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Is Cam Newton the 1.01 pick in dynasty startups? (1 Viewer)

Coop, stop saying "no one has ever been used like Cam.". It's been pointed out to you several times by different people that quite a few other QBs have, in fact, been used as primary goal-line runners for short (11 game, or one season) spurts. Other QBs have had double digit rushing TD years. It's a fact. The relevant issue is the sustainability of that usage over a multi-year window, which has NEVER happened, and it's absurdly unlikely that it'll happen for Cam (continuing at close to a rushing TD per start which friggin triples the multi-year pace that any of the other best running QBs ever have sustained).
I am of the opinion that no QB has been used like Cam. If so many people have been used like Cam, why is he shattering their TD records? Why has nobody ever scored more than what Cam is on pace to do, given his first opportunity?It is either:Nobody is as well equipped, or good at it.OrNobody has been used as he is being.I think it's both. Even if you want to say players have for short periods of time, that is no reason to suggest Cam won't do so for longer. I am not going to suggest Cam can't keep doing what he is PROVING he is capable of, just because others couldn't or weren't given the opportunity to.
 
And so far I'm the only one who has tossed out any numbers. Give me your projections for Cam. Obviously you expect 15 TDs a year rushing to be his norm, because he was inevitable, reminds you of Jordan, and is in another class as a runner than the best runners at the position in NFL history. But anyone comparing him to Bradford as a rookie passer is trolling? GTFO of here.

 
And so far I'm the only one who has tossed out any numbers. Give me your projections for Cam. Obviously you expect 15 TDs a year rushing to be his norm, because he was inevitable, reminds you of Jordan, and is in another class as a runner than the best runners at the position in NFL history. But anyone comparing him to Bradford as a rookie passer is trolling? GTFO of here.
9-15 Rushing TDs/Season.I don't feel comfortable projecting his passing numbers today, for his career. But I think he will continue putting up 4,000 yard season and improve his TD/INT ratio.
 
And you might want to let him actually, you know, break the rushing TD record for a QB first before crowing about Cam shattering it. He's every bit as likely to score one more rushing or zero more TDs this year as he is to score 4+ more.

 
CDL,

Why is it so threatening for someone to think: "He is doing what nobody has done - maybe he can keep it up"

Why does it have to be too good to be true? Sure, I understand you don't want to project it, or feel comfortable saying it WILL continue. But why are you so threatened to think that it might? Why is it so out there to suggest tha he can continue to do, as he matures, what he has done as a rookie?

You keep brining up Vick - he put up QB rushing yardage numbers, per season, that nobody before him could. Why can't Cam be the TD version of Vick? Every once and a while players come along and do what those before then couldn't. Because the sample size for "running QBs" is so small, that is especially true.

 
Was Kordell Stewart not being used like Cam when he scored more running TDs than Cam currently has as a first year starter? Arguing "it's my opinion" in the face of cold hard fact is pretty ineffective.

 
And you might want to let him actually, you know, break the rushing TD record for a QB first before crowing about Cam shattering it. He's every bit as likely to score one more rushing or zero more TDs this year as he is to score 4+ more.
Fair enough. Although, I think it is a good bet. If we put the over under at 2.5 rushing TDs - I would do that. Would you take the under?
 
Was Kordell Stewart not being used like Cam when he scored more running TDs than Cam currently has as a first year starter? Arguing "it's my opinion" in the face of cold hard fact is pretty ineffective.
I would think the Bus was their goalline RB. But, I don't know that to be fact.What cold hard facts? TD total is not an indication of usage. Lendale White scored 15 TDs in a very different fashion than CJ2K does, when he scored double digit TDs.
 
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How many times did Moss catch 23 TDs? Or CJ2K get 2500 YFS? Or Brady throw 50 TDs, or LT score 31? When has it ever been a good idea to bet on any player continually putting up record breaking numbers over any reasonably long period of time? It's not threatening, it's simply foolish.

 
How many times did Moss catch 23 TDs? Or CJ2K get 2500 YFS? Or Brady throw 50 TDs, or LT score 31? When has it ever been a good idea to bet on any player continually putting up record breaking numbers over any reasonably long period of time? It's not threatening, it's simply foolish.
Let's use rookie seasons. Moss came out and had a monster rookie season. The best by a WR that I recall. He came back and had many of thoese. CJ2K improved over his rookie numbers, LT too. In Vick's first full season as a starter, he ran for 777 yards. He ended up doing that again.EDIT: I am not projecting 16 every year.
 
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It's pretty easy to find out that Bettis had 7 rushing TDs that year. I'm about 90% certain that Kordell, Culpepper, McNair, and Vick all have had multiple seasons as the running TD producer on an NFL team.

I'd much rather take the under on something like 25 total running TDs for Cam for the four years from 2012-2015 as opposed to the much greater variance possible within a short 5 game span.

 
It's pretty easy to find out that Bettis had 7 rushing TDs that year. I'm about 90% certain that Kordell, Culpepper, McNair, and Vick all have had multiple seasons as the running TD producer on an NFL team.I'd much rather take the under on something like 25 total running TDs for Cam for the four years from 2012-2015 as opposed to the much greater variance possible within a short 5 game span.
As I stated, TD total is not an idication of usage. Was Kordell the goalline back? Honest question. And if we determine he was, it was for one year. Because Kordell may or may not have been the goalline back for one season, doesn't mean the Panthers stop using Newton as theirs. Newton is bigger and stonger than Kordell.
 
