fruity pebbles
Footballguy
#3 it is
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Indefinite New England Patriots Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter captain_amazing
- Start date
Daniels.
Don't think you leave this draft without the QB. Really don't want to hear draft M. Harrison and then sign a FA QB.
Get Daniels, have plenty of cap space to grab a M. Pittman.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Are you saying Daniels because Williams and Maye would already be gone? Or you saying that because that's who you want them to draft? Put another way, which college QB do you most want them to draft?
Boston
Footballguy
I definitely prefer this path...we are 4 years post-TB12...time to solidify the QB position...I just hope that between the big 3 and possibly Penix they are sold that they have a QB they can build around...bottom-line to me (and I will keep banging this drum) the most important part of this offseason is bringing in the right GM...they need to nail the draft and free agency...they do not have any room for error...if they screw-up this offseason it will destroy them for the next 3-5 years.
Assuming Williams and Maye both gone.
Honestly, take whoever falls to them at 3.
I haven't done enough analysis yet to land on a preference, but now have wayyyy too much time to do that lol.
Sounds like as of this morning, Bill is willing to relinquish his GM responsibilities. I wonder if Kraft keeps him around now.
I have a hard time believing Bill would be interested in that scenario and ceding any ground, but who knows.
Kinda feel like it's just time to rip the bandaid off and start over clean.
Boston
Footballguy
Pats schedule next year:
Away: Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Bengals, Bears, Titans, 49ers, Jaguars, Cardinals
New England Patriots
Home: Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Texans, Colts, Rams, Seahawks, ChargersAway: Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Bengals, Bears, Titans, 49ers, Jaguars, Cardinals
No way.
Boston
Footballguy
Agreed…time to move on although you can already see the BB camp‘s narrative…give up personnel duties and bring back Josh McDaniels and it is 2014 all over again…as far as personnel is concerned does anyone really think that when BB says that he means he will have no say in who they bring in as GM or not be involved in what players get brought in at all…if so, it goes against everything we know about him…the guy has both his sons on his staff as well as a bunch of his buddy’s kids involved in the organization and we are to believe he will be good with an outsider calling the shots as well as telling him what to do…seriously…does anyone really believe that.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
I have heard the "getting the band back together" talk and don't agree with it. I think the Kraft's don't want to dump Bill (that's one issue), don't want to pay him a ton of money to NOT be there (a separate issue), and are fearful that Bill could go somewhere and make a team a contender (a third issue). Whoever they bring in to be GM with Bill would essentially be an assistant to BB without much authority (not necessarily an errand boy, but not someone with a big voice and stake in decision making). Bill wouldn't care . . . he'd be getting the same amount of money either way.
The defense was pretty solid given how inept the offense was (and the key injuries the defense had). But offensively . . .
- Last in scoring and % of drives resulting in points
- 31st in first downs and passer rating
- 29th in passing NY/A
- 28th in passing yards
- 27th in passing TD
- 26th in rushing yards, rushing TD, and ypc
- 6th in total turnovers and 2nd in interceptions
We have reached a conundrum with the offense . . . they can't do anything without a QB . . . who can't do anything without skill position weapons . . . who can't do anything without an offensive line. Over the last few years, we've already seen that BB hasn't been able to draft, sign, or develop guys in those categories, so not sure how giving him another shot at it makes much sense. As already discussed, it also doesn't make sense to jettison Bill and have current or former coaches / BB disciples run things either.
The best case if they bring Bill back would be that they get a couple of functional pieces in the draft and free agency, have fewer injuries, get a few bounces to go their way, and get back to 7 or 8 wins like last year. Then the problem and narrative could become "they had twice as many wins as last year and could be headed in the right direction, so let's just stick with and extend Bill."
Boston
Footballguy
Agreed...it has run its course...time to move on...while things have been quiet on their side, I can't picture the Krafts not already knowing what they want to do...anyone who has done business with them either with the Pats or outside of football know they can be ruthless...after you let TB12 walk now is not the time to be sentimental.
If that's the case, you'd think they have pretty firm ideas on who they want for GM and a new coach.
