Is Joe Flacco one of the best third-year quarterbacks in history of fo (1 Viewer)

[aiverson]

I was blown away when I heard Jim Harbaugh, Ravens HC, state of Joe Flacco:

“Statistically, he’s one of the best third-year quarterbacks in history of football,” Harbaugh said. “I don’t think we should ever lose sight of the fact that this guy is as good a third-year quarterback as has played in the history of this game so far. And I believe in him. He’s my quarterback, he’s our quarterback, he’s going to be our quarterback, and we’re going to win championships with this guy.”

Now Derrick Mason is saying that teams are scared of Flacco because of how good he is.

Joe Flacco has the height and build that make him look like a prototypical QB. And this season it was politically correct to think Joe Flacco is a solid, dependable and possibly a great QB.

I disagree wholeheartedly and it’s my prerogative to feel that way until Flacco proves me wrong. He has a big arm, he has a big body, he throws a good deep ball. But he chokes in big games, he is not a leader that proves it on the field and his passing under pressure is miserable. But I’m not the only one who sees his limitations:

Otherwise, though they would never say different, why would Flacco’s GM/Owner/Coach make such unprecedented moves before the 2010 season? As we all know, the Ravens build through the draft, they groom their own. But they realized the severe limitations of their QB, so they knew they had to help him. So this season, they added Anquan Boldin, TJ Houshmandzadeh and Dontae' Stallworth. Despite already having a great former Pro-Bowl possession receiver in Mason (great hands and routes) a former Pro-Bowl TE in Heap plus Pro-Bowler Ray Rice out of the backfield.

If they had a QB they could trust to win big games, they wouldn't have needed to add all these weapons. Their run game was huge in 2009 so they certainly didn't need to add WRs to help the run game. They had Mason already, another former Pro Bowler, and could have added one other WR if they saw the opportunity. But they didn't. They added three. This was a team that, in 2010, brought in 2 Pro-Bowl receivers to add to the 1 Pro-Bowler they already had. Does this sound like a team that trusts they have an all-star QB? No. This team, when going 3 wide, felt they needed to have 3 Pro-Bowl WRs starting together at the same time.

Forget about the Miami Heat or the NY Knicks stacking talent, that’s what the Ravens tried to do with their WR position in 2010.

Did Belichick, when Brady was his young QB, go out in FA and bring in a ton of Pro Bowl WRs? No, Brady won 3 SBs w/ Troy Brown, David Patten and Deion Branch.

When Big Ben was a young QB w/ the Steelers, did Cowher go out in FA and buy a bunch of Pro Bowl WRs? No, Ben won Super Bowls w/ Hines Ward and Randle El, and then another w/ an older Hines Ward and a young, homegrown Santonio Holmes. None of these guys were FAs, they were drafted by the Steelers.

In fact, let’s look at all the younger QBs of the last few years:

Matt Ryan, Carson Palmer, Jay Cutler, Eli Manning, Alex Smith, Philip Rivers

When these guys were budding in the league, struggling at times, did any of the teams they played on, even the ones who didn’t have great run games and great defenses, bring in multiple proven and veteran Pro-Bowl WRs for their QB to use? Absolutely not. So why would the Ravens feel they needed to add such talent if they love their QB so much, and already had a great run game and defense? You would think Flacco would be able to win with Pro Bowl options Mason and TE Todd Heap, as well as leading pass receiver and Pro Bowler Ray Rice out of the backfield catching passes.

I will tell you why they knew he couldn’t get it done: It’s because the Ravens front office is one of the best in the NFL and they knew Flacco and his limitations. They also knew how he struggled on the road and late in the season.

On the road from December onward, Flacco has a QB rating of just 68.8, has thrown 12 TDs and 12 Ints in 13 total games, and is throwing for just 5.7 ypa in his 3 year career.

I said early in the season last year that Flacco was bound to do better in 2010, because he couldn’t do much worse than he did in years 1 and 2. And he did produce better statistically overall. But now we have his head coach claiming there is no better 3rd year QB in NFL history?

