Is Ben Roethlisberger as good as Tom Brady? (1 Viewer)

[Carolina Hustler]

like the last time and takes his team 78 yards in 2 minutes and wins the game with a perfect pass in the back corner of the end zone?

Why couldn't he have thrown his ONLY TD of the game before the last 2 mins?

Sucking all game and winning in the last 2 mins is dramatic, not good..

 

[Evilgrin 72]

like the last time and takes his team 78 yards in 2 minutes and wins the game with a perfect pass in the back corner of the end zone?

Why couldn't he have thrown his ONLY TD of the game before the last 2 mins?

Sucking all game and winning in the last 2 mins is dramatic, not good..

Come on now. You make valid points in this thread, but when you say this kind of stuff, it undermines your credibility. He didn't "suck all game," he played an excellent game. People put WAY too much emphasis on TD passes. Who gives a crap if a pass is scored through the air or the on the ground? The QBs job is to move the offense and generate points. If a QB goes 6-for-6 on a drive for 59 yards, takes the team all the way down the field, and then the tailback punches it in from the 2 yard line on first and goal, why does that diminish in any way what the QB accomplished moving the team down the field? That's why TD passes is probably the single worst way to evaluate a QB, but since this is a fantasy football site, it's given WAY too much importance.

 

[The Jerk]

like the last time and takes his team 78 yards in 2 minutes and wins the game with a perfect pass in the back corner of the end zone?

Why couldn't he have thrown his ONLY TD of the game before the last 2 mins?

Sucking all game and winning in the last 2 mins is dramatic, not good..

Come on now. You make valid points in this thread, but when you say this kind of stuff, it undermines your credibility. He didn't "suck all game," he played an excellent game. People put WAY too much emphasis on TD passes. Who gives a crap if a pass is scored through the air or the on the ground? The QBs job is to move the offense and generate points. If a QB goes 6-for-6 on a drive for 59 yards, takes the team all the way down the field, and then the tailback punches it in from the 2 yard line on first and goal, why does that diminish in any way what the QB accomplished moving the team down the field? That's why TD passes is probably the single worst way to evaluate a QB, but since this is a fantasy football site, it's given WAY too much importance.

Last week's AFCC win over the Jets is a perfect example of how TDs impact perception of a QBs value to the team. On the Steelers first drive, Hines Ward caught a 7-yard pass at the 1-yard line. This was the play on which Pouncey got hurt. On the Steelers late 2nd quarter drive, on an outlet pass to the left, Mendenhall slipped down just in front of Cromartie at the 2-yard line. Ben could easily have had two TD passes. Instead, Mendenhall ran the first in and Ben scored on a rollout for the second. Now I think TD passes have some validity to them, and truthfully, the overturned pass to Heath Miller and the interception thrown toward Sanders both could have also been TD passes had they been better thrown. However, the pure stats/passer rating attitude misses the most basic point of all football since the beginning of the sport. Offense is about scoring points. The QB is the most valuable member of the offense. If the offense scores, far more often than not the QB had a good drive.On the second TD drive that put the Steelers up 17-0, the Steelers gained 58 of the 66 yards on passes (and of course 2 on a Ben run) but the big 0 in the TD column is all many people see. I'm not a Ben apologist and don't think he should even be in any comparison with Brady, but to suggest he simply rides on the coattails of the rest of the Steelers team is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Godsbrother]

Sucking all game and winning in the last 2 mins is dramatic, not good..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

like the last time and takes his team 78 yards in 2 minutes and wins the game with a perfect pass in the back corner of the end zone?

Why couldn't he have thrown his ONLY TD of the game before the last 2 mins?

Sucking all game and winning in the last 2 mins is dramatic, not good..

Come on now. You make valid points in this thread, but when you say this kind of stuff, it undermines your credibility. He didn't "suck all game," he played an excellent game. People put WAY too much emphasis on TD passes. Who gives a crap if a pass is scored through the air or the on the ground? The QBs job is to move the offense and generate points. If a QB goes 6-for-6 on a drive for 59 yards, takes the team all the way down the field, and then the tailback punches it in from the 2 yard line on first and goal, why does that diminish in any way what the QB accomplished moving the team down the field? That's why TD passes is probably the single worst way to evaluate a QB, but since this is a fantasy football site, it's given WAY too much importance.

You're right, he didn't suck all game, but I wouldn't say that game showed greatness on his part.. In comparison, he sucked in the first SB he played in, he was along for the ride... In SB XLIII, I wouldn't say he had a great game.. Before that 2min play they had somewhere around 200 total offensive yards... Ben had thrown a pick (Steelers def bails him out with a reciprocating INT).. I don't think Ben showed greatness there at all..

 

[Ghost Rider]

Sorry, Evilgren, but saying Roethlisberger had an excellent game the whole game in that last Super Bowl just doesn't make a lot of sense. Before that last drive, the offense had scored 13 points and had barely over 200 total yards, and you just said that the QB's job is to generate offense and points, so how is that an excellent game? Even with the last drive, 20 points and 292 total yards is hardly an excellent game for the offense or the QB. I usually stick up for Roethlisberger in these discussions (when it comes to his play on the field), but let's be serious here.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Sorry, Evilgren, but saying Roethlisberger had an excellent game the whole game in that last Super Bowl just doesn't make a lot of sense. Before that last drive, the offense had scored 13 points and had barely over 200 total yards, and you just said that the QB's job is to generate offense and points, so how is that an excellent game? Even with the last drive, 20 points and 292 total yards is hardly an excellent game for the offense or the QB. I usually stick up for Roethlisberger in these discussions (when it comes to his play on the field), but let's be serious here.

He completed something like 70% of his passes and in addition to the two TD drives, he drove them inside the Arizona 2 yard line 2 other times, but based on the Steelers line/RBs inability to punch the ball in from short yardage all season long, Tomlin opted to settle for FGs. He also had something like 40-50 yards in passes nullified by holding penalties, including a tremendously clutch 3rd down conversion that would have come close to icing the game, but they ended up with a safety instead, followed by the Fitzgerald TD that wiped out their lead. Rather than crumble, he got the ball back and orchestrated maybe the best drive in SB history. The Steelers had NO ability to run the football in that game. They were one-dimensional, but Roethlisberger still pulled the game out and should have been MVP. Once again, stats don't always tell the whole tale. He played a damned fine game in SB XLIII and no one is going to convince me otherwise.

