Is Curt Schilling a HOFer? (1 Viewer)

[wilked]

We can debate it, but I really don't doubt he will be enshrined

 

[shadyridr]

Schill will be in the Hall, absolutely. His postseason success is his spade in the hole

I have since changed my stance on this. He doesnt have the HOF statistics but he has the rings, trophies, and a memorable moment (bloody sock game) that I think he will get in. And he pitched during the steroid era which I think helps him as well. Sometimes its not all about statistics. During the peak of his career he was among the most dominant pitchers in baseball and I think thats enough for me now. And this coming from someone that hated and still hates him more than any player in baseball.

 

[shadyridr]

LMAO if you reply to my post #17 it changes to

 

[dparker713]

Cliff Eastham, Bleacher Report:

I can see all of you young guns snarling and getting ready to rebut me with a volley of SABRmetrics. Save it, I am old school and I don’t subscribe to much of that. If I wanted to learn more math I would have stayed in school longer.

Love that. Don't spout statistics at me, expect for these statistics that I'm going to spend the rest of the article quoting. Never mind they don't place the performance of the pitchers in context and rely heavily on the second worst stat after saves. This is all the math I know dangnabit and this is all the math I need!

I believe the Bleacher Report is actually a website for Red Sox fans, and Eastham says NO to Schilling.He's a stand-up guy in my book.

No idea what kind of a man Eastham is. I just know his logic is flawed and his argument is ridiculous.

 

[Thunderlips]

Cliff Eastham, Bleacher Report:

I can see all of you young guns snarling and getting ready to rebut me with a volley of SABRmetrics. Save it, I am old school and I don’t subscribe to much of that. If I wanted to learn more math I would have stayed in school longer.

Love that. Don't spout statistics at me, except for these statistics that I'm going to spend the rest of the article quoting. Never mind they don't place the performance of the pitchers in context and rely heavily on the second worst stat after saves. This is all the math I know dangnabit and this is all the math I need!

Not to mention Schilling's career took place entirely in the steriod era.

So should a Mussina or Pettite get in because of that?

 

[Thunderlips]

Schill will be in the Hall, absolutely. His postseason success is his spade in the hole

I have since changed my stance on this. He doesnt have the HOF statistics but he has the rings, trophies, and a memorable moment (bloody sock game) that I think he will get in. And he pitched during the steroid era which I think helps him as well. Sometimes its not all about statistics. During the peak of his career he was among the most dominant pitchers in baseball and I think thats enough for me now. And this coming from someone that hated and still hates him more than any player in baseball.

What trophies does he have?

 

[shadyridr]

Schill will be in the Hall, absolutely. His postseason success is his spade in the hole

I have since changed my stance on this. He doesnt have the HOF statistics but he has the rings, trophies, and a memorable moment (bloody sock game) that I think he will get in. And he pitched during the steroid era which I think helps him as well. Sometimes its not all about statistics. During the peak of his career he was among the most dominant pitchers in baseball and I think thats enough for me now. And this coming from someone that hated and still hates him more than any player in baseball.

What trophies does he have?

co-WS MVP? lol I didnt realize he finished 2nd in CY Young so many times. Didnt he win like 26 games one year?

 

[shadyridr]

ok looking at his statistics and he definitely is not a HOFer. Had one good 4 yr stretch with ARI. I guess all the media bias swayed me recently. Mussina > Schilling IMO. Ignore my previous posts lol

 

[Thunderlips]

ok looking at his statistics and he definitely is not a HOFer. Had one good 4 yr stretch with ARI. I guess all the media bias swayed me recently. Mussina > Schilling IMO. Ignore my previous posts lol

Schilling is Don Mattingly with 3 World Series championships.

 

[dparker713]

ok looking at his statistics and he definitely is not a HOFer. Had one good 4 yr stretch with ARI. I guess all the media bias swayed me recently. Mussina > Schilling IMO. Ignore my previous posts lol

Schilling is Don Mattingly with 3 World Series championships.

As a starter, outside of 2005, each year he ranged from very good to top pitcher in the game performance when healthy. He did miss significant time in 5 of his 16 seasons as a starter, but he's hardly in Mattingly territory.

 

[Raider Nation]

Schill will be in the Hall, absolutely. His postseason success is his spade in the hole

I have since changed my stance on this. He doesnt have the HOF statistics but he has the rings, trophies, and a memorable moment (bloody sock game) that I think he will get in. And he pitched during the steroid era which I think helps him as well. Sometimes its not all about statistics. During the peak of his career he was among the most dominant pitchers in baseball and I think thats enough for me now. And this coming from someone that hated and still hates him more than any player in baseball.

