boubucarow
Footballguy
I love how ignored the rest of my post about supporting casts for Butkus, Lewis, and LT.And I could imagine any player in NFL history on a 1-13 team as should you.
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Is **** Butkus the Greatest Linebacker of All Time? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Hairy Snowman
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CalBear
Footballguy
No, actually, I cannot imagine a team with Barry Sanders and LT going 1-13. The idea seems preposterous. The fact that losing teams don't get lots of Pro Bowlers is not news, neither is it an argument for the greatness of Butkus.
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
Lawrence Taylor is one of the very best football players I've ever seen. To me he's the most dominant defensive player I've seen. There's been some good ones and Butkus is up there but LT would be my first choice on the defensive side of the ball.
netnalp
Footballguy
Understood. I think that most people best remember him for the pass rush that leads to a misconception that was all he did.But the guy was dominant in all phases. Sorry if I'm a bit obsessive with this. I grew up as a Skins fan in the 80s/90s watching LT dominate us and watching Gibbs change his entire scheme/formations to deal with this guy.And in grad school, I put something together on all great athletes from the state of VA. The more I saw of Taylor the more amazed I was by the kind of football player he was.I just said that's what I remember him for. Probably wrong on my part but that's what I think when I hear LT.Here's a clip of LT against the run:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKo4JepOTooHe has two interception highlights that I'm trying to find as well. To say LT was just a pass rusher is like saying Jerry Rice was a possession WR. He is most known for his pass rush but the guy was a complete and dominant LB.
Lt was known for running down the line behind the offensive linemen and tackling the RB in the backfield if teams tried to run away from him. Less known is LT was used at times as the 3rd CB to cover a WR.
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boubucarow
Footballguy
You do realize that the 1983 Giants won 3 games despite a full season from LT. Lions won 5 a couple times. I can see an argument that a great QB couldn't be on a 1 win team but there is no other position on the team that is even debatable. It is unlikely that a team could be so untalented that LT wouldn't help them get a couple wins, but there have been teams that bad and one player does not make a team good. As far as the pro bowler argument, I understand to a point what you are saying. I am not old enough to have seen Butkus and was too young to fully understand Taylor until later in his career. But from what I have seen and read, it appears very clear that the Giants defense started with LT but had ton of talent in that front 7 in particular. Butkus caught the tail end of two talented careers (Atkins/Pettibone) but he just did not have the talent surrounding him that LT did.All that said. LT is the best LB and defensive player in history. I just find your argument to be baseless.
CalBear
Footballguy
Butkus also had Sayers. What offensive Hall of Famer existed on the 1983 Giants? [None]. What defensive Hall of Famer existed on those Lions teams? [None]. I just think it's ridiculous to consider that a team that had guys on either side of the ball who became Hall of Famers, and are considered by some to be among the best ever to play the game, could put up a 1-13 season and a losing record for their careers.
boubucarow
Footballguy
Agree to disagree then.
CalBear
Footballguy
OK, how about this: Find me another team that had two Hall of Fame players, in key positions, one on offense and one on defense, in the prime of their careers, who managed a 1-win season. Not a rookie season (like Aikman's).
boubucarow
Footballguy
Well, the 3 win Giants had two HOF. Not sure why it matters what side of the ball they were on. I will give it a look.
boubucarow
Footballguy
1981 Patriots were 2-14 with John Hannah and Mike Haynes in their primes.1962 Rams were 1-12-1 with a rookie pro bowler Merlin Olsen and Deacon Jones in his 2nd season.1972 Oilers were 1-13 with an in their primes Elvin Bethea (DE) and Ken Houston (SS).One thing to keep in mind is that Sayer and Butkus only played 5 full seasons together. They were 28-25-1 in the first 4 seasons and at worst 5-7. Sayers hurt his knee in 1968 and missed the last 5 games. In the 1-13 1969 season Sayers was not the same player. He toughed his way to 1000 yards with a long run of 28 yards and they were the worst passing team in the NFL. Their 1490 passing yards were almost 1000 yards less then the league average and less than half of the league leader. Despite their average to above average defensive performance, it is easy to see why they lost a bunch.'boubucarow said:
johnnyboy8102
Footballguy
I feel like Bill George, Sam Huff, Joe Schmidt, Derrick Brooks, Ted Hendricks, and Chuck Bednarik should atleast be options.
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Jagov
Footballguy
I, too, am on the "Jack Ham is the Greatest Linebacker of All Time" bandwagon
boubucarow
Footballguy
Go ahead and ignore everything that doesn't fit exactly into your faulty argument. You seem to be good at it. Your feeble attempt to dilute the greatest of Butkus is beyond laughable now.
