Who really is the greatest of all time? (1 Viewer)

[Rodrigo Duterte]

Sorry, but you made me laugh with the point about situation and lazy analysis.   After what some some consider TWO separate hall of fame carers in New England, Brady swaps jerseys and gets in done AGAIN in Tampa.  Listen to what his teammates say..

With all due respect to Rodgers, he isn't in the conversation.

Rodgers and Manning do the same in a career path paved with that much gold.  Sorry fanboy.

 

[Blackbear]

For QB it is Brady.

for Wr it is Rice.

For RBs it is Sanders. 
 

overall... Brady, Rice, Sanders. 

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Bart Starr 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

For QB it is Brady.

for Wr it is Rice.

For RBs it is Sanders. 
 

overall... Brady, Rice, Sanders. 

Reggie White

 

[Blackbear]

Reggie White

Oh ok outside of the fantasy football relme

 

[Blackbear]

Mean Joe Greene

 

[Blackbear]

Rathman. 

 

[Blackbear]

Roger Craig. 

 

[Blackbear]

Lott

 

[Leroy Hoard]

"The".  Not "Them".

 

[DropKick]

Rodgers and Manning do the same in a career path paved with that much gold.  Sorry fanboy.

A couple numbers to help with your lazy analysis.

Brady has as many NFC Championships as Rodgers... after one season.

Brady has more than twice as many rings as Rodgers and Manning combined.... think about that.

Brady did what he did with his career path... and then created another path.  This is a fact.

That Rodgers or Manning (who I both respect, incidentally) could have, would have or should have is pure speculative fantasy.

 

[shadrap]

For QB it is Brady.

for Wr it is Rice.

For RBs it is Sanders. 
 

overall... Brady, Rice, Sanders. 

love this but just have to add Walter Payton as a second behind Sanders.

thanx for you insight.   I thank those players for me being able to watch them.

 

[elguapo07]

love this but just have to add Walter Payton as a second behind Sanders.

thanx for you insight.   I thank those players for me being able to watch them.

Is Jim Brown relevant anymore?  Gotta think he's still RB1

 

[Rodrigo Duterte]

A couple numbers to help with your lazy analysis.

Brady has as many NFC Championships as Rodgers... after one season.

Brady has more than twice as many rings as Rodgers and Manning combined.... think about that.

Brady did what he did with his career path... and then created another path.  This is a fact.

That Rodgers or Manning (who I both respect, incidentally) could have, would have or should have is pure speculative fantasy.

Apples and oranges son.

 

[Tanner9919]

Is Jim Brown relevant anymore?  Gotta think he's still RB1

no, he's not even in the conversation. I don't think he , or his stats, are relevant. poor defenses, poor tackling, poor coaching ( not nearly the same coaches as someone like BB or Josh McDaniels and their 6 SBs over the years. Or Joe Gibbs, Jimmy Johnson, etc.

the NFL had how many teams in the 50s?  12 teams.14 teams when JB retired in '65. he played in an age where you didn't have 3rd down speciailsts, rotating RBs like today's NFL. So JB was all the Brownies had at RB at that time. Today, teams have 3-4 RBs, 3rd down guys, change of pace guys who fill in so the starter can get rest time during games.and ADP STILL got his stats and 2k rush yards in a season. Faulk still got his recs and rush yards. 

Brown simply can't be compared to ADP, and he's not in the same ballpark as Marshall Faulk .  Faulk is EASILY  the best all-around RB in the history of the league. C-mart was pretty special, too. And some guy named Dickerson. or Payton,  Sanders. Or Emmitt Smith. JB was a one trick pony ,  with just 262 recs in his career. 

I love Otto Graham but he played in a small league  with nowhere near the number of high-end defensive specialists/assassins like LT, Reggie White etc., and he didn't face DBs like Primetime, Or safeties like Lott. it literally was a league of truck drivers and mechanics who moonlighted as NFL players back in those days. So Graham and JB are great in their own right, but can't be compared to better, superior RBs like ADP, Cmart, Faulk, Dickerson, Sanders, Smith, etc.