This should not be dragged out.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
One thing that at the moment doesn't appear to have been fully accurate is the narrative that the Kraft's had already decided to move on from Bill in Germany. If they had already determined that, Bill would have been out on the street by 8 AM yesterday morning like the other group of coaches on Black Monday. Now is not the time to drag things out, as leading coordinators and college coaches will be taking calls and setting up interviews (and accepting new roles). Teams need to go after their guys and the top candidates . . . not pick from the leftovers and guys that have been passed over.
That to me sounds like it means they will either bring Bill back (not a great choice), promote Mayo (not a great choice), and wait to see if Vrabel is available and try to bring him in if he is (also not a great choice IMO but that's a topic on its own). That potentially would mean they aren't looking to blow things up and start over (which is what the team needs at this point).
Boston
Footballguy
I disagree with the 8:00am comment...the Krafts are fully aware of the PR component of this and getting rid of BB at 8:00am yesterday with the Arthur Smiths of the world is an awful look for them and if they are moving on I do think they want it done as cleanly as possible...whether BB stays, it's Mayo, it's Vrabel or someone else I do believe they already know the path they are traveling...now if this goes on beyond this week than all bets are off as to what happens but it is just too big of a decision to think they would not already have a plan in place...from a take-it-for-what-it-is-worth angle I have heard one monster rumor from a customer of mine that actually has a few legit Foxboro connections...right now I take it with a huge grain of salt and I have not heard it speculated anywhere else so I am beyond doubtful but if it does happen it will blow people away.
Boston
Footballguy
Giardi on Patriot URFA's:
The Pats have 18 unrestricted free agents heading into this offseason. The only players the team needs to make a strong bid to keep are Michael Onwenu, Anfernee Jennings, and Hunter Henry. After that? I like Mack Wilson as a situational pass rusher, sliding into the role Josh Uche held this season (both played just 9 snaps in the run-heavy finale). No, he's not the same level, but if I'm doing a cost-benefit analysis, it makes sense to pay Wilson versus Uche 10 (or whatever it will take). Either way, Uche didn't earn/wasn't allowed to eat more snaps after Matthew Judon's injury, and his work as a run defender is not good.
I would look to retain Myles Bryant (ducking, as many of you are not fans), but again, not for any real money (say north of $5 mil). Does he get exposed playing as much as he had to this year? Yep. He's still a valuable player in the proper role.
As for Kendrick Bourne, I'd take him back, but also not for real money, especially as he's coming off a torn ACL. It might be good value, but to expect him to be what he was this season or a few years ago is probably wishing for too much. Year two is when the ACL guys look like themselves.
The rest of that list is either minimum contract guys (see Pharoah Brown) or not guys I want around (hello, Mike Gesicki and Trent Brown).
The Pats have 18 unrestricted free agents heading into this offseason. The only players the team needs to make a strong bid to keep are Michael Onwenu, Anfernee Jennings, and Hunter Henry. After that? I like Mack Wilson as a situational pass rusher, sliding into the role Josh Uche held this season (both played just 9 snaps in the run-heavy finale). No, he's not the same level, but if I'm doing a cost-benefit analysis, it makes sense to pay Wilson versus Uche 10 (or whatever it will take). Either way, Uche didn't earn/wasn't allowed to eat more snaps after Matthew Judon's injury, and his work as a run defender is not good.
I would look to retain Myles Bryant (ducking, as many of you are not fans), but again, not for any real money (say north of $5 mil). Does he get exposed playing as much as he had to this year? Yep. He's still a valuable player in the proper role.
As for Kendrick Bourne, I'd take him back, but also not for real money, especially as he's coming off a torn ACL. It might be good value, but to expect him to be what he was this season or a few years ago is probably wishing for too much. Year two is when the ACL guys look like themselves.
The rest of that list is either minimum contract guys (see Pharoah Brown) or not guys I want around (hello, Mike Gesicki and Trent Brown).
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
Hello, this seems like it's missing a specific detail..
Boston
Footballguy
Wow...the plot definitely thickens...many have said he is the Kraft's first choice...now you can get him without giving up compensation...Bob and Jonathan...you are on the clock!
Boston
Footballguy
On purpose...because I don't really believe it...just want to throw that out there because if it does happen I can circle back....but after Vrabel being fired we may have our next HC.
