I finally just watched the rest of this. Pretty interesting. It makes me want to read his books, although I'll probably never get around to that.
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Is Atheism Irrational? NYTimes Opinion Piece (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Klimtology
- Start date
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
I've watched several of his debates on YouTube. Dude really speaks like he knows his ####. It's difficult to know if his interpretations, or his knowledge of the community's interpretations of biblical passages and their context are correct, but his command of the information certainly suggests that they are.
bueno
In a class by himself
We know that several "gospels" were written, some of which have been recently discovered. We know the stories were spread throughout the Mediterranean world prior to the Council of Nicaea determining which were "acceptable" and which were not. To think that the stories were not based on an historical figure takes wearing blinders IMO. To think the stories are the absolute truth also requires blinders. Jesus was very likely a zealot rabbi who was tortured and put to death. A cult grew up around his life. It turned into a religion. Not so hard to believe that.
cstu
Footballguy
Is there evidence of Christianity spreading around Jerusalem separate from Paul's teachings?
Very strange that there's no contemporary secular evidence of the 12 apostles.
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This doesn't seem like a good argument. We know quite certainly that religions can spread without being based on historical figures. It's happened plenty of times.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Matthew 1:1 This is the genealogy of a zealot rabbi who started a cult...
I had a small epiphany tonight: As an atheist that's pretty pissed off with religion right now, especially Islam that is responsible for so many murders recently, is there anything bad to be said for Hinduism? The largest and oldest of them all?
Karma
Reincarnation
Doesnt seem like such a bad set of ideas. Especially compared to all the negatives brought by the Abrahamic religions. Is there anything negative to say about Hinduism? Why don't we give them the microphone?
Karma
Reincarnation
Doesnt seem like such a bad set of ideas. Especially compared to all the negatives brought by the Abrahamic religions. Is there anything negative to say about Hinduism? Why don't we give them the microphone?
msommer
Footballguy
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Yeah, Most extremists in India are not Muslim – they are Hindu.
Believe it or not, there are even Buddhist terrorists.
I think Jainism is the only religion without violent extremists.
Believe it or not, there are even Buddhist terrorists.
I think Jainism is the only religion without violent extremists.
joffer
Footballguy
Who's being irrational here
http://kfor.com/2016/08/24/oklahoma-man-claims-childrens-home-rejected-his-donation-from-atheist-group/
MUSKOGEE, Okla. – An Oklahoma man says he was stunned when a good deed was refused because of his religion.
Matt Wilbourn told KJRH that he donated $100 to the Murrow Indian Children’s Home.
“At the bottom, it asks if there is any person or organization you want to put it in memory of and I put the Muskogee Atheist Community,” Wilbourn said.
A short time later, he says the home called and said that his donation was being refused because “it would go against everything they believe in.”
The employee at the home said if the name on the donation was not changed, it would be returned.
He spoke to other members of the Muskogee Atheist Community, who agreed to not take the money back and raised the total to $250.
However, the donation has still not been accepted.
Now, he has created a GoFundMe page to raise even more money for the children’s home. If the donation is still not accepted, Wilbourn says he will donate it to Camp Quest, a non-religious camp.
“Do things out of the goodness of your heart, whether it’s for religion or not, but don’t let religion come between you and someone who needs help and that’s what has happened here,” he said.
So far, the GoFundMe page has raised almost $8,000.
http://kfor.com/2016/08/24/oklahoma-man-claims-childrens-home-rejected-his-donation-from-atheist-group/
MUSKOGEE, Okla. – An Oklahoma man says he was stunned when a good deed was refused because of his religion.
Matt Wilbourn told KJRH that he donated $100 to the Murrow Indian Children’s Home.
“At the bottom, it asks if there is any person or organization you want to put it in memory of and I put the Muskogee Atheist Community,” Wilbourn said.
A short time later, he says the home called and said that his donation was being refused because “it would go against everything they believe in.”
The employee at the home said if the name on the donation was not changed, it would be returned.
He spoke to other members of the Muskogee Atheist Community, who agreed to not take the money back and raised the total to $250.