Think of it like this..if Faulk played in the 50s how good would he have been? or what if ADP, Sanders, Dickerson,  C-Mart played back then? or LT2? 

as great as Pete Sampras was, he's nowhere near as good as the top players in today's tennis. Would Rod Laver make it out of the first round in Wimbledon 2021? nope. I think the only sport where the old timers were better than the new crowd, is golf. imagine Barry Bonds in 1960 baseball. or A-Rod. or Schilling and Pedro.

 

[DropKick]

Apples and oranges son.

Lazy way to drop out of a debate.

 

[travdogg]

I'm someone who greatly values elite performance over longevity, and performance amongst peers over overall stats, so with that in mind I have more of an appreciation for football 40+ years ago than most. My all-time team would probably look like:

QB: Otto Graham

RB: Jim Brown

WR: Jerry Rice

WR: Don Hutson

WR: Lance Alworth

TE: Tony Gonzalez

T: Ron Mix

T: Anthony Munoz

G: John Hannah

G: Randall McDaniel

Jim Otto

Edge: Lawrence Taylor

Edge: Reggie White

Int: Randy White

Int: Bob Lilly

LB: Joe Schmidt

LB: Bill George

CB: Deion Sanders

CB: Rod Woodson

Slot: Ronnie Lott

S: Jack Christiansen

S: Johnny Robinson

Coach: Paul Brown

OC: Bill Walsh

DC: Bill Belichick

Hardest omissions were Jim Parker and Bruce Smith.

 

[Tau837]

I'm someone who greatly values elite performance over longevity, and performance amongst peers over overall stats, so with that in mind I have more of an appreciation for football 40+ years ago than most. My all-time team would probably look like:

RB: Jim Brown

Sure, but "elite performance" requires context. For example, IMO Payton on the lousy Bears teams he mostly played on was better than Brown on the elite teams he played on. IMO it isn't particularly close. (I realize my opinion is likely a minority opinion...)

 

[Ghost Rider]

Lazy way to drop out of a debate.

I can play this game, too. 

Kurt Warner has three times as many NFC championships as both Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees. 

Kurt Warner won the regular season MVP in his first season as a starter, something not done by Brees, Brady or Rodgers. 

Arizona had won one playoff game in 30 years before Warner took over and led them to the Super Bowl.

The Rams had averaged 5 wins a season over the 9 seasons prior, never going better than 7-9, before Warner took over and led them to 13 wins and a Super Bowl victory.

Do these cherry picked stats now make Kurt Warner the GOAT? 

 

[travdogg]

Sure, but "elite performance" requires context. For example, IMO Payton on the lousy Bears teams he mostly played on was better than Brown on the elite teams he played on. IMO it isn't particularly close. (I realize my opinion is likely a minority opinion...)

I agree to an extent, and you could probably make a similar argument with Barry Sanders, but in the case of Brown, I think you have a guy who was clearly the best player at his position for essentially the entirety of his career. I'm not sure you have that with Payton, who had guys like OJ(who probably had it even harder than Payton), and Campbell, and Dickerson who all were at his level at times, though I'd agree Payton had a rougher road than Dickerson or especially Campbell.

As far as minority opinions go, I don't think its crazy, its just not where I would lean. I will say a potentially crazy sounding minority opinion I have as a Bears fan, is that Payton isn't the best RB the Bears ever had. 

I can play this game, too. 

Kurt Warner has three times as many NFC championships as both Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees. 

Kurt Warner won the regular season MVP in his first season as a starter, something not done by Brees, Brady or Rodgers. 

Arizona had won one playoff game in 30 years before Warner took over and led them to the Super Bowl.

The Rams had averaged 5 wins a season over the 9 seasons prior, never going better than 7-9, before Warner took over and led them to 13 wins and a Super Bowl victory.

Do these cherry picked stats now make Kurt Warner the GOAT? 

Speaking of minority opinions, while obviously there is no case for Warner over Brady or Rodgers, I actually kind of think there might be over Brees. 

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

My 2 cents

1. Thread title should read Greatest QB (only QBs are listed in the poll

2. There should be distinctions between eras, pre and post SB, with without FA etc. Yeah Otto Graham took his team to the championship 10 straight years playing in 6 team conferences where the first and only playoff game WAS the championship game and even after merger at most winning 1 playoff game got him to the championship game. Even conference championships are harder to win now, never mind Super Bowls. The comparisons are apples and watermelons afaic.