Boston
Footballguy
I agree with this 100%...I don't see BB letting someone else make decisions in Foxboro:
www.nbcsportsboston.com
Curran: Think again if you believe Belichick will relinquish GM duties
On a new episode of “Quick Slants,” Tom E. Curran explains why he doesn’t buy the notion that Bill Belichick would relinquish GM duties to stay as Patriots head coach.
www.nbcsportsboston.com
Boston
Footballguy
Curran: Expect Patriots to stick with their decision on Belichick
Despite what Bill Belichick told reporters Monday, Tom E. Curran believes the Patriots’ original decision to part ways with the head coach is still in place.
www.nbcsportsboston.com
"I think they're very methodical in the way they do things, and the fact that Mike Vrabel has kind of cannonballed into the coaching pool here, I don't know if that would necessarily cause them to alter the course of what they're planning to do," Curran said of Patriots ownership.
"So, to me, we reported a month ago that a decision had been made and the Patriots would be parting ways with Bill Belichick. That remains what I believe will happen this week (or) in the near future at least. And I believe that they will stay on the course with Jerod Mayo as the next head coach."
"Ownership's decision was made weeks ago," Curran added Tuesday on NBC Sports Boston's Quick Slants. " ... The decision is the decision, the parting of the ways will happen. The irony in this, of course, is we all know what Bill would do if Bill was on the other side of the desk. The reboot would be coming and the reconstruction would be under somebody else's auspices, which is what is going to happen."
Curran: Expect Patriots to stick with their decision on Belichick
Despite what Bill Belichick told reporters Monday, Tom E. Curran believes the Patriots’ original decision to part ways with the head coach is still in place.
"I think they're very methodical in the way they do things, and the fact that Mike Vrabel has kind of cannonballed into the coaching pool here, I don't know if that would necessarily cause them to alter the course of what they're planning to do," Curran said of Patriots ownership.
"So, to me, we reported a month ago that a decision had been made and the Patriots would be parting ways with Bill Belichick. That remains what I believe will happen this week (or) in the near future at least. And I believe that they will stay on the course with Jerod Mayo as the next head coach."
"Ownership's decision was made weeks ago," Curran added Tuesday on NBC Sports Boston's Quick Slants. " ... The decision is the decision, the parting of the ways will happen. The irony in this, of course, is we all know what Bill would do if Bill was on the other side of the desk. The reboot would be coming and the reconstruction would be under somebody else's auspices, which is what is going to happen."
If you listen to Felger and Mazz they think Vrabel is a done deal.
Honestly, I'd take Vrabel over Mayo in a heartbeat.
Found it interesting listening to Felger/Mazz that Felger would prefer "the new young McVay" type. I tend to agree with him. Need to modernize. I'm not sure Vrabel is that guy (defensive minded, hands off on offense, for years it's been Henry focused). I wonder if they'd consider the DET offensive coordinator who is said to demand $25M.
That said, the silence is deafening and the longer this takes the worse I fear the outcome will be.
Boston
Footballguy
Curran: Expect Patriots to stick with their decision on Belichick
Despite what Bill Belichick told reporters Monday, Tom E. Curran believes the Patriots’ original decision to part ways with the head coach is still in place.
"I think they're very methodical in the way they do things, and the fact that Mike Vrabel has kind of cannonballed into the coaching pool here, I don't know if that would necessarily cause them to alter the course of what they're planning to do," Curran said of Patriots ownership.
"So, to me, we reported a month ago that a decision had been made and the Patriots would be parting ways with Bill Belichick. That remains what I believe will happen this week (or) in the near future at least. And I believe that they will stay on the course with Jerod Mayo as the next head coach."
"Ownership's decision was made weeks ago," Curran added Tuesday on NBC Sports Boston's Quick Slants. " ... The decision is the decision, the parting of the ways will happen. The irony in this, of course, is we all know what Bill would do if Bill was on the other side of the desk. The reboot would be coming and the reconstruction would be under somebody else's auspices, which is what is going to happen."
If you listen to Felger and Mazz they think Vrabel is a done deal.
Honestly, I'd take Vrabel over Mayo in a heartbeat.
