Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
I would give him one awful, one bad, and one above average performance with those numbers.
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Is Ben Roethlisberger as good as Tom Brady? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Evilgrin 72
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Jason Wood
Zoo York
Fair enough. But either way, we both agree that jgb's contention he played poorly in all three Super Bowls wasn't a fair depiction.
Is LT a better RB than Chris Johnson now? Of course not.If both of their careers ended today, would LT's career be more impressive? Hell yes.And I hate LT.KY
doowain
Footballguy
Outside of the final drive (which I would give most credit to Santonio), Ben was 17/24 for 172 yards 0 TD and 1 INT which is a 73.1 passer rating. While that drive ultimately won the Super Bowl for the Steelers, Roethlisberger was hardly 'above average' or 'good' during that game.ETA: If you want to break it down by minutes.....out of 180 minutes (93+ minutes of possession), Ben has played less than 15 minutes of elite football (final drive of 2009 SB and part of 3rd/4th quarter this year). The rest has been below average to poor.Talent rises to the top in the biggest games. Ben is good. Not elite.
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Ping Pong
Footballguy
He did throw a pick-6 in a game they lost by 6. He also threw another drive killing int that took points away from the Steelers and off of which the Packers eventually scored. Sure, he wasn't the ONLY reason they lost, but I would say he was a big reason. You can't put too much blame on the DEF for not stopping the Pack with short fields from turnovers, and they did a pretty good job holding them in the 2nd half.Obviously Ben did not play great not even good, but he wasn't terrible. I don't recall Ben playing DB last night. I didn't see Ben make the call or miss the 52 yd FG attempt. Defense either had to make GB turn the ball over or at least stop some of those Td drives and force FG. Defense has been great all year doing that and they just didn't get it done on offense. Ben was one of the reasons why they lost, but not the BIG reason why they lost.What it should say to you is that Roethlisberger is not as good as most Steelers fans think he is. I thought it was funny this morning on Mike & Mike, when the hosts interviewed Chris Carter and then Trent Dilfer and began their discussions of Roethlisberger with "And even though it wasn't Big Ben's fault that the Steelers lost ..." and both Carter and Dilfer said, well, yeah, Ben was a BIG reason the Steelers lost the game ... And both of them were correct.sure wouldaand i tend to agree with you on Benbut seems like a lot of people could not to wait to get to this thread this morning to rub it in to the steelers fans in here that their boy messed up"HA HA, enjoy the super bowl loss your over rated QB blew it"i dunno, it says something to me1) This thread was on the first page long before I responded to it2) I've got nothing but respect for the Steelers3) This thread is about Big Ben, not the SteelersPittsburgh is, to my mind, the most storied franchise in the league and, as an Eagles fan, I can't imagine what it would be like to taste a fraction of their success. And the thought of many of those guys getting a third ring doesn't even bother me, as I'm always a fan of witnessing greatness. But Big Ben? Not a fan, and not sure why I need to apologize about that. Now that doesn't mean I don't think the guy isn't a good QB, or that he still has a decent chance of finding his way into Canton discussions depending on how the rest of his career plays out.Now back to your original point...it cuts both ways. You realize, of course, that if Pittsburgh HAD won this game, this thread would've been bumped 1000x by Steelers fans stating the case for Ben and his three rings vs. Brady, right?
The Berry Man
Footballguy
No. Last night made it pretty clear what Ben's legacy is, in my opinion - the manager of a team with an excellent defense and very good running game who occassionally makes huge, broken plays but can't win a big game when asked to.
He was handed a Super Bowl with 1:59 left, TD to win it, and took a complete dump on the field. He looked like McNabb out there, taking 45 seconds to get 15 yards and then chucking the ball off his back foot four times. It was embarassing.
He was handed a Super Bowl with 1:59 left, TD to win it, and took a complete dump on the field. He looked like McNabb out there, taking 45 seconds to get 15 yards and then chucking the ball off his back foot four times. It was embarassing.
He was hit as he was throwing. Do we blame him now for not blocking very well?
You can't be serious with that statement. I'm starting to believe this is a fishing expedition.