LMAO if you reply to my post #17 it changes to

ok looking at his statistics and he definitely is not a HOFer. Had one good 4 yr stretch with ARI. I guess all the media bias swayed me recently. Mussina > Schilling IMO. Ignore my previous posts lol

I admire your conviction on this issue.

 

[Raider Nation]

BTW, the Red Sox came back from 3-0 and N.Y. choked. Blah, Blah, Blah.

That said, does ANYONE really believe that was blood on Schilling's sock? My money is on a red Sharpie.

 

[dparker713]

BTW, the Red Sox came back from 3-0 and N.Y. choked. Blah, Blah, Blah.

That said, does ANYONE really believe that was blood on Schilling's sock? My money is on a red Sharpie.

Yep, fairly common for a sharpie to fade from red to brown over time Link

 

[David Yudkin]

ok looking at his statistics and he definitely is not a HOFer. Had one good 4 yr stretch with ARI. I guess all the media bias swayed me recently. Mussina > Schilling IMO. Ignore my previous posts lol

Schilling is Don Mattingly with 3 World Series championships.

Not exactly apples to apples. Mattingtly ranks 275th in career at bats. Schilling ranks 95th in innings pitched.I think what of what troubles some folks about Schilling is that he had a number of seasons where he did not pitch full seasons, which poses problems in evaluating him. On a per game basis, those years were still excellent. On a per year basis, it makes his yearly totals suffer some.Clearly, Schilling is not in the top tier with Clemens, Johnson, or Martinez from his generation. But his ERA+ score is the same as Tom Seaver and Bob Gibson. Schilling ended up pitching 3261 regular season innings, so it's not like he had a shortened or partial career total. Here are some comparisons of career totals from some other contemporaries . . .Schilling 8.3 H/9, 2.0 BB/9, 8.6 K/9, 1.137 WHIP, 3.46 ERA, 128 ERA+Smoltz 8.0 H/9, 2.6 BB/9, 8.0 K/9, 1.176 WHIP, 3.33 ERA, 125 ERA+Brown 8.5 H/9, 2.5 BB/9, 6.6 K/9, 1.222 WHP, 3.28 ERA, 127 ERA+Mussina 8.7 H/9, 2.0 BB/9, 7.1 K/9, 1.192 WHIP, 3.68 ERA, 123 ERA+Maddux 8.5 H/9, 1.8 BB/9, 6.1 K/9, 1.143 WHIP, 3.16 ERA, 132 ERA+Cone 7.8 H/9, 3.5 BB/9, 8.3 K/9, 1.256 WHIP, 3.46 ERA, 121 ERA+Saberhagen 8.6 H/9, 1.7 BB/9, 6.0 K/9, 1.141 WHIP, 3.34 ERA, 126 ERA+Glavine 8.8 H/9, 3.1 BB/9, 5.3 K/9, 1.314 WHIP, 3.54 ERA, 118 ERA+I think the whole steroid era thing will only serve to further muddy the waters. Most people would think that Clemens had a stronger career than Schilling and would be more deserving of a HOF spot than Schilling. But given the mess Clemens has gotten himself into, would voters side more with Schilling than Clemens?

 

[Raider Nation]

BTW, the Red Sox came back from 3-0 and N.Y. choked. Blah, Blah, Blah.

That said, does ANYONE really believe that was blood on Schilling's sock? My money is on a red Sharpie.

Yep, fairly common for a sharpie to fade from red to brown over time Link

I'm gonna go put ketchup on a sock. We'll see what color it becomes over time. Will report back.

 

[Raider Nation]

ok looking at his statistics and he definitely is not a HOFer. Had one good 4 yr stretch with ARI. I guess all the media bias swayed me recently. Mussina > Schilling IMO. Ignore my previous posts lol

Schilling is Don Mattingly with 3 World Series championships.

