Iran seizes two American ships, 10 Sailors held (1 Viewer)

[jon_mx]

Again, sounds like the Iranians did exactly what every other country would have done if two armed crafts entered their waters.

Does anyone have any validation for this meme?

We would not have:

• stopped and stripped a disabled Iranian small craft of their equipment, GPS and weapons, at gunpoint,
• taken down their colors and replaced them with ours;
• arrested their crew and forced them to their knees in a prone position;
• made a video of that,
• used that as propaganda;
• taken their personal gear, including SIM cards and satellite phones, possibly having sensitive technology;
• forced their female sailors (if they allowed such) to wear clothing that offended their sensibilities;
• detained them overnight,
• or interrogated the crew on camera for showing on national tv featuring an apology;
• or continually released edited footage for global publication, including featuring it in our own state media releases and even in embassies.

When have we the US ever done that to any ship that came through our waters?

A Chinese ship just passed through our waters and we did nothing of the kind. This just happened in the last few weeks, our response was the complete opposite. We let the Chinese pass unmolested.

We would assess the situation and approach it with caution. We would inquire about their intentions. Once we were satisfied they had no evil intent, we would offer assistance and help them get back home. We don't want prisioners or hostages outside of war. We don't use them as pawns for propanda or negotiations. The suggestion that we would do the same thing is completely unfounded.

And if that happened I can just hear you guys screaming from your keyboards about how weak Obama is making us look by letting Iran invade our sovereign territory.

I haven't said anything about Obama in this thread. HTH.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Again, sounds like the Iranians did exactly what every other country would have done if two armed crafts entered their waters.

Does anyone have any validation for this meme?

We would not have:

• stopped and stripped a disabled Iranian small craft of their equipment, GPS and weapons, at gunpoint,
• taken down their colors and replaced them with ours;
• arrested their crew and forced them to their knees in a prone position;
• made a video of that,
• used that as propaganda;
• taken their personal gear, including SIM cards and satellite phones, possibly having sensitive technology;
• forced their female sailors (if they allowed such) to wear clothing that offended their sensibilities;
• detained them overnight,
• or interrogated the crew on camera for showing on national tv featuring an apology;
• or continually released edited footage for global publication, including featuring it in our own state media releases and even in embassies.

When have we the US ever done that to any ship that came through our waters?

A Chinese ship just passed through our waters and we did nothing of the kind. This just happened in the last few weeks, our response was the complete opposite. We let the Chinese pass unmolested.

We would assess the situation and approach it with caution. We would inquire about their intentions. Once we were satisfied they had no evil intent, we would offer assistance and help them get back home. We don't want prisioners or hostages outside of war. We don't use them as pawns for propanda or negotiations. The suggestion that we would do the same thing is completely unfounded.

And if that happened I can just hear you guys screaming from your keyboards about how weak Obama is making us look by letting Iran invade our sovereign territory.

China just entered our waters, I assume you haven't heard about it.

Pentagon officials told the Journal that the ships complied with international law, saying the Chinese actions were in accordance with the principal of "innocent passage." A Pentagon spokesman defined that principle by saying the ships "transited expeditiously and continuously through the Aleutian Island chain in a manner consistent with international law."

White House spokesman Josh Earnest told reporters on Wednesday that the Defense Department "positively identified a number of Chinese naval vessels in that region, but based on their analysis, they have not detected any sort of threat or threatening activities."

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/09/04/chinese-warships-spotted-off-alaska-reportedly-in-us-waters.html

No one has criticized Obama for this, right?

These were warships in military exercises. Not a small boat disabled and adrift. Iran should have applied the principle of innocent passage, it was far more applicable in our situation off of Farsi. That's how we handle that situation, according to international law.

 

[the moops]

You think Iran would have done the same thing if it was a US naval warship?

 

[tommyboy]

I think your biggest mistake is assuming Iran cared, or is going to recognize any international law

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

You think Iran would have done the same thing if it was a US naval warship?

You mean would they give us a pass if one of our larger ships was engaged in innocent passage? Who knows, I rather doubt it considering this incident with the RCB's, and also considering they just fired missiles within 1500 yards of one of our larger ships while actually in international waters. - But no matter what it makes no sense, an RCB is infinitely smaller in threat capability than a frigate or other larger ship.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I think your biggest mistake is assuming Iran cared, or is going to recognize any international law

Regardless, the point is this ongoing repeated theme of 'the US would have acted the same way' is apparently completely false.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Forgot, Iran had also seized a US protected ship in international waters just a few months before.