First let’s just look at just year 3, then we’ll look at years 1-3 as a package. Let’s compare Flacco to all 3rd year QBs in NFL history to see if Harbaugh is right or wrong that he is the best all time:

...Long article w/ stat analysis, click for more:

https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/Joe_Flacco_Analysis.html

 

[higgins]

I'm not going to defend Harbaugh's claim that he's one of the best 3rd yr QB ever, though I haven't looked at your link/stats. But, I am even more strenuously not going to back your assertion, that the Ravens' ownership/coach don't believe he's their guy... your post is difficult to take seriously.

The main WR they bought in to pair with Mason was also a possession WR -- they still lacked a WR to stretch the field. The claim you make can also be used on Matt Ryan, who had RWhite and TGonzalez to throw to...yet the Falcons gave up a smorgasboard in picks to be able to draft Julio Jones. Obviously, the Falcons ownership/coach don't have faith in Matt Ryan...

eta: You and I view Flacco completely differently in that I didn't see a QB that choked. I saw a QB that was leading the Ravens past the Steelers, but was let down by a WR (Boldin) that dropped a TD pass.

 

[Sweet Love]

In the end, Flacco is going to walk away as the 2010s version of Mark Brunell. He will win a lot of games, make people around him better, but he will be caught in the fantasy football version of a weak QB1/limited upside QB2 option. While Brunell saw 18-19 TD average in his good days, Flacco will be wallowing in the 22-23TD range during his prime (taking into accordance the pumped up passing league today).

 

[Ilov80s]

I think Flacco is overrated, but your entire argument about Housh and Boldin is just nonsense. Teams signing skill players in free agency is not a sign of them not trusting their QB.

Did the Pats not trust Tom Brady when they added Moss? Didn't the Giants sign Plaxico 1 year after Eli was drafted? Michael Turner was signed the year Matt Ryan was drafted. The Eagles had all the confidence in the world when they added TO. The reason the Ravens added those free agent WRs was because they had 3 huge holes at WR. The year prior, Mason retired and came out of retirement at the last minute. That is sketchy a #1 WR. Especially a #1 WR with declining skills and no support from his fellow WRs. The rest of their WR core consisted of Demetrius Williams (who they were ready to release), Kelley Washington, David Tyree, and Justin Harper. All fringe NFL players. They needed WRs, had the holes to fill, and the money to spend. In addition, Housh and especially Stallworth weren't exactly hot commodities that offseason. I mean Stallworth is himself a fringe NFL player- funny you consider Stallworth's signing anywhere as a reflection of an organization's view on their QB.

 

[aiverson]

I'm not going to defend Harbaugh's claim that he's one of the best 3rd yr QB ever, though I haven't looked at your link/stats. But, I am even more strenuously not going to back your assertion, that the Ravens' ownership/coach don't believe he's their guy... your post is difficult to take seriously.

The main WR they bought in to pair with Mason was also a possession WR -- they still lacked a WR to stretch the field. The claim you make can also be used on Matt Ryan, who had RWhite and TGonzalez to throw to...yet the Falcons gave up a smorgasboard in picks to be able to draft Julio Jones. Obviously, the Falcons ownership/coach don't have faith in Matt Ryan...

eta: You and I view Flacco completely differently in that I didn't see a QB that choked. I saw a QB that was leading the Ravens past the Steelers, but was let down by a WR (Boldin) that dropped a TD pass.

Huge difference between drafting a rookie WR and bringing in proven Pro-Bowler WRs from other teams. It would be more in-line w/ the Ravens to draft a great WR. Instead, they paid for the proven guys because they know they have a window and they know Flacco needed that level of help. I'm not saying Flacco choked in one game vs. the Steelers, I'm talking his first 3 yrs as a whole. Want to know the dagger stat?

Since he came to Baltimore, the Ravens have been losing after the 3rd qtr in 14 games. They lost the game 13 of 14 times. The only game he was able to bring them back to win was vs. the lowly Browns.

 

[Tau837]

I'm not saying Flacco choked in one game vs. the Steelers, I'm talking his first 3 yrs as a whole. Want to know the dagger stat?Since he came to Baltimore, the Ravens have been losing after the 3rd qtr in 14 games. They lost the game 13 of 14 times. The only game he was able to bring them back to win was vs. the lowly Browns.

PFR shows 4 4th quarter comebacks and another 4 game winning drives for Flacco. I think that is more meaningful than your "dagger stat".Aside from that, I think your premise about free agents is completely wrong. However, I also think Flacco is a bit overrated.