Not exactly apples to apples. Mattingtly ranks 275th in career at bats. Schilling ranks 95th in innings pitched.I think what of what troubles some folks about Schilling is that he had a number of seasons where he did not pitch full seasons, which poses problems in evaluating him. On a per game basis, those years were still excellent. On a per year basis, it makes his yearly totals suffer some.Clearly, Schilling is not in the top tier with Clemens, Johnson, or Martinez from his generation. But his ERA+ score is the same as Tom Seaver and Bob Gibson. Schilling ended up pitching 3261 regular season innings, so it's not like he had a shortened or partial career total. Here are some comparisons of career totals from some other contemporaries . . .Schilling 8.3 H/9, 2.0 BB/9, 8.6 K/9, 1.137 WHIP, 3.46 ERA, 128 ERA+Smoltz 8.0 H/9, 2.6 BB/9, 8.0 K/9, 1.176 WHIP, 3.33 ERA, 125 ERA+Brown 8.5 H/9, 2.5 BB/9, 6.6 K/9, 1.222 WHP, 3.28 ERA, 127 ERA+Mussina 8.7 H/9, 2.0 BB/9, 7.1 K/9, 1.192 WHIP, 3.68 ERA, 123 ERA+Maddux 8.5 H/9, 1.8 BB/9, 6.1 K/9, 1.143 WHIP, 3.16 ERA, 132 ERA+Cone 7.8 H/9, 3.5 BB/9, 8.3 K/9, 1.256 WHIP, 3.46 ERA, 121 ERA+Saberhagen 8.6 H/9, 1.7 BB/9, 6.0 K/9, 1.141 WHIP, 3.34 ERA, 126 ERA+Glavine 8.8 H/9, 3.1 BB/9, 5.3 K/9, 1.314 WHIP, 3.54 ERA, 118 ERA+I think the whole steroid era thing will only serve to further muddy the waters. Most people would think that Clemens had a stronger career than Schilling and would be more deserving of a HOF spot than Schilling. But given the mess Clemens has gotten himself into, would voters side more with Schilling than Clemens?

Re: the steroid era. Nobody can be 100% sure Schilling never juiced either. I'm speaking from personal experience here. If you take steroids then sit on the couch eating potato chips, you'll still be fat. You need to work out just as hard if not harder while "on" cycle. Steroids for a guy like Schill would increase his functional strength for his craft. Throw harder, recover faster from a previous start, increase endurance, etc. He could accomplish these things even without eating a clean diet and being in the gym four hours a day as a bodybuilder would.DID he juice? I'd say no. But nobody should bet their life on it.

 

[dparker713]

BTW, the Red Sox came back from 3-0 and N.Y. choked. Blah, Blah, Blah.

That said, does ANYONE really believe that was blood on Schilling's sock? My money is on a red Sharpie.

Yep, fairly common for a sharpie to fade from red to brown over time Link

I'm gonna go put ketchup on a sock. We'll see what color it becomes over time. Will report back.

Yeah, no idea why that would bleed.

 

[Raider Nation]

BTW, the Red Sox came back from 3-0 and N.Y. choked. Blah, Blah, Blah.

That said, does ANYONE really believe that was blood on Schilling's sock? My money is on a red Sharpie.

Yep, fairly common for a sharpie to fade from red to brown over time Link

I'm gonna go put ketchup on a sock. We'll see what color it becomes over time. Will report back.

Yeah, no idea why that would bleed.

Shopped.

 

[Thunderlips]

ok looking at his statistics and he definitely is not a HOFer. Had one good 4 yr stretch with ARI. I guess all the media bias swayed me recently. Mussina > Schilling IMO. Ignore my previous posts lol

Schilling is Don Mattingly with 3 World Series championships.

Not exactly apples to apples. Mattingtly ranks 275th in career at bats. Schilling ranks 95th in innings pitched.I think what of what troubles some folks about Schilling is that he had a number of seasons where he did not pitch full seasons, which poses problems in evaluating him. On a per game basis, those years were still excellent. On a per year basis, it makes his yearly totals suffer some.Clearly, Schilling is not in the top tier with Clemens, Johnson, or Martinez from his generation. But his ERA+ score is the same as Tom Seaver and Bob Gibson. Schilling ended up pitching 3261 regular season innings, so it's not like he had a shortened or partial career total. Here are some comparisons of career totals from some other contemporaries . . .Schilling 8.3 H/9, 2.0 BB/9, 8.6 K/9, 1.137 WHIP, 3.46 ERA, 128 ERA+Smoltz 8.0 H/9, 2.6 BB/9, 8.0 K/9, 1.176 WHIP, 3.33 ERA, 125 ERA+Brown 8.5 H/9, 2.5 BB/9, 6.6 K/9, 1.222 WHP, 3.28 ERA, 127 ERA+Mussina 8.7 H/9, 2.0 BB/9, 7.1 K/9, 1.192 WHIP, 3.68 ERA, 123 ERA+Maddux 8.5 H/9, 1.8 BB/9, 6.1 K/9, 1.143 WHIP, 3.16 ERA, 132 ERA+Cone 7.8 H/9, 3.5 BB/9, 8.3 K/9, 1.256 WHIP, 3.46 ERA, 121 ERA+Saberhagen 8.6 H/9, 1.7 BB/9, 6.0 K/9, 1.141 WHIP, 3.34 ERA, 126 ERA+Glavine 8.8 H/9, 3.1 BB/9, 5.3 K/9, 1.314 WHIP, 3.54 ERA, 118 ERA+I think the whole steroid era thing will only serve to further muddy the waters. Most people would think that Clemens had a stronger career than Schilling and would be more deserving of a HOF spot than Schilling. But given the mess Clemens has gotten himself into, would voters side more with Schilling than Clemens?