The Berry Man
Footballguy
If you say so. Brady/Manning would've been laughing getting handed a 6 point lead with 2 minutes left. Roethlisberger crapped his pants.Stinky bait.
Please explain when Ben had this situation last night?If you say so. Brady/Manning would've been laughing getting handed a 6 point lead with 2 minutes left. Roethlisberger crapped his pants.
The Berry Man
Footballguy
I meant defecit, obviously.Please explain when Ben had this situation last night?If you say so. Brady/Manning would've been laughing getting handed a 6 point lead with 2 minutes left. Roethlisberger crapped his pants.Stinky bait.
brownhelmets
Footballguy
Never understood that logic...as if that drive didn't exist.It is like saying Jordy Nelson would have only had 102 yards if he didn't have that 38 yard catch.
Defense is what Pittsburgh is all about, and I certainly believe they have won a couple games in spite of Big Ben's play. However, they are 10-3 in playoff games with Roethisberger starting, I believe. These are playoff teams that they are 10-3 against. The best of the best. If he was just a "game manager", he would have been exposed as such during that time moreso then he has.
His value isn't always shown in the stat line. A winner is a winner. For sure, he is fortunate that he has the defense that he has, but they are lucky to have him too.
DawgPoundNJ
Footballguy
I'm not going to rehash every issue but Ben is a polarizing figure. People usually have strong feelings one way or the other. Which is why we get the extremes from both sides of the argument.
Ben is a good quarterback who has fallen into a great situation. He has won games himself, as good quarterbacks do, but he definitely will not carry a team by himself game in and game out like a Manning or a Brady would. He made the plays needed to put the Jets away, but couldn't get the job done last night with plenty of time on the clock and a 6 point deficit. For the elite, that situation is a slam dunk 95% of the time regardless of defense.
Ben is a good quarterback who has fallen into a great situation. He has won games himself, as good quarterbacks do, but he definitely will not carry a team by himself game in and game out like a Manning or a Brady would. He made the plays needed to put the Jets away, but couldn't get the job done last night with plenty of time on the clock and a 6 point deficit. For the elite, that situation is a slam dunk 95% of the time regardless of defense.
doowain
Footballguy
Really? Is it that crazy of a statement? Come on, as a group can we stop throwing out accusations of fishing just because we don't agree? If you don't agree, state why you don't.I'll state why I feel the way I do:
Holmes caught 4 passes for 73 yards on that drive. Including a very difficult endzone sideline fingertip catch from 6 yards out. But the most impressive (and most important play) was the 40 yarder that set it up. Holmes took an 11 yard pass and racked up 29 yards after the catch. He wasn't hit in stride down the seam. It was a 10-12 yard in or curl pattern (not sure) and HOLMES cut it towards the sideline and blew past the defense down to the 6.
83% of the yards on that drive went through Santonio Holmes. THAT is why I say I give most of the credit to him. That 40 yarder was the most crucial play of the game and it was all him.
If you don't agree, fine. Tell me why. Don't just be lazy and call "fishing".
No, he's not.
If I'm not mistaken, Manning was handed the ball with a 7 point deficit & 5 and 1/2 minutes to go in the previous SB. He wasn't laughing when he threw a pick-6 to seal the loss, was he?And, wasn't Brady handed a 3 point deficit, with all 3 timeouts and 35 seconds to go, needing only about 35 yards to give his PK a legitimate shot at a tying FG in the SB right before that? He wasn't laughing when he threw 3 incomplete passes and got sacked was he?If you say so. Brady/Manning would've been laughing getting handed a 6 point lead with 2 minutes left. Roethlisberger crapped his pants.
But let's not let facts get in the way of you making a fool of yourself.
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Ping Pong
Footballguy
Do you give the blocking all the credit for the touchdowns Ben throws when he has a good pocket? Ultimately, this is a team game and no one player is purely responsible for even a single play. However, I do think that within certain situations, we can see if players ultimately made poor decisions that led to poor results. Sure, if the blocking had been better, Ben probably wouldn't have thrown that first INT, but the question is what does he do with that situation? It's impossible to provide a clean pocket for every dropback, so we have to see what he does when he faces pressure, and in this instance, he messed up. Both Rodgers and Ben faced collapsing pockets in the game, and in one instance, Ben threw a pick-6. That's on him.
