I can't stand the Patriots, but if they can sign Lloyd (as the rumors suggest they will), and use most (if not all) of their draft picks on D (and they pan out), they still have a few years where they will be contenders. Brady at QB, with his O-line protecting him, throwing to Lloyd, Welker, Gronkowski and Hernandez (with the RBBC they have been using effectively) AND an improved D? That gives them a window of probably 3 years to win another SB.It isn't OVER, not yet.
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Is it OVER for the Patriots? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Raider Nation
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Jason Wood
Zoo York
Objectively the Giants and Steelers are arguably better "dynasty" candidates right now than New England. As an Eagles fan, I've been dealing with a debate in the Philly 2012 thread about how Reid and the Eagles haven't really done much over the last seven seasons, after being so strong in his first five. The Patriots are somewhat in the same boat (on a much more significant scale, don't misconstrue me as saying they're analogous), as the Pats won three SBs and were cresting, and have now lost two and been bounced from the playoffs as favorites a few other times. Steelers and Giants meanwhile have younger QBs, a good nucleus of talent, and more recent SB success.
Not sure I agree with you about the Steelers. Rooney seems to be taking a more "active" role in running the team, and this doesn't seem to work much (see Jones, Jerry & Snyder, Dan). The refusal to offer Arians a contract and then try to say he "retired" is the latest example. Rooney seems to want to have the Steelers revert to the Steelers of the '70s with a power running attack and the Steel Curtain D. The problem is that the NFL isn't a running league anymore, and the Steelers D is getting old, fast. Plus, their O-line is not very good, and they are going to be learning a new offense (unless they promote from within, but that makes the decision to let Arians go even more questionable).
The Doctor
Footballguy
and the skins beat the giants both times this year
inzanitee
Footballguy
How can they be "just another team" but also remain "elite?" That seems pretty contradictory.
AmosMoses
Footballguy
They are just another elite team. Hello???
The_Man
Footballguy
The Pats really need a legit deep threat. Once teams realized they could flood the underneath to really challenge Welker and the TEs, it hurt them a lot. Branch and Ochocinco aren't getting it done.
Also, their secondary is a joke and their LBs are mediocre. So they really need to hit on some draft picks there. The Pats' on-field success has shielded Belichick from a lot of heat for his very mediocre draft performance. I know lots of people like to look at Edelman playing DB and say "Wow, what a genius BB is" but the reality is that their need to put a WR in at DB is a stunning indictment of the Pats' inability to draft and develop players in the secondary.
I really can't think of another fanbase that wouldn't be going apoplectic if their roster was so bad that they were playing a WR at nickelback.
Also, their secondary is a joke and their LBs are mediocre. So they really need to hit on some draft picks there. The Pats' on-field success has shielded Belichick from a lot of heat for his very mediocre draft performance. I know lots of people like to look at Edelman playing DB and say "Wow, what a genius BB is" but the reality is that their need to put a WR in at DB is a stunning indictment of the Pats' inability to draft and develop players in the secondary.
I really can't think of another fanbase that wouldn't be going apoplectic if their roster was so bad that they were playing a WR at nickelback.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
You have to be trying to be this wrong. Rooney NEVER said that.
Wes Welker drops a ball he never drops or this is another ring on Brady's finger. No reason to think they can't do it again. That being said this wasn't a very good SB team (neither were the Giants) compared to the past. Last years Packers run either team out of the building. Patriots either have to revitalize that defense or hope for another weak AFC field and a favorable SB matchup.
Good post. I think it goes a step further. Similar to my other post - IMO, BB tries to make himself look like a genius by playing Edelman in spots where he can get away with it. If Edelman is the best next option at DB, why is he not the next best option in the SB vs the Giants? Because he would look like an idiot if he played him against the Giants - so then he never was the next best option, BB just wanted to look like a genius.Similar for Woodhead - receiving aside - he can manage some carries against poor defenses but not against a real defense - like NYG.
Back to the question at hand - it's not over for the Pats until another team rises up to dominate the AFC. Maybe the Texans.
saintfool
Dead sexy
they'll make the playoffs but they shouldn't be counted on for much more than that.
saintfool
Dead sexy
same could be said for the saints.