 

[adrenaline]

If they had a QB they could trust to win big games, they wouldn't have needed to add all these weapons.

What?

 

[Ilov80s]

I'm not going to defend Harbaugh's claim that he's one of the best 3rd yr QB ever, though I haven't looked at your link/stats. But, I am even more strenuously not going to back your assertion, that the Ravens' ownership/coach don't believe he's their guy... your post is difficult to take seriously.

The main WR they bought in to pair with Mason was also a possession WR -- they still lacked a WR to stretch the field. The claim you make can also be used on Matt Ryan, who had RWhite and TGonzalez to throw to...yet the Falcons gave up a smorgasboard in picks to be able to draft Julio Jones. Obviously, the Falcons ownership/coach don't have faith in Matt Ryan...

eta: You and I view Flacco completely differently in that I didn't see a QB that choked. I saw a QB that was leading the Ravens past the Steelers, but was let down by a WR (Boldin) that dropped a TD pass.

Huge difference between drafting a rookie WR and bringing in proven Pro-Bowler WRs from other teams. It would be more in-line w/ the Ravens to draft a great WR. Instead, they paid for the proven guys because they know they have a window and they know Flacco needed that level of help.

I'm not saying Flacco choked in one game vs. the Steelers, I'm talking his first 3 yrs as a whole. Want to know the dagger stat?

Since he came to Baltimore, the Ravens have been losing after the 3rd qtr in 14 games. They lost the game 13 of 14 times. The only game he was able to bring them back to win was vs. the lowly Browns.

Their window is closing because Ed Reed and Ray Lewis are near the end. Ofcourse Flacco needed help. Every QB does. The Ravens had Derrick Mason and Todd Heap as the only viable down field passing options. You can't seriously think Stallworth was some big signing so he has no place in this conversation and was nothing more then depth. Also, I think you are really overrating Housh. If the guy was such a big time signing, how did the Ravens get him for the veteran minimum? They got those guys for good prices and they filled huge holes. Boldin was the big feather in the cap. Mason won't be around forever and was neverthe great Pro Bowler you make him out to be. Mason has been to 2 Pro Bowls and his last trip was 2003. While Housh had been more recenly, it was his only trip to Honolulu. Your entire argument is deeply flawed.

 

[Ilov80s]

If they had a QB they could trust to win big games, they wouldn't have needed to add all these weapons.

What?

Right, the Colts must have had 0 trust in Manning all these years. That explains them constantly drafting skill players with high picks.

 

[roadkill1292]

He may not even be the best third year QB over 6-foot-5 with a single eyebrow ever.

 

[adrenaline]

He may not even be the best third year QB over 6-foot-5 with a single eyebrow ever.

 

[aiverson]

I'm not saying Flacco choked in one game vs. the Steelers, I'm talking his first 3 yrs as a whole. Want to know the dagger stat?

Since he came to Baltimore, the Ravens have been losing after the 3rd qtr in 14 games. They lost the game 13 of 14 times. The only game he was able to bring them back to win was vs. the lowly Browns.

PFR shows 4 4th quarter comebacks and another 4 game winning drives for Flacco. I think that is more meaningful than your "dagger stat".Aside from that, I think your premise about free agents is completely wrong. However, I also think Flacco is a bit overrated.

Direct from my article: In Flacco’s first 3 years, he has four 4th quarter comebacks, ranking 45th in NFL history. Current QBs such as Peyton, Big Ben and Matt Ryan have at least double that number in their first 3 seasons.When it comes to game winning drives, Flacco ranks 35th in NFL history in a QB’s first 3 seasons. Players like Big Ben, Peyton, Ryan, Delhomme, Rivers, Palmer and Cutler rank higher, as do players with fewer than 3 seasons under their belt, like Mark Sanchez and Josh Freeman.

Remember, Harbaugh said he's "Statistically one of the best 3rd yr QBs in the history of football".

I'm not going to defend Harbaugh's claim that he's one of the best 3rd yr QB ever, though I haven't looked at your link/stats. But, I am even more strenuously not going to back your assertion, that the Ravens' ownership/coach don't believe he's their guy... your post is difficult to take seriously.