Found it interesting listening to Felger/Mazz that Felger would prefer "the new young McVay" type. I tend to agree with him. Need to modernize. I'm not sure Vrabel is that guy (defensive minded, hands off on offense, for years it's been Henry focused). I wonder if they'd consider the DET offensive coordinator who is said to demand $25M.
That said, the silence is deafening and the longer this takes the worse I fear the outcome will be.
I'm not sure what the silence means...I just can't believe they don't know what they are doing with BB...they know what he is so you either keep him or move on...one meeting after 25 years should have zero bearing on this decision...many in the local media have strongly speculated that Vrabel is who the Krafts really covet...and now he is available...I do get what Felger is saying...the league is built around offense and the QB position and if your HC is not an offensive guy like Shanny, McVay or Reid as soon as you have a successful OC there is a good chance he is gone and you potentially lose continuity on that side of the ball...that should not stop you from hiring a Mayo or Vrabel but I do think they need to have a legit plan on making sure they are grooming offensive coaches within the organization...one thing I wonder about Mayo...if BB does moves on they need to adhere to the Rooney rule...if they in-fact have promised (or at least strongly indicated) that Mayo was next in-line and they do hire Vrabel are they concerned about blowback...not sure and haven't seen anyone mention it but I could see it becoming an issue, especially if Mayo feels he has been done dirty.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
As hinted at earlier, I don't love Mayo or Vrabel as HC options. Mayo only knows all things NE, so I would be surprised if the Pats made many changes to the coaching staff other than swapping out Belichick for Mayo. I don't see how that makes them any different or any better. Without any experience for Mayo on offense, I don't see how this would help the offense any. Rumors have come out that Mayo might be difficult to work with (who knows if that's true). Don't see this as making any difference in the next few years (meaning Mayo may not last long and the team could still be terrible).
Vrabel at least has HC experience and a few years had the Titans competitive. But historically TEN was very similar to NE . . . ground and pound and hope the other team made mistakes. Under Vrabel, the Titans ranked 31st, 31st, 30th, 25th, 30th, and 30th in passing attempts. TEN were as good as Henry was productive, and the other offensive skill position players didn't really thrive or develop with Vrabel there. Sure, they drafted AJ Brown, who was solid but exploded in PHI. Cory Davis was a Top 5 pick and fizzled out. Burks was a Top 20 pick and hasn't shown much. They brought in several free agent WR (Humphries, Reynolds, Woods, Julio) that didn't really work out (Hopkins did well this season . . . but the team still only ended up with 6 wins). They've cycled through multiple TE without great production there either (an aging Walker, Smith, Pruitt, Swaim, Hooper, Okonkwo). I also have heard that Vrabel is a taskmaster with a hardnosed coaching style, which again seems very Belichickian. If they do hire Vrabel, we don't know if he will stick with coaches with ties to NE. But overall, I don't see Vrabel being able to do much better than he did recently in TEN (only with a less talented roster in NE).
I don't think Mayo or Vrabel would have any impact at all on the offense, and that's what is what ails NE.
Vrabel at least has HC experience and a few years had the Titans competitive. But historically TEN was very similar to NE . . . ground and pound and hope the other team made mistakes. Under Vrabel, the Titans ranked 31st, 31st, 30th, 25th, 30th, and 30th in passing attempts. TEN were as good as Henry was productive, and the other offensive skill position players didn't really thrive or develop with Vrabel there. Sure, they drafted AJ Brown, who was solid but exploded in PHI. Cory Davis was a Top 5 pick and fizzled out. Burks was a Top 20 pick and hasn't shown much. They brought in several free agent WR (Humphries, Reynolds, Woods, Julio) that didn't really work out (Hopkins did well this season . . . but the team still only ended up with 6 wins). They've cycled through multiple TE without great production there either (an aging Walker, Smith, Pruitt, Swaim, Hooper, Okonkwo). I also have heard that Vrabel is a taskmaster with a hardnosed coaching style, which again seems very Belichickian. If they do hire Vrabel, we don't know if he will stick with coaches with ties to NE. But overall, I don't see Vrabel being able to do much better than he did recently in TEN (only with a less talented roster in NE).
I don't think Mayo or Vrabel would have any impact at all on the offense, and that's what is what ails NE.
Money and trade rights is what it means to me.