How many times did Moss catch 23 TDs? Or CJ2K get 2500 YFS? Or Brady throw 50 TDs, or LT score 31? When has it ever been a good idea to bet on any player continually putting up record breaking numbers over any reasonably long period of time? It's not threatening, it's simply foolish.
Let's use rookie seasons. Moss came out and had a monster rookie season. The best by a WR that I recall. He came back and had many of thoese. CJ2K improved over his rookie numbers, LT too. In Vick's first full season as a starter, he ran for 777 yards. He ended up doing that again.EDIT: I am not projecting 16 every year.
I keep seeing people ASSUME Cam is going to have a decent statistical improvement and it continues to baffle me. It literally is the same as projecting Randy Moss to CONSISTENTLY IMPROVE on his 17 touchdown rookie performance. Huh? In Randy Moss' rookie season, he had 233.3 fantasy points. His career average was 214.95 (and that's taking out his final season, which would further lower his total if we included it). Possibly the best receiver of all time from a physical standpoint averaged significantly above his career average in his rookie season and you are using him as evidence why Cam is naturally going to improve upon his rookie performance? What am I missing here?
 
You keep bringing up wins and losses - you know that is irrelevant.
As I said in the thread you started, it is irrelevant today but will be highly relevant next year and the year after. There won't be any excuses. Philly's defense took a step back but that is not an excuse for Vick losing games in his 2nd year as starter. I won't have any problem if he blossoms into a winning QB like Tebow has (haha, just kidding) but special QBs will teams to victories and Cam hasn't shown that yet. He has willed them to losing by 7 instead of 17 but not to victories. He needs to be a special QB in all aspects to be taken over Rodgers given Rodgers' age and outlook. This is not as much a knock on Cam than it is a statement on the value of Rodgers (and Calvin). Elite players that lack risk are rare. Cam is not in that category yet. There is risk, from many different angles. That's why (re: the older thread) Peyton was worth more than Daunte even when Daunte had better FF numbers. In this case we don't even have Cam outscoring Rodgers, just the hope that he can continue to be competitive with the best QB in the league.
Look at the offensive production, compared to what it was last year. That is the best indication of the impact Cam has had. Or, look at the point differential, even, compared to last year.
To use the fact that the offense was bad last year as proof is a whole lot of blah blah blah. Pretty sure they could have brought Vinny Testaverde back for another go and he'd have improved the offense at 60 yo or however old he is. The parts were there (RB, Smith, OL) and parts were added (2 TEs). Hats off to Rivera, he was set up ok. Carolina's offense still isn't any/much better than Cincy's this year.
Why do you tell us where you rank him among QBs, then overall, and what you think a reasonable point total for Cam, per season, going forward is?
Pretty sure I and others have pointed out both in this thread and the one you started we are quibbling over #2QB or #1, top 5 overall or top 1. It is still a huge leap of faith. You could make the same thread about taking Green over Calvin based on more years left, room to grow, that Calvin won't repeat this pace, and all those points are fine, but it's not enough.
 
How many times did Moss catch 23 TDs? Or CJ2K get 2500 YFS? Or Brady throw 50 TDs, or LT score 31? When has it ever been a good idea to bet on any player continually putting up record breaking numbers over any reasonably long period of time? It's not threatening, it's simply foolish.
Let's use rookie seasons. Moss came out and had a monster rookie season. The best by a WR that I recall. He came back and had many of thoese. CJ2K improved over his rookie numbers, LT too. In Vick's first full season as a starter, he ran for 777 yards. He ended up doing that again.EDIT: I am not projecting 16 every year.
I keep seeing people ASSUME Cam is going to have a decent statistical improvement and it continues to baffle me. It literally is the same as projecting Randy Moss to CONSISTENTLY IMPROVE on his 17 touchdown rookie performance. Huh? In Randy Moss' rookie season, he had 233.3 fantasy points. His career average was 214.95 (and that's taking out his final season, which would further lower his total if we included it). Possibly the best receiver of all time from a physical standpoint averaged significantly above his career average in his rookie season and you are using him as evidence why Cam is naturally going to improve upon his rookie performance? What am I missing here?
You are missing the fact that I never suggested Cam's TD numbers would spike. Just not fall of the face of the earth. 9-16/year for the next few.
 
Was Kordell Stewart not being used like Cam when he scored more running TDs than Cam currently has as a first year starter? Arguing "it's my opinion" in the face of cold hard fact is pretty ineffective.
I would think the Bus was their goalline RB. But, I don't know that to be fact.What cold hard facts? TD total is not an indication of usage. Lendale White scored 15 TDs in a very different fashion than CJ2K does, when he scored double digit TDs.
I laid out the game logs indicating that the Panthers are no longer using Cam Newton as their goal line back of choice. Is that a good enough indicator of usage for you? I can pull the play by play game logs to further confirm this point if you desire, but I watched the games and can tell you that he isn't being used in that role over the last 6 games. So you are assuming double digit touchdowns every season that are going to have to come from some other source than consistent goal line production. That seems the definition of wishful thinking, no?Additionally, I think the point Coeur de Lion is trying to make is not that you are projecting Cam to be better than any rushing quarterback ever. I have a feeling he may not agree, but wouldn't be arguing it as strongly. I tend to think his issue is that you aren't just predicting Cam will be better, but he will be head, shoulders, chest, waste, legs, feet, and toes better and will go on to obliterate records to the point that they will never again be touched by another player.
 
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Pretty sure I and others have pointed out both in this thread and the one you started we are quibbling over #2QB or #1, top 5 overall or top 1. It is still a huge leap of faith. You could make the same thread about taking Green over Calvin based on more years left, room to grow, that Calvin won't repeat this pace, and all those points are fine, but it's not enough.
If AJ Green came in and scored a good deal more than Calvin had up to this point, it would be a conversation to have.Leap of faith, sure. One veteran is clearly the safer bet. Again, Cam has scored 3 points a game less than the best QB season of all time, as a rookie, and has only thrown for 12 TDs. That is not the same as Green vs. Calvin.
 