The main WR they bought in to pair with Mason was also a possession WR -- they still lacked a WR to stretch the field. The claim you make can also be used on Matt Ryan, who had RWhite and TGonzalez to throw to...yet the Falcons gave up a smorgasboard in picks to be able to draft Julio Jones. Obviously, the Falcons ownership/coach don't have faith in Matt Ryan...

eta: You and I view Flacco completely differently in that I didn't see a QB that choked. I saw a QB that was leading the Ravens past the Steelers, but was let down by a WR (Boldin) that dropped a TD pass.

Huge difference between drafting a rookie WR and bringing in proven Pro-Bowler WRs from other teams. It would be more in-line w/ the Ravens to draft a great WR. Instead, they paid for the proven guys because they know they have a window and they know Flacco needed that level of help.

I'm not saying Flacco choked in one game vs. the Steelers, I'm talking his first 3 yrs as a whole. Want to know the dagger stat?

Since he came to Baltimore, the Ravens have been losing after the 3rd qtr in 14 games. They lost the game 13 of 14 times. The only game he was able to bring them back to win was vs. the lowly Browns.

Their window is closing because Ed Reed and Ray Lewis are near the end. Ofcourse Flacco needed help. Every QB does. The Ravens had Derrick Mason and Todd Heap as the only viable down field passing options. You can't seriously think Stallworth was some big signing so he has no place in this conversation and was nothing more then depth. Also, I think you are really overrating Housh. If the guy was such a big time signing, how did the Ravens get him for the veteran minimum? They got those guys for good prices and they filled huge holes. Boldin was the big feather in the cap. Mason won't be around forever and was neverthe great Pro Bowler you make him out to be. Mason has been to 2 Pro Bowls and his last trip was 2003. While Housh had been more recenly, it was his only trip to Honolulu. Your entire argument is deeply flawed.

Veteran players w/ above avg resumes such as Housh could have commanded more from other teams. But they sometimes go to teams perceived to be on the "brink" so that they can win a title. Happens all the time in many sports. It was a desperate move for the Ravens to sign Boldin, Housh and Stallworth, and if they really had a QB they believed in, with that type of run game and a still above avg defense, they would not need to desperately stray from their winning formula (building through the draft).

If they had a QB they could trust to win big games, they wouldn't have needed to add all these weapons.

What?

Right, the Colts must have had 0 trust in Manning all these years. That explains them constantly drafting skill players with high picks.

Exactly - HUGE difference from "drafting" skill players (smart move that is done by winning organizations such as Pats, Packers, Steelers and Colts) vs. desperately signing big name FAs that usually never quite live up to their hype (dumb move that is done by losing organizations such as Skins). The Ravens and Ozzie are renowned for great drafting. They simply reached here in FA because they knew they had to help their struggling QB more than they hoped they would have to.

 

[jacobo_moses]

If Flacco was so overrated like a lot of you are saying. Then why would Steve Smith have the Ravens as a choice of a place to go??? Now granted I think Flacco at times is slightly overrated. But I also thought a lot of times his offensive line sucks. And I saw multiple players drop balls that were right in there hands from Flacco. So some of the blame does go on Flacco but not all of it. THis was recently posted about Steve Smith

There has been speculation for months that the veteran Panthers wide receiver Steve Smith wants to be traded. Smith has been largely silent on the topic.

According to Tom Sorensen of the Charlotte Observer, multiple sources have confirmed his trade request. A source says his teams of choice are San Diego and Baltimore.

The Panthers aren’t obligated to trade him and of course it depends on what the Panthers might get in return for Smith.

Now why would Steve Smith want to play for the Ravens if they had a crappy QB who can't win games, and for a team that isn't close to winning it all?? Hmm maybe he isn't as bad as some on here are painting him out to be.

 

[PahtyTom]

He's good. I'd put him in the top half of the league with guys like Schaub and Eli. He can have some elite stretches, but he is not elite and prob never will be. Not a knock, guy can still ball.

 

[sihaokills]

Joe Flacco is a little overrated for his arm but he has potential to be a stud. The guy has great mobility and the Ravens drafted and picked up receivers to be less 1 dimensional. The Ravens picked up old guys so they drafted young talent like Torrey Smith and Tandom Doss. The TEs are solid too.

 

[Ilov80s]

I'm not saying Flacco choked in one game vs. the Steelers, I'm talking his first 3 yrs as a whole. Want to know the dagger stat?

