Ghost Rider
Footballguy
He'll have a much greater chance now. And despite his alleged association with PEDs in the past, the media seems to completely ignore that, preferring to fall all over themselves loving the guy. That will be a factor.
This is what amazes he. It's not even alleged is it? He admitted he used in 2003, yet somehow he's the only one of McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Cruz, A-Rod Sosa, etc.. who is not only not vilified, but celebrated.He'll have a much greater chance now. And despite his alleged association with PEDs in the past, the media seems to completely ignore that, preferring to fall all over themselves loving the guy. That will be a factor.
still no.
He's received 42%, 56% and 60% of the votes in his three years of eligibility. I think chances are pretty good that Bagwell will eventually get in, although the ballot will be pretty crowded the next few years.Bagwell has gotta make it in, no?
There is just way too much bias in this thread. Ortiz is now a 3 time W.S. winner and a key part of each of those teams. He is considered among the best, if not the best, DHs. The MLB HOF puts much emphasis on cumulative numbers but with big performances on a big stage, clutch hits, MVPs, etc. I have little doubt he is HOF.I think they should do drug tests on all baseball playoff teams players before they start playing in the playoffs.
Career OPS is near identicalIf they won't put in Edgar, he shouldn't get in. Edgar was MUCH better than Papi. Playoff performances should be bonus points, not the main case for a candidacy.
Ortiz career .930 OPS, 139 OPS+Career OPS is near identicalIf they won't put in Edgar, he shouldn't get in. Edgar was MUCH better than Papi. Playoff performances should be bonus points, not the main case for a candidacy.
WPA comparable during full-time years
If Ortiz plays 3-4 years and finishes playing at 41 like Edgar did he will most likely retire with a lower OPS than he has now. Not that it's the best measure of a player's contributions or HOF barometer, but WAR is a 68-44 slaughter for Edgar with comparable career PAs.Ortiz career .930 OPS, 139 OPS+
Edgar career .933 OPS, 147 OPS+
Clearly Ortiz has a better post season resume and 3 more rings. Not sure that makes him a HOF lock by any stretch.
IMO Ortiz is too far back in the 1B/DH line among his contemporaries to get in. His postseason heroics for a big-market team will help him jump ahead in that line and he's not done playing yet, but compared to a guy like Bagwell who has been on three ballots and still trying, IMO Ortiz is going to have a longer wait than a lot of folks think.Yes.
Miguel Cabrera being a terrible defender is more of a liability than Ortiz being a non-defender.
I was never that good at math. Ortiz has 8249 career regular season plate appearances. Martinez had 8674. I'm guessing the difference is not 2000.Edgar also has over 2000 more PAs than Papi. If Ortiz plays 3-4 more years and approaches Edgar's PA total, he will most likely retire with a lower OPS than he has now.Not that it's the best measure of a player's contributions or HOF barometer, but WAR is a 68-44 slaughter for Edgar.Ortiz career .930 OPS, 139 OPS+Edgar career .933 OPS, 147 OPS+Career OPS is near identicalIf they won't put in Edgar, he shouldn't get in. Edgar was MUCH better than Papi. Playoff performances should be bonus points, not the main case for a candidacy.
WPA comparable during full-time years
Clearly Ortiz has a better post season resume and 3 more rings. Not sure that makes him a HOF lock by any stretch.
was comparing Ortiz's Boston PA total to Edgsr's full career. Oops. Ortiz's six seasons with the Twins aren't a factor in his HOF candidacy, and a lot of Bosox fans probably don't know Ortiz ever played for another team, but a mistake is a mistake. Thanks for pointing it out, and apologies to anyone misled by my error.Anarchy99 said:I was never that good at math. Ortiz has 8249 career regular season plate appearances. Martinez had 8674. I'm guessing the difference is not 2000.
Jack Morris has a lot of rings.Anarchy99 said:Ortiz career .930 OPS, 139 OPS+[icon] said:Career OPS is near identicalIf they won't put in Edgar, he shouldn't get in. Edgar was MUCH better than Papi. Playoff performances should be bonus points, not the main case for a candidacy.
WPA comparable during full-time years
Edgar career .933 OPS, 147 OPS+
Clearly Ortiz has a better post season resume and 3 more rings. Not sure that makes him a HOF lock by any stretch.
But he's not a terrible defender.Good Posting Judge said:Yes.
Miguel Cabrera being a terrible defender is more of a liability than Ortiz being a non-defender.
And if Cabrera was only a DH he would somehow be more HOF worthy?But he's not a terrible defender.Good Posting Judge said:Yes.
Miguel Cabrera being a terrible defender is more of a liability than Ortiz being a non-defender.
just really bad maybe?But he's not a terrible defender."Good said:Yes.