CalBear
Footballguy
Yeah, well, 87% of the poll voters seem to be helping me out.
boubucarow
Footballguy
You seemed to have also ignored my comments on who was the greatest LB as well. It isn't the conclusion that Butkus isn't the greatest LB in most eyes that is a problem. It is your silly reasoning to prove it.
erikf08
Footballguy
LT revolutionized the Linebacker position. I have a hard time believing there was a more dominating linebacker, possibly defensive player in the history of the NFL. There may have been meaner or dirtier guys, but not more dominating. Who was the qb that got to the line of scrimmage, couldn't find LT on the field, panicked and called a timeout, then realized LT was sitting out that play?
belljr
Footballguy
**** Butkus...
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
They should name an award after one of those guys!
Well, it's Taylor.
But my thoughts beyond that rather obvious point...
...Jack Ham is the most well-rounded great LB in history, and whoever #2 on that list is, it isn't close. Willie Lanier, probably.
...As much as I hate Ray Lewis, the gap between him and whoever is the #2 MLB in history (maybe Butkus and Lambert as 2a and 2b) is huge. But the gap between Ray Ray and Taylor is even bigger.
...Thanks and God bless to whoever compared Ray Lewis to LT based on tackles per season. You'll find Ray Lewis had an even greater edge in tackles per season over Jerry Rice. Which is exactly as relevant.
...When I went to the profootballhof.com site to remind myself if any legends were being omitted unfairly, I was reminded once again how embarrassing it is for the NFL that Andre Tippett is a HOF'er.
But my thoughts beyond that rather obvious point...
...Jack Ham is the most well-rounded great LB in history, and whoever #2 on that list is, it isn't close. Willie Lanier, probably.
...As much as I hate Ray Lewis, the gap between him and whoever is the #2 MLB in history (maybe Butkus and Lambert as 2a and 2b) is huge. But the gap between Ray Ray and Taylor is even bigger.
...Thanks and God bless to whoever compared Ray Lewis to LT based on tackles per season. You'll find Ray Lewis had an even greater edge in tackles per season over Jerry Rice. Which is exactly as relevant.
...When I went to the profootballhof.com site to remind myself if any legends were being omitted unfairly, I was reminded once again how embarrassing it is for the NFL that Andre Tippett is a HOF'er.
johnnyboy8102
Footballguy
I agree that comparing tackles per season for a Inside Linebacker and an Outside Linebacker is irrelevant but how is the bolded part of your sentence above relevant?
Maik Jeaunz
Footballguy
I wonder what **** Butkus is up to these days. even at almost 70 years old, he'd probably be the second best LB on the Saints.
Koya
Footballguy
This has been discussed elsewhere, but LT is the most dominant defensive player I have ever seen either live, or on tape / historical records.
Forget about revolutionizing defense - he did that, but the fact is he revolutionized offense even more. After all, there has yet to be the "next" LT, so teams have created the pass rushing specialist to create havoc, some of whom can play the run, some of whom can drop into coverage - but no one package that brought the destruction of a gameplan that LT presented.
OFFENSE is LT's real mark. Because there was no way to stop LT. No way to block him. Regarding the run, when running AT a guy as your best bet (a guy that is quite possibly the best defensive player ever), that says a lot.
However there was no answer to how LT would get to the QB - so they invented new offenses. Gibbs, the West Coast Offense, the idea of taking three - or even one - step as a drop, because anything more resulted in a sack, or worse. LT reinvented the game, on both sides of the ball.
I am a Giants fan first, Ravens fan second. Ray Lewis is possibly the best MLB ever. But he doesnt come close to LT's ability nor impact on a specific game and especially in a historical context.
Forget about revolutionizing defense - he did that, but the fact is he revolutionized offense even more. After all, there has yet to be the "next" LT, so teams have created the pass rushing specialist to create havoc, some of whom can play the run, some of whom can drop into coverage - but no one package that brought the destruction of a gameplan that LT presented.
OFFENSE is LT's real mark. Because there was no way to stop LT. No way to block him. Regarding the run, when running AT a guy as your best bet (a guy that is quite possibly the best defensive player ever), that says a lot.
However there was no answer to how LT would get to the QB - so they invented new offenses. Gibbs, the West Coast Offense, the idea of taking three - or even one - step as a drop, because anything more resulted in a sack, or worse. LT reinvented the game, on both sides of the ball.