Uh, maybe because his QB was Roethlisberger? Every pass he caught, including the "very difficult endzone sideline fingertip catch" was thrown by Roethlisberger. Sure he made a great catch, but it was a PERFECT throw. There were 3 Cardinals right there. Holmes didn't get open, Roethlisberger just nailed a perfect throw. You can't realistically try to take credit away from Roethlisberger and give it to Holmes on that drive. They both were great on that drive. When you try to claim Roethlisberger didn't, you look like you're fishing. It's like saying that Montana doesn't deserve any of the credit for the NFC championship win in 1982 because Dwight Clark made a "very difficult endzone fingertip catch."
The Berry Man
Footballguy
If I'm not mistaken, Manning was handed the ball with a 7 point deficit & 5 and 1/2 minutes to go in the previous SB. He wasn't laughing when he threw a pick-6 to seal the loss, was he?And, wasn't Brady handed a 3 point deficit, with all 3 timeouts and 35 seconds to go, needing only about 35 yards to give his PK a legitimate shot at a tying FG in the SB right before that? He wasn't laughing when he threw 3 incomplete passes and got sacked was he?If you say so. Brady/Manning would've been laughing getting handed a 6 point lead with 2 minutes left. Roethlisberger crapped his pants.
But let's not let facts get in the way of you making a fool of yourself.
Brady was handed a 3 point deficit with 35 seconds left after just scoring the go ahead touchdown with like two minutes left. Just because his defense was nowhere near as good as Ben's and let up another TD in like a minute doesn't mean that Brady can come up with two game winning TD's in as many minutes. Also, not sure if you're aware, but 35 seconds is much less than 2 minutes.And yeah, Manning is a choke artist as well, so let's stick to the topic at hand. Roethlisberger is nowhere near as good as Brady.
doowain
Footballguy
Did I say I gave ALL of the credit to Holmes? No I didn't. So stop putting words in my mouth. Do you want me to put a number to it? Ok.....it was 65% Holmes and 35% Ben. How about you stop nitpicking one piece of opinion in what I wrote and comment about it as a whole? You not agreeing with me about holmes doesn't erase the fact that Ben has been below average to poor in approximately 80% of possession minutes in the super bowl...FYI....I'm a miami ohio alum and graduated when ben was a junior. I watched him a ton there and was pulling for him entering the league. I am by no means a hater.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Roethlisberger was great on that last drive against Arizona, but aside from the TD throw, the biggest play was the catch Holmes took all the way inside the 10, and that was him breaking a tackle (or did the Arz DB over run the play?) and turning a short pass into a 40+-yard gain. So, given that play and the TD catch, I could see why someone would say it was more Holmes than Roethlisberger.
As I have stated before, Ben not only threw the perfect pass to Holmes for the TD but in fact he threw two perfect passes in a row to Holmes for the winning TD only Holmes let the first one go right thru his fingers. A team needs someone to throw the pass and someone to catch the pass. 50-50 credit.
12punch
Footballguy
You can sit around all day and talk about which drives were the 'important' ones, who has most yardage, and whatever else, but one thing that will kill you against a good team is turnovers.
In the biggest game of the year ben threw nearly as many picks as brady did in a 16 game season.
In the biggest game of the year ben threw nearly as many picks as brady did in a 16 game season.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
cvnpoka said:
I'm not trying to make a case for Ben here because he truly crapped the bed last night but 95% for anyone is laughable. Even though Ben had an off day last night, he has still been relatively clutch in his career.Get your facts straight.Brady got the ball with EIGHT MINUTES LEFT (not 2 minutes) and a 3 point deficit. Not sure if you're aware, but 8 minutes is much more than 2 minutes.The Berry Man said:Bayhawks said:If I'm not mistaken, Manning was handed the ball with a 7 point deficit & 5 and 1/2 minutes to go in the previous SB. He wasn't laughing when he threw a pick-6 to seal the loss, was he?And, wasn't Brady handed a 3 point deficit, with all 3 timeouts and 35 seconds to go, needing only about 35 yards to give his PK a legitimate shot at a tying FG in the SB right before that? He wasn't laughing when he threw 3 incomplete passes and got sacked was he?The Berry Man said:If you say so. Brady/Manning would've been laughing getting handed a 6 point lead with 2 minutes left. Roethlisberger crapped his pants.