 

[The Westin]

...how about if he plays WELL like the last time and takes his team 78 yards in 2 minutes and wins the game with a perfect pass in the back corner of the end zone? three things will be said in this thread:1. even though he's one of only a few players in league history with a 500 yd passing game, had a season of over 30 TDs, passed for 4300 yds last year, has as many great playoff games as tom brady, and has one of the best YPAs in league history, he's just a "game manager." yep, just another trent dilfer. 2. even though he has a career passer rating higher than drew brees and joe montana, he only has a top 5 winning % all-time at the position and the 2nd best in the playoffs because of the defense...which was horrible last year but let's not let that get in the way of the narrative...it'll only confuse things. also, he cant even be as good as david garrard because garrard made the pro bowl. 3. even though he was the offensive rookie of the year and has as many (or more, depending on the source) come-from-behind wins than any other qb since he came into the league (this one is really confusing because that "great defense/running game" argument is kind of built on the idea that theyre always ahead) and outplayed peyton manning decisively in their playoff matchup in 2006, he's clearly inferior to philip rivers who was the best fantas...err, the best qb in the league on the team with the top ranked offense and defense who somehow didnt make the playoffs because they dont make big plays when it counts. also, did i mention that drew brees had a TON of picks this year? of course it turns out he was hurt...although i seem to recall ben breaking a bone in his foot while he kept playing pretty damned good football. oh...and his nose. i could be wrong though. i'd bet that previous guy's house on it.

1. Not Dilfer, but not single handedly responsible for the win either. You think TD Passes are a dumb way to rank QB's....I agree. So are Super Bowl wins.2. I agree Pro Bowl is worthless. Career passer rating higher than Montana? Chad Pennington is higher than Marino.Alex Smith is higher than Bradshaw.Shaun Hill is higher than Troy AIkman.What's your point?3. You're just rambling now. But don't tell me pro bowls are worthless then brag about rookie of the year in the next breath. Don't bring up one good playoff game. I'd take Rivers over Ben...but I can see it either way. Brees had a sub-par year, no doubt...but one year doesn't make a QB. I'd still take Brees over Ben.Again...you're getting sensitive. Nobody is saying Ben sucks. He's just not the second coming of Jesus Christ like you want him to be because he won a couple Super Bowls. It's easier when your defense is great...year after year.If the Packers win on Sunday, every columnist in America will wake up Monday morning and proclaim Aaron Rodgers is now "Elite", regardless of how he plays. I think that's absolute crap. There is WAY too much that goes into winning a game to give ONE player all the credit. But if the Packers win...they will all put Aaron in the top 3, some will even say top 2 or the best...And THAT is the only reason anyone even mentions Roethlisberger as elite. Because his team (which just happens to consistently have a top 3 defense) won the big game.Ben is goodBen is clutchBen is top 7 in the NFL. Ben is not elite, his defense is.

 

[The Jerk]

Sorry, Evilgren, but saying Roethlisberger had an excellent game the whole game in that last Super Bowl just doesn't make a lot of sense. Before that last drive, the offense had scored 13 points and had barely over 200 total yards, and you just said that the QB's job is to generate offense and points, so how is that an excellent game? Even with the last drive, 20 points and 292 total yards is hardly an excellent game for the offense or the QB. I usually stick up for Roethlisberger in these discussions (when it comes to his play on the field), but let's be serious here.

I'm somewhere between EG72 and Ghost Rider here.I don't think Ben had an excellent Super Bowl, but I distinctly remember how often Ben made significant plays under considerable duress.In the first quarter TD drive that put the Steelers up to 10-0, all the play by play says is Roethlisberger to Miller for 11 yards on a 3rd and 10. People who saw the game know that Ben eluded a considerable pass rush with a pirouette and spin out of the pocket, then hit Heath out to the left to gain a new set of downs.Similarly, in starting the winning TD drive on a first and 20, Darnell Dockett (I think), who already had 3 sacks on the day, was more or less unblocked and nearly sacked Ben at about the 4-yard line. Ben avoided the sack, then completed a 14-yard pass to Holmes. Instead of 2nd and 28, it was 2nd and 6, and the drive was underway.People rightly consider the advantage Ben has compared to other QBs in terms of having a top defense helping him win games and shorten fields. However, people rarely seem to consider how downright awful the offensive line has been during most of his time in Pittsburgh. Evaluations of Roethlisberger really should consider both aspects of his team situation, not just the defense.

 

[PhD]

...how about if he plays WELL like the last time and takes his team 78 yards in 2 minutes and wins the game with a perfect pass in the back corner of the end zone? three things will be said in this thread:

1. even though he's one of only a few players in league history with a 500 yd passing game, had a season of over 30 TDs, passed for 4300 yds last year, has as many great playoff games as tom brady, and has one of the best YPAs in league history, he's just a "game manager." yep, just another trent dilfer.

2. even though he has a career passer rating higher than drew brees and joe montana, he only has a top 5 winning % all-time at the position and the 2nd best in the playoffs because of the defense...which was horrible last year but let's not let that get in the way of the narrative...it'll only confuse things. also, he cant even be as good as david garrard because garrard made the pro bowl.

3. even though he was the offensive rookie of the year and has as many (or more, depending on the source) come-from-behind wins than any other qb since he came into the league (this one is really confusing because that "great defense/running game" argument is kind of built on the idea that theyre always ahead) and outplayed peyton manning decisively in their playoff matchup in 2006, he's clearly inferior to philip rivers who was the best fantas...err, the best qb in the league on the team with the top ranked offense and defense who somehow didnt make the playoffs because they dont make big plays when it counts. also, did i mention that drew brees had a TON of picks this year? of course it turns out he was hurt...although i seem to recall ben breaking a bone in his foot while he kept playing pretty damned good football. oh...and his nose. i could be wrong though.

i'd bet that previous guy's house on it.

1. Not Dilfer, but not single handedly responsible for the win either. You think TD Passes are a dumb way to rank QB's....I agree. So are Super Bowl wins.2. I agree Pro Bowl is worthless. Career passer rating higher than Montana?

Chad Pennington is higher than Marino.

Alex Smith is higher than Bradshaw.

Shaun Hill is higher than Troy AIkman.

What's your point?

3. You're just rambling now. But don't tell me pro bowls are worthless then brag about rookie of the year in the next breath.

Don't bring up one good playoff game.

I'd take Rivers over Ben...but I can see it either way.

Brees had a sub-par year, no doubt...but one year doesn't make a QB. I'd still take Brees over Ben.

Again...you're getting sensitive. Nobody is saying Ben sucks. He's just not the second coming of Jesus Christ like you want him to be because he won a couple Super Bowls. It's easier when your defense is great...year after year.

If the Packers win on Sunday, every columnist in America will wake up Monday morning and proclaim Aaron Rodgers is now "Elite", regardless of how he plays. I think that's absolute crap. There is WAY too much that goes into winning a game to give ONE player all the credit. But if the Packers win...they will all put Aaron in the top 3, some will even say top 2 or the best...And THAT is the only reason anyone even mentions Roethlisberger as elite. Because his team (which just happens to consistently have a top 3 defense) won the big game.

Ben is good

Ben is clutch

Ben is top 7 in the NFL.

Ben is not elite, his defense is.

And this is it exactly. Neither one of them, Brady or Roethlisberger is the second coming of Jesus Christ as we want them to be. - Roethlisberger benefits from a great defense while Brady benefits from a very very good defense and fantastic special teams play.

- Each have won superbowls and demonstrated the capacity for the dramatic clutch play.