Miguel Cabrera being a terrible defender is more of a liability than Ortiz being a non-defender.
Except that OBP and SLG neither have the same denominator, nor should they be equally weighted. Edgar has about an Ortiz season of extra ABs with .013 higher wOBA and 9 wRC+ That's very significant. Oh, and Edgar did actually contribute much more on defense than Papi.Anarchy99 said:Ortiz career .930 OPS, 139 OPS+[icon] said:Career OPS is near identicalIf they won't put in Edgar, he shouldn't get in. Edgar was MUCH better than Papi. Playoff performances should be bonus points, not the main case for a candidacy.
WPA comparable during full-time years
Edgar career .933 OPS, 147 OPS+
Clearly Ortiz has a better post season resume and 3 more rings. Not sure that makes him a HOF lock by any stretch.
Not terrible compared to the people who post in this thread?But he's not a terrible defender.Good Posting Judge said:Yes.
Miguel Cabrera being a terrible defender is more of a liability than Ortiz being a non-defender.
"Who are three people that have never been in my kitchen?"Not terrible compared to the people who post in this thread?But he's not a terrible defender.Good Posting Judge said:Yes.
Miguel Cabrera being a terrible defender is more of a liability than Ortiz being a non-defender.
Thomas played about 40% of his games at 1B. Ortiz is more like 12%.By the time Ortiz is on the ballot, Frank Thomas will be in the HOF, paving the way for other 1Bs who really were DHs. Bagwell's lack of glove prowess doesn't seem to be a factor in his candidacy. Keith Hernandez won 11 straight Gold Gloves at 1B and didn't come close to the HOF.
Any existing PED stigma attached to Ortiz might be worn off in the 6-10 years between now and his first appearance on the ballot.
Curious if advanced stats will creep into the minds of HOF voters over the next few years. His career WAR is significantly lower than the WAR of contemporaries like Chase Utley, Lance Berkman, and Torii Hunter, so those postseason HRs better be worth a lot.
Not seeing why that gap matters. How many times did White Sox fans feel relieved about a hot shot down the first-base line or a throw in the dirt because Big Hurt was the glove over at 1B? Thomas's HOF chances would be the same whether he played 12% or 40% of his games at 1B.Thomas played about 40% of his games at 1B. Ortiz is more like 12%.By the time Ortiz is on the ballot, Frank Thomas will be in the HOF, paving the way for other 1Bs who really were DHs. Bagwell's lack of glove prowess doesn't seem to be a factor in his candidacy. Keith Hernandez won 11 straight Gold Gloves at 1B and didn't come close to the HOF.
Any existing PED stigma attached to Ortiz might be worn off in the 6-10 years between now and his first appearance on the ballot.
Curious if advanced stats will creep into the minds of HOF voters over the next few years. His career WAR is significantly lower than the WAR of contemporaries like Chase Utley, Lance Berkman, and Torii Hunter, so those postseason HRs better be worth a lot.
How about MVPs?Not seeing why that gap matters. How many times did White Sox fans feel relieved about a hot shot down the first-base line or a throw in the dirt because Big Hurt was the glove over at 1B? Thomas's HOF chances would be the same whether he played 12% or 40% of his games at 1B.Thomas played about 40% of his games at 1B. Ortiz is more like 12%.By the time Ortiz is on the ballot, Frank Thomas will be in the HOF, paving the way for other 1Bs who really were DHs. Bagwell's lack of glove prowess doesn't seem to be a factor in his candidacy. Keith Hernandez won 11 straight Gold Gloves at 1B and didn't come close to the HOF.
Any existing PED stigma attached to Ortiz might be worn off in the 6-10 years between now and his first appearance on the ballot.
Curious if advanced stats will creep into the minds of HOF voters over the next few years. His career WAR is significantly lower than the WAR of contemporaries like Chase Utley, Lance Berkman, and Torii Hunter, so those postseason HRs better be worth a lot.
There's a lot of 1-time MVPs who won't ever make 50% of the HOF ballots, and a lot of guys in the HOF who never won one. I doubt two-time MVP Juan Gonzalez will get in. It seems in the minds of HOF voters, how good a player was over his best 10-12 seasons matters more than how great his best 1-2 seasons were. Given how many players in their late 30s are in the gray ink and are factors in pennant races year in and year out, IMO it's fair to consider longevity.Wrigley said:How about MVPs?
I was speaking of Thomas.There's a lot of 1-time MVPs who won't ever make 50% of the HOF ballots, and a lot of guys in the HOF who never won one. I doubt two-time MVP Juan Gonzalez will get in.It seems in the minds of HOF voters, how good a player was over his best 10-12 seasons matters more than how great his best 1-2 seasons were. Given how many players in their late 30s are in the gray ink and are factors in pennant races year in and year out, IMO it's fair to consider longevity.Wrigley said:How about MVPs?