Why is it Welker's fault - that is a pretty tough catch and he may have lost it upon impact with the ground anyway. Why is nobody talking about a poor throw to a wide open received. Ironically, ESPN had a piece Saturday morning discussing Brady's lack of accuracy on the deep ball.
jurb26
Footballguy
Either way nitpicking games like this is always a silly thing to do. What about the blatant PI NE got away with in the 2nd half against Manningham? Or what if Manningham simply adjusted his route on the sideline on his 1st deep pass that extended OOBs? No one play wins or looses these games if you are looking at the whole context. Sure, if Welker makes that catch or if Brady makes that throw (however you choose to view it) then NE would have been in a better position to win and perhaps would have won. Guess what, had NYG has a couple of things go there way then the game may not have ever been that close in the 1st place though.
parrot
Footballguy
Yeah, that's clearly what it was. It couldn't have anything to do with them having completely different defensive game plans and focuses - Ray Rice vs. Eli and the Giants WR corp - in the two games.
Golden Mike Tomczak
Footballguy
Since they were forced to stop cheating (and subsequently burned the evidence) they haven't won a title. Given, still a strong team, but the cheating is what put them over the hump.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
You don't honestly believe that, right? They've gone to two Super Bowls, went undefeated in a regular season, and secured another 1 seed this year. A few plays go the other way, and they win either of those games.
Golden Mike Tomczak
Footballguy
A little bit of studying Giants practice tapes and they would have won easily.
Boston
Footballguy
That and Ty Law, Rodney Harrison, Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel and Tedy Bruschi in their primes...
So you are claiming Edelman is the run stopper? RIIIGHHHTTTT'parrot said:Yeah, that's clearly what it was. It couldn't have anything to do with them having completely different defensive game plans and focuses - Ray Rice vs. Eli and the Giants WR corp - in the two games.'The Dude said:
Do I? First, I never said Rooney SAID anything. I said he seems to want the Steelers to run more, which is based on reports out of Pittsburgh media.Two years ago, Rooney said he wanted the Steelers to run the ball more.'Tom Servo said:
Rooney wants to run the ball more
After Arians wasn't offered a contract, this was reported:
Mortenson suggests Rooney wants to return to it's "blue-collar" identify of the past
So, I'm not making things up, just discussing Jason's post that suggests the Steelers are closer to a dynasty than the Patriots. I don't agree, because I think returning to a run-heavy offense with an aging defense won't be successful.
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Thunderlips
Footballguy
Hell, same could be said for the Ravens.'saintfool said:
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Isn't that true for just about every team in the NFL?'Jason Wood said:
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
Even IF Welker catches that ball they are at the 20. With Giants defense playing as well as they were it was no sure touchdown there. There is a very decent chance the way Brady was playing that they get a field goal and it plays out the same way. Eli is clutch and takes them down for the win. TOM BRADY had chances to win this game, and TOM BRADY did not make it happen. People need to stop letting him off the hook because he is TOM BRADY. If that was Alex Smith or Flacco that played the EXACT same game, people would say that QB is a position to address in the draft. He just didn't do enough to win. And quit with this while " he doesn't have the weapons ". BB thinks that in his system that they dont need a certain type of wrs. They just dont fit. Ocho is no scrub, he just doesnt fit into what they are going for. BB tries to be cute with the talent he brings in and it bit him in the ###. Brady's wrs led the league in yards after catch!! Thats the offense they run and he has the talent that they wanted. Welker is an All-Pro, Branch is old but solid same with ocho and hernandez is a beast. Manning had his top two TEs go down and NE take away cruz, so he did what a good QB does and took advantage of the matchups they gave him. Bottom line, talent argument or not, Eli played WAYYY better than Brady.'mbuehner said:
Louisville Slugger
Footballguy
I think most people are missing the point on the Patriots. They have essentially re-built the entire team from 2007 and in the process of re-building they went 14-2 last year and got to the Superbowl this season and were a dropped Wes Welker catch away from winning the Superbowl
The "dynasty" era ended in 07. This is nearly a totally different team. Just look at the Patriots roster from 2007. There is only one starter from that era on defense. Belichick has re-built this team on the fly.
The Patriots core is quite young. Granted the defense is an impact player or two away, but they have a lot of young talent. Guys like Mayo,Chung, Ninkovich and Spikes will be coming into their prime over the next couple of years. Their defense matured quite nicely towards the end of the season... On offense Gronkowski and Hernandez are only second year players in one of the most potent offenses in the NFL. Gronk is on pace to be one of the games greats. If the Pat's add a legit deep threat (rumor has Brandon Lloyd re-joing Josh Mcdaniels IN NE) the Patriots will be near impossible to stop.
