Ingram vs. P. Thomas: what was the carries ration last year when both (1 Viewer)

[DevilintheDetail]

I read that, overall, Ingram had 38% of the Saints' carries last year and Thomas had 34%. However, Ingram was hurt much of the year and only played in 10 games. Does anyone know what % of carries Ingram got during games when he was healthy?

 

[Nero]

53% of the RB carries. However, the Saints were better when he wasn't in the game. Hopefully they figure that out.

 

[DevilintheDetail]

However, the Saints were better when he wasn't in the game.

Thank you. Can you unpack this statement a bit? How were they better? I didn't get to watch Ingram much last year, so I'd love more insight. On paper, he is a high-pedigree guy who, even though he had no training camp and was injured much of the year, got over 50% of the carries his rookie year (when he played) in a crowded backfield on an explosive offense that knows how to rush the ball (I think the Saints were like top 6 in overall rushing last year). Seems like a lot of upside if he's healthy now.

 

[packersfan]

However, the Saints were better when he wasn't in the game.

Thank you. Can you unpack this statement a bit? How were they better?

They weren't. The Saints were 5-1 in games last season when Ingram had double-digit rushing attempts and 7-2 in games when he had double-digit touches.

 

[jurb26]

However, the Saints were better when he wasn't in the game.

Thank you. Can you unpack this statement a bit? How were they better?

They weren't. The Saints were 5-1 in games last season when Ingram had double-digit rushing attempts and 7-2 in games when he had double-digit touches.

And wasn't Ingram playing injured most of the year as well?

 

[Nero]

Thomas, Sproles and Ivory were clearly more effective runners. Sproles and Thomas were better in the passing game. It appeared as if they were trying to force feed their 1st rounder even though he was getting outplayed. There is not one aspect of the running game where you could say Ingram was the best or even second best. They were more effective without him.

 

[DevilintheDetail]

Here's what OC Carmichael had to say about Ingram recently:

How would you assess Mark Ingram’s play so far this preseason?

“Very good. The opportunities that he’s had, we’ve been pleased with how he’s running the ball and hitting the hole, low pads and all that. We feel really good with him.”

Mark Ingram looks like he’s moving a little faster. Have you noticed that?

“You spend the offseason and sometimes you get caught up during the season, but we went back during the offseason and when we were looking at the cut-ups, really we were pleasantly surprised with how well he ran the ball last year. We expect great things from him.”

 

[packersfan]

Thomas, Sproles and Ivory were clearly more effective runners. Sproles and Thomas were better in the passing game. It appeared as if they were trying to force feed their 1st rounder even though he was getting outplayed. There is not one aspect of the running game where you could say Ingram was the best or even second best. They were more effective without him.

The Saints were damn good offensively period. But as the records I posted show, there is nothing to indicate they were less effective the more they utilized Ingram. I disagree that Ivory was a better RB. I think Ingram is far more talented but that's personal opinion although given Ingram and Ivory's positions on the depth chart both last season and this season it would appear the Saints coaches agree with me.

 

[We Tigers]

There were zero games last year that Ingram played in which Thomas out-carried him. They use Ingram as a 1st and 2nd down rusher, short-yardage back, and goal-line guy. Thomas is sorta the do-anything guy, and Sproles is obviously the "we're throwing!" back.

Ivory only played when Ingram was out. He's basically a backup to Ingram's role exclusively.

 

[packersfan]

I think Thomas and Ingram are both solid RB3 options, Thomas more in PPR formats and Ingram more in standard. Sproles has RB1 upside in PPR. Ivory has no role unless Ingram is hurt. He's clearly a distant 4th on the depth chart.

 

[GreenNGold]

However, the Saints were better when he wasn't in the game.

Thank you. Can you unpack this statement a bit? How were they better?

They weren't. The Saints were 5-1 in games last season when Ingram had double-digit rushing attempts and 7-2 in games when he had double-digit touches.

The saints had 2 of their 3 losses when Ingram had double digit touches.

 

[packersfan]

However, the Saints were better when he wasn't in the game.

Thank you. Can you unpack this statement a bit? How were they better?

They weren't. The Saints were 5-1 in games last season when Ingram had double-digit rushing attempts and 7-2 in games when he had double-digit touches.