Re: the steroid era. Nobody can be 100% sure Schilling never juiced either. I'm speaking from personal experience here. If you take steroids then sit on the couch eating potato chips, you'll still be fat. You need to work out just as hard if not harder while "on" cycle. Steroids for a guy like Schill would increase his functional strength for his craft. Throw harder, recover faster from a previous start, increase endurance, etc. He could accomplish these things even without eating a clean diet and being in the gym four hours a day as a bodybuilder would.DID he juice? I'd say no. But nobody should bet their life on it.

Didn't that 93 Phils team have a gaggle of known or suspected steroid users?....I thought Inky, Dutch, Danny Jackson, Hollins, Dykstra and Duncan were all suspected or admitted?.....Ortiz and Man Ram on that Sox team as well.

 

[Raider Nation]

ok looking at his statistics and he definitely is not a HOFer. Had one good 4 yr stretch with ARI. I guess all the media bias swayed me recently. Mussina > Schilling IMO. Ignore my previous posts lol

Schilling is Don Mattingly with 3 World Series championships.

Not exactly apples to apples. Mattingtly ranks 275th in career at bats. Schilling ranks 95th in innings pitched.I think what of what troubles some folks about Schilling is that he had a number of seasons where he did not pitch full seasons, which poses problems in evaluating him. On a per game basis, those years were still excellent. On a per year basis, it makes his yearly totals suffer some.Clearly, Schilling is not in the top tier with Clemens, Johnson, or Martinez from his generation. But his ERA+ score is the same as Tom Seaver and Bob Gibson. Schilling ended up pitching 3261 regular season innings, so it's not like he had a shortened or partial career total. Here are some comparisons of career totals from some other contemporaries . . .Schilling 8.3 H/9, 2.0 BB/9, 8.6 K/9, 1.137 WHIP, 3.46 ERA, 128 ERA+Smoltz 8.0 H/9, 2.6 BB/9, 8.0 K/9, 1.176 WHIP, 3.33 ERA, 125 ERA+Brown 8.5 H/9, 2.5 BB/9, 6.6 K/9, 1.222 WHP, 3.28 ERA, 127 ERA+Mussina 8.7 H/9, 2.0 BB/9, 7.1 K/9, 1.192 WHIP, 3.68 ERA, 123 ERA+Maddux 8.5 H/9, 1.8 BB/9, 6.1 K/9, 1.143 WHIP, 3.16 ERA, 132 ERA+Cone 7.8 H/9, 3.5 BB/9, 8.3 K/9, 1.256 WHIP, 3.46 ERA, 121 ERA+Saberhagen 8.6 H/9, 1.7 BB/9, 6.0 K/9, 1.141 WHIP, 3.34 ERA, 126 ERA+Glavine 8.8 H/9, 3.1 BB/9, 5.3 K/9, 1.314 WHIP, 3.54 ERA, 118 ERA+I think the whole steroid era thing will only serve to further muddy the waters. Most people would think that Clemens had a stronger career than Schilling and would be more deserving of a HOF spot than Schilling. But given the mess Clemens has gotten himself into, would voters side more with Schilling than Clemens?

Re: the steroid era. Nobody can be 100% sure Schilling never juiced either. I'm speaking from personal experience here. If you take steroids then sit on the couch eating potato chips, you'll still be fat. You need to work out just as hard if not harder while "on" cycle. Steroids for a guy like Schill would increase his functional strength for his craft. Throw harder, recover faster from a previous start, increase endurance, etc. He could accomplish these things even without eating a clean diet and being in the gym four hours a day as a bodybuilder would.DID he juice? I'd say no. But nobody should bet their life on it.

Didn't that 93 Phils team have a gaggle of known or suspected steroid users?....I thought Inky, Dutch, Danny Jackson, Hollins, Dykstra and Duncan were all suspected or admitted?.....Ortiz and Man Ram on that Sox team as well.

Yep. Never say never is all I'm saying.He always had a belly, but that doesn't exclude him from suspicion. Power-lifters juice and they have bellies too.

 

[Thunderlips]

ok looking at his statistics and he definitely is not a HOFer. Had one good 4 yr stretch with ARI. I guess all the media bias swayed me recently. Mussina > Schilling IMO. Ignore my previous posts lol

Schilling is Don Mattingly with 3 World Series championships.