- Ben didn't play well in one of his superbowl victories while Brady allegedly cheated in at least one of his.

- Personally, Ben has allegedly sexually assaulted a girl while Brady has gotten his girlfriend pregnant and then dumped her.

- Brady has been to more probowls perhaps because (a) he is already one of the incumbent QB's - hard to remove for another up and coming QB, (b) he is more popular - which may be because (b1) his women are hot actress/model types while Ben's are college girls and (b2) it looks better to most people if you play well while alledgedly cheating than if you don't cheat and look bad.

looks like a close race ...

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

like the last time and takes his team 78 yards in 2 minutes and wins the game with a perfect pass in the back corner of the end zone?

Why couldn't he have thrown his ONLY TD of the game before the last 2 mins?

Sucking all game and winning in the last 2 mins is dramatic, not good..

again... don't cherry pick... as it has been pointed out quite a few times. being up 21-10 at the half, the Steelers "shut it down" in the second half like they always do. As a Steelers fan I cannot stand this type of gameplan but BECAUSE of the confidence that they have in their defense they believe in taking their foot off the opponent's throat and shortening the game. I would ask you to go back and watch the second half of that game again and look at the breakdown of the plays where they asked Ben to throw the ball in the second half but I'm pretty sure you won't take the time and do it objectively so don't worry about it. It is very similar to how the Jets game played out last Sunday.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

- Ben didn't play well in one of his superbowl victories while Brady allegedly cheated in at least one of his.

What?..

- Personally, Ben has allegedly sexually assaulted a girl while Brady has gotten his girlfriend pregnant and then dumped her.

Ben allegedly assaulted multiple girls...And Brady getting his girlfriend pregnant is hardly in the same realm of comparison...

- Brady has been to more probowls perhaps because (a) he is already one of the incumbent QB's - hard to remove for another up and coming QB, (b) he is more popular - which may be because (b1) his women are hot actress/model types while Ben's are college girls and (b2) it looks better to most people if you play well while alledgedly cheating than if you don't cheat and look bad.

This one sounds like grasping at straws... Brady has been to more ProBowls because Brady is a better QB.. And Ben is more like a system QB while Brady is the classic great football talent... Brady is more likely to dominate a football game than Ben is..

 

[Steeler]

I haven't clicked on this thread in a few days... for those "Ben is not elite" people, can he do anything in this game to change your mind?

For example, if the game turns into a shootout like the last meeting and the Steelers win the game, would that change your mind? At least a little bit?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

like the last time and takes his team 78 yards in 2 minutes and wins the game with a perfect pass in the back corner of the end zone?

Why couldn't he have thrown his ONLY TD of the game before the last 2 mins?

Sucking all game and winning in the last 2 mins is dramatic, not good..

again... don't cherry pick... as it has been pointed out quite a few times. being up 21-10 at the half, the Steelers "shut it down" in the second half like they always do. As a Steelers fan I cannot stand this type of gameplan but BECAUSE of the confidence that they have in their defense they believe in taking their foot off the opponent's throat and shortening the game. I would ask you to go back and watch the second half of that game again and look at the breakdown of the plays where they asked Ben to throw the ball in the second half but I'm pretty sure you won't take the time and do it objectively so don't worry about it. It is very similar to how the Jets game played out last Sunday.

Sorry, it was 17-7 at the half... The cards were always in that game as they had a high scoring offense... The Steelers aren't stupid, they wouldn't hunker down with a 10 point lead against what was one of the fastest scoring offenses that season...

Also, they started the second half with their longest sustained drive of the game with 16 plays and 79 yards.. 9 of which were pass plays..., one was a field goal attempt..., 6 were running plays...

Even excluding that Holmes TD drive, they passed a higher percentage in the second half then they did in the first.. And scored less points... Maybe you're thinking of a different game?

Jets game is no comparison, completely different situation, and completely different dynamic... The games were in no way similar...

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I haven't clicked on this thread in a few days... for those "Ben is not elite" people, can he do anything in this game to change your mind?For example, if the game turns into a shootout like the last meeting and the Steelers win the game, would that change your mind? At least a little bit?

If Ben has an MVP caliber game, I'd rethink it...And most likely the Packers will score often leaving it in Ben's hands... I'd like to see that strong offensive play but I just don't think Ben can keep up..

 

[The Westin]

I haven't clicked on this thread in a few days... for those "Ben is not elite" people, can he do anything in this game to change your mind?For example, if the game turns into a shootout like the last meeting and the Steelers win the game, would that change your mind? At least a little bit?

No, not a shootout, that's meaningless. If he has a great performance for 4 quarters I would definitely see more value in that than just a lot of yards. If he did that, even if they lost.... I would be more impressed than an average performance and a win...I think Roethlisberger is on the level of Brees/Rivers/Rodgers and I think that's good company to be in. For the most part, I think what a guy does over an entire season is more indicative of what kind of player he is, as opposed to just one game. Obviously his performance in the Super Bowl would carry a lot more weight than a normal game but still an entire season means more to me.

 

[David Yudkin]

I haven't clicked on this thread in a few days... for those "Ben is not elite" people, can he do anything in this game to change your mind?For example, if the game turns into a shootout like the last meeting and the Steelers win the game, would that change your mind? At least a little bit?

If PIT wins in a shootout and Ben throws for 350 yards but with 1 TD and 3 INT on 28 of 50 passing attempts (say with 2 PIT scores on defense and set up the offense on a short field two other times), would that be considered a good game? His QB rating would be 59, yet he still won and apparently that's all that matters.I suppose we need to define what elite is. I suggested early that in my mind he falls in the Top 6-10 QBs (and somehow that seemed to settle on #7 based on other people's input). If elite = Top 5, then in my book he's not elite (but he's close). However, at the same age and timeframe in their careers, I probably would not have said Brady was elite either.As for what he can change in his game, I think it's more of continuing to win in the regular season and post season combined with putting up some gaudier passing numbers. If the Steelers game plan prevents that, then he may not get higher on the food chain given the wealth of riches at the QB position these days. He could also start getting more hardware (Pro Bowls, MVPs, etc.) and that would help his cause. I think he's capable of that, it's just a question of whether he will and whether the PIT game planning will allow that.The other thing we don't know is if the PIT defense will continue to be solid. At one point, the Pats defense looked like they were going to be near the top of the league every season, but as time progressed the defense slipped. The same thing could happen to the Steelers and that would be the time that Roethlisberger could shine.One thing worth noting is that the years PIT did not have a Top 3 defense, their record suffered. When the defense ranked 11th and 12th in points allowed, the Steelers went 8-8 and 9-7. It may just be a coincidence, but I figured I point that out as food for thought.

 

[treat88]

I suppose we need to define what elite is.

15 pages in and this is just barely coming to mind?(not a shot at you DY...just sayin.)Depending on how it's defined, Brady will be elite in some areas of QB play, Ben in others, Manning and Rivers in yet other areas.They all do some things very well and some things less so.There is really no clear separation amongst them.