How many times did Moss catch 23 TDs? Or CJ2K get 2500 YFS? Or Brady throw 50 TDs, or LT score 31? When has it ever been a good idea to bet on any player continually putting up record breaking numbers over any reasonably long period of time? It's not threatening, it's simply foolish.
Let's use rookie seasons. Moss came out and had a monster rookie season. The best by a WR that I recall. He came back and had many of thoese. CJ2K improved over his rookie numbers, LT too. In Vick's first full season as a starter, he ran for 777 yards. He ended up doing that again.EDIT: I am not projecting 16 every year.
I keep seeing people ASSUME Cam is going to have a decent statistical improvement and it continues to baffle me. It literally is the same as projecting Randy Moss to CONSISTENTLY IMPROVE on his 17 touchdown rookie performance. Huh? In Randy Moss' rookie season, he had 233.3 fantasy points. His career average was 214.95 (and that's taking out his final season, which would further lower his total if we included it). Possibly the best receiver of all time from a physical standpoint averaged significantly above his career average in his rookie season and you are using him as evidence why Cam is naturally going to improve upon his rookie performance? What am I missing here?
You are missing the fact that I never suggested Cam's TD numbers would spike. Just not fall of the face of the earth. 9-16/year for the next few.
But you are suggesting that Cam's passing stats will rise fairly significantly while his rushing production will maintain it's current level. That's the equivalent of expecting Moss to maintain his 17 touchdown total while projecting a decent improvement on his 1,313 yards as a rookie. Huh? The reality is that the production of a rookie doesn't automatically rise simply because they are no longer a rookie. You are making the mistake of assuming it does. The far more logical assumption is that Cam's play will improve, but his stats, just like Moss', have no realistic room to improve to any dramatic extent (and just like Moss are FAR more likely to fall back a bit). I believe Randy Moss was a better player than Cam Newton is and even he was not immune to the normalization of his stats after his rookie season despite the fact that he was a better player in year 2 than he was year 1, and in year 3 than he was in year 2, and so on.
 
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[Additionally, I think the point Coeur de Lion is trying to make is not that you are projecting Cam to be better than any rushing quarterback ever. I have a feeling he may not agree, but wouldn't be arguing it as strongly. I tend to think his issue is that you aren't just predicting Cam will be better, but he will be head, shoulders, chest, waste, legs, feet, and toes better and will go on to obliterate records to the point that they will never again be touched by another player.
No. I am projecting Cam to continue being a threat to score 9+ TDs a season. If that makes him the best ever in your eys, or CDL's, fine. But that is you making that claim, not me.Michael Vick is the best running QB ever, but he wasn't built to hold up, wasn't as smart as Cam is about taking hits, and wasn't the threat that Cam is in the redzone. Again, I am projecting 9+ TDs moving forward. I am not going to alter that becasue past QBs (very small samlpe size) couldn't or weren't given the opportunity to do what I feel the 6'4" 240 pound Newton is.
 
But you are suggesting that Cam's passing stats will rise fairly significantly while his rushing production will maintain it's current level. That's the exact equivalent of expecting Moss to maintain his 17 touchdown total while projecting a decent improvement on his 1,313 yards as a rookie? Huh? The reality is that the production of a rookie doesn't automatically rise simply because they are no longer a rookie. You are making the mistake of assuming it does. The far more logical assumption is that Cam's play will improve, but his stats, just like Moss', have no realistic room to improve to any dramatic extent (and just like Moss are FAR more likely to fall back a bit).
You guys keep putting words in my mouth. I am not projecting Newton to score 15+ every season. My projection was 9-16. That would be like me suggesting Moss would continue to score 12-17/year. And the comparison still falls short. The sample size for WRs was very well established and consistent. If anyone has been used like Newton, it was for small periods of time, less effectively. What historic blueprint or comparisons do we really have??
 
That's the equivalent of expecting Moss to maintain his 17 touchdown total while projecting a decent improvement on his 1,313 yards as a rookie. Huh?
If you want to use Randy Moss, his career average, per game started, was roughly 80% of his rookie year TD production, and 94% of his yards. Receptions improved. That would put Newton's TD total at 12.8 (right in the middle of my projections) with his yardage essentially the same.
 
this is a fascinating thread.... i have a hard time understanding why people might think that Cam may not improve as a player. Are we to believe that he came into the league without a training camp as a fully formed NFL QB? Can he improve on his accuracy and decisions? Will he have the talent around him to improve, especially considering SSmith is getting up there in age? His potential in FF and real footbal, which has been actualized to the extent that his rookie numbers are better than anyone could have projected, is off the charts (LeBron like)

Where we get bogged down is in the numbers, which has always been the problem with projections. It is akin to the "at this rate" argument.

To the original topic of this thread, I would say he is easily in the Top 6, and that is probably a function of how as FF Owners we prefer to build our teams.

 
Projecting 9 TDs rushing a year as a LOW END moving forward for Cam Newton is patently absurd, when no one else has ever even averaged 2/3 of that (your FLOOR for Cam) over a five year window. The stats you project him for (again, using your FLOOR for him) have him breezing past the all-time mark for QBs in the first or second game in his fifth year. Incidentally, that record was set by a guy who operated out of the old T formation or something when they ran 90% of the time. Pretty sure that you are indeed calling him the greatest running QB ever. And that's your stated LOW END projection. Obviously your high end projection is so laughable that it's not even worth comment.