But let's not let facts get in the way of you making a fool of yourself.
Brady was handed a 3 point deficit with 35 seconds left after just scoring the go ahead touchdown with like two minutes left. Just because his defense was nowhere near as good as Ben's and let up another TD in like a minute doesn't mean that Brady can come up with two game winning TD's in as many minutes. Also, not sure if you're aware, but 35 seconds is much less than 2 minutes.
When NE scored, there were FIVE MINUTES LEFT (not 2 minutes). Not sure if you're aware, but 5 minutes is much more than 2 minutes.
When Brady got the ball back, he had a 3 point deficit, 35 seconds, 3 timeouts, and needed to gain only 35 yards to give Gostkowski a FG attempt within his range. Not sure if you're aware, but going 35 yards in 35 seconds with 3 timeouts is easier then going 87 yards with only 1 time-out, since the D has to defend the deep pass, underneath routes should be open. A few short completions and a few timeouts, and NE would have been in position to tie the game. But, in your words, Brady must have "crapped his pants."
Brady didn't gain a single yard. He didn't "laugh" at the situation, as you suggested; rather he came up short, just as Roethlisberger did yesterday. It happens, to most people, at one time or another.
You brought up Manning, I didn't. So keep on back-pedaling, but the fact is that you made an asinine statement, since the 2 QBs you mentioned would "laugh" at a situation like Roethlisberger faced on Sunday came up short (as Roethlisberger did) in the 2 most recent SBs.The Berry Man said:
treat88
Footballguy
Not even trying to make an excuse for Ben's performance last night, but even without Woodson, the GB D should get a lot of credit.
That's a damn good defense.
No excuses, Rodgers carved up a pretty good Pitt D as well. He was about as good as it gets. Transcendent performance.
Just a little credit where it's due for the GB D tho.
That's a damn good defense.
No excuses, Rodgers carved up a pretty good Pitt D as well. He was about as good as it gets. Transcendent performance.
Just a little credit where it's due for the GB D tho.
The Berry Man
Footballguy
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DropKick
Footballguy
I think he was talking about SB 42... no idea what game you're talking about.ETA: That was no attack. Just pointing out that all the "over the top" sarcasm isn't necessary.Get your facts straight.Brady got the ball with EIGHT MINUTES LEFT (not 2 minutes) and a 3 point deficit. Not sure if you're aware, but 8 minutes is much more than 2 minutes.The Berry Man said:Bayhawks said:If I'm not mistaken, Manning was handed the ball with a 7 point deficit & 5 and 1/2 minutes to go in the previous SB. He wasn't laughing when he threw a pick-6 to seal the loss, was he?And, wasn't Brady handed a 3 point deficit, with all 3 timeouts and 35 seconds to go, needing only about 35 yards to give his PK a legitimate shot at a tying FG in the SB right before that? He wasn't laughing when he threw 3 incomplete passes and got sacked was he?The Berry Man said:If you say so. Brady/Manning would've been laughing getting handed a 6 point lead with 2 minutes left. Roethlisberger crapped his pants.
But let's not let facts get in the way of you making a fool of yourself.
When NE scored, there were FIVE MINUTES LEFT (not 2 minutes). Not sure if you're aware, but 5 minutes is much more than 2 minutes.
When Brady got the ball back, he had a 3 point deficit, 35 seconds, 3 timeouts, and needed to gain only 35 yards to give Gostkowski a FG attempt within his range. Not sure if you're aware, but going 35 yards in 35 seconds with 3 timeouts is easier then going 87 yards with only 1 time-out, since the D has to defend the deep pass, underneath routes should be open. A few short completions and a few timeouts, and NE would have been in position to tie the game. But, in your words, Brady must have "crapped his pants."