The saints had 2 of their 3 losses when Ingram had double digit touches.

And in one of those games, Ingram had his second-fewest total of touches of the season.Again, there's no evidence to support the statement that the Saints were worse the more Ingram was used. In fact, if you look at the five highest games in terms of number of touches Ingram had last season the Saints won all five.

 

[shader]

One difference in Ingram and in Thomas/Sproles is that when Ingram came in the game, the likelihood was very high that he was getting the ball and that they were going to run.

I wish I had numbers to back that up, maybe someone else does. But they rarely used him in the passing game, he was used primarily as an up the middle runner on obvious running situations. He also got the short yardage plays, which further lowered his ypc.

Throw in the injury and that is one reason Ingram had a poor ypc.

I still maintain he is one of the biggest potential break out guys, due to talent and a run-friendly offense. The problem is figuring out how he's going to get enough carries. Thomas is the one that really kills his value.

 

[packersfan]

One difference in Ingram and in Thomas/Sproles is that when Ingram came in the game, the likelihood was very high that he was getting the ball and that they were going to run.

I agree. There was rarely an element of surprise when Ingram was on the field. That's not the case with Thomas and Sproles. Both are used as runners and receivers so the defense can't gear up for one at the expense of the other. They can do that with Ingram. I like Ingram a lot but I don't like his situation. Unless Thomas gets hurt I don't see Ingram being much more for fantasy than he was last season. I think the Saints have a great situation at RB with Sproles, Thomas and Ingram and I don't see any reason why they should change it.

 

[DevilintheDetail]

One difference in Ingram and in Thomas/Sproles is that when Ingram came in the game, the likelihood was very high that he was getting the ball and that they were going to run.I wish I had numbers to back that up, maybe someone else does. But they rarely used him in the passing game, he was used primarily as an up the middle runner on obvious running situations. He also got the short yardage plays, which further lowered his ypc.Throw in the injury and that is one reason Ingram had a poor ypc.I still maintain he is one of the biggest potential break out guys, due to talent and a run-friendly offense. The problem is figuring out how he's going to get enough carries. Thomas is the one that really kills his value.

Doesn't seem that hard to figure out how he's going to get enough carries - if he got 53% of them last year when he played, it shouldn't be that hard to get up to 65% or so now that he's healthy and been through camp. He should probably also be more involved in the passing game, too, as both the OC and interim HC singled both he and Sproles out as guys that were good at both running and receiving.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The Saints brought Ingram in to get the short yardage 3rd down and goal-line work and be a real threat there.

You just have to realize that it was a problem so much as the Saints have any problem on offense. They love to run between the guards, pre-Sproles (& Ingram) Thomas had a fantastic ypc average. Sproles was awesome like he never was before. And yet on the short work they had one less play in the bag as it were because for the short yardage situations the plunge, vanilla run etc. was just not working.

They want him scoring 10+ TDs and they want him to be a terror on 2nd and 3, 3rd&2/3rd&1, that's where they're going with this.

The Saints are carrying five HBs and 2 FBs right now.

http://www.wwltv.com/sports/black-and-gold/Saints-interim-Aaron-Kromer-sees-dream-come-true-with-five-running-backs-168806626.html

 

[Nero]

I watched every game. Sproles and Pierre were better players last year. The Saints didn't miss a beat when Ingram was out as Ingram's replacement also outplayed Ingram.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

don't look now but one of these guys is listed as the starter. not the one u think

 

[oPlaiD]

However, the Saints were better when he wasn't in the game.

Thank you. Can you unpack this statement a bit? How were they better?

They weren't. The Saints were 5-1 in games last season when Ingram had double-digit rushing attempts and 7-2 in games when he had double-digit touches.

This is because they only use Ingram a lot in games where they have a lead and they want to run out the clock by pounding the ball.When they are actually trying to score they go to the better players, Thomas and Sproles.If the Saints gave Thomas touches like MJD he'd be a top 3 pick in fantasy. They don't need to though since they have so many weapons.

 

[SameSongNDance]

However, the Saints were better when he wasn't in the game.

Thank you. Can you unpack this statement a bit? How were they better?