And again, the 4 QBs I mentioned were absolutely used as goal-line RBs. That's generally a good way to describe guys getting more running TDs and attempts inside the 5 than anyone else on their team for multiple years. Your "if I didn't see it, it didn't happen" shtick is seriously annoying man. It's also pretty much what killed the big dynasty thread for so long. But carry on...

 
this is a fascinating thread.... i have a hard time understanding why people might think that Cam may not improve as a player. Are we to believe that he came into the league without a training camp as a fully formed NFL QB? Can he improve on his accuracy and decisions? Will he have the talent around him to improve, especially considering SSmith is getting up there in age? His potential in FF and real footbal, which has been actualized to the extent that his rookie numbers are better than anyone could have projected, is off the charts (LeBron like)

Where we get bogged down is in the numbers, which has always been the problem with projections. It is akin to the "at this rate" argument.

To the original topic of this thread, I would say he is easily in the Top 6, and that is probably a function of how as FF Owners we prefer to build our teams.
Agree.Additionally, I absolutely expect Cam to improve as a player, probably significantly. I just tend to believe statistics aren't based entirely on talent and performances that go significantly above and beyond the norm take a certain amount of right place, right time scenarios to happen. There is a reason players don't repeat historic performances if/when they have them and it isn't because they suddenly lose their talent. It's because the odds that the circumstances align to allow it to happen again are remote at best.

I'm not sure why a statistical regression (at least in terms of fantasy football points) has to indicate a lack of improvement from the player. It doesn't at all and the 2 are not mutually exclusive. You can improve dramatically as a player while not improving and/or regressing from a statistical standpoint.

 
Projecting 9 TDs rushing a year as a LOW END moving forward for Cam Newton is patently absurd, when no one else has ever even averaged 2/3 of that (your FLOOR for Cam) over a five year window. The stats you project him for (again, using your FLOOR for him) have him breezing past the all-time mark for QBs in the first or second game in his fifth year. Incidentally, that record was set by a guy who operated out of the old T formation or something when they ran 90% of the time. Pretty sure that you are indeed calling him the greatest running QB ever. And that's your stated LOW END projection. Obviously your high end projection is so laughable that it's not even worth comment.And again, the 4 QBs I mentioned were absolutely used as goal-line RBs. That's generally a good way to describe guys getting more running TDs and attempts inside the 5 than anyone else on their team for multiple years. Your "if I didn't see it, it didn't happen" shtick is seriously annoying man. It's also pretty much what killed the big dynasty thread for so long. But carry on...
If me thinking he can simply keep doing what he has as a rookie is "so laughabel that it's not even worth comment", I don't know what to say. I get it. It hasn't been done before, so, to you, it can't happen. The notion of it happening is insane, even.I don't agree with that logic. Not sure what you take personally about that. Lastly, if Cam is breaking records, he is at least one of the two:Better than those before him at scoringor Being given more opportunity than those before himWhich?
 
The entire argument for Cam at 1.01 is that in his first year as the starter he has showed great promise as a passer and if he can improve those numbers and become elite in that category it will make him unstoppable alongside his rushing numbers. That is the exact argument that was used on all those other guys you're now berating as "obviously not very good passers". They all showed the same promise that Cam did. They all teased us with "if he can just improve those passing numbers, which at this point looks like it's obviously going to happen".

They all looked promising passing the ball based on their first year, just like Cam does now. The only major difference is in attempts per game, where Cam's attempts through 11 games are about what they threw in 16. A large part of that is likely the Panthers' porous defense which may or may not be something you can bank on going forward.

Here are the stats of each in their first year as a starter. Looks pretty darn similar to me.

Cam: 239-392 60.9% Completion Percentage 3,093yds 7.9ypa 12td 14int 81.1rat

Kordell: 236-440 53.6% Completion Percentage 3,020yds 7.0ypa 21td 17int 75.2rat

Vick: 231-421 54.9% Completion Percentage 2,936yds 7.0ypa 16td 8int 81.6rat

Cpep: 297-464 3,937yds 8.3ypa 33td 16int 98.0rat

If we sort the four of them by efficiency numbers then Cam is 2nd out of 4 in ypa, 3rd out of 4 in QB rating, and last out of 4 in TD/INT ratio. That hardly leaves him in uncharted territory.

The point you're making is just hindsight, plain and simple. You know now that guys like Vick and Kordell never developed into good passers so you're forgetting that they also looked promising in their first season as starters. The numbers they put up are solid starts to a career even for a pocket quarterback, so the idea of them continuing to improve as a passer was there for them every bit as much as it is for Cam now.
Fixed the above in red for you. Kordell and Vick were never believed to be as strong passers in their rookie year as Cam is showing. Culpepper was fantastic in his first year starting, and Cam putting up those numbers would be very strong.
Not to mention that, from a supporting cast standpoint, Carolina had the worst Offense in the league last year. CPep had Moss, Carter and Reed.Also, Cam only started one year in college, so from an experience standpoint, he is raw.

 
Agree.Additionally, I absolutely expect Cam to improve as a player, probably significantly. I just tend to believe statistics aren't based entirely on talent and performances that go significantly above and beyond the norm take a certain amount of right place, right time scenarios to happen. There is a reason players don't repeat historic performances if/when they have them and it isn't because they suddenly lose their talent. It's because the odds that the circumstances align to allow it to happen again are remote at best.I'm not sure why a statistical regression (at least in terms of fantasy football points) has to indicate a lack of improvement from the player. It doesn't at all and the 2 are not mutually exclusive. You can improve dramatically as a player while not improving and/or regressing from a statistical standpoint.
Herm, we are probably closer on this that is coming off. I'll point this out, the sample size needed to declare Newton's numbers historic, simply isn't there. If players have been used like him in the past, it was for small stretches, if at all. Tebow and Newton will both break or be near rushing TD records if they stay healhty and continue to get the opportunity. The fact that players, not built like them and/or not given their opportunity, didn't score more TDs, does nothing to suggest Tebow an Newton can't.
 