To add insult to injury the Patriots are stacked in the draft going forward with multiple picks in the first and second round this year. Tom Brady is 34 years old and is still playing at an elite level. He has at least three more prime years left.
Bottom line is the Patriots are a team on the rise and are nearly an entirely new team from the one that lost the 2007 Superbowl
The "dynasty" era ended in 07. This is nearly a totally different team. Just look at the Patriots roster from 2007. There is only one starter from that era on defense. Belichick has re-built this team on the fly.
The Patriots core is quite young. Granted the defense is an impact player or two away, but they have a lot of young talent. Guys like Mayo,Chung, Ninkovich and Spikes will be coming into their prime over the next couple of years. Their defense matured quite nicely towards the end of the season... On offense Gronkowski and Hernandez are only second year players in one of the most potent offenses in the NFL. Gronk is on pace to be one of the games greats. If the Pat's add a legit deep threat (rumor has Brandon Lloyd re-joing Josh Mcdaniels IN NE) the Patriots will be near impossible to stop.
To add insult to injury the Patriots are stacked in the draft going forward with multiple picks in the first and second round this year. Tom Brady is 34 years old and is still playing at an elite level. He has at least three more prime years left.
Bottom line is the Patriots are a team on the rise and are nearly an entirely new team from the one that lost the 2007 Superbowl
bostonfred
Footballguy
The 2006 patriots came minutes away from going to a superbowl they had no business going to, with reche caldwell as their leading receiver. The 2009 patriots had no business earning the number one seed in the afc, and got knocked out of the playoffs early. Tom brady won an mvp for carrying the 2010 patriots to the playoffs again, and he just carried a team with a bad defense and a cobbled together running game to a superbowl. I think when this era is over, and the fans that hate the patriots for bouncing their favorite teams out of the playoffs have had time to come to grips with things, there will be no argument against brady as the greatest of all time. In fewer than fifty seasons of the superbowl era, the patriots have gone to five of them, had four of the top fifty seasons in nfl history, and set countless individual and team records for wins and statistics. Id love to have cheered them on to another championship yesterday, but there's no shame in that superbowl loss for this fan. Its been an incredible run.
inzanitee
Footballguy
Why do people keep saying they were "a dropped Wes Welker pass from winning the Super Bowl?" Welker wouldn't have scored on that play. They *may* have won if he'd caught that pass, or maybe not.
But no, it's not even close to "over" for the Pats. They're still a great team.
But no, it's not even close to "over" for the Pats. They're still a great team.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
First, Arians wasn't retained because the offense couldn't put the ball in the bloody end zone.It is NEVER defined, Mortensen IMPLIES that's what's going to happen and the blogger SPECULATES what that might mean.
Perhaps you ought to READ what is in the links you post.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Nobody on the giants was injured.'BusterTBronco said:
Its over for the patriots.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
'Golden Mike Tomczak said:
sho nuff
Footballguy
Agreed...so much bashing of Branch and Welker...without really seeing that both of those passes were not great.Would have taken a tough catch for Welker (yes, he makes those often)...and the pass to Branch was off and behind him with a defender flying in front of him.'The Dude said:
On the flip side of that, what does over mean? Does it mean they won't win their division? Unlikely.Does it mean they won't be in the playoffs next year? Even less likely.Does it mean they won't be in the Super Bowl next year? Quite possible.If the third question is what is meant by over, then that is certainly possible. If it is either of the first two (which tells me that they are still contenders), then probably not.'bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
First, In the 2010 article, Rooney is quoted as saying "We have to get back to being able to run the football when we need to run the football, and being able to run more consistently than we have in the past season." If you don't want to interpret that as him wanting to run the ball more, okay.Second, Arians wasn't "not retained" because the offense couldn't put the ball in the bloody end zone, he was let go because the offense wasn't what Rooney wanted. That is the consensus amongst national media and among local media in Pittsburgh.
Third, I NEVER said Rooney said "I'm firing Arians because I want to run more," but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I'm going to call it a duck.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
You people need a different drum to beat. This is so 5 years ago and such a non issue.'Golden Mike Tomczak said:
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I've watched with some concern as the Pats keep stockpiling 2nd and 3rd round picks and I've been wondering what the big plan is. Why are they deferring these picks when they have such glaring needs on defense? (Simmons quote today: "....the Pats somehow turning two no. 1 picks in the 2011 draft into four guys who didn't have any significance whatsover last night....") Are they gambling that, as long as they've got Brady, they have a shot every year regardless of the supporting cast and they're saving the picks for when they don't have this Tom Brady around any more to carry them?