They weren't. The Saints were 5-1 in games last season when Ingram had double-digit rushing attempts and 7-2 in games when he had double-digit touches.

This is because they only use Ingram a lot in games where they have a lead and they want to run out the clock by pounding the ball.When they are actually trying to score they go to the better players, Thomas and Sproles.



If the Saints gave Thomas touches like MJD he'd be a top 3 pick in fantasy. They don't need to though since they have so many weapons.

If they did that he'd be on the IR. They've tried before.

 

[cstu]

There were zero games last year that Ingram played in which Thomas out-carried him. They use Ingram as a 1st and 2nd down rusher, short-yardage back, and goal-line guy. Thomas is sorta the do-anything guy, and Sproles is obviously the "we're throwing!" back.

Ivory only played when Ingram was out. He's basically a backup to Ingram's role exclusively.

 

[Buck Stop]

If a healthy Ingram doesnt get more touches than PT week 1 then Ingram owners will have to question both the reason they traded up to get him and his long term outlook in NO.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

The comical thing to me is that if you go into an Ingram thread or Saints game commentary thread from last season all you see are Ingram owners complaining about how he's not getting the goaline carries, yet here in this thread there are multiple people saying he was the obvious goaline guy last year.

In the games he played last year, Ingram received 3 out of the teams 14 goaline rushes. That's 21%. Two of those were Drew Brees sneaks so it was 3 of 12 carries by backs. Still a paultry 25%.

In total, the Saints snapped the ball from inside the five yard line 32 times in games that Ingram played last year. On those plays, again, Ingram got 3 touches. That's 9%.

I actually like Ingram this year. Where he's being drafted he's a tremendous low-risk/high-reward player. But, simply put, for whatever reason people are keen on just completely fabricating things when in defense of him. It's the epitome of creating facts to suit your viewpoint instead of basing your viewpoint on already existing facts.

We saw the same thing last year when people just could not help themselves from spewing endless nonsense about how Sean Payton only used RBBC because he never had a running back worth featuring or how Sean Payton would never draft a running back in the 1st round to use as a part-timer, both of which could be easily debunked with 5 seconds of actually looking at Sean Payton's history.

I don't know what it is about this guy that makes people ignore reality for him. That won't prevent him from having a good year, but double check any factoids you hear in any Ingram thread before taking them to heart.

 

[packersfan]

double check any factoids you hear in any Ingram thread before taking them to heart.

I agree, especially any that say the Saints were worse the more Ingram played.Bottom line is what the Saints have works great for them but it's awful for Ingram owners in terms of fantasy. It's probably saving Thomas' career because he's not built for the rigors of being a full-time back. As was posted previously, the Saints tried that and he kept getting hurt. Ingram is a good RB and the Saints have made it clear they like him and value him. But it's also true they have two other good RBs in Sproles and Thomas they also like and value and so they'll utilize all three. It's one of the many reasons why their offense is so potent and productive. They can hit you with a number of different sets and packages, including utilizing their three RBs in a variety of ways.

 

[GreenNGold]

Ingram's line today: 6/15/0

Expect a lot more of that. If you are unlucky enough to own him, trade him to any sucker willing to give up anything for him.

 

[Beerguzzler]

Honestly, the offense just runs so much better when Sproles is in. He was barely used the first half and third qtr. Then the light switch flipped and he didn't leave the field in the fourth and it's like the offense woke up. Expect a bigger dose of Sproles moving forward.

 

[GreenNGold]

Honestly, the offense just runs so much better when Sproles is in. He was barely used the first half and third qtr. Then the light switch flipped and he didn't leave the field in the fourth and it's like the offense woke up. Expect a bigger dose of Sproles moving forward.

The best RB on the Saints did not even have a carry today. Yet he still put up solid numbers.

 

[ponchsox]

Thomas had a great game today. Was Sproles used as a WR in the absence of Henderson? What to expect going forward?

 

[Nucker101]

Thomas had a great game today. Was Sproles used as a WR in the absence of Henderson? What to expect going forward?

I'm expecting the Saints to be in a lot of shootouts because of that awful defense. I don't think Ingram or Thomas can be relied on, but Sproles will be a PPR beast yet again.