However, the donation has still not been accepted.
Now, he has created a GoFundMe page to raise even more money for the children’s home. If the donation is still not accepted, Wilbourn says he will donate it to Camp Quest, a non-religious camp.
“Do things out of the goodness of your heart, whether it’s for religion or not, but don’t let religion come between you and someone who needs help and that’s what has happened here,” he said.
So far, the GoFundMe page has raised almost $8,000.
CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
Today, November 15th is Openly Secular day. The FFA actually helped me get where I am today on the skeptic/atheist spectrum. I am very thankful for that.
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
Sam Harris
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
Carl Sagan
McGarnicle
Footballguy
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
Yea, no thanks. I don't need to announce my lack of belief, and I know it doesn't end well around here. Regardless, it just isn't something I walk around thinking about, isn't anything that I feel the need to project about me.
Not believing in invisible beings in the clouds isn't something I consider noteworthy.
I know my donkey stalker gets really upset at the pragmatic approach I take in real life.
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On the bright side, we are finally about to have a President of the United States whose atheism is pretty obvious. So maybe that ceiling has been broken for once and for all. (And it was the evangelicals who elected him!)
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Joe Summer
Footballguy
Evangelicals would vote for Satan himself if Satan promised to put a conservative on the Supreme Court.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Should do a lot to dispel the conception of atheists as loudmouthed, arrogant bullies. I'm encouraged.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
I noticed an unpracticed way to his effort to appear Christian, I did not ever come to think he was atheist.
What are we pointing to? His Corinthians screw up? What else?
There's no smoking gun. I'm just relying on my ... whatever the atheist version of gaydar is. When I watch him speak about his faith, it seems fairly clear to me that he is faking it.
Do others disagree? I'd be surprised if he is generally perceived as having sincerely held Christian beliefs, but I haven't seen a poll or anything.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I think it's possible that he's "not religious" but still believes in God as a proposition. I also wouldn't be shocked to find he turned to religion with more sincerity after a health scare or something to remind him or his mortality. He strikes me as the type to attempt the conversion between the stirrup and the ground.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Kinda like Barack "Secret Muslim" Obama, right?
CBusAlex
Footballguy
I don't know if "faking it" is quite the right phrase. He seems like one of those people that tell themselves they believe in God, even though their mental model of the world does not contain one.
David Dodds
Administrator
Do you believe in God? - Yes
I believe in 1 less god than you - That's completely irrational.
I believe in 1 less god than you - That's completely irrational.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Using "less" when "fewer" is the proper word - that's straight-up ignorant.
Obfuscating qualitative and quantitative to try to make a point that falls apart after about five minutes of contemplation - that's weak sauce.
matuski
Footballguy
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NCCommish
Footballguy
Absolute crock of crap. I can think of a lot of reasons we haven't encountered aliens. For instance maybe faster than light travel truly is impossible.
matuski
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
I wish I could "come out", but it's still not really acceptable, at least not in my corner of the globe. Don't get me wrong. I don't actively hide my atheism. Several close friends know about it. But, I don't advertise it either. I would love to have made some sort of public affirmation of my beliefs on Openly Secular day, but I just can't do that. Let's face it. It's easier in today's world to come out as gay, lesbian, even transgender than it is to say you're an atheist. And, it all got way less safe on Nov. 8 to come out as anything outside the norm.
But, agree with the props to the FFA. This is the one place where I can be Openly Secular.
This is geographical in nature? I've moved all around the country and have never felt threatened. I don't make it a point to advertise a non-belief, seems weird, but if the conversation turns to religion I'm not afraid to speak up. Don't feel very threatened by Trump either, how can you be forced to believe something.
CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
Somewhat geographical, but also in terms of my employer, my wife's employer, my kids school, etc. Private, religious schooling is big where I live.
And I don't feel threatened, just not wise to flaunt it. I don't think people really understand atheism. That's probably true to some degree in general, but I bet an atheist in New York City doesn't get a second look. I don't live in New York City in case you hadn't guessed. ?
rockaction
Footballguy
This is 90% of popular intellectual culture these days: progressives regurgitating progressivism to other progressives for nothing but the warm glow of being told “Yup, that was some good progressiving there”. Conservatives make fun of this incessantly, and they are right to do so.