 

[PhD]

Yudkin's last post got me thinking - in the Pats games I don't recall seeing Brady marching his teams down the entire field ie, starting from the 10 (or worse) and getting the team in for the TD. He seemed to more often start with much better field position and move his team into good field goal position at the end of the big games. If that is indeed the case does that make Brady less of a QB because of great special teams play in the same manner that Ben is less of a QB because of the great Steeler Defenses?

 

[southeastjerome]

People in this thread aren't actually claiming Ben is as good as Brady are they? I take joy in seeing Brady fail, but he's undoubtedly a better QB than Ben is. Brady was bad against the Jets, but still had a better game than Roethlisberger did.

 

[Godsbrother]

People in this thread aren't actually claiming Ben is as good as Brady are they? I take joy in seeing Brady fail, but he's undoubtedly a better QB than Ben is. Brady was bad against the Jets, but still had a better game than Roethlisberger did.

I would bet a ton of money that Brady doesn't feel this way.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

People in this thread aren't actually claiming Ben is as good as Brady are they? I take joy in seeing Brady fail, but he's undoubtedly a better QB than Ben is. Brady was bad against the Jets, but still had a better game than Roethlisberger did.

I would bet a ton of money that Brady doesn't feel this way.

There are no individual wins... The team lost.. As a QB, Brady had a better game, as a team player he didn't...

 

[Godsbrother]

People in this thread aren't actually claiming Ben is as good as Brady are they? I take joy in seeing Brady fail, but he's undoubtedly a better QB than Ben is. Brady was bad against the Jets, but still had a better game than Roethlisberger did.

I would bet a ton of money that Brady doesn't feel this way.

There are no individual wins... The team lost.. As a QB, Brady had a better game, as a team player he didn't...

While I agree with this I still that if you ask Brady who had the better game he would say Roethlisberger. Stat lines don't tell the whole story, the players understand this but the FF community does not. As Belichik says "stats are for losers".

 

[Carolina Hustler]

People in this thread aren't actually claiming Ben is as good as Brady are they? I take joy in seeing Brady fail, but he's undoubtedly a better QB than Ben is. Brady was bad against the Jets, but still had a better game than Roethlisberger did.

I would bet a ton of money that Brady doesn't feel this way.

There are no individual wins... The team lost.. As a QB, Brady had a better game, as a team player he didn't...

While I agree with this I still that if you ask Brady who had the better game he would say Roethlisberger. Stat lines don't tell the whole story, the players understand this but the FF community does not. As Belichik says "stats are for losers".

If you took away the team win aspect and stripped it down to individual ability and performance, anyone could tell you Brady was better... Brady also wouldn't grade himself against another QB, and Belichik wouldn't involve himself in a Brady vs Ben discussion either.. Not really very strong points there.. They have an agenda to win as a team...

That doesn't change the fact that as individual QB's Brady is better than Ben..

 

[Godsbrother]

That doesn't change the fact that as individual QB's Brady is better than Ben..

If we are talking FF then I agree. If we are talking about helping your team advance in the playoffs then I disagree.

 

[treat88]

That doesn't change the fact that as individual QB's Brady is better than Ben..

Given the length of the discussion and the relevant points on all sides of the topic, I think you are using this word disingenuously. But I'm sure you knew that when you typed it.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

That doesn't change the fact that as individual QB's Brady is better than Ben..

If we are talking FF then I agree. If we are talking about helping your team advance in the playoffs then I disagree.

What if we're talking about scoring, yardage, regular season wins, INT's, or TD's?Ben winning one more game post season than Brady doesn't prove anything if your qualifier is SB wins...And all wins are a team effort anyways.. Also between teams like Jets, Steelers, NE... they could go 5/5 on 10 games.. It's about whichever team, as a whole, has a better day.. better game.. on one game.. Consistant production is a better qualifier, which can be better shown for an individual with stats rather than team wins..You can't base your individual player assessment on wins alone when Ben can perform as poorly as he did against Seattle in his first SB and still walk away with a win... The team won in spite of his performance..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

That doesn't change the fact that as individual QB's Brady is better than Ben..

Given the length of the discussion and the relevant points on all sides of the topic, I think you are using this word disingenuously. But I'm sure you knew that when you typed it.

Even the Ben backers in this thread have relented on that front for the most part.. There aren't many people who think Ben is on par with Brady, but there are quite a few that think Brady is better than Ben..

But your right, the word "fact" wasn't intended in that quote as the definition implies, not sure how you pointing that out adds to the discussion, but if you must...

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

PFT

As a playoff passer, Ben Roethlisberger is Tom Brady’s equal

Posted by Michael David Smith on February 1, 2011, 9:01 AM EST

Fans love to debate which quarterback is the best of them all, which is why a discussion of whether Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger is as good Tom Brady and Peyton Manning is our most-commented post of the last week. But when Roethlisberger was asked whether he thinks he’s up there with Brady and Manning, he gave a diplomatic answer.

“It probably depends on who you ask,” Roethlisberger said. “Every analyst and everybody have their opinions and that’s what they’re paid to do. I think they’re the best in the game. . . . I’d put Aaron Rodgers up there.”

Brady’s reputation is built largely on what he’s done in the playoffs, but it’s worth noting that Roethlisberger has comparable numbers to Brady in the postseason.

As I wrote in today’s Wall Street Journal, Brady’s career playoff passer rating is 85.7. Roethlisberger’s is 85.4. They’re basically equals in playoff passing efficiency.

And with a win on Sunday, they’ll also be equals in Super Bowl rings. Considering that Roethlisberger is also five years younger than Brady, it’s easy to envision, when both of their careers are over, Roethlisberger being considered one of the all-time great quarterbacks — and better than Brady.

 

[Godsbrother]

That doesn't change the fact that as individual QB's Brady is better than Ben..

If we are talking FF then I agree. If we are talking about helping your team advance in the playoffs then I disagree.

What if we're talking about scoring, yardage, regular season wins, INT's, or TD's?Ben winning one more game post season than Brady doesn't prove anything if your qualifier is SB wins...

And all wins are a team effort anyways.. Also between teams like Jets, Steelers, NE... they could go 5/5 on 10 games.. It's about whichever team, as a whole, has a better day.. better game.. on one game.. Consistant production is a better qualifier, which can be better shown for an individual with stats rather than team wins..

You can't base your individual player assessment on wins alone when Ben can perform as poorly as he did against Seattle in his first SB and still walk away with a win... The team won in spite of his performance..

We were talking about the Jets game. In that game the team needed Roethlisberger to direct drives that led to 17 points and to move the chains when they needed to run the clock out. Roethlisberger delivered and the team won the game. In my opinion Ben had the better game than Brady did vs the Jets.Take the stats if you want, I will take the win.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

In multiple seasons, from 1960 to 2010, from 1st to 7th season, in the regular season and playoffs, team won game, QB credited with 4th quarter comeback, sorted by most games matching criteria.