The official said the ship was traveling through “an internationally recognized maritime route.” After being fired on, it issued a distress call, prompting the United States Navy to direct a destroyer, the Farragut, to the area and to put aircraft on standby to monitor the situation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/world/middleeast/iran-cargo-ship-us-navy.html

 

[sho nuff]

@ offended her sensibilities.

Yeah that's a good point, I'm sure a US marine wanted that on her head and did that voluntarily. However I said "their female sailors", my point was thinking it was equivalent to making an Iranian female remove her hijab, but maybe that's not equivalent.

Everything else stand?

We are a country that has been guilty of some nasty atrocities with prisoners in captivity and you are crying about offending sensibilities. Forgive me if your complaints sound petty as can be.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

@ offended her sensibilities.

Yeah that's a good point, I'm sure a US marine wanted that on her head and did that voluntarily. However I said "their female sailors", my point was thinking it was equivalent to making an Iranian female remove her hijab, but maybe that's not equivalent.

Everything else stand?

We are a country that has been guilty of some nasty atrocities with prisoners in captivity and you are crying about offending sensibilities. Forgive me if your complaints sound petty as can be.

Ok, just checking, as far as ships passing through our waters we don't do this.

You're making bigger moral comparisons now, which I am not. I'm just talking about the claim 'the US would have done the exact same thing'. No, no we would not and we have done the opposite in this situation.

 

[sho nuff]

I'm laughing at much of your complaints and how you keep going on about this...the sensibilities thing just jumped out as completely absurd.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'm laughing at much of your complaints and how you keep going on about this...the sensibilities thing just jumped out as completely absurd.

Sho good I'm glad, people do take these conversations too seriously. Either deal with it straight up and have a discussion or have a laugh. We don't affect any of this. Cheers.

 

[tommyboy]

I think your biggest mistake is assuming Iran cared, or is going to recognize any international law

Regardless, the point is this ongoing repeated theme of 'the US would have acted the same way' is apparently completely false.

it is, don't worry about it though. its not worth getting worked up

 

[tommyboy]

Iran also says really stupid stuff like this:

A senior Iranian military commander in charge of the country’s Revolutionary Guard Corps claimed that the 10 U.S. sailors who were recently captured and subsequently released by the Islamic Republic “started crying after [their] arrest,” according to Persian language comments made during military celebrations this weekend.

Hossein Salami, deputy commander of the IRGC, which is responsible for boarding the U.S. ships and arresting the sailors, claimed in recent remarks, the “American sailors started crying after arrest, but the kindness of our Guard made them feel calm.”

Hossein went on to brag that the incident provides definitive evidence of the Iranian military’s supremacy in the region.

“Since the end of the Second World War, no country has been able to arrest American military personnel,” the commander said, according to an independent translation of his Persian-languageremarks made Friday during a “martyrs’ commemoration ceremony” in Isfahan.

Since the capture and release of the U.S. sailors this week, critics of the Obama administration’s handling of the situation have expressed embarrassment at State Department’s move to profusely thank Iran, despite its release of photos depicting the sailors on their knees with their hands held over their heads.

Iranian state television additionally published video purporting to show one of the detained soldiers apologizing to Iran.

Meanwhile, during Friday prayers in Iran, a commander of the IRGC unit that detained the U.S. boats and claimed that the American military cowered when faced down by Iranian troops.

“I saw the weakness, cowardice, and fear of American soldiers myself. Despite having all of the weapons and equipment, they surrendered themselves with the first action of the guardians of Islam,” Ahmad Dolabi, an IRGC commander, said in Persian-language remarks at a prayer service in Iran’s Bushehr providence.

“American forces receive the best training and have the most advanced weapons in the world,” he added. “But they did not have the power to confront the Guard due to weakness of faith and belief.”

that's the ankle biting of a really short and slow point guard vs Shaq.

 

[jon_mx]

You think our Navy is just gonna ask these guys a few questions out in open water, and be able to ascertain whether or not they have any evil intent? And then just give them assistance and let them go on their merry way?

No ####### chance.

Yes, the video and using it as propaganda is not something we would likely ever do, but besides that, they did what any other country would do when a non-ally is patrolling through their waters.