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Cam has 10 running TDs in 11 games because he's a damn good running QB on a ridiculous hot streak. Neither his running ability nor his red zone usage is in any way, shape, or form unique, as has been illustrated multiple times by myself and others.

Other equally good running QBs who were used the EXACT same way have never ever averaged more than 5.5 TDs per season over an extended period of time.

No similar record-shattering pace has EVER been sustainable by ANY other player at ANY position EVER, despite the fact that dozens of players at EVERY position have had ridiculous 11 game hot streaks.

I'm saying that Cam is merely elite as a running QB. I have him at about 6 TDs / year moving forward, which incidentally also makes him statistically the greatest running QB ever.

Your 9-16 range makes him the most dominant athlete in any sport ever, doubling to tripling the previous bests in his category. If that's not laughable after 11 games, then WTF is?

 
Last attempt:Cam has 10 running TDs in 11 games because he's a damn good running QB on a ridiculous hot streak. Neither his running ability nor his red zone usage is in any way, shape, or form unique, as has been illustrated multiple times by myself and others.Other equally good running QBs who were used the EXACT same way have never ever averaged more than 5.5 TDs per season over an extended period of time.No similar record-shattering pace has EVER been sustainable by ANY other player at ANY position EVER, despite the fact that dozens of players at EVERY position have had ridiculous 11 game hot streaks.I'm saying that Cam is merely elite as a running QB. I have him at about 6 TDs / year moving forward, which incidentally also makes him statistically the greatest running QB ever.Your 9-16 range makes him the most dominant athlete in any sport ever, doubling to tripling the previous bests in his category. If that's not laughable after 11 games, then WTF is?
"The sample size needed to declare Newton's numbers historic, simply isn't there. If players have been used like him in the past, it was for small stretches, if at all. Tebow and Newton will both break or be near rushing TD records if they stay healhty and continue to get the opportunity. The fact that players, not built like them and/or not given their opportunity, didn't score more TDs, does nothing to suggest Tebow an Newton can't."
 
I'm about 90% certain that Kordell, Culpepper, McNair, and Vick all have had multiple seasons as the running TD producer on an NFL team.
They all had seasons where they had high rushing TD totals - with some of those TDs coming at the goal-line on sneaks or bootlegs - but none were used as the primary "goal-line back" for their teams.The only other QB that has been used like Cam is (in that regard) is Tebow now.I wouldn't necessarily bet on either Newton or Tebow being their teams exlusive "goal-line back" going forward though.My take on this is Newton is a special talent and should be a perpetual Top 5 QB when healthy - but I think there are safer options for the No. 1 pick in a start up draft. I could definately see him as a first round pick and how high would come down to personal preference. I'd say anywhere after the first 3-4 picks would warrant consideration but would certainly not be a "no brainer" for me. Also I own (and start) Newton in 2 of my 3 dynasty leagues and would certainly trade him for Aaron Rodgers or Calvin Johnson immediately after I saw the offer - after those two I'd have to think over any off I received and see how it fit my team.
 
Why then, have multiple guys done the same thing for 11 or 16 games, but not for a multi-year window? Is Cam just that much better, 200% - 300% better than Vick, Kordell, McNair, Culpepper as a runner only? Because that's what you are essentially saying here.

Is my "best running QB ever who also has elite passing potential" estimate of his value WAY TOO LOW?!?!

 
Why then, have multiple guys done the same thing for 11 or 16 games, but not for a multi-year window? Is Cam just that much better, 200% - 300% better than Vick, Kordell, McNair, Culpepper as a runner only? Because that's what you are essentially saying here.Is my "best running QB ever who also has elite passing potential" estimate of his value WAY TOO LOW?!?!
I am not sure what you are missing here.Nobody has gotten the opportunity that Cam has, long term. That doesn't mean anything other than that. That does't mean he is 300% better than anyone.Again, the sample size is way too small to flag Newton's production as an anomoly.
 
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Agree.Additionally, I absolutely expect Cam to improve as a player, probably significantly. I just tend to believe statistics aren't based entirely on talent and performances that go significantly above and beyond the norm take a certain amount of right place, right time scenarios to happen. There is a reason players don't repeat historic performances if/when they have them and it isn't because they suddenly lose their talent. It's because the odds that the circumstances align to allow it to happen again are remote at best.I'm not sure why a statistical regression (at least in terms of fantasy football points) has to indicate a lack of improvement from the player. It doesn't at all and the 2 are not mutually exclusive. You can improve dramatically as a player while not improving and/or regressing from a statistical standpoint.
Herm, we are probably closer on this that is coming off. I'll point this out, the sample size needed to declare Newton's numbers historic, simply isn't there. If players have been used like him in the past, it was for small stretches, if at all. Tebow and Newton will both break or be near rushing TD records if they stay healhty and continue to get the opportunity. The fact that players, not built like them and/or not given their opportunity, didn't score more TDs, does nothing to suggest Tebow an Newton can't.
While I agree for the most part, you have continued to ignore my posts relaying the game logs for Cam Newton's season thus far. They are showing that his own team is only using him like you are suggesting, as a goal line back and preferred rushing option, for a small stretch. That's not to say it won't return, but there has been a marked shift from "run Cam 4 times from the 1" in the first 5 games to "hand off to running backs and throw with Cam from the 1" in the last 6 games. All of Cam's short passing touchdowns and all of the short running back touchdowns have all come within the last 6 games. Contrast that to Newton, who had all of his short yardage rushing touchdowns come in the first 5 games and since has had all but 1 come from beyond 10 yards (and that 1 was 6 yards out, hardly making it a goal line opportunity).I guess what I'm trying to say is that I expect the Panthers to cease using Newton as the goal line back and in fact, data shows they already have. Whether they begin doing it again or not is up for question, but it shows that the Panthers have no intention of using him in that role for anything more than small stretches. To hit 9-16 rushing touchdowns on a yearly basis, he is going to HAVE to be the goal line back every year. He's a great player and a great runner, but there's simply no way he will reach those heights on a yearly basis if he only gets a goal line shot here and there and otherwise has to run it in from distance. Part of your argument negating other players people have brought up as examples to challenge your predictions is that no player has been used as a true goal line back for anything but small stretches, but my point is that neither has Cam Newton. It's a terribly small sample size and I understand that, but at this point it is all we have to go on. Because of this, I see his rushing touchdown production as no more sustainable than those other players and expect it to drop. To compensate for that, I DO expect a very solid increase in overall passing performance to go along with what will still be incredible rushing statistics, making him a top 3 quarterback every year.Let me also add that I don't necessarily agree with some of the players being brought up as examples to refute your prediction. I think that for anyone who has watched them play, the difference between Cam Newton and Kordell Stewart or Steve McNair is night and day. When watching Cam, it's pretty apparent he has "it" and it's simply a matter of when. With all those other players, it was never an assumption that they were a star, as it is with Cam, but rather a question if they could ever become a star. My only assertion is that while Cam is a star and on a different level than anything we have seen before, to assume that level is 9-16 rushing touchdowns a season plus what I believe will be top notch passing production is not being realistic. Way, way, way too much has to go JUST right (running back injuries, defense continuing to be very poor, lots of goal line opportunities for the team, etc...) for it to ever be counted on to that level on a regular basis.
 