Sneaky old Bill Belichick has me confused and that makes me uneasy.
Sneaky old Bill Belichick has me confused and that makes me uneasy.
Riversco
Footballguy
You think maybe he's making sure he's got tons of picks, so that when the time comes to get another franchise QB, he can use them to trade up? They've got two 1sts and two 2nds again this draft. Like if Brady was done after this year, he could trade some/all to get RG3?
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Richard Seymour says "Hi."'Boston said:
David Yudkin
Footballguy
If Welker makes that catch, by the time the ball is spotted and they run the play clock down, NE would have snapped the ball inside of the 3 minute mark. Assuming they ran the ball, something strung out to the outside and slow in developing, it's conceivable the Pats could have ran the clock all the way down to the 2 minute warning. Pats run again, Giants call time out at say 1:55. Pats run the ball again, getting the game clock down to around a minute and then kick a FG. Take a few seconds off for the kick and a deep squib kick and Eli and the Giants get the ball back with 45 seconds to go down 5 points with 75-80 yards or so to go to win with no timeouts.
The Jerk
Footballguy
No doubt that any team that goes 27-5 in the regular season and nearly wins a Super Bowl must be considered a legitimate title threat for the immediate future. The Pats are favorites at 5-1 to win SB XLVII (GB 11-2, PIT 6-1, PHI 6-1). In fact, the real question is how the Eagles can be anywhere near those other teams as tied for third favorite next year.
Still, when you break down the 2011 Patriots season, it is more than fair to point out that the only team they defeated that finished with a winning record was Baltimore, and that game was as much about Baltimore losing as New England winning.
Another truth is that in the past four seasons, the only playoff wins the Patriots have are over a Denver team that smoked and mirrored its way to an 8-8 division title (and then beat a depleted Steelers team) and the aforementioned Ravens victory. Despite prolific regular season winning totals, the Patriots are not nearly the team they were from 2001-2004. Not an indictment, either, because the 2001-2004 run was the most dominant of the past 16 seasons by a long shot.
Yes, the Patriots have turned over large portions of their roster, but don't pretend they haven't lost a lot in the process:
2001-2004 postseasons: 9-0
2005-2008 postseasons: 5-3 (road losses at Den, at Indy, SB XLII NYG)
2009-2011 postseasons: 2-3 (home losses vs. Balt, vs. Jets, SB XLVI NYG)
For me, the Patriot mystique arguably peaked in the 2006 playoffs. It wasn't surprising that Denver beat NE in 2005 given how the Broncos under Shanahan had consistently been trouble for the Patriots, and Denver was 13-3 to NE's 10-6. When the Patriots took advantage of San Diego's implosion to reach the AFC championship, then ran up a 21-3 2nd quarter lead at Indy, I was resigned to another likely championship heading to the greater Boston area. Giving up the largest championship game lead in history was the first indication that the Patriots were no longer the same team. I know they rebounded to post their epic 18-0 2007 season and again it looked like 4 titles were inevitable until the Giants upset them, but really, that 2006 AFC championship was the first -- and with hindsight, the best -- title chance that slipped away.
Heading into next season, it can certainly be argued that the Patriots are as likely as any other team to make and win the Super Bowl. However, that pales considerably to where expectations were prior to where things were prior to the 2004-2008 seasons. Then, there were the Patriots and everybody else.
The greatest QB ever debates are all ridiculous to me. These players can't be isolated from their teammates, coaches, etc. Suffice it to say that Brady has been a brilliant QB over the past five years, but the Patriots were clearly better at winning championships when it wasn't all about the offense.
My biggest head-scratcher is why people hail the genius of stockpiling draft picks when the championship window is open NOW and the players being drafted with these stockpiled picks of past seasons are rarely contributing on the field. One additional defensive playmaker instead of a few high draft picks just might have secured another SB championship for the Patriots. I don't understand it.
Still, when you break down the 2011 Patriots season, it is more than fair to point out that the only team they defeated that finished with a winning record was Baltimore, and that game was as much about Baltimore losing as New England winning.