Brady didn't gain a single yard. He didn't "laugh" at the situation, as you suggested; rather he came up short, just as Roethlisberger did yesterday. It happens, to most people, at one time or another.
You brought up Manning, I didn't. So keep on back-pedaling, but the fact is that you made an asinine statement, since the 2 QBs you mentioned would "laugh" at a situation like Roethlisberger faced on Sunday came up short (as Roethlisberger did) in the 2 most recent SBs.The Berry Man said:
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DropKick
Footballguy
GB has it on both sides of the ball. My preseason pick to win it all before the injuries started to pile up. Confirmed their potential with a narrow loss at New England without Rodgers.Great game for Rodgers. Showed lots of resilience after taking numerous hits and frequent drops from Jones, Nelson, etc.After the GB secondary started dropping like flies at the end of the half, I thought Ben would be able to exploit them more than he did.I haven't seen a "transcendant" SB performance yet from Ben although the Arizona game had a memorable finish. Fortunate to win 2 of 3 SBs... these games can hinge on a freak play, a blown call, a dropped pass. The margin between winning and losing can be razor thin. Some teams don't sniff the SB... enjoy the two wins and look forward to next season (maybe).
Maybe you should try reading it again. Please show me where I said you are giving ALL of the credit to Holmes. You won't be able to, because I didn't say it, so stop putting words in my mouth, okay?The reason I didn't address your "below average to poor" play argument is because it's wrong. You say that "out of 180 minutes (93+ minutes of possession), Ben has played less than 15 minutes of elite football (final drive of 2009 SB and part of 3rd/4th quarter this year). The rest has been below average to poor." You can't give QBs a QB rating on each throw, but when you go by quarter, here are the results:doowain said:
SB XLV
1st Q-7 attempts, 3 completions, 16 yards, 1 INT (6 m, 35 s), -13.8 QB rating
2nd Q-13 attempts, 9 completions, 123 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT (9 m, 31 s), 92.8 QB rating
3rd Q-7 attempts, 4 completions, 24 yards, (9 m, 12s), 63.1 QB rating
4th Q-12 attempts, 8 completions, 96 yards, 1 TD (5m, 36 s), 118.8 QB rating
SB XLIII
1st Q-8 attempts, 7 completions, 122 yards (11 m, 36 s), 138.5 QB rating
2nd Q-6 attempts, 4 completions, 12 yards, 1 INT (5 m, 27 s), -4.5 QB rating
3rd Q-5 attempts, 3 completions, 26 yards (8 m, 39 s) 73.8 QB rating
4th Q-9 attempts, 6 completions, 94 yards, 1 TD (6 m, 6 s), 138.2 QB rating
Elite football
2nd quarter of XLV; 92.8 QB rating, 9 minutes, 31 seconds possession time
4th quarter of XLV; 118.8 QB rating, 5 minutes, 36 seconds possession time
1st quarter of XLIII; 138.5 QB rating, 11 minutes, 36 seconds possession time
4th quarter of XLIII; 138.2 QB rating, 6 minutes 6 seconds possession time
I'm not going to bother doing SB XL, since so far, we see Roethlisberger with 32 minutes, 49 seconds of "elite football." And yet, you claimed that in all 3 SBs, he has played "less than 15 minutes of elite football."
Again, don't let the facts get in your way, though.
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You are correct, I was thinking that he led a five minute drive, and typed 5 minutes left.However, you ignored the fact where he was given the ball and the deficit with 8 minutes left, not 2 as you suggested previously. Do you seriously think that getting the ball with 8 minutes left and leading a 5 minute drive to take the lead is even remotely similar to having to run a 2-minute drill to try to take the lead?
doowain
Footballguy
". It's like saying that Montana doesn't deserve any of the credit for the NFC championship win in 1982 because Dwight Clark made a "very difficult endzone fingertip catch."
You are inferring that I am saying ben doesn't deserve any credit. HTH. Now stop stalking me. TIA.
You are inferring that I am saying ben doesn't deserve any credit. HTH. Now stop stalking me. TIA.
