppen - 164
Michael Onwenu - 182
Tom Brady - 199
Ted Karras - 221
Matt Cassel - 230
Julian Edelman - 232
David Givens - 244
Admittedly, like all teams, most of their last day picks haven't amounted to much. With 9 picks left, they will probably find one or two guys that will end up contributing.
Boston
Footballguy
Kind of blah with this draft...individually I like all 3 players...they all have a chance to contribute and hopefully one is a #1 CB which is always huge...that being said I despise the fact that even though they have 4 #4's and 4 #6's they did not get aggressive and go after some more high-end talent which they badly need...also, I just don't understand what the plan is with the offense and how they expect to improve on that side of the ball...yes, BoB is a quality OC and a big upgrade but I am beginning to laugh at this narrative that he is suddenly Bill Walsh or Don Coryell and is one of the great offensive minds in the game...I assume they will use a bunch of picks on that side of the ball today, but I find it hard to believe they think all that unit needed was a bunch of mid-round picks to get things to the next level...I guess I will just continue beating a dead horse and say that I don't understand the direction BB is taking them post-Brady and I see a team that will finish with around 7 or 8 wins and no momentum going into the next season.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
To me....NE is 3 for 3 so far in grabbing exceptional value in this year's draft. WR is a need but Randy Moss isn't available in this year's draft. All I really would like to see is a couple oline picks in the 4th round.
From Pats Pulpit....
“There are a lot of different ways to build a team, this is one part of it,” he explained. “Free agency was part of it. Didn’t sign a lot of defensive players in free agency… most of the signings were on offense.”
The head coach went on to list JuJu Smith-Schuster, Mike Gesicki, Riley Reiff, and Calvin Anderson as players New England added on the offensive side of the ball in free agency. The Patriots also plan on a remodeled coaching staff - led by offensive coordinator Bill O’Brien - helping to lead to improvements.
With nine picks still in their chamber heading into the final day of the draft, it should be expected New England adds multiple players on the offensive side of the ball. But, as always, they will continue to explore all paths to add talent to the roster.
“Sometimes it’s balanced, sometimes it isn’t,” Belichick said. “But, in the end we’ll field the best team we can to be competitive this year. Where they come from… we’ll just have to see how all that plays out.”
Boston
Footballguy
Great plan...they will be competitive and there are different ways to do it...would actually like to try a different way than the way you did it with the greatest player of all time who is no longer on the team.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I'm not sure I follow your point...is it that you think Bill is stuck in his old ways and needs to change for NEP to be more competitive? If so, exactly what would meaningful change be? Does he need to bring in OBJ, Hopkins or Zeke Elliott? Should he have been more aggressive in pursuing Garrapolo, Carr or Rodgers? Or should he have traded up for an offensive playmaker in this year's draft? With the exception of adding JuJu, who I consider an over-rated WR2, I'm pretty happy with how this preseason has gone down, say versus last year for example.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I will map out a scenario that some will probably disagree with. The 2021 Patriots scored 462 points and ranked 6th in the league in scoring with a rookie QB in Mac Jones. They swapped out McDaniels for O'Brien . . . and when they did that before the offense didn't miss a beat (yes, I am aware Patricia was in the middle this time). But comparing 2023 forecast for production to 2021 production . . .
JJSS = Meyers (875/2)
Bourne = Bourne (925/5)
Henry = Henry (603/9)
Parker >>>>> Agholor (484/3)
Thornton >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Harry (184/0)
Gesicki >>>>> Smith (334/1)
Stevenson >> Harris (1061/15)
Strong <<< Stevenson (729/5)
MJones < Bolden (631/3)
KHarris = White/Taylor (177/3)
Offensively, I can see the 2023 being stronger than the 2021 team . . . certainly in yardage and probably the same in points scored. Defensively, the 2021 team had 36 sacks . . . last year they had 54. Both teams forced 30 turnovers. Clearly their special teams play has to be a lot better. Two kick off returns for TD in one game? Multiple blocked punts? A ton of penalties. Yeah, that needs to be cleaned WAY up. Put another way, I don't think this team is worse than the 2021 version. Not sure what that means for their record.
JJSS = Meyers (875/2)
Bourne = Bourne (925/5)
Henry = Henry (603/9)
Parker >>>>> Agholor (484/3)
Thornton >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Harry (184/0)
Gesicki >>>>> Smith (334/1)
Stevenson >> Harris (1061/15)
Strong <<< Stevenson (729/5)
MJones < Bolden (631/3)
KHarris = White/Taylor (177/3)
Offensively, I can see the 2023 being stronger than the 2021 team . . . certainly in yardage and probably the same in points scored. Defensively, the 2021 team had 36 sacks . . . last year they had 54. Both teams forced 30 turnovers. Clearly their special teams play has to be a lot better. Two kick off returns for TD in one game? Multiple blocked punts? A ton of penalties. Yeah, that needs to be cleaned WAY up. Put another way, I don't think this team is worse than the 2021 version. Not sure what that means for their record.
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SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Lansdowne
Footballguy
Love the dart throw with Boutte in the 6th. That’s the sort of pick I wish they’d make more often in that stage of the draft. Has the prospect pedigree, if he can be healthy and fix the mental problems the Pats could have a steal on their hands. If not it only cost a 6th.
Boston
Footballguy
Pete Prisco not giving the Pats any love in his post-draft power rankings:
www.cbssports.com
NFL Power Rankings: Jets, Bears, Browns biggest post-draft risers; Chiefs, Eagles still top 2; Patriots plunge
Pete Prisco's rankings look much different after the draft and a wild offseason that put Aaron Rodgers on the Jets
www.cbssports.com
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Pete Prisco not giving the Pats any love in his post-draft power rankings:
NFL Power Rankings: Jets, Bears, Browns biggest post-draft risers; Chiefs, Eagles still top 2; Patriots plunge
Pete Prisco's rankings look much different after the draft and a wild offseason that put Aaron Rodgers on the Jets
Before he went national, Prisco was a beat reporter for the Jaguars when I lived in Jacksonville. I consider him a poser. His review highlights the likely improvement on offense, and then has NE sliding 9 positions in power rankings. Reads like a logic fail.
One thing's for sure, coordinator Bill O'Brien will be better for this offense than the mess from last year.
Boston
Footballguy
Douglas fits a need, it seems, to give Mac a WR who provides some quick separation. In Miami, Parker and Gesicki, were big targets who often had among the worst separation metrics in the league. I'm not sure about Juju, but I don't think he provides alot of separation either. In my 16 team redraft league, I'd consider Mac as one of my top #2 QBs based on what I saw in both 2021 and 2022 versus Miami. In 2021, he made good presnap reads and good throws, often just before getting hit. In 2022, he threw many passes into coverage attempting big throws. Some of this was on the OC.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Except for the top and bottom 5, these odds translate to probabilities between 2 and 4 % for the majority of teams in the league....so a "wait and see" orientation isn't that much of a stretch.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Tom E. Curran has planted his flag and is resolute and unwavering that NE is winning 10 or 11 games and possibly 12 this season. Even with their schedule, the stable of top QBs they will have to face. He thinks O’Brien gets the offense back to where it was in 2021, the defense will be younger and faster, and that the team has a lot of talented players. Let’s just say he has a minority option among the Boston media.
rockaction
Footballguy
I'll have what he's having.
Seriously, their schedule is not going to be easy. I looked at the Jets schedule and had to wonder if the Jets were going to win nine or ten, tops. The Pats do have the advantage of facing shakier teams in the games that aren't determined by the divisional opponents (AFC East for 6, AFC West for 4, NFC East for 4), but eleven wins sounds extraordinary. We shall see.