Since he came to Baltimore, the Ravens have been losing after the 3rd qtr in 14 games. They lost the game 13 of 14 times. The only game he was able to bring them back to win was vs. the lowly Browns.

PFR shows 4 4th quarter comebacks and another 4 game winning drives for Flacco. I think that is more meaningful than your "dagger stat".Aside from that, I think your premise about free agents is completely wrong. However, I also think Flacco is a bit overrated.

Direct from my article: In Flacco's first 3 years, he has four 4th quarter comebacks, ranking 45th in NFL history. Current QBs such as Peyton, Big Ben and Matt Ryan have at least double that number in their first 3 seasons.When it comes to game winning drives, Flacco ranks 35th in NFL history in a QB's first 3 seasons. Players like Big Ben, Peyton, Ryan, Delhomme, Rivers, Palmer and Cutler rank higher, as do players with fewer than 3 seasons under their belt, like Mark Sanchez and Josh Freeman.

Remember, Harbaugh said he's "Statistically one of the best 3rd yr QBs in the history of football".

I'm not going to defend Harbaugh's claim that he's one of the best 3rd yr QB ever, though I haven't looked at your link/stats. But, I am even more strenuously not going to back your assertion, that the Ravens' ownership/coach don't believe he's their guy... your post is difficult to take seriously.

The main WR they bought in to pair with Mason was also a possession WR -- they still lacked a WR to stretch the field. The claim you make can also be used on Matt Ryan, who had RWhite and TGonzalez to throw to...yet the Falcons gave up a smorgasboard in picks to be able to draft Julio Jones. Obviously, the Falcons ownership/coach don't have faith in Matt Ryan...

eta: You and I view Flacco completely differently in that I didn't see a QB that choked. I saw a QB that was leading the Ravens past the Steelers, but was let down by a WR (Boldin) that dropped a TD pass.

Huge difference between drafting a rookie WR and bringing in proven Pro-Bowler WRs from other teams. It would be more in-line w/ the Ravens to draft a great WR. Instead, they paid for the proven guys because they know they have a window and they know Flacco needed that level of help.

I'm not saying Flacco choked in one game vs. the Steelers, I'm talking his first 3 yrs as a whole. Want to know the dagger stat?

Since he came to Baltimore, the Ravens have been losing after the 3rd qtr in 14 games. They lost the game 13 of 14 times. The only game he was able to bring them back to win was vs. the lowly Browns.

Their window is closing because Ed Reed and Ray Lewis are near the end. Ofcourse Flacco needed help. Every QB does. The Ravens had Derrick Mason and Todd Heap as the only viable down field passing options. You can't seriously think Stallworth was some big signing so he has no place in this conversation and was nothing more then depth. Also, I think you are really overrating Housh. If the guy was such a big time signing, how did the Ravens get him for the veteran minimum? They got those guys for good prices and they filled huge holes. Boldin was the big feather in the cap. Mason won't be around forever and was neverthe great Pro Bowler you make him out to be. Mason has been to 2 Pro Bowls and his last trip was 2003. While Housh had been more recenly, it was his only trip to Honolulu. Your entire argument is deeply flawed.

Veteran players w/ above avg resumes such as Housh could have commanded more from other teams. But they sometimes go to teams perceived to be on the "brink" so that they can win a title. Happens all the time in many sports. It was a desperate move for the Ravens to sign Boldin, Housh and Stallworth, and if they really had a QB they believed in, with that type of run game and a still above avg defense, they would not need to desperately stray from their winning formula (building through the draft).

If they had a QB they could trust to win big games, they wouldn't have needed to add all these weapons.

What?

Right, the Colts must have had 0 trust in Manning all these years. That explains them constantly drafting skill players with high picks.

Exactly - HUGE difference from "drafting" skill players (smart move that is done by winning organizations such as Pats, Packers, Steelers and Colts) vs. desperately signing big name FAs that usually never quite live up to their hype (dumb move that is done by losing organizations such as Skins). The Ravens and Ozzie are renowned for great drafting. They simply reached here in FA because they knew they had to help their struggling QB more than they hoped they would have to.