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I'm talking about SB 44. The one last year. The one when Manning (who he suggested would "laugh" if he was given the ball an only needing 6 points with 2 minutes left) threw a pick 6 when he was given the ball, needing 7 points, and had 5 minutes left to score.The point is that every QB (even Brady and Manning, who HE mentioned) have come up short at times. This doesn't change who they are, or what kind of QB they are, just like yesterday's failure by Roethlisberger doesn't change what type of QB he is, as he suggested.
I've replied to what, two of your posts? That's stalking? Okay
I'm inferring nothing of the sort. I'm stating that your statement is akin to saying that Montana doesn't deserve the credit for "The catch." Both statements are equally ludicrous.
DropKick
Footballguy
You brought up the Brady comparison by talking about his failure to score with all of 35 seconds left. The other guy just pointed out that Brady had put his team into position to win by just scoring a TD and his defense didn't hold the lead. I think you have some serious issues. Why don't you be a good boy now and apologize for all the insults you feel necessary to sprinkle into your tiresome replies.You are correct, I was thinking that he led a five minute drive, and typed 5 minutes left.However, you ignored the fact where he was given the ball and the deficit with 8 minutes left, not 2 as you suggested previously. Do you seriously think that getting the ball with 8 minutes left and leading a 5 minute drive to take the lead is even remotely similar to having to run a 2-minute drill to try to take the lead?
DropKick
Footballguy
Not sure why you have references to "NE" (when NE scored) in SB 44 then.... man, you're all over the board. You don't even know what you're saying. Give it a rest.
Although Moss really deserves most of the credit for that score...
DropKick
Footballguy
I understand your point but Holmes did make a phenomenal TD catch; one of - if not - the greatest SB catch of all time.Although Moss really deserves most of the credit for that score...
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Coulda woulda shoulda, but Brady hit Moss in the hands with a 65 yard bomb with 10 seconds to go at the NYG 20 yard line. It would have been a tough catch, but the ball was right there.
doowain
Footballguy
This.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
But the counter point is that that is a much bigger deal for Big Ben, because unlike the other two, not coming up short in big situations is pretty much all he has.Peyton and Brady have NFL records, huge statistics, league MVP awards, Super Bowl MVP awards (by the way Big Ben with 3 super bowl trips and 2 wins and 0 MVP trophies to show for it is pretty remarkable) and seasons where they led their teams to great records in spite of horrible defenses. Oh yeah, and they're pretty good in the clutch too.Big Ben on the other hand has, well, that he's pretty good in the clutch. So when Peyton/Brady don't get the job done at the end of the game they still have alllll those other things to fall back on. But getting the job done at the end is pretty much the entirety of Big Ben's legacy.If we were to say that Peyton and Brady were only moderately clutch it would still leave them among the greatest QBs of all-time. If we were to say that Big Ben was only moderately clutch than it would leave him with almost nothing.
Carver
Footballguy
Webster broke it up. great defensive play there. Once he got his hands on it, Moss had no shot at reeling it in. that was some atrocious play-calling on the final drive.
I'm not all over the board. The other poster said that Brady/Manning would have "laughed" at the situation Roethlisberger faced at the end of the SB, suggesting that it was an "easy" situation. I pointed out that in the last 2 SBs that Roethlisberger wasn't QB, both of those QBs failed in similar situations.Brady starting a TD drive with EIGHT MINUTES LEFT is not the same as starting a drive with less than 2 minutes left. Brady getting the ball with 35 seconds left, 3 timeouts, and needing to gain about 35 yards is much more similar.No offense, but maybe you should read the entire thread, or at least the posts that lead to those that you reply to?
At the risk of being redundant, you should re-read the posts of this particular part of the thread. The other poster said that Brady/Manning would have "laughed" at the situation Roethlisberger faced. He brought up the Brady comparison, not I.If you don't like reading my "tiresome replies," feel free to skip them.
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That's an excellent point, and part of the reason why I posted earlier that I would move Roethlisberger down in my own QB rankings, while moving Rodgers up.The fact remains that Roethlisberger still has consistently produced in clutch situations. He didn't in XLV, but he often does.