3. We need to define\agree what greatness is for the QB position since it is so unique compared to the other positions (rbs, wrs, lineman etc). Stats and Championships are fairly obvious, but QB involves not just stats but leadership intangibles as well. 

 

[Tau837]

Sure, but "elite performance" requires context. For example, IMO Payton on the lousy Bears teams he mostly played on was better than Brown on the elite teams he played on. IMO it isn't particularly close. (I realize my opinion is likely a minority opinion...)

I agree to an extent, and you could probably make a similar argument with Barry Sanders, but in the case of Brown, I think you have a guy who was clearly the best player at his position for essentially the entirety of his career. I'm not sure you have that with Payton, who had guys like OJ(who probably had it even harder than Payton), and Campbell, and Dickerson who all were at his level at times, though I'd agree Payton had a rougher road than Dickerson or especially Campbell.

As far as minority opinions go, I don't think its crazy, its just not where I would lean. I will say a potentially crazy sounding minority opinion I have as a Bears fan, is that Payton isn't the best RB the Bears ever had. 

This triggered me to look for my old posts on Payton. I found this one from 2010:

I definitely think as time passes, people forget just how great Payton was. He is my favorite player of all time.

He WAS the offense.

QBs he played with: Bob Avellini, Bobby Douglass, Gary Huff, Virgil Carter, Vince Evans, Mike Phipps, Jim McMahon, Steve Fuller, Greg Landry, Rusty Lisch, Mike Tomczak, Doug Flutie, Jim Harbaugh. Heck, Payton himself lined up at QB a few times. Basically, Jim McMahon was the best he played with. That's not saying much.

Payton played with 1 Pro Bowl QB in 13 seasons: McMahon in 1985. (And why exactly did McMahon make the Pro Bowl? The Bears passing offense was 22nd in yards and 23rd in TDs... McMahon threw for 2392 yards and 15 TDs.)

Not only did he never play with a 1000 yard receiver, he never even played with a 900 yard receiver. In fact, only 3 times in his 13 year career did any Bears receiver top 800 yards, and only 3 other times did any Bears receiver top 700 yards. And there were no good receiving TEs, either. It should come as no surprise that no Bears WR (or TE) made the Pro Bowl during Payton's career.

To reinforce this, consider Chicago's pass yardage ranks during Payton's career: 23 (of 26), 28 (of 28), 21, 26, 26, 28, 28, 22, 17, 26, 22, 24, 14. They finished in the bottom quarter of the league 10 times in Payton's career.

Payton himself led the Bears in receptions 6 times, and had the second highest total 5 other times.

In his last few years, his offensive lines were pretty good, but for most of his career it wasn't. Two of Payton's linemen made the Pro Bowl a total of 5 times in his 13 seasons, all in his final 3 seasons: Jim Covert (1985, 1986), and Jay Hilgenberg (1985, 1986, 1987).

Despite the lack of support, he retired as the all time NFL leader in rushing yards, yards from scrimmage, all purpose yards, and rushing TDs. He retired #1 in receptions and #2 in receiving yards for a RB in NFL history. He retired with the most 100+ yard rushing games and 1000+ yard rushing seasons in NFL history. And after missing a game in his rookie season, he didn't miss another game in the rest of his career, playing 186 straight games.

Aside from all that, Payton was arguably the most well rounded RB in history. He was a great runner, receiver, and blocker. He ran equally well to the outside and up the middle (or over the middle). He was great in short yardage and goalline situations as well as other running situations. He was the Bears' emergency QB, and he passed for 8 TDs in his career. He was the Bears' emergency kicker and punter for part of his career. He didn't return many kickoffs (17), but he averaged 31.7 yards per return, and led the NFL in kickoff return average the one season that he returned more than 2 kickoffs (1975). He was also known as a great leader, and he was such a great person and class act off the field, the NFL's man of the year award is named after him.

I think for all these reasons, he is the best RB, and possibly the best football player, in NFL history.

I also found this post I made about Payton vs. Brown:

Brown is the only back I would consider comparing to Payton, and I admit I didn't see him play, so that may bias my opinion.