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And so far I'm the only one who has tossed out any numbers. Give me your projections for Cam. Obviously you expect 15 TDs a year rushing to be his norm, because he was inevitable, reminds you of Jordan, and is in another class as a runner than the best runners at the position in NFL history. But anyone comparing him to Bradford as a rookie passer is trolling? GTFO of here.
9-15 Rushing TDs/Season.I don't feel comfortable projecting his passing numbers today, for his career. But I think he will continue putting up 4,000 yard season and improve his TD/INT ratio.
Are you kidding? Emmitt Smith the most prolific TD scorer ever from a rushing perspective (in an era where the ball was run more than today) averaged less than 12/year. 9-15 will average out to 12. You're predicting him to be up there with the best rushers in history. Do you not have any perspective???Yes Tomlison is averaging 14 but his numbers will come down if he stays in the league a few more years because most likely his 20+ TD days are over.
 
Running QBs learn to buy time to throw. They get bruised ribs. The scheme changes. The huge, powerful and potentially elite young RB starts actually getting used in the red zone. The defense gets better. The offense gets worse. A new coaching staff comes in with a new philosophy. The owner doesn't want his $100 million man barreling over LBs.

Alot of things have to fall into place for the situation to exist in which a QB can get 10 rushing TDs in 11 games. Those things have never lasted.

And sample size works in favor of my side of the argument. 11 games is FAR too few to use to project moving forward. The 100s of games by other NFL QBs with elite rushing ability is has much more predictive value.

 
And so far I'm the only one who has tossed out any numbers. Give me your projections for Cam. Obviously you expect 15 TDs a year rushing to be his norm, because he was inevitable, reminds you of Jordan, and is in another class as a runner than the best runners at the position in NFL history. But anyone comparing him to Bradford as a rookie passer is trolling? GTFO of here.
9-15 Rushing TDs/Season.I don't feel comfortable projecting his passing numbers today, for his career. But I think he will continue putting up 4,000 yard season and improve his TD/INT ratio.
Are you kidding? Emmitt Smith the most prolific TD scorer ever from a rushing perspective (in an era where the ball was run more than today) averaged less than 12/year. 9-15 will average out to 12. You're predicting him to be up there with the best rushers in history. Do you not have any perspective???Yes Tomlison is averaging 14 but his numbers will come down if he stays in the league a few more years because most likely his 20+ TD days are over.
Any perspective? Let's see. In his first season, he is on pace for 16 rushing TDs. I set his max at 16, meaning, he could do it again, only under near perfect circumstances. That is crazy? To think he MIGHT be able to do again what he did as a rookie?Who says anything about him being one of the best rushers in history, outside of the QB only conversation? It seems much more illogical to say: "I know he did it with is ONLY opportunity. But it is insane to think he could do it again. Insane!"
 
While I agree for the most part, you have continued to ignore my posts relaying the game logs for Cam Newton's season thus far. They are showing that his own team is only using him like you are suggesting, as a goal line back and preferred rushing option, for a small stretch.
Not at all. I commented on it.1. The Panthers have been scoring from farther out, including Newtons TD runs. In other words, less goal line opportunities.2. When they call a zone read, and Cam hands it to a RB, it doesn't mean he isn't being used as a goal line back. It means the defense dictated that hand it off. They can't do that everytime.
 
And so far I'm the only one who has tossed out any numbers. Give me your projections for Cam. Obviously you expect 15 TDs a year rushing to be his norm, because he was inevitable, reminds you of Jordan, and is in another class as a runner than the best runners at the position in NFL history. But anyone comparing him to Bradford as a rookie passer is trolling? GTFO of here.
9-15 Rushing TDs/Season.I don't feel comfortable projecting his passing numbers today, for his career. But I think he will continue putting up 4,000 yard season and improve his TD/INT ratio.
Are you kidding? Emmitt Smith the most prolific TD scorer ever from a rushing perspective (in an era where the ball was run more than today) averaged less than 12/year. 9-15 will average out to 12. You're predicting him to be up there with the best rushers in history. Do you not have any perspective???Yes Tomlison is averaging 14 but his numbers will come down if he stays in the league a few more years because most likely his 20+ TD days are over.
Any perspective? Let's see. In his first season, he is on pace for 16 rushing TDs. I set his max at 16, meaning, he could do it again, only under near perfect circumstances. That is crazy? To think he MIGHT be able to do again what he did as a rookie?Who says anything about him being one of the best rushers in history, outside of the QB only conversation? It seems much more illogical to say: "I know he did it with is ONLY opportunity. But it is insane to think he could do it again. Insane!"
11 games into a QBs career (who is no longer the goalline back as was pointed out) you're predicting his rushing TDs to be the best in NFL history. Not the best QB rushing TDs. The best by any position including RBs. That's ridiculous.Do you think that Cam Newton will score more rushing TDs than any player (including RBs) in NFL history? Because if you don't your projections are wrong.
 