Struggling QB Flacco had the 13th highest QB rating in 2009. Pretty darn good for a 2nd year QB, nowhere near struggling. As for the Ravens changing their strategy with signing veteran FAs at WR makes sense. They obviously had a lot of trouble developing WRs and every high WR they took was a huge bust. Also, I can not reiterate enough how insignificant Stallworth is.

 

[aiverson]

If Flacco was so overrated like a lot of you are saying. Then why would Steve Smith have the Ravens as a choice of a place to go??? Now granted I think Flacco at times is slightly overrated. But I also thought a lot of times his offensive line sucks. And I saw multiple players drop balls that were right in there hands from Flacco. So some of the blame does go on Flacco but not all of it. THis was recently posted about Steve SmithThere has been speculation for months that the veteran Panthers wide receiver Steve Smith wants to be traded. Smith has been largely silent on the topic.According to Tom Sorensen of the Charlotte Observer, multiple sources have confirmed his trade request. A source says his teams of choice are San Diego and Baltimore.The Panthers aren’t obligated to trade him and of course it depends on what the Panthers might get in return for Smith.Now why would Steve Smith want to play for the Ravens if they had a crappy QB who can't win games, and for a team that isn't close to winning it all?? Hmm maybe he isn't as bad as some on here are painting him out to be.

I think you are missing the point. Please tell me when I said "Flacco is a crappy QB who can't win games and his team isn't close to winning it all?"The discussion was born when his HC said "Statistically, he's one of the best 3rd year QBs in the history of football".I think I provided enough stats to show he's far FAR from that. He is far from crappy however. And he's a HUGE upgrade over any QB that the Panthers have right now. Why the hell wouldn't Steve Smith want to get out of town from a team that's rebuilding? He wants to go to a team who is consistently in the playoffs and is close to winning it all. Of course the Ravens fit that bill. And I'll tell you what, judging by how the Ravens front office is so desperate to help Flacco overcome his deficiencies, they probably would love having SS too.

 

[aiverson]

Struggling QB Flacco had the 13th highest QB rating in 2009. Pretty darn good for a 2nd year QB, nowhere near struggling. As for the Ravens changing their strategy with signing veteran FAs at WR makes sense. They obviously had a lot of trouble developing WRs and every high WR they took was a huge bust. Also, I can not reiterate enough how insignificant Stallworth is.

For whatever reason, Flacco plays great at home, terrible on the road. Better vs. crap teams or decent opponents during the season, far worse in clutch games or in the playoffs.He completely struggles in those spots. Sure, factor in the home games where he records 120+ ratings in blowouts vs. crappy opposition if you want. Franchise QBs, especially ones who are "Statistically, one of the best 3rd yr QBs in the history of football" should be able to do average (minimum) on the road.On the road from December onward, Flacco has a QB rating of just 68.8, has thrown 12 TDs and 12 Ints in 13 total games, and is throwing for just 5.7 ypa in his 3 year career.Of all QBs ever in the history of football in their first 3 yrs, Flacco has thrown for fewer than 7.5 yds/attempt the most. As in, he's actually the WORST QB in the history of football, statistically. More than Kyle Boller, more than Joey Harrington, Byron Leftwich, Rick Mirer, Alex Smith and every single other mediocre or bad QB you want to mention.Stallworth was even more insignificant because of how they used him. He ranks 16th overall of all active WRs in yds/reception. Not saying he's even their 3rd best WR, but that's part of the point. When you already have Mason and Heap, plus factoring in that Ray Rice is your leading receiver in 2009 (for # of receptions) and you bring in Boldin and Housh, of course Stallworth will rarely see the field...

 

[simey]

I'm not going to defend Harbaugh's claim that he's one of the best 3rd yr QB ever, though I haven't looked at your link/stats. But, I am even more strenuously not going to back your assertion, that the Ravens' ownership/coach don't believe he's their guy... your post is difficult to take seriously.

The main WR they bought in to pair with Mason was also a possession WR -- they still lacked a WR to stretch the field. The claim you make can also be used on Matt Ryan, who had RWhite and TGonzalez to throw to...yet the Falcons gave up a smorgasboard in picks to be able to draft Julio Jones. Obviously, the Falcons ownership/coach don't have faith in Matt Ryan...

eta: You and I view Flacco completely differently in that I didn't see a QB that choked. I saw a QB that was leading the Ravens past the Steelers, but was let down by a WR (Boldin) that dropped a TD pass.