Not exactly apples to apples. Mattingtly ranks 275th in career at bats. Schilling ranks 95th in innings pitched.I think what of what troubles some folks about Schilling is that he had a number of seasons where he did not pitch full seasons, which poses problems in evaluating him. On a per game basis, those years were still excellent. On a per year basis, it makes his yearly totals suffer some.Clearly, Schilling is not in the top tier with Clemens, Johnson, or Martinez from his generation. But his ERA+ score is the same as Tom Seaver and Bob Gibson. Schilling ended up pitching 3261 regular season innings, so it's not like he had a shortened or partial career total. Here are some comparisons of career totals from some other contemporaries . . .Schilling 8.3 H/9, 2.0 BB/9, 8.6 K/9, 1.137 WHIP, 3.46 ERA, 128 ERA+Smoltz 8.0 H/9, 2.6 BB/9, 8.0 K/9, 1.176 WHIP, 3.33 ERA, 125 ERA+Brown 8.5 H/9, 2.5 BB/9, 6.6 K/9, 1.222 WHP, 3.28 ERA, 127 ERA+Mussina 8.7 H/9, 2.0 BB/9, 7.1 K/9, 1.192 WHIP, 3.68 ERA, 123 ERA+Maddux 8.5 H/9, 1.8 BB/9, 6.1 K/9, 1.143 WHIP, 3.16 ERA, 132 ERA+Cone 7.8 H/9, 3.5 BB/9, 8.3 K/9, 1.256 WHIP, 3.46 ERA, 121 ERA+Saberhagen 8.6 H/9, 1.7 BB/9, 6.0 K/9, 1.141 WHIP, 3.34 ERA, 126 ERA+Glavine 8.8 H/9, 3.1 BB/9, 5.3 K/9, 1.314 WHIP, 3.54 ERA, 118 ERA+I think the whole steroid era thing will only serve to further muddy the waters. Most people would think that Clemens had a stronger career than Schilling and would be more deserving of a HOF spot than Schilling. But given the mess Clemens has gotten himself into, would voters side more with Schilling than Clemens?

I don't know if comparing him to those guys helps his case. Maddux and Glavine reached the magic 300 and Smoltz might have hit it if not for 4 years as a closer. The rest of those guys aren't in. My comparing to Mattingly is based not on career numbers....but more years as a top player in the game. I think a player gets in on compiling career stats or a certain number of years as one of the dominant players. I don't think Schill has the compiling stats (and before anyone says it...even though they might not like wins....people still use wins) nor do I think he had enough dominant years.

 

[David Yudkin]

In the past 50 years, there have been 34 starting pitchers (or mostly starting pitchers) enshrined in the HOF. As already discussed in this thread, Schilling doesn't really stack up in career wins. But adding him into the mix with those 34 pitchers, he ranks . . .

26th in innings pitched

21st in H/9

4th in BB/9

5th in WHIP

3rd in K/9

1st in K/BB

28th in unadjusted ERA

T4th in ERA+

I think that stacks up pretty well against current HOFers. If people want to say his low win totals will be held against him, so be it. And others may argue ERA+ is not a good enough indicator. Again, so be it . . .

 

[DropKick]

Cliff Eastham, Bleacher Report:

I can see all of you young guns snarling and getting ready to rebut me with a volley of SABRmetrics. Save it, I am old school and I don’t subscribe to much of that. If I wanted to learn more math I would have stayed in school longer.

Love that. Don't spout statistics at me, except for these statistics that I'm going to spend the rest of the article quoting. Never mind they don't place the performance of the pitchers in context and rely heavily on the second worst stat after saves. This is all the math I know dangnabit and this is all the math I need!

Not to mention Schilling's career took place entirely in the steriod era.

So should a Mussina or Pettite get in because of that?

Not because of the steroid factor but I think Mussina gets in... Not so sure about Schilling or Pettite.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Still no

 

[Joe Summer]

Pitching has become so diluted that the HOF will have to start lowering their standards or they won't be enshrining any pitchers. 200 wins is the new 300 wins.

David Wells, Jack Morris, and even Jamie Moyer and Tim Wakefield will be looking like HOFers in a few years.

 

[David Yudkin]

Pitching has become so diluted that the HOF will have to start lowering their standards or they won't be enshrining any pitchers. 200 wins is the new 300 wins.David Wells, Jack Morris, and even Jamie Moyer and Tim Wakefield will be looking like HOFers in a few years.

The only reason why I disagree is that wins as an evaluation tool is getting phased out as a category and other metrics have become better barometers. Guys like Moyer and Wakefield have very weak peripheral numbers to really merit induction.