Rk Player From To Tm W L T Count

1 Ben Roethlisberger 2004 2010 PIT 19 0 0 19

2 Peyton Manning 1998 2004 IND 18 0 0 18

3 John Elway* 1983 1989 DEN 17 0 0 17

4 Tom Brady 2001 2006 NWE 16 0 0 16

5 Jake Plummer 1997 2003 ARI/DEN 16 0 0 16

6 Drew Bledsoe 1993 1999 NWE 15 0 0 15

7 Steve Bartkowski 1978 1981 ATL 14 0 0 14

8 Jim Kelly* 1987 1992 BUF 14 0 0 14

9 Bernie Kosar 1985 1991 CLE 14 0 0 14

10 Eli Manning 2004 2010 NYG 14 0 0 14

Link

 

[Carolina Hustler]

PFT

As a playoff passer, Ben Roethlisberger is Tom Brady’s equal

Posted by Michael David Smith on February 1, 2011, 9:01 AM EST

Fans love to debate which quarterback is the best of them all, which is why a discussion of whether Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger is as good Tom Brady and Peyton Manning is our most-commented post of the last week. But when Roethlisberger was asked whether he thinks he’s up there with Brady and Manning, he gave a diplomatic answer.

“It probably depends on who you ask,” Roethlisberger said. “Every analyst and everybody have their opinions and that’s what they’re paid to do. I think they’re the best in the game. . . . I’d put Aaron Rodgers up there.”

Brady’s reputation is built largely on what he’s done in the playoffs, but it’s worth noting that Roethlisberger has comparable numbers to Brady in the postseason.

As I wrote in today’s Wall Street Journal, Brady’s career playoff passer rating is 85.7. Roethlisberger’s is 85.4. They’re basically equals in playoff passing efficiency.

And with a win on Sunday, they’ll also be equals in Super Bowl rings. Considering that Roethlisberger is also five years younger than Brady, it’s easy to envision, when both of their careers are over, Roethlisberger being considered one of the all-time great quarterbacks — and better than Brady.

Pre-SB fluff piece. If Ben has a bad game and the Steelers lose the SB.. You watch how quickly these same types rip Ben apart... It'll be an altogether different set of criteria then won't it?

 

[munchkin]

That doesn't change the fact that as individual QB's Brady is better than Ben..

If we are talking FF then I agree. If we are talking about helping your team advance in the playoffs then I disagree.

With helping being the operative word here. Brady did not have a good playoff game against the Jets. Brady did play better than Roethlisberger in the one game they faced each other this year; of course Ben's WR's didn't HELP him very much in that game early on when results mattered.The Steelers played a more balanced game against the Jets than the Pats did. The Steelers took advantage of the poor tackling on the Jets part in the first half and the defense did enough in the second half while Ben made the critical third down plays when he had too.

Brady threw an interception on the first drive while Crumpler dropped a critical pass in the End Zone giving the Jets the impetus they needed to stay in the game. Another critical Special Teams error hurt the Patriots team at the end of the 2nd qtr.

Roethlisberger and the Steelers deserve to be in the SB because they made the plays when they had to in a critical playoff game; the Pats didn't.

Against Arizona Holmes makes a great catch on a great throw to seal the game and the team wins. Roethlisberger played horribly in the team's first SB win under his guidance.

Even if the Steelers don't win another SB under Ben and he continues to make clutch plays and the team continues having the success they have had he will likely have his bust in the HOF. Brady is a no brainer.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

That doesn't change the fact that as individual QB's Brady is better than Ben..

If we are talking FF then I agree. If we are talking about helping your team advance in the playoffs then I disagree.

What if we're talking about scoring, yardage, regular season wins, INT's, or TD's?Ben winning one more game post season than Brady doesn't prove anything if your qualifier is SB wins...

And all wins are a team effort anyways.. Also between teams like Jets, Steelers, NE... they could go 5/5 on 10 games.. It's about whichever team, as a whole, has a better day.. better game.. on one game.. Consistant production is a better qualifier, which can be better shown for an individual with stats rather than team wins..

You can't base your individual player assessment on wins alone when Ben can perform as poorly as he did against Seattle in his first SB and still walk away with a win... The team won in spite of his performance..

We were talking about the Jets game. In that game the team needed Roethlisberger to direct drives that led to 17 points and to move the chains when they needed to run the clock out. Roethlisberger delivered and the team won the game. In my opinion Ben had the better game than Brady did vs the Jets.Take the stats if you want, I will take the win.

So your criteria changes depending on which game we're talking about?

 

[r3t2]

...how about if he plays WELL like the last time and takes his team 78 yards in 2 minutes and wins the game with a perfect pass in the back corner of the end zone? three things will be said in this thread:1. even though he's one of only a few players in league history with a 500 yd passing game, had a season of over 30 TDs, passed for 4300 yds last year, has as many great playoff games as tom brady, and has one of the best YPAs in league history, he's just a "game manager." yep, just another trent dilfer. 2. even though he has a career passer rating higher than drew brees and joe montana, he only has a top 5 winning % all-time at the position and the 2nd best in the playoffs because of the defense...which was horrible last year but let's not let that get in the way of the narrative...it'll only confuse things. also, he cant even be as good as david garrard because garrard made the pro bowl. 3. even though he was the offensive rookie of the year and has as many (or more, depending on the source) come-from-behind wins than any other qb since he came into the league (this one is really confusing because that "great defense/running game" argument is kind of built on the idea that theyre always ahead) and outplayed peyton manning decisively in their playoff matchup in 2006, he's clearly inferior to philip rivers who was the best fantas...err, the best qb in the league on the team with the top ranked offense and defense who somehow didnt make the playoffs because they dont make big plays when it counts. also, did i mention that drew brees had a TON of picks this year? of course it turns out he was hurt...although i seem to recall ben breaking a bone in his foot while he kept playing pretty damned good football. oh...and his nose. i could be wrong though. i'd bet that previous guy's house on it.

1. Not Dilfer, but not single handedly responsible for the win either. You think TD Passes are a dumb way to rank QB's....I agree. So are Super Bowl wins.2. I agree Pro Bowl is worthless. Career passer rating higher than Montana? Chad Pennington is higher than Marino.Alex Smith is higher than Bradshaw.Shaun Hill is higher than Troy AIkman.What's your point?3. You're just rambling now. But don't tell me pro bowls are worthless then brag about rookie of the year in the next breath. Don't bring up one good playoff game. I'd take Rivers over Ben...but I can see it either way. Brees had a sub-par year, no doubt...but one year doesn't make a QB. I'd still take Brees over Ben.Again...you're getting sensitive. Nobody is saying Ben sucks. He's just not the second coming of Jesus Christ like you want him to be because he won a couple Super Bowls. It's easier when your defense is great...year after year.If the Packers win on Sunday, every columnist in America will wake up Monday morning and proclaim Aaron Rodgers is now "Elite", regardless of how he plays. I think that's absolute crap. There is WAY too much that goes into winning a game to give ONE player all the credit. But if the Packers win...they will all put Aaron in the top 3, some will even say top 2 or the best...And THAT is the only reason anyone even mentions Roethlisberger as elite. Because his team (which just happens to consistently have a top 3 defense) won the big game.Ben is goodBen is clutchBen is top 7 in the NFL. Ben is not elite, his defense is.

this discussion baffles me. i dont mean that to be condescending at all. i really am stunned that so many people think ben isn't a top 5 qb in the league. i think he's closer to #1 than #7. and i was one of the people that wanted him run out of town because he's a creep. it still wouldnt be terrible if it happened, but the steelers would stop going to the super bowl. btw, all their top 3 defenses in the 90s didnt win anything. five straight years they were in the top 3 in pts or yds.