Earlier in the thread I said Thomas would be in the HOF by the time Ortiz was on the ballot. Not sure how that could be interpreted as disagreeing with the idea that Thomas is a lock.I was speaking of Thomas.During 90-99 he finished in the top 10 in batting average six times, on-base percentage seven times, slugging percentage seven times, OPS seven times, runs scored six times, hits four times, doubles two times, home runs six times, runs batted in seven times, and walks eight times.There's a lot of 1-time MVPs who won't ever make 50% of the HOF ballots, and a lot of guys in the HOF who never won one. I doubt two-time MVP Juan Gonzalez will get in.It seems in the minds of HOF voters, how good a player was over his best 10-12 seasons matters more than how great his best 1-2 seasons were. Given how many players in their late 30s are in the gray ink and are factors in pennant races year in and year out, IMO it's fair to consider longevity.Wrigley said:How about MVPs?
Thomas is a lock
Again, how can you compare Bonds' association with PEDs to Ortiz? If you have a little smoke with Ortiz you have a raging forest fire with Bonds.Talking about Miguel Cabrera's shortcomings as a fielder are pretty irrelevant to this discussion, because he's a transcendent, once-in-a-lifetime hitter. Ortiz has had a lot of very good to excellent seasons, but let's not pretend they're in the same stratosphere offensively.
And like Shady says, the DH part won't keep him out. It's the steroid allegations. The all-time home run king isn't sniffing the HOF anytime soon, so I can't imagine David Ortiz will get in without a ticket.
Agreed. I definitely don't think he's a lock or even great odds... agreed...was just addressing the assertion that edgar was "MUCH better than Papi"Ortiz career .930 OPS, 139 OPS+Career OPS is near identicalIf they won't put in Edgar, he shouldn't get in. Edgar was MUCH better than Papi. Playoff performances should be bonus points, not the main case for a candidacy.
WPA comparable during full-time years
Edgar career .933 OPS, 147 OPS+
Clearly Ortiz has a better post season resume and 3 more rings. Not sure that makes him a HOF lock by any stretch.
Right, but it doesn't appear voters are going to care if someone only took "a little bit" of steroids. A cheater is a cheater is a cheater, is how they've been looking at it. In fact, they've even been looking at it as, even if there's a possibility that you're a cheater then you're a cheater. A guy with ANY allegations is already on the outside looking in. My point wasn't to compare the two. My point is, we have a guy who was a first-ballot HOFer BEFORE any steroid allegations. And even HE can't get in based on that. With Ortiz's potentially positive test result coming in 2003 which is the first year he was a breakout offensive talent, there's no way he can get a pass for that.Again, how can you compare Bonds' association with PEDs to Ortiz? If you have a little smoke with Ortiz you have a raging forest fire with Bonds.Talking about Miguel Cabrera's shortcomings as a fielder are pretty irrelevant to this discussion, because he's a transcendent, once-in-a-lifetime hitter. Ortiz has had a lot of very good to excellent seasons, but let's not pretend they're in the same stratosphere offensively.
And like Shady says, the DH part won't keep him out. It's the steroid allegations. The all-time home run king isn't sniffing the HOF anytime soon, so I can't imagine David Ortiz will get in without a ticket.
Why are you using Mariano Rivera as an example? There is plenty of precedent set with relievers in the hall of fame. Gossage, Sutter, Eckersely, Fingers are already in. Did any of these guys do something otherworldly?And again, I'm not saying a DH can't or won't or shouldn't get in. I'm saying, if they DO get in it needs to be because they put up otherworldly offensive stats. Not because they were the best of the guys who play half the time. Use Mariano Rivera as an example. He's the best relief pitcher of all-time, but he's not getting into the HOF because of that. He's getting in because he lapped the field at his position. IMO, relievers need to do that to get consideration or else you water down the honor with a bunch of failed starters.
ortiz has been one of the most feared hitters in baseball for a decade PLUS has all the postseason accolades. I dont care what position he (doesnt) play, IMO if it wasnt for the roids hed be a lock.And again, I'm not saying a DH can't or won't or shouldn't get in. I'm saying, if they DO get in it needs to be because they put up otherworldly offensive stats. Not because they were the best of the guys who play half the time. Use Mariano Rivera as an example. He's the best relief pitcher of all-time, but he's not getting into the HOF because of that. He's getting in because he lapped the field at his position. IMO, relievers need to do that to get consideration or else you water down the honor with a bunch of failed starters.