11 games into a QBs career (who is no longer the goalline back as was pointed out) you're predicting his rushing TDs to be the best in NFL history. Not the best QB rushing TDs. The best by any position including RBs. That's ridiculous.Do you think that Cam Newton will score more rushing TDs than any player (including RBs) in NFL history? Because if you don't your projections are wrong.
He is the goal line back.Since when did TD total dictate a players overall skill level? It is easier for a rushing QBto score at the goal line - 11 vs. 11. That doesn't mean Cam is better than any RB - just that he is a better goal line threat. Tebow broke the SEC rushing TD record. Does that mean he is a better runner than the hundreds of SEC RBs? No.I am not going to project his career totals. That is silly. For the foreseeable future, I think 9-16 is reasonable. When that changes, my projections would change too.
 
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I laid out the game logs indicating that the Panthers are no longer using Cam Newton as their goal line back of choice. Is that a good enough indicator of usage for you? I can pull the play by play game logs to further confirm this point if you desire, but I watched the games and can tell you that he isn't being used in that role over the last 6 games.
If you watched the games, you know that the Panthers have scored 3 non-Cam Goalline TDs all year. Yes, they all came after week 5. But, two of them where the same play: Shotgun, Cam has run/give option. He made the right play on both of them, dictated by the defense. That will be a QB score as often as not. Cam has scored more than the RBs, when they run that play.And yes. ONCE Stewart scored from a traditional set.
 
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I hear what you're saying about the ten rushing TDs. Maybe it's unrealistic to expect this kind of pace from Newton in the future. However, I think it's likely that his passing stats (particularly his TD numbers) will improve in future seasons. That would partially offset the loss of the rushing points.
This same argument was used for Vick early in his career. He never truly delivered on that potential; the closest was last season, but even then he missed multiple games due to his running style.Just because Newton is bigger doesn't mean he is immune to injury.Speaking of Vick, this thread reminds me of last season, when there was a similar thread, but for redraft, asking if Vick would be the #1 pick this season. I didn't think he should be, but many did. That didn't work out well for those who bought into the hype.No way would I take Newton over Rodgers in the near future (barring severe injury to Rodgers).
 
Kordell is a weak comparison because he was a bad passer. He never eclipsed 7.0 yards per attempt in his entire career (Cam is averaging 7.9 right now). In Kordell's first three seasons of extensive playing time he averaged 6.9, 5.6, and 5.3. That's really bad. He was a terrible QB.

Same with Vick, to a lesser extent. Not a good thrower despite his arm strength. Even factoring in last year's explosion in a very friendly offense, he still only averages 7.0 yards per attempt and 55.9% completions on his career. Cam is doing much better than that right now.

Culpepper is closer when you look at the numbers. I think Cam is a better runner and passer. He doesn't benefit from the crutch named Randy Moss, who made every QB look good (although Steve Smith is no slouch). If Cam turns out to be a slightly better version of Culpepper then he should have a very nice run as an elite FF player.
This is a poor comparison because you're applying what people are worried about happening with Cam to the guys it already happened to.Forget the first 3 years. The first 3 years aren't the point because the fear with Cam is predicated on a running QB that shows promise passing the ball but either regresses or fails to improve.

The entire argument for Cam at 1.01 is that in his first year as the starter he has showed great promise as a passer and if he can improve those numbers and become elite in that category it will make him unstoppable alongside his rushing numbers. That is the exact argument that was used on all those other guys you're now berating as "obviously not very good passers". They all showed the same promise that Cam did. They all teased us with "if he can just improve those passing numbers, which at this point looks like it's obviously going to happen".

They all looked promising passing the ball based on their first year, just like Cam does now. The only major difference is in attempts per game, where Cam's attempts through 11 games are about what they threw in 16. A large part of that is likely the Panthers' porous defense which may or may not be something you can bank on going forward.

Here are the stats of each in their first year as a starter. Looks pretty darn similar to me.

Cam: 239-392 3,093yds 7.9ypa 12td 14int 81.1rat

Kordell: 236-440 3,020yds 7.0ypa 21td 17int 75.2rat

Vick: 231-421 2,936yds 7.0ypa 16td 8int 81.6rat

Cpep: 297-464 3,937yds 8.3ypa 33td 16int 98.0rat

If we sort the four of them by efficiency numbers then Cam is 2nd out of 4 in ypa, 3rd out of 4 in QB rating, and last out of 4 in TD/INT ratio. That hardly leaves him in uncharted territory.

The point you're making is just hindsight, plain and simple. You know now that guys like Vick and Kordell never developed into good passers so you're forgetting that they also looked promising in their first season as starters. The numbers they put up are solid starts to a career even for a pocket quarterback, so the idea of them continuing to improve as a passer was there for them every bit as much as it is for Cam now.
:goodposting:
 
'Concept Coop said:
He is the goal line back.
Why are you guys debating this without actually looking up the numbers?Cam has 9 rushing attempts from the opponent's 5 yard line and closer. Stewart has 8. Williams has 1. That's all of Carolina's rushing attempts from the opponent's 5 yard line and closer.So Cam is averaging less than 1 goal line rushing attempt per game. Yet he is going to get 9-16 rushing TDs regularly?The stuff being thrown out here is way off base IMO. His rushing TDs will definitely drop. In fact, it is likely he will never again reach as many as he already has this season.
 