 

[Godsbrother]

That doesn't change the fact that as individual QB's Brady is better than Ben..

If we are talking FF then I agree. If we are talking about helping your team advance in the playoffs then I disagree.

What if we're talking about scoring, yardage, regular season wins, INT's, or TD's?Ben winning one more game post season than Brady doesn't prove anything if your qualifier is SB wins...

And all wins are a team effort anyways.. Also between teams like Jets, Steelers, NE... they could go 5/5 on 10 games.. It's about whichever team, as a whole, has a better day.. better game.. on one game.. Consistant production is a better qualifier, which can be better shown for an individual with stats rather than team wins..

You can't base your individual player assessment on wins alone when Ben can perform as poorly as he did against Seattle in his first SB and still walk away with a win... The team won in spite of his performance..

We were talking about the Jets game. In that game the team needed Roethlisberger to direct drives that led to 17 points and to move the chains when they needed to run the clock out. Roethlisberger delivered and the team won the game. In my opinion Ben had the better game than Brady did vs the Jets.Take the stats if you want, I will take the win.

So your criteria changes depending on which game we're talking about?

Sure. I base my assessment on a player based on what they did in the game to help their team win. Going by pure stats alone does not always tell the whole story.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

So your criteria changes depending on which game we're talking about?

Sure. I base my assessment on a player based on what they did in the game to help their team win. Going by pure stats alone does not always tell the whole story.

And your assessment of Ben in the first SB?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

...how about if he plays WELL like the last time and takes his team 78 yards in 2 minutes and wins the game with a perfect pass in the back corner of the end zone? three things will be said in this thread:

1. even though he's one of only a few players in league history with a 500 yd passing game, had a season of over 30 TDs, passed for 4300 yds last year, has as many great playoff games as tom brady, and has one of the best YPAs in league history, he's just a "game manager." yep, just another trent dilfer.

2. even though he has a career passer rating higher than drew brees and joe montana, he only has a top 5 winning % all-time at the position and the 2nd best in the playoffs because of the defense...which was horrible last year but let's not let that get in the way of the narrative...it'll only confuse things. also, he cant even be as good as david garrard because garrard made the pro bowl.

3. even though he was the offensive rookie of the year and has as many (or more, depending on the source) come-from-behind wins than any other qb since he came into the league (this one is really confusing because that "great defense/running game" argument is kind of built on the idea that theyre always ahead) and outplayed peyton manning decisively in their playoff matchup in 2006, he's clearly inferior to philip rivers who was the best fantas...err, the best qb in the league on the team with the top ranked offense and defense who somehow didnt make the playoffs because they dont make big plays when it counts. also, did i mention that drew brees had a TON of picks this year? of course it turns out he was hurt...although i seem to recall ben breaking a bone in his foot while he kept playing pretty damned good football. oh...and his nose. i could be wrong though.

i'd bet that previous guy's house on it.

1. Not Dilfer, but not single handedly responsible for the win either. You think TD Passes are a dumb way to rank QB's....I agree. So are Super Bowl wins.2. I agree Pro Bowl is worthless. Career passer rating higher than Montana?

Chad Pennington is higher than Marino.

Alex Smith is higher than Bradshaw.

Shaun Hill is higher than Troy AIkman.

What's your point?

3. You're just rambling now. But don't tell me pro bowls are worthless then brag about rookie of the year in the next breath.

Don't bring up one good playoff game.

I'd take Rivers over Ben...but I can see it either way.

Brees had a sub-par year, no doubt...but one year doesn't make a QB. I'd still take Brees over Ben.

Again...you're getting sensitive. Nobody is saying Ben sucks. He's just not the second coming of Jesus Christ like you want him to be because he won a couple Super Bowls. It's easier when your defense is great...year after year.

If the Packers win on Sunday, every columnist in America will wake up Monday morning and proclaim Aaron Rodgers is now "Elite", regardless of how he plays. I think that's absolute crap. There is WAY too much that goes into winning a game to give ONE player all the credit. But if the Packers win...they will all put Aaron in the top 3, some will even say top 2 or the best...And THAT is the only reason anyone even mentions Roethlisberger as elite. Because his team (which just happens to consistently have a top 3 defense) won the big game.

Ben is good

Ben is clutch

Ben is top 7 in the NFL.

Ben is not elite, his defense is.

this discussion baffles me. i dont mean that to be condescending at all. i really am stunned that so many people think ben isn't a top 5 qb in the league. i think he's closer to #1 than #7. and i was one of the people that wanted him run out of town because he's a creep. it still wouldnt be terrible if it happened, but the steelers would stop going to the super bowl.

btw, all their top 3 defenses in the 90s didnt win anything. five straight years they were in the top 3 in pts or yds.

You really think so? You don't think that team is good enough to go with a different QB?

 

[Godsbrother]

So your criteria changes depending on which game we're talking about?

Sure. I base my assessment on a player based on what they did in the game to help their team win. Going by pure stats alone does not always tell the whole story.

And your assessment of Ben in the first SB?

He did not play a good game in SB XL, no doubt about that. However he was their best player in the 3 road playoff games leading up to SB XL and without him the Steelers wouldn't have been there to win it.

 

[Ballstein]

Big Ben has had more individual clutch td's that stand out than Brady. Brady sets up fg well.

 

[r3t2]

...how about if he plays WELL like the last time and takes his team 78 yards in 2 minutes and wins the game with a perfect pass in the back corner of the end zone? three things will be said in this thread:

1. even though he's one of only a few players in league history with a 500 yd passing game, had a season of over 30 TDs, passed for 4300 yds last year, has as many great playoff games as tom brady, and has one of the best YPAs in league history, he's just a "game manager." yep, just another trent dilfer.

2. even though he has a career passer rating higher than drew brees and joe montana, he only has a top 5 winning % all-time at the position and the 2nd best in the playoffs because of the defense...which was horrible last year but let's not let that get in the way of the narrative...it'll only confuse things. also, he cant even be as good as david garrard because garrard made the pro bowl.