That said, consider that Brown joined a dynasty

• 1950-56 (pre-Brown): 63-20-1 (.759), 6 postseason appearances in 7 years, 6 championship games, 3 championships
  
• 1957-1965 (with Brown): 79-34-5 (.699), 5 postseason appearances in 9 years, 3 championship games, 1 championship
  

Now compare that to Payton and the Bears:

• 1968-1974 (pre-Payton): 31-66-1 (.320), no postseason appearances
  
• 1975-1987 (with Payton): 111-83 (.572), 6 postseason appearances, 1 championship
  

How about a supporting cast comparison? Payton's is addressed above.

It seems very hard to support the notion that the Browns were not already a very, very good team when Brown joined them, which naturally implies that he was surrounded by a talented group of teammates. Remember, there was no free agency (or draft?) at that time, so it would be very hard for me to see how the talent level of a team that appeared in 6 championship games in the 7 years prior to Brown's rookie season had suddenly dropped to average or worse.

This is supported by the number of Pro Bowlers Brown played with:

• Browns QBs made the Pro Bowl 4 times in Brown's 9 seasons: Milt Plum (1960, 1961), Frank Ryan (1964, 1965).
  
• Browns WRs made the Pro Bowl 5 times in Brown's 9 seasons: Ray Renfro (1957, 1960), Bobby Mitchell (1960), Paul Warfield (1964), and Gary Collins (1965).
  
• Brown played with the following Pro Bowl offensive linemen: Art Hunter (1959), Mike McCormack (1957, 1960, 1961, 1962), Jim Smith (1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962), John Morrow (1961, 1963), #### Schafrath (1963), Gene Hickerson (1965), John Wooten (1965). That's 7 different linemen for a total of 15 times in 9 seasons, and only one season without a Pro Bowler--1964. In 6 of his seasons, Brown had 2 or more Pro Bowlers on the line.
  

To be fair, there were fewer teams when Brown played, so it stands to reason he would have played with more Pro Bowlers. Still, the difference is too big to be accounted for simply by that IMO.

Not to mention that he played most of his career for Paul Brown, one of the greatest coaches of all time.

The fewer teams also made it easier for Brown to lead the NFL in rushing, to win awards, etc. -- less competition. Brown played when there were only 12-14 teams. In Payton's first season, there were 26 teams; for the rest of his career there were 28. So Payton's 5 1st team and 3 2nd team All Pro selections are arguably as impressive as Brown's 8 1st team selections.

Also, BlueOnion posted this in an older thread:

I actually like Jim Brown quite a bit, probably more so now as a person. But Jim Brown had it easy.Not that I am saying he is not the best running back of all-time, but if I was to make an argument he was not, here is what I would start with.1) He played in an era where all the great 'athletes' played on offense. The football players that were not athletic enough to make the offensive team but still showed a lot of heart or toughness were put on the defensive side of the ball. The thought that a defensive line could potentially have better athletes than the offensive line (in any given game) would be very, very unlikely.2) Pursuit angles. Back in Jim Brown's era, coaches did not understand the importance of pursuit angles or containment and did not teach it to the same magnitude of today's game. Defenses were basically, "just go get the ball carrier".

I certainly can't verify whether these are valid points, but I found them interesting.Brown was obviously an all time great player. I just don't see evidence that Brown was better than Payton. Again, I admit that could be because I never saw him play with my own eyes, while I did see Payton play often.

Thanks for prompting me to look those up. That thread occurred when @Chase Stuartand @Maurile Tremblayand @MarshallRobwere still posting in the Shark Pool. The good old days...

 

[DropKick]

I can play this game, too. 

Kurt Warner has three times as many NFC championships as both Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees. 

Kurt Warner won the regular season MVP in his first season as a starter, something not done by Brees, Brady or Rodgers. 

Arizona had won one playoff game in 30 years before Warner took over and led them to the Super Bowl.

The Rams had averaged 5 wins a season over the 9 seasons prior, never going better than 7-9, before Warner took over and led them to 13 wins and a Super Bowl victory.

Do these cherry picked stats now make Kurt Warner the GOAT? 

No, he isn't in the conversation either.

But I guess you already knew that.

 

[32 Counter Pass]

I think this exercise is a fool’s errand. You can’t compare players in different eras. The game has changed dramatically since its inception. 

 

[wikkidpissah]

voted Brady but, if i was starting a team, the guy i'd hire @ QB would still be Roger Staubach