I am a Giants fan first, Ravens fan second. Ray Lewis is possibly the best MLB ever. But he doesnt come close to LT's ability nor impact on a specific game and especially in a historical context.
Hairy Snowman
Footballguy
I just want to put this out there for the people who keep saying LT changed the game on the offensive side. LT had Harry Carson, who to me is one of the most under-rated linebackers in the game.
But more to the point, the 1985 Bears and the 46 defense revolutionized football. And had Wilber Marshall stayed in Chicago, I still believe they would have beaten the giants in 1986.
Just saying. The defensive scheme changed football, not Lawrence Taylor.
But more to the point, the 1985 Bears and the 46 defense revolutionized football. And had Wilber Marshall stayed in Chicago, I still believe they would have beaten the giants in 1986.
Just saying. The defensive scheme changed football, not Lawrence Taylor.
VaTerp
Footballguy
Blatantly false. The 3-4 defense was around for a decade before LT. HOF coaches and playcallers like Bill Walsh and Joe Gibbs specifically said that they gameplanned around LT, not Harry Carson or the 3-4 defense. Bill Parcells said LT did things that weren't even in the design of the defense but he then added them end b/c he was so good.
The statement above is just completely off base and is either ignorance or someone living in their own fantasy world.
Tau837
Footballguy
I agree with everything except the implication that the West Coast Offense was "invented" as a result of LT. That's not true.
Koya
Footballguy
That's mostly fair. I do know both Gibbs and Walsh essentially altered their offense to account for LT, including Walsh using a tackle to block him amongst other things, and do recall Gibbs stating how one of the only ways to combat Taylor was just get rid of the ball, seeing at less 7 step drops. Regardless, best defensive layer ever as a consensus pick.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Agree with the sentiment that the greatest is, was, and might always be LT. I can understand arguments that put LT in the running for the greatest NFL player of all time, let alone LB.
But it is sad that Butkus is so under-appreciated.
I think one of the clear cases that makes him the #2 in my book is that Butkus not only did it all, he did it with rarely any help.
LT was the definition of dominant, and as mentioned above, his abilities changed the way the game itself was played. But he had some support, first on the Crunch Bunch with both HoFers (Harry Carson) and ProBowlers (Van Pelt and Brian Kelley and then on the infamous Big Blue Wrecking Crew with similar talent, including Carson, Reasons and Banks in the midfield, and guys like Jim Burt, Leonard Marshall and Gary Martin.
The scheme -- Buddy Ryan's 3-4 -- also played predominantly to this entire group's strength. Not taking anything away from LT, but there were plenty of playmakers on that side of the ball. The surrounding cast as well as LT's otherworldy skills made this one of the best Ds of all time.
Ray Rice is also a freak of nature, and his longevity and ability to play at an extraordinarily high level for so long is in itself enough to put him in the running. He adds more to the game than just his extraordinary skill -- he raises the game of everyone around him.
But let's not forget who was around him all of the time he has been a loyal Raven -- Ed Reed and Rod Woodson just to name two extraordinary players on the same side of Lewis's ball. Siragusa, Jamie Sharper, Peter Boulware, Sam Adams -- this is not your Bubbie's chopped liver, boys. This is prime cut meat that helped and were helped by Lewis's unbelievable ability.
Now, what about Butkus? What huge playmakers supported him? Joe Fortunato? Ritchie Petitbon? Earl Leggett? Bennie McCrae?
Let me save you the time of trying to look up who this ragtag bunch are by simply reminding that when Butkus was at his best, the Bears were at their horrific worst, and were that way for the most part of Butkus's entire career. At his peak in 69/70, the Bears won, what, one game?
Butkus's ability to be such a dominant force, with pretty much no supporting cast around him whatsoever, puts him in the Top 2 LBs of all time for me, hands down.
But it is sad that Butkus is so under-appreciated.
I think one of the clear cases that makes him the #2 in my book is that Butkus not only did it all, he did it with rarely any help.
LT was the definition of dominant, and as mentioned above, his abilities changed the way the game itself was played. But he had some support, first on the Crunch Bunch with both HoFers (Harry Carson) and ProBowlers (Van Pelt and Brian Kelley and then on the infamous Big Blue Wrecking Crew with similar talent, including Carson, Reasons and Banks in the midfield, and guys like Jim Burt, Leonard Marshall and Gary Martin.
The scheme -- Buddy Ryan's 3-4 -- also played predominantly to this entire group's strength. Not taking anything away from LT, but there were plenty of playmakers on that side of the ball. The surrounding cast as well as LT's otherworldy skills made this one of the best Ds of all time.