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
Funny. I read that article and thought "Oh, Maurile found rockaction's blog."This is 90% of popular intellectual culture these days: progressives regurgitating progressivism to other progressives for nothing but the warm glow of being told “Yup, that was some good progressiving there”. Conservatives make fun of this incessantly, and they are right to do so.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, I get that. But I can't write as intelligently and dispassionately as he does.
But it's funny, because I can relate to what Slate Star Codex is saying. I think his point is that a lot of virtue signaling goes on where progressives aren't really trying to convince conservatives with their arguments, but rather speaking in condemnations and old platitudes that we're aware of, but disagree with.
To engage in signaling is one thing; to engage in debate is another.
His other point is the internecine war that modern atheists, especially on the internet, have brought upon themselves, even with modern progressives. It's a shaming exercise if you believe in God, really, replete with juvenilia and condescension. His question, I think, is what sets this special brand of atheist apart from your average progressive? How did they become black sheep within their own movement when even people like me are sympathetic to their claims? In a way, I understand this. I'm agnostic. But the level of derision with which internet atheists treat their opponents makes nobody sympathetic to their tactics and arguments. In fact, it makes people want to defend religionists and their ilk.
I find myself often in this camp. Sympathetic and agreeing with atheist or agnostic claims; sympathetic and agreeing with religious people that feel like they've been diminished for their beliefs in some way. I'd personally love to form a bridge between the two; but it seems so personally angry on both sides that I usually stay out of it.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Here is why it has become a shaming exercise - with the advent of the internet one literally has the bulk of the knowledge of the world at their fingertips. One doesn't have an excuse to remain ignorant of facts. I can pull up passages of the Bible (or whatever religious text) as quickly as I can the latest news about Evolution. In the early days of the internet I spent way too much time debating these topics before realizing the futility of trying to convince those who don't want to be convinced. It doesn't matter what sort of evidence you present - the response is invariably disbelief, dismissal, or being called a liar (usually indirectly). Any atheist who has put in time being earnest and polite in a debate quickly learns what the punchline is going to be. The tolerance of willful ignorance grows less and less until one reaches the point where he is condescending at the outset.
rockaction
Footballguy
I agree with lots of what you said, and can see the psychology that goes along with this debate, but they're ignorant of what? Of faith?
Some people just have faith in God existing rather than any doctrine. It's why Ayn Rand long ago said she didn't argue with irrationalists...there are no premises upon which to have the debate. It's faith that is religion, which isn't a rational thing, really, though others know this better than me.
Despite my usual political stomping around, I find it best to be humble in this debate for my own sake, usually. I also would expect most others to be humble when it comes to deeply held faiths. That's why I get what Slate Star Codex is saying; I had started using the term "internet atheism" back in 2011 because it seemed like a gang, a bully, even when I was sympathetic to agnostic claims. (I consider myself a non-practicing true agnostic, by the way. So atheist and agnostic.)
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
I think you have this reversed. It isn't that people aren't humble in regards to deeply held faiths - it is that those faiths aren't humble towards scientific fact.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm strictly talking socially and not debate-wise.
I do get what you're saying. When Christopher Hitchens was dying, I cringed over those I sympathized with saying things like "I'll pray for you," etc. It happens both ways. I just see what Slate Star Codex was trying to say. Anyway, I'm not sure what good it does me; I'm still not a theist and agnostic, but I also consider that deeply personal and not sociopolitical; so defending either side of the argument seems just off to me.
I probably was just gassing late-night about the progressive comment.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
I don't know. I mean, I don't go around knocking on doors proselytizing atheism nor have I ever met someone who does. I don't hold atheist gatherings and then ask my neighbors to join me in celebration. I also don't go around announcing "I'm an atheist" the same way someone of faith will casually say they are going to a church function. Most atheists let bygones be bygones. However, once that irrationalist/person of faith starts acting like their faith is fact then issues arise - this is the basis for much of the mocking and derision.