Absolutely they would. My job involves working with these people and I have been to Bahrain. I understand the rules of engagement and what they are up against. I have a pretty good understanding what they would and wouldn't do. We are not aggressive unless provoked.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Update:

Tweet from Iran's Lunatic In Chief:

Khamenei.ir‏@khamenei_ir 3h3 hours ago

God’s deed; IRGC’s timely job; Americans with hands on heads

https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/status/691230624812777473

 

[Ladsud]

Images of a U.S. sailor crying in custody are being broadcast on Iran’s state television as the latest propaganda salvo from the Iranian government.

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/02/10/iran-images-riverine-crying-strong-condemnation-navy/80186322/

 

[roadkill1292]

Images of a U.S. sailor crying in custody are being broadcast on Iran’s state television as the latest propaganda salvo from the Iranian government.

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/02/10/iran-images-riverine-crying-strong-condemnation-navy/80186322/

We have a smart prez who won't be goaded by juvenile BS like that.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Images of a U.S. sailor crying in custody are being broadcast on Iran’s state television as the latest propaganda salvo from the Iranian government.

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/02/10/iran-images-riverine-crying-strong-condemnation-navy/80186322/

We have a smart prez who won't be goaded by juvenile BS like that.

You think that's aimed at our President?

 

[roadkill1292]

Images of a U.S. sailor crying in custody are being broadcast on Iran’s state television as the latest propaganda salvo from the Iranian government.

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/02/10/iran-images-riverine-crying-strong-condemnation-navy/80186322/

We have a smart prez who won't be goaded by juvenile BS like that.

You think that's aimed at our President?

I think it's aimed at the average Yusuf in Iran but some of our more impulsive people here have a tendency to let that get under their skin.

 

[Bucky86]

Images of a U.S. sailor crying in custody are being broadcast on Iran’s state television as the latest propaganda salvo from the Iranian government.

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/02/10/iran-images-riverine-crying-strong-condemnation-navy/80186322/

We have a smart prez who won't be goaded by juvenile BS like that.

You think that's aimed at our President?

I think it's aimed at the average Yusuf in Iran but some of our more impulsive people here have a tendency to let that get under their skin.

Trump would turn that Yusuf into dust!!!! USA! USA! USA! USA!

 

[matuski]

Images of a U.S. sailor crying in custody are being broadcast on Iran’s state television as the latest propaganda salvo from the Iranian government.

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/02/10/iran-images-riverine-crying-strong-condemnation-navy/80186322/

We have a smart prez who won't be goaded by juvenile BS like that.

You think that's aimed at our President?

I think it's aimed at the average Yusuf in Iran but some of our more impulsive people here have a tendency to let that get under their skin.

I bet they even drew mustaches on the faces of our soldiers..

 

[RBM]

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/congressman-classified-details-irans-treatment-u-s-sailors-will-shock-nation/

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/congressman-classified-details-irans-treatment-u-s-sailors-will-shock-nation/

In related news:

- Iran gave medals to the commanders involved in the capture of the Navy ship.

- The US Navy fired the Captain in charge of the vessel in charge of the er misguided sailors. 

http://linkis.com/businessinsider.com/hr12U

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

 

Navy investigation concludes Iran broke international law by detaining sailors


The Navy's top officer said Thursday that an investigation into Iran's detention of 10 sailors and the seizure of their two riverine boats in the Arabian Gulf earlier this year showed that Iran broke international law. 

"These two boats and their crew members had every right to be where they were on that day," said Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John Richardson during a press briefing. 

"The investigation concluded that Iran violated international law by impeding the boat's innocent passage transit and they violated sovereign immunity by boarding, searching and seizing the boats and by photographing and videotaping the crew," he said.

The investigation's conclusion now raises the question of whether and how the Obama administration will seek redress from Iran. 

Richardson would not comment on whether he is aware of any steps the U.S. government will take in response.

"Our investigation didn't investigate that," Richardson said. "So I just want to confine our discussion today on what the investigation covered."

Richardson said the Navy has not directly expressed their displeasure with Iran, leaving it up to Secretary of State John Kerry. 

Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John McCain (R-Ariz.) said the report confirmed Iran's "flagrant violations of international," and criticized the administration for thanking Iran for releasing the sailors. 