Ray Rice is also a freak of nature, and his longevity and ability to play at an extraordinarily high level for so long is in itself enough to put him in the running. He adds more to the game than just his extraordinary skill -- he raises the game of everyone around him.
But let's not forget who was around him all of the time he has been a loyal Raven -- Ed Reed and Rod Woodson just to name two extraordinary players on the same side of Lewis's ball. Siragusa, Jamie Sharper, Peter Boulware, Sam Adams -- this is not your Bubbie's chopped liver, boys. This is prime cut meat that helped and were helped by Lewis's unbelievable ability.
Now, what about Butkus? What huge playmakers supported him? Joe Fortunato? Ritchie Petitbon? Earl Leggett? Bennie McCrae?
Let me save you the time of trying to look up who this ragtag bunch are by simply reminding that when Butkus was at his best, the Bears were at their horrific worst, and were that way for the most part of Butkus's entire career. At his peak in 69/70, the Bears won, what, one game?
Butkus's ability to be such a dominant force, with pretty much no supporting cast around him whatsoever, puts him in the Top 2 LBs of all time for me, hands down.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
As a Steelers fan I have watched a lot of Ravens games and readily admit that Ray Lewis is a great LB, one the of the best to ever play the game. But the guy has been credited with a ridiculous amount of phantom tackles and tackles-after-the-fact. I am not trying to take anything away from the guy but number of tackles, which wasn't even an official stat until 2001, is not a valid way to compare defensive players.
Carver
Footballguy
He is FAR from under appreciated.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Nice to see you put Rickey Jackson in there. The guy played with a wired jaw post car accident once.
I voted Nitschke.
I voted Nitschke.
Ridiculous to vote for anyone but LT.
No one changed the game like him.
QBs were literally scared of him.
The pass rusher stuff is so limiting...offenses ran away from LT as much as possible and LT responded by running across the field and catching RBs from behind, behind the LOS sometimes. Can you even imagine how fast and explosive a player has to be to pull that off?
LT was a superior athlete to everyone in the NFL back then. He went to college with Michael Jordan and a zillion years ago there were articles about who was the better athlete.
I remember an article in some magazine where HOF LB Andre Tippett was chronicled for being such a great athlete, He was like a 6th degree black belt or somesuch and they had a pic of him doing this karate kick with like one knee bent, the other ready to crash into someone's chest. It was so interesting all the different things Tippett could do. The article closed with something like still not the athlete LT is. That's a famous pic of Tippett there's gotta be someone else that knows what I'm talking about here.
This is before the web and before satellite TV...you guys gotta understand a different time.
Before LT, linebackers weren't glamorous but more Butkus like and tough sonofaguns that were trouble.
It was quite normal for whatever star to then attract kids to want to be like them. There was a clear clear line you could draw. LT made kids suddenly want to play LB and that was odd. For "forever" it was they wanted to be like some famous RB or QB, LB was quite new and different.
Cornelius Bennett and Derrick Thomas were probably the only two at all close to being "the next LT" but it was like every single OLB was the next LT for at least ten years.
If you want to see just how fast and agile LT was, watch Randall highlights. IMO LT and the awesome Bears D are the only reasons Randall was not a legend.
I'm fine with the proper distinction of MLB versus OLB. I don't know that I'd choose Lewis over Butkus or vice versa. I know I wouldn't want to run against them or play against them period. They use the phrase sideline to sideline a bit often for defenders, few literally ran sideline to sideline like these two did and few chucked big lineman like they were pesky blockers out of the way like them. Most importantly, few were as sure tacklers as those two.
The Giants had HOF Harry Carson at MLB and team HOF type quality LB in Carl Banks opposite LT. They had decent safeties and if their corners stunk they signed old vets who got it done. They had phenomenal depth at LB back then and their backups would have started elsewhere and done well. Their DL was classic with tough Jim Burt's belly hanging out as opposing centers tried to move him and Leonard Marshall and young Erik Howard and....they had one of the best Ds. This began the start of BB being considered a genius and BP being considered a top coach and all that. Coughlin, Al Groh, there were plenty of future coaches on this staff as well. BB had a phenomenal D that allowed him to do whatever he wanted with LT. If LT was totally out of position, good luck getting past that DL or the other two LBs. I think LT gave BB some confidence to try things and really came out of his shell and developed into the awesome coach he is today. He's a genius, I'm not saying he wouldn't be great if he didn't coach LT. I think it was a key part of his own development is all.
No one changed the game like him.