Another truth is that in the past four seasons, the only playoff wins the Patriots have are over a Denver team that smoked and mirrored its way to an 8-8 division title (and then beat a depleted Steelers team) and the aforementioned Ravens victory. Despite prolific regular season winning totals, the Patriots are not nearly the team they were from 2001-2004. Not an indictment, either, because the 2001-2004 run was the most dominant of the past 16 seasons by a long shot.
Yes, the Patriots have turned over large portions of their roster, but don't pretend they haven't lost a lot in the process:
2001-2004 postseasons: 9-0
2005-2008 postseasons: 5-3 (road losses at Den, at Indy, SB XLII NYG)
2009-2011 postseasons: 2-3 (home losses vs. Balt, vs. Jets, SB XLVI NYG)
For me, the Patriot mystique arguably peaked in the 2006 playoffs. It wasn't surprising that Denver beat NE in 2005 given how the Broncos under Shanahan had consistently been trouble for the Patriots, and Denver was 13-3 to NE's 10-6. When the Patriots took advantage of San Diego's implosion to reach the AFC championship, then ran up a 21-3 2nd quarter lead at Indy, I was resigned to another likely championship heading to the greater Boston area. Giving up the largest championship game lead in history was the first indication that the Patriots were no longer the same team. I know they rebounded to post their epic 18-0 2007 season and again it looked like 4 titles were inevitable until the Giants upset them, but really, that 2006 AFC championship was the first -- and with hindsight, the best -- title chance that slipped away.
Heading into next season, it can certainly be argued that the Patriots are as likely as any other team to make and win the Super Bowl. However, that pales considerably to where expectations were prior to where things were prior to the 2004-2008 seasons. Then, there were the Patriots and everybody else.
The greatest QB ever debates are all ridiculous to me. These players can't be isolated from their teammates, coaches, etc. Suffice it to say that Brady has been a brilliant QB over the past five years, but the Patriots were clearly better at winning championships when it wasn't all about the offense.
My biggest head-scratcher is why people hail the genius of stockpiling draft picks when the championship window is open NOW and the players being drafted with these stockpiled picks of past seasons are rarely contributing on the field. One additional defensive playmaker instead of a few high draft picks just might have secured another SB championship for the Patriots. I don't understand it.
Boston
Footballguy
Asante Samuel says hello as well...
The Jerk
Footballguy
There was 4:06 left when the play to Welker began (according to nfl.com gamecenter), and I know there was 3:53 left when the Pats punted, so this scenario is impossible. But still, two runs could have reached the two minute warning, followed by a third run and timeout at 1:55. Field goal and kickoff likely results in 1:50 if no return or 1:45 or less if the kickoff is returned. No timeouts, needing a TD. Your point still stands, but it wouldn't be 45 seconds left.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
From everything I have seen, even if the Pats had used all the picks they were assigned and/or acquired, they would have picked the same players they picked . . . just earlier. So they traded down and acquired more picks. Adding more picks has not been the problem. Drafting the wrong players has been the problem.I know people have been wanting to use their picks or trade up to get someone potentially who was a potential game changer, but even if they took someone other than the guys they ended up with, there would be a decent shot that they would have picked a dud. Many draft picks struggle or bust . . . it's not like the Pats are unique in that regard.With their talent evaluators leaving for KC and ATL, they have not drafted as well as they used to.
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
This is a really big stretch.I dont know how long you think a run takes, but if they start 1st down with 3 minutes, they are going to have to run a play before the 2 minute warning, one hundred percent. The play is not taking 15 seconds. 2nd down they run, take it down to 1:55, two minute warning. 3rd down they run the ball, and the giants take a time out with at least a 1:30.Say what you want because there is no way to tell, but I'll take Eli in that situation. He was as clutch as there is.
Boston
Footballguy
This drives me crazy as a Pats fan...while they get good value for these trades at some point you need to put a body next to the pick...especially with the Brady era starting to shorten...with the strategy of stockpiling picks you would think the Pats would be far more deeper than they are but they are missing more than they should for this strategy to really be paying off...instead of trading down I'd like to see them take a run at a few potential studs in the draft (or trade for a high quality veteran)...right now they have two #1's and two #2's...instead of turning that into a pick or two for 2013 I'd rather see them figure out a way to turn it into three #1's this year and inject some legit playmakers onto the defensve-side of the ball...this team is leaving championships on the field because of a play or two and that play is never going to be made be a future pick...
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