Pretty much agree with everything there, but I'd be ok with Vrabel as head coach and a fresh mind as the OC...and NOT Josh McDaniels.
Boston
Footballguy
Definitely a possibility……not sure why anyone would trade for him if he is about to be let go but if the Pats can get something for him I will take it.
Boston
Footballguy
Agreed…not giving Vrabel a pass on the O but when Henry is your RB and Tannehill is your QB that is how you are going to play football…as said before the question I would ask Vrabel is that how you played because of your personnel or how you want to play football…if he is committed to that style of offense I want no part of him.
I'm guessing/reading between the lines but I think it's mainly about money and the Krafts interest in trading him if they could is also more about the money then comp as it gets them out of the contract.
When he referenced his contract the other day it got me thinking that money was at play. Then later I heard Dianni Russini say that she has heard money is a major deal with Bill, which it is for most of course but not always the prime motivator. But what she was getting at is Bill was telling the Krafts you can fire me and owe me all my contract but I'm not resigning and giving up this money.
I assume his contract has offsets but my guess he's kind of being held hostage for at least a few days in hopes they can make him reach a settlement or agree to be traded, which again I think the main goal would be getting out from the money he is owed.
It's sort of the anti-approach the Titans took when they said no on trading Vrabel because it would put them behind on the coaching search. But the rules are a little different this year and you got more time plus nothing is actually prohibiting NE from starting the process.
Boston
Footballguy
There has been a lot of discussion about this locally and it always comes down to this…BB just says fire me so he gets the $ and chooses where he goes and that team also doesn’t have to give any compensation…he really has no incentive to do otherwise…I would like to see this be a clean break…just too much positive history…let him go, give him the $, let him go where he wants and thank him for an amazing job…no need to make it anymore complicated.
Boston
Footballguy
I would love to see him coach Navy…would be a perfect way to end his career.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Bill has indicated multiple times in multiple places he still loves coaching and wants to continue coaching. Don’t see him retiring any time soon.
rockaction
Footballguy
He'd finally be able to put some top-flight receivers out on the field.
Are they still running the wishbone? 32 personnel look!
Boston
Footballguy
They will have to abide by the Rooney Rule but I would love to know if the Krafts have interest in anyone not named Mayo or Vrabel...would be a real surprise if one of these two are not your next HC.
nittanylion
Footballguy
Boat Drinks!
Boston
Footballguy
Patriots part ways with Bill Belichick: Ranking top replacements to fill legendary coach's shoes
The Patriots are embarking on a new era
www.cbssports.com
I found this to be interesting as far as GM is concerned:
As for the front office, 49ers assistant GM Adam Peters is an intriguing name. Similar to Waldron, Adams could be looked at as a hybrid candidate. He broke into the NFL with the Patriots in 2003 as a scouting assistant and spent his final three seasons with the organization (2006-2008) as an area scout. Most recently, Peters has worked under John Lynch in San Francisco, a franchise that has perennially been in the Super Bowl conversation over the last few seasons.
Mike Borgonzi, the assistant GM in Kansas City, is someone else worthy of consideration. The Chiefs have been the dominant team in the NFL in recent seasons, so draining some of that braintrust for New England's benefit would make sense. Borgonzi also has local ties as an Everett, Massachusetts native who was a four-year starter at Brown University.
Boston
Footballguy
As a Pats fan it is 100% time to move on but I'm real happy it is ending this way:
www.nbcsportsboston.com
But when the organization announces the news of the separation on Thursday, it won’t come via press release. It will come at a press conference featuring both Kraft and Belichick.
That speaks volumes. It means both parties have, to some degree, gone to lengths to preserve their relationship. This has not been an explosive, furniture-tipping breakup. And that matters.
Perry: Belichick and Kraft are choosing to put Patriots first
It’s clear both Robert Kraft and Bill Belichick are prioritizing what’s best for the team with how they’re handling Belichick’s exit, writes Phil Perry.
www.nbcsportsboston.com
But when the organization announces the news of the separation on Thursday, it won’t come via press release. It will come at a press conference featuring both Kraft and Belichick.
That speaks volumes. It means both parties have, to some degree, gone to lengths to preserve their relationship. This has not been an explosive, furniture-tipping breakup. And that matters.