3. even though he was the offensive rookie of the year and has as many (or more, depending on the source) come-from-behind wins than any other qb since he came into the league (this one is really confusing because that "great defense/running game" argument is kind of built on the idea that theyre always ahead) and outplayed peyton manning decisively in their playoff matchup in 2006, he's clearly inferior to philip rivers who was the best fantas...err, the best qb in the league on the team with the top ranked offense and defense who somehow didnt make the playoffs because they dont make big plays when it counts. also, did i mention that drew brees had a TON of picks this year? of course it turns out he was hurt...although i seem to recall ben breaking a bone in his foot while he kept playing pretty damned good football. oh...and his nose. i could be wrong though.

i'd bet that previous guy's house on it.

1. Not Dilfer, but not single handedly responsible for the win either. You think TD Passes are a dumb way to rank QB's....I agree. So are Super Bowl wins.2. I agree Pro Bowl is worthless. Career passer rating higher than Montana?

Chad Pennington is higher than Marino.

Alex Smith is higher than Bradshaw.

Shaun Hill is higher than Troy AIkman.

What's your point?

3. You're just rambling now. But don't tell me pro bowls are worthless then brag about rookie of the year in the next breath.

Don't bring up one good playoff game.

I'd take Rivers over Ben...but I can see it either way.

Brees had a sub-par year, no doubt...but one year doesn't make a QB. I'd still take Brees over Ben.

Again...you're getting sensitive. Nobody is saying Ben sucks. He's just not the second coming of Jesus Christ like you want him to be because he won a couple Super Bowls. It's easier when your defense is great...year after year.

If the Packers win on Sunday, every columnist in America will wake up Monday morning and proclaim Aaron Rodgers is now "Elite", regardless of how he plays. I think that's absolute crap. There is WAY too much that goes into winning a game to give ONE player all the credit. But if the Packers win...they will all put Aaron in the top 3, some will even say top 2 or the best...And THAT is the only reason anyone even mentions Roethlisberger as elite. Because his team (which just happens to consistently have a top 3 defense) won the big game.

Ben is good

Ben is clutch

Ben is top 7 in the NFL.

Ben is not elite, his defense is.

this discussion baffles me. i dont mean that to be condescending at all. i really am stunned that so many people think ben isn't a top 5 qb in the league. i think he's closer to #1 than #7. and i was one of the people that wanted him run out of town because he's a creep. it still wouldnt be terrible if it happened, but the steelers would stop going to the super bowl.

btw, all their top 3 defenses in the 90s didnt win anything. five straight years they were in the top 3 in pts or yds.

You really think so? You don't think that team is good enough to go with a different QB?

before rod woodson hurt his knee trying to tackle barry sanders that defense was BETTER than their current unit. so yes, i would say so.

 

[David Yudkin]

this discussion baffles me. i dont mean that to be condescending at all. i really am stunned that so many people think ben isn't a top 5 qb in the league. i think he's closer to #1 than #7. and i was one of the people that wanted him run out of town because he's a creep. it still wouldnt be terrible if it happened, but the steelers would stop going to the super bowl. btw, all their top 3 defenses in the 90s didnt win anything. five straight years they were in the top 3 in pts or yds.

I'm glad that you brought up the 90s teams, as there are easy reasons to cite for why they didn't win.1990: PIT ranked 1st in yards allowed and 3rd in points allowed. But their biggest producers were Merril Hoge running the ball and Louis Lipps cathing it. Didn't mkae the playoffs.1992: Ranked 2nd in the league in points allowed at 14 PPG. They averaged 2.7 turnovers generated per game. The defense allowed 24 points and produced 0 turnovers in losing to the Bills.1993: The defense ranked 3rd in yards allowed (283 yards) and averaged 2.4 turnovers produced per game. They allowed 400+ yards to the Chiefs, gave up 27 points, and produced 0 turnovers. You can't blane Neil O'Donnell. He put up 286/3/0 with a 99.9 passer rating.1994: PIT ranked 2nd in points and yardage allowed and averaged 2 turnovers a game. The defense played very well against the Chargers (226 yards, 17 points allowed and1 turnover produced). Not sure you can blame O'Donnell . . . 349/1/0 .1995: Even though they went to the SB, the defense was not as good as other seasons, ranking 9th in points allowed at 20.4. Like most defense, they blew out the Bills when they forced 4 turnovers. They didn't force any turnovers against the COlts and barely advanced to face Dallas. They against did not force a turnover against the Cowboys. O'Donnell didn't play well, but the defense was unspectacular.1996: PIT ranked 4th in points allowed (16 ppg) and 2nd in yards. They allowed almost 350 yards and 28 points to the Patriots. Tomczak didn't play well, but they defense didn't show up either.2001: The Steelers allowed 13 PPG on the season and created around 2 turnovers a game. They did not force any against the Pats, who scored on a punt return and a blocked FG. NE scored 24 points, well above the Steelers average for points allowed.2004: Big Ben's rookie year and a sterling 16-1 record before facing the Pats again. The defense ranked #1 in points allowed (15.7) and #1 in yardage allowed. Again averagin 2 turnovers a game, the defense produced 0 turnovers and they allowed 41 points.The bottom line in all these seasons, for the most part, the defense laid an egg in their last game. Say what you want about Roethlisberger, but if the defense gives up a ton of yards, way more points than they normally allow, don't force turnovers, and don't produce any points on DEF/ST, the chances of them winning are not great . . . which would be the same for any other team under the same circumstances. But I am not buying that adding Roethlisberger to those other games = more playoff wins and titles for the Steelers.

 

[David Yudkin]

Big Ben has had more individual clutch td's that stand out than Brady. Brady sets up fg well.

Could it also be argued that Brady did better throughout the rest of the game so NE only needed a FG to win?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Big Ben has had more individual clutch td's that stand out than Brady. Brady sets up fg well.

Either you're just another Steeler fan or you have a short memory...Without going back and looking for them I couldn't name them, but I've watched a whole lot of AFC east games over the years and I grew up loving the Bills.. And one of my best friends is a NE fan. Not to mention all the playoffs and SB's he's played in since taking over back in 2001. Brady has at times been completely unstoppable..

 

[Godsbrother]

But I am not buying that adding Roethlisberger to those other games = more playoff wins and titles for the Steelers.

Yes because we all know that Roethlisberger is no better and could add nothing more than the great quintet of Steelers QBs in the 90s & 00s: Brister, O'Donnell, Tomczak, Stewart & Maddox

 

[PhD]

People in this thread aren't actually claiming Ben is as good as Brady are they? I take joy in seeing Brady fail, but he's undoubtedly a better QB than Ben is. Brady was bad against the Jets, but still had a better game than Roethlisberger did.

spoken like a stat-focused fantasy football player

 

[David Yudkin]

But I am not buying that adding Roethlisberger to those other games = more playoff wins and titles for the Steelers.