QBs were literally scared of him.
The pass rusher stuff is so limiting...offenses ran away from LT as much as possible and LT responded by running across the field and catching RBs from behind, behind the LOS sometimes. Can you even imagine how fast and explosive a player has to be to pull that off?
LT was a superior athlete to everyone in the NFL back then. He went to college with Michael Jordan and a zillion years ago there were articles about who was the better athlete.
I remember an article in some magazine where HOF LB Andre Tippett was chronicled for being such a great athlete, He was like a 6th degree black belt or somesuch and they had a pic of him doing this karate kick with like one knee bent, the other ready to crash into someone's chest. It was so interesting all the different things Tippett could do. The article closed with something like still not the athlete LT is. That's a famous pic of Tippett there's gotta be someone else that knows what I'm talking about here.
This is before the web and before satellite TV...you guys gotta understand a different time.
Before LT, linebackers weren't glamorous but more Butkus like and tough sonofaguns that were trouble.
It was quite normal for whatever star to then attract kids to want to be like them. There was a clear clear line you could draw. LT made kids suddenly want to play LB and that was odd. For "forever" it was they wanted to be like some famous RB or QB, LB was quite new and different.
Cornelius Bennett and Derrick Thomas were probably the only two at all close to being "the next LT" but it was like every single OLB was the next LT for at least ten years.
If you want to see just how fast and agile LT was, watch Randall highlights. IMO LT and the awesome Bears D are the only reasons Randall was not a legend.
I'm fine with the proper distinction of MLB versus OLB. I don't know that I'd choose Lewis over Butkus or vice versa. I know I wouldn't want to run against them or play against them period. They use the phrase sideline to sideline a bit often for defenders, few literally ran sideline to sideline like these two did and few chucked big lineman like they were pesky blockers out of the way like them. Most importantly, few were as sure tacklers as those two.
The Giants had HOF Harry Carson at MLB and team HOF type quality LB in Carl Banks opposite LT. They had decent safeties and if their corners stunk they signed old vets who got it done. They had phenomenal depth at LB back then and their backups would have started elsewhere and done well. Their DL was classic with tough Jim Burt's belly hanging out as opposing centers tried to move him and Leonard Marshall and young Erik Howard and....they had one of the best Ds. This began the start of BB being considered a genius and BP being considered a top coach and all that. Coughlin, Al Groh, there were plenty of future coaches on this staff as well. BB had a phenomenal D that allowed him to do whatever he wanted with LT. If LT was totally out of position, good luck getting past that DL or the other two LBs. I think LT gave BB some confidence to try things and really came out of his shell and developed into the awesome coach he is today. He's a genius, I'm not saying he wouldn't be great if he didn't coach LT. I think it was a key part of his own development is all.
yeah I don't get that either.Most underappreciated to me is Hardy Nickerson.I've never seen such an awesome player with such horrible talent around him. He was quite literally their whole defense for a time there.Barry has often called him the best LB he faced or toughest defender to get around etc and that's gotta mean something too.I'll always wonder how hard it must've been for Nickerson to have to go at every play figuring if I don't make this tackle the guy is gone. If he was on a decent team, would he have been a HOFer? Nickerson was the first 200 tackle guy. He absolutely would cause people to discuss tackles being subjective and to debate if he really got 200, but afaik he was the first.'Carver said:
johnnyboy8102
Footballguy
Incorrect. I have proven this theory wrong many times over the years. Lewis has 236 career assist tackles in his 112 career home games. That comes out to 2.1 assists per home game. The guy that is in charge of inflating his tackles should be fired because he is doing a horrible job.
I am not trying to take anything away from the guy but number of tackles, which wasn't even an official stat until 2001, is not a valid way to compare defensive players.
Examples of players who get a huge boost by their home town stat crews:
London Fletcher Since 2010: 17 home games/91 Assist = 5.4 assists per home game
Pat Angerer 2010 & 2011: 16 Home Games/62 Assists = 3.9 assists per home game
Jerod Mayo Since 2010: 15 Home Games/75 Assists = 5 assists per home game
Brian Cushing Since 2010: 16 Home Games/40 Assists = 2.5 assists per home game
Ray Lewis Since 2010: 16 Home Games/34 Assists = 2.1 assists per home game
Patrick Willis Since 2010: 15 Home Games/24 Assists = 1.6 assists per home game
The "padded tackle stat" argument against Lewis has become the de facto thing to say since there is nothing else that can possibly be critiqued with his statistics, longevity, peak, awards, influence, team rankings, winning a SB ring, etc.
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