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
Something similar happened when the Eagles and Andy Reid parted ways, though it was always labeled as a firing.As a Pats fan it is 100% time to move on but I'm real happy it is ending this way:
Perry: Belichick and Kraft are choosing to put Patriots first
It’s clear both Robert Kraft and Bill Belichick are prioritizing what’s best for the team with how they’re handling Belichick’s exit, writes Phil Perry.
But when the organization announces the news of the separation on Thursday, it won’t come via press release. It will come at a press conference featuring both Kraft and Belichick.
That speaks volumes. It means both parties have, to some degree, gone to lengths to preserve their relationship. This has not been an explosive, furniture-tipping breakup. And that matters.
Lansdowne
Footballguy
Vrabel feels like the most natural fit assuming they aren't promoting Mayo for the job. For GM I hope it's Adam Peters. If the next HC is a defensive minded guy, I hope they bring in a different OC.
Boston
Footballguy
Feeling good about this hire but big picture I feel great about the Kraft ownership (not that I already didn't feel that way)...they could not have handled the BB situation better...they allowed him to do his thing and gave him just enough time to prove it was working and when it became very apparent it wasn't they let him go in the classiest manner possible but were also very open about it...the Kraft's identified Mayo a few years ago as someone they believed in (RK said he reminds him of BB in 96 and that his biggest mistake was not hiring BB after Tuna left), gave him a contract and have stayed committed to it and did not do Mayo dirty when they easily could have when Vrabel suddenly became available...I will be honest...for a while I was on the hire an offensive HC wagon but the more I thought about it the more I want a leader and not a HC who's head is buried in a play sheet all game...I know that is working very well for some teams but Mayo appears to be a legit leader and I think that is beyond important following a legend like BB in such a rabid fan/media market...all that being said this is the second most important hire...GM is more important...this team needs a serious infusion of talent on the offensive side of the ball, has to nail the #3 pick and the rest of the draft, needs to make some hard decisions on players like Duggar, Uche, Jennings and Mike O and has a ton of cap space this offseason...regardless of who the HC is this team will only go as far as the new GM will take them the next couple of year...with the Mayo decision coming so quickly I gotta believe they already know who the GM is...the Krafts were very prepared for this (kudos to Tom Curran because he nailed it) and I am very comfortable with their vision.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
I can't say I feel the same. I agree with you that it seems like Kraft really believes this is the right thing to do and I hope he's right, but this looks like a disaster.
Remember when the Jets hired Saleh because they thought he was the right guy? And he seems like a good coach. And they drafted Wilson. And it was terrible. Hiring an inexperienced head coach who has never been a coordinator is part of it but hiring a defensive coach is not a good way to develop a franchise quarterback.
Which means they'll need an experienced offensive coordinator. Are we looking for Bill O Brien to usher in a new quarterback? The hope I guess would be that he could develop Jayden Daniels into the next Deshaun Watson, and ignore what happened with Mac and Zappe?
If it's not BoB, I'm worried it will be McDaniels. He was a great coordinator for working with Brady because he didn't need to install the system, just work within it. When he has worked with other quarterbacks it hasn't gone well. And he's got to feel passed over for this job after pulling out on the colts job to stay here. That might make the Mayo McDaniels meetings uncomfortable.
Overall it feels like the Patriots lost a lot of coaching experience, didn't bring in anyone innovative, and expect that to improve the team somehow. It's possible but it doesn't seem likely.
I'm having visions of the future and it's us watching Belichick breaking Shula's record in 2026 for some other team and wishing he was here.
Boston
Footballguy
Patriots to hire new General Manager to work with HC Jerod Mayo
The Patriots have their new head coach in Jerod Mayo but that is just one part of the organization's plan to replace Bill Belichick.
www.nbcsports.com
“We need what I say — I call it, we need ‘Dr. No’s’ around us, people to protect us from ourselves,” Kraft said. “And as things evolve and you get more power, sometimes people are afraid to speak up. I’m speaking about all companies.
Boston
Footballguy
We will see what happens but we are definitely on different sides of this (and I would not be surprised if others were looking for innovative over leadership as well)...time will tell...we do agree that in that I also hope to see BB break that record but under no condition should it have been here after what we have seen post TB12.
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