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Rodgers has many huge years left. Can't imagine another QB taken before him.
Just turned 28. Favre never got back because when Holmgren left and Wolf retired Sherman was made GM and ran the team down. Holmgren couldn't wait to get out of Green Bay.But the staff now will stay and could be back many times in the next 8 years.
 
I probably tal/ke ARod at 1.01, but nobpdy has done what Newton has done.He came into the league a 1 year starter in college with virtually no camp. He takes over a team that threw 9 TDs all of last year. 9. He is on pace to throw for 4000 yards. No rookie has ever thrown for that many yards, ever, much less one who takes over an offense as bad as Carolina and has had as few reps as Newton has.

Completion Percentage,Rookie Season66.44 Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh, 2004 (295 attempts, 196 completions) 58.45 Dan Marino, Miami, 1983 (296 attempts, 173 completions) 57.18 Byron Leftwich, Jacksonville, 2003 (418 attempts, 239 completions)
on pace for second best all-timehis passer rating puts him in the top 4 or 5 all-time.His rushing TDs will taper off a bit, but many of those will turn into passing TDs.It will be interesting to see how he can develop with more reps and experience.
 
I probably tal/ke ARod at 1.01, but nobpdy has done what Newton has done.He came into the league a 1 year starter in college with virtually no camp. He takes over a team that threw 9 TDs all of last year. 9. He is on pace to throw for 4000 yards. No rookie has ever thrown for that many yards, ever, much less one who takes over an offense as bad as Carolina and has had as few reps as Newton has.

Completion Percentage,Rookie Season66.44 Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh, 2004 (295 attempts, 196 completions) 58.45 Dan Marino, Miami, 1983 (296 attempts, 173 completions) 57.18 Byron Leftwich, Jacksonville, 2003 (418 attempts, 239 completions)
on pace for second best all-timehis passer rating puts him in the top 4 or 5 all-time.His rushing TDs will taper off a bit, but many of those will turn into passing TDs.It will be interesting to see how he can develop with more reps and experience.
:lmao:Seriously, where are you getting these numbers? They're completely and totally fabricated.It didn't make sense to me that Marino's 58.5% was the 2nd best rookie completion percentage of all time heading into this year so I randomly typed in two guys that I thought had better (Ryan and Bradford) and sure enough they both did.I would imagine the passer rating stat is equally as fabricated. A quick check of those two shows that Matt Ryan's was much better. Heck, even Tim "the worst passer ever" Tebow's was better, albeit in only 3 starts, so I doubt it's top 4 of all-time.Andy Dalton is also ahead in passer rating and basically tied (0.9% behind) in completion pct.
 
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I love CCs projections here. Of course you are calling for something that's historic and you just can't justify it with sample sizes and previous situations. You certainly can't disprove his arguments with previous players ect, because he's calling for something that would set a new bar, so save your breath. It'll be awesome watching his career either way.

That being said, put me in the camp that thinks it's unsustainable. My feeling is he's too talented of a passer to not be pigeonholed by some coach along the way or injured on a run where the coach pulls a Rex Ryan and sits Cam down and explains that he is the face of the franchise and he has to protect the franchise better.

 
I probably tal/ke ARod at 1.01, but nobpdy has done what Newton has done.He came into the league a 1 year starter in college with virtually no camp. He takes over a team that threw 9 TDs all of last year. 9. He is on pace to throw for 4000 yards. No rookie has ever thrown for that many yards, ever, much less one who takes over an offense as bad as Carolina and has had as few reps as Newton has.

Completion Percentage,Rookie Season66.44 Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh, 2004 (295 attempts, 196 completions) 58.45 Dan Marino, Miami, 1983 (296 attempts, 173 completions) 57.18 Byron Leftwich, Jacksonville, 2003 (418 attempts, 239 completions)
on pace for second best all-timehis passer rating puts him in the top 4 or 5 all-time.His rushing TDs will taper off a bit, but many of those will turn into passing TDs.It will be interesting to see how he can develop with more reps and experience.
:lmao:Seriously, where are you getting these numbers? They're completely and totally fabricated.It didn't make sense to me that Marino's 58.5% was the 2nd best rookie completion percentage of all time heading into this year so I randomly typed in two guys that I thought had better (Ryan and Bradford) and sure enough they both did.I would imagine the passer rating stat is equally as fabricated. A quick check of those two shows that Matt Ryan's was much better. Heck, even Tim "the worst passer ever" Tebow's was better, albeit in only 3 starts, so I doubt it's top 4 of all-time.Andy Dalton is also ahead in passer rating and basically tied (0.9% behind) in completion pct.
...interesting, I cut and pasted from NFL.com....They must have ahad an outdated version out thereHere's the current top three all time
Completion Percentage,Rookie Season66.44 Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh, 2004 (295-196)61.06 Matt Ryan, Atlanta, 2008 (434-265)60.05 Joe Flacco, Baltimore, 2008 (428-257)
Cam's 61.0 still puts him on pace for top two or three all-time.We'll see how he finishes out the year, but from a pure passing standpoint, he's putting up strong numbers, all-time numbers for a rookie, much less a rookie taking over a putrid offense and not having the benefit of a full camp in the pros.current all-time passer rating
Highest Passer Rating, Rookie, Season (Qualifiers)98.1 Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh, 200496.0 Dan Marino, Miami, 198388.3 Greg Cook, Cincinnati, 1969
 

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