“The Navy investigation confirms what has been obvious from the beginning: that Iran’s obstruction, boarding, and seizure of sovereign U.S. Navy vessels at gunpoint and the detention, interrogation, and recording of 10 American sailors were flagrant violations of international law," he said in a statement.

"Yet five months later, the Administration has shamefully failed to retract its craven statements of gratitude and praise for Iran’s illegal behavior. This Administration’s groveling to Iran has placed all American service members at greater risk," he added. 

The January 12 incident came just hours before President Obama was to deliver his State of the Union address, and set off a diplomatic scramble to get the sailors released. 

The incident was an embarrassment to the administration, which was defending a nuclear agreement with Iran that gave it sanctions relief in exchange for limits to its nuclear program. 

The investigation also concluded that the crews of the boats were "derelict" in their duties, by going off course almost immediately after they began their transit from Kuwait to Bahrain in order to save time. 

"The RCB boat captains and crews were derelict in performing their duties to expected norms and standards," the report said. "The crews' unplanned and unauthorized deviation caused them to transit unknowingly through Saudi Arabian territorial seas and then through Iranian territorial seas off the coast of Farsi Island." 

When the boats were about 1.5 nautical miles from Farsi Island, one of the boats' engines broke down, the summary said. 

Shortly thereafter, the Iranian navy approached the boats "in a threatening posture (with weapons uncovered)," it said. As the U.S. boats tried to "evade and then communicated with the Iranians," two more Iranian vessels arrived. 

The U.S. boats were then forced to reposition to Farsi Island, the report said. 

The report also found that some crew members gave the Iranians information about the capability of their boats and passwords to personal phones and laptops. 

And although under standard rules of engagement, U.S. military personnel are obligated to defend their units, the captains leading the crews ordered their gunners to step away from their weapons. 

"I didn't want to start a war with Iran," one of the captains said. "My thought at the end of the day was that no one had to die for a misunderstanding."

The Iranians held the sailors for 16 hours, later releasing video and pictures of the crews kneeling with their hands behind their heads. 

Video was also released of one of the captains apologizing and another crew member wiping away tears. 

Overall, the mission was plagued by poor decisions, bad training and little oversight, the investigation found. 

Two senior officers have already been fired over the incident: Capt. Kyle Moses, which headed the task force that included the riverine units, and Cmdr. Eric Rasch, the commander of the riverine squadron. 

The investigation recommended taking disciplinary or administration action against several members of the crew. 

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/navy/286095-navy-investigation-concludes-iran-broke-international-law-by-detaining#.V3UphHoohpc.twitter

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Second, the chain of command was not well defined on the two boats. While a young lieutenant was the highest-ranking individual on either of the two 50-foot boats, when the order was given to evade the Iranian forces, the helmsman refused the order.

Third, defense officials tell Fox News the Navy had become too complacent with the its treatment by Iranian forces in the months leading up to the January capture.

“The story here is these guys had gotten so used to Iranians doing stupid s---, having weapons pointed at them all the time, they didn’t know they were being captured until the Iranians boarded their boats,” one defense official said describing the lack of situational awareness by the Navy crew. “They messed up pretty bad.”

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/24/navy-commodore-to-be-relieved-command-over-irans-capture-his-sailors.html

 

[dutch]

Reads like our guys effed up through inadequate training, leadership, preparation and order which led to a smack down by the other guys who were probably looking for a way to poke the bear.  

Live and learn.  Time to tighten up the training.

 

[HellToupee]

From the WSJ

WASHINGTON—The Obama administration secretly organized an airlift of $400 million worth of cash to Iran that coincided with the January release of four Americans detained in Tehran, according to U.S. and European officials and congressional staff briefed on the operation afterward.

Wooden pallets stacked with euros, Swiss francs and other currencies were flown into Iran on an unmarked cargo plane, according to these officials. The U.S. procured the money from the central banks of the Netherlands and Switzerland, they said.

The money represented the first installment of a $1.7 billion settlement the Obama administration reached with Iran to resolve a decades-old dispute over a failed arms deal signed just before the 1979 fall of Iran’s last monarch, Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.

 

[jonessed]

I think we missed a marketing opportunity there.  We could have dropped off $400MM worth of Ford F150s, M4s, and Javelins in Damascus for a trial run.  No middlemen for Iran and we get a prospective customer.  Win-win.