Yes because we all know that Roethlisberger is no better and could add nothing more than the great quintet of Steelers QBs in the 90s & 00s: Brister, O'Donnell, Tomczak, Stewart & Maddox

Did you bother to read what I posted? The defense didn't do anything in many of the games and on several occasions the PIT QB did very well. Or are you going to suggest that instead of 350 passing yards, Ben would have had 500. Or instead of 3 TD passes he would have had 6. Or that if the defense gave up 400 yards, he'd go in as a LB and shave off 100 yards. Or he would go in at CB and generate a couple of picks when the rest of the defense could not force a single one. Or that he would prevent punt returns or blocked kick returns for TDs.The QB IS ONE GUY on a team of 45 players. While hard to believe, OTHER PLAYERS can have a greater impact on the game than the QB. I listed 7 seasons that ended for PIT where the defense did not play anywhere near as well as they did the rest of the season. If one side of the ball doesn't play well, that team is in grave danger of losing the game.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

this discussion baffles me. i dont mean that to be condescending at all. i really am stunned that so many people think ben isn't a top 5 qb in the league. i think he's closer to #1 than #7. and i was one of the people that wanted him run out of town because he's a creep. it still wouldnt be terrible if it happened, but the steelers would stop going to the super bowl.

btw, all their top 3 defenses in the 90s didnt win anything. five straight years they were in the top 3 in pts or yds.

I'm glad that you brought up the 90s teams, as there are easy reasons to cite for why they didn't win.1990: PIT ranked 1st in yards allowed and 3rd in points allowed. But their biggest producers were Merril Hoge running the ball and Louis Lipps cathing it. Didn't mkae the playoffs.

1992: Ranked 2nd in the league in points allowed at 14 PPG. They averaged 2.7 turnovers generated per game. The defense allowed 24 points and produced 0 turnovers in losing to the Bills.

1993: The defense ranked 3rd in yards allowed (283 yards) and averaged 2.4 turnovers produced per game. They allowed 400+ yards to the Chiefs, gave up 27 points, and produced 0 turnovers. You can't blane Neil O'Donnell. He put up 286/3/0 with a 99.9 passer rating.

1994: PIT ranked 2nd in points and yardage allowed and averaged 2 turnovers a game. The defense played very well against the Chargers (226 yards, 17 points allowed and1 turnover produced). Not sure you can blame O'Donnell . . . 349/1/0 .

1995: Even though they went to the SB, the defense was not as good as other seasons, ranking 9th in points allowed at 20.4. Like most defense, they blew out the Bills when they forced 4 turnovers. They didn't force any turnovers against the COlts and barely advanced to face Dallas. They against did not force a turnover against the Cowboys. O'Donnell didn't play well, but the defense was unspectacular.

1996: PIT ranked 4th in points allowed (16 ppg) and 2nd in yards. They allowed almost 350 yards and 28 points to the Patriots. Tomczak didn't play well, but they defense didn't show up either.

2001: The Steelers allowed 13 PPG on the season and created around 2 turnovers a game. They did not force any against the Pats, who scored on a punt return and a blocked FG. NE scored 24 points, well above the Steelers average for points allowed.

2004: Big Ben's rookie year and a sterling 16-1 record before facing the Pats again. The defense ranked #1 in points allowed (15.7) and #1 in yardage allowed. Again averagin 2 turnovers a game, the defense produced 0 turnovers and they allowed 41 points.

The bottom line in all these seasons, for the most part, the defense laid an egg in their last game. Say what you want about Roethlisberger, but if the defense gives up a ton of yards, way more points than they normally allow, don't force turnovers, and don't produce any points on DEF/ST, the chances of them winning are not great . . . which would be the same for any other team under the same circumstances. But I am not buying that adding Roethlisberger to those other games = more playoff wins and titles for the Steelers.

I think this summarizes the entire debate. We are debating great QBs on a FF website. Of course the emphasis is on stats and rankings and we can each highlight a stat and build an argument around it. Stats have become so pivitol to fans that we don't often appreciate what we see. Exactly why it's important to get a frame of reference from a real football person, like Bill Polian. As one who attended most of the games in seasons mentioned above I can tell you that Ben Roethlisberger MOST CERTAINLY would have meant more playoff wins than Bubby Brister, Neil O'Donnell, Mike Tomczak, Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox. It's really amazing that we could even debate that point. I'd even argue that QB play has been the biggest reason for almost every Steelers home AFC Championship/Super Bowl loss.

Off the top of my head I can think of four of the biggest games where Roethlisberger's proven clutch play could have easily swung the outcome.

1995 AFC Championship: O'Donnell couldn't punch in the game winner vs. SD with 4 downs and goal to go. Neil played well but didn’t make the big play with the game on the line.

Super Bowl XXX. O'Donnell threw 3 INT and could have easily thrown 5-6 had Hastings, Mills and Thigpen not made tremendous catches. The Steelers ran the ball effectively and the defense controlled Emmitt Smith. Clearly Neil O'Donnell was the Steelers biggest disappointment in this game.

1997 AFC Championship: Steelers lose to Denver 24-21 as Kordell commits 4 turnovers. QB play was the difference.

In the 2001 AFC Championship NE scored one offensive TD. Kordell Stewart had 3 INT and a fumble. He threw 2 INT in the final 3 minutes when the Steelers were down 7.

 

[Bayhawks]

Say what you want about Roethlisberger, but if the defense gives up a ton of yards, way more points than they normally allow, don't force turnovers, and don't produce any points on DEF/ST, the chances of them winning are not great . . . which would be the same for any other team under the same circumstances. But I am not buying that adding Roethlisberger to those other games = more playoff wins and titles for the Steelers.

While this may be true, you yourself admitted that the same could be said for any other QBs.I will point out, however, that in the SB against the Cardinals, the Steelers D allowed over 400 points when they had averaged just 237/game during the whole season, and the allowed 23 points to the Cardinals, when they had averaged just 13.9 during the season. So Roethlisberger did overcome a defense that "gave up a ton of yards" & "way more points than they normally allow."

 

[David Yudkin]

Say what you want about Roethlisberger, but if the defense gives up a ton of yards, way more points than they normally allow, don't force turnovers, and don't produce any points on DEF/ST, the chances of them winning are not great . . . which would be the same for any other team under the same circumstances. But I am not buying that adding Roethlisberger to those other games = more playoff wins and titles for the Steelers.

While this may be true, you yourself admitted that the same could be said for any other QBs.I will point out, however, that in the SB against the Cardinals, the Steelers D allowed over 400 points when they had averaged just 237/game during the whole season, and the allowed 23 points to the Cardinals, when they had averaged just 13.9 during the season. So Roethlisberger did overcome a defense that "gave up a ton of yards" & "way more points than they normally allow."

I believe I said that in those circumstances, the team would be in grave danger of losing. PIT was behind and needed a miracle throw and catch to win. That sounds pretty dire to me. Again, that is no slight on Roethlisberger, as on that drive he obviously was a difference maker and was worthy of accolodes.I still think way too much praise/adulation/credit/fault gets pinned on the QB in these games. In the NE/NYJ game, if the Pats forced 3 turnovers like they did latter in the season, even not playing as well as usual, people would be calling Brady a winner and the reason they won if they went on to win 35-28 . . . even if he had the same stat line.