I agree with Higgins.

 

[aiverson]

Witness Exhibit 5 for Flacco choking:

When the Ravens are losing after the 3rd quarter, they are 1-13 in all games since Flacco came to town. And its not as if those games were blowouts - they are 0-6 when trailing by 6 or fewer points after the third quarter, and 0-4 when trailing by 2 or 3 points after the 3rd quarter. It illustrates his lack of being "clutch" in these spots or willing his team to victory.

Contrast that w/ Josh Freeman, who last year alone went 3-5 when trailing after the 3rd quarter, including a remarkable 3-1 when trailing heading into the 4th by 5 or fewer points.

In the 2 years prior to Flacco coming to town (06 & 07), the Ravens were actually 3-5 when trailing by 11 or fewer points entering the 4th quarter. And if you only look at Steve McNair, when he was on the team in 06, they went 3-2 when trailing by 11 or fewer points entering the 4th.

Oops - sorry, these are stats. Even though the coach said made his claim based on stats, let's argue the point without using stats to make it seem like Flacco is really as solid as the Ravens publicly state he is.

 

[We Tigers]

When did Troy Smith start posting here?

 

[The_Man]

He may not even be the best third year QB over 6-foot-5 with a single eyebrow ever.

Love my Ravens fans.I think the stats Harbaugh talks about include: * Most combined regular and postseason wins in first three years as a quarterback: 36 (tied with Dan Marino) * First quarterback to start and win a playoff game in each of his first three seasons * Most playoff road wins in a career: 4 (tied with Len Dawson, Roger Staubach, Jake Delhomme, and Mark Sanchez)Flacco should have taken a big step forward last year, but instead he stayed the same and the running game took a giant step backward. Talk in Baltimore is that they are ditching the zone blocking scheme that ruined their run game last year. We will see - this is the year for Flacco to show whether he's Pro Bowl caliber (which is tough in the AFC with Brady, Manning, Rivers) or just good. But he's already the best QB in Ravens history.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It was a desperate move for the Ravens to sign Boldin, Housh and Stallworth, and if they really had a QB they believed in, with that type of run game and a still above avg defense, they would not need to desperately stray from their winning formula (building through the draft).

If you keep repeating this enough times, maybe it will somehow become true.Without taking a stance one way or another on Flacco, I'd say your premise is deeply flawed. Adding weapons to the passing games generally means a team has confidence in their QB and are looking to add more responsibility to his shoulders.

 

[Ilov80s]

Struggling QB Flacco had the 13th highest QB rating in 2009. Pretty darn good for a 2nd year QB, nowhere near struggling. As for the Ravens changing their strategy with signing veteran FAs at WR makes sense. They obviously had a lot of trouble developing WRs and every high WR they took was a huge bust. Also, I can not reiterate enough how insignificant Stallworth is.

For whatever reason, Flacco plays great at home, terrible on the road. Better vs. crap teams or decent opponents during the season, far worse in clutch games or in the playoffs.He completely struggles in those spots. Sure, factor in the home games where he records 120+ ratings in blowouts vs. crappy opposition if you want. Franchise QBs, especially ones who are "Statistically, one of the best 3rd yr QBs in the history of football" should be able to do average (minimum) on the road.

On the road from December onward, Flacco has a QB rating of just 68.8, has thrown 12 TDs and 12 Ints in 13 total games, and is throwing for just 5.7 ypa in his 3 year career.

Of all QBs ever in the history of football in their first 3 yrs, Flacco has thrown for fewer than 7.5 yds/attempt the most. As in, he's actually the WORST QB in the history of football, statistically. More than Kyle Boller, more than Joey Harrington, Byron Leftwich, Rick Mirer, Alex Smith and every single other mediocre or bad QB you want to mention.

Stallworth was even more insignificant because of how they used him. He ranks 16th overall of all active WRs in yds/reception. Not saying he's even their 3rd best WR, but that's part of the point. When you already have Mason and Heap, plus factoring in that Ray Rice is your leading receiver in 2009 (for # of receptions) and you bring in Boldin and Housh, of course Stallworth will rarely see the field...

I find that stat very hard to believe considering he was 11th in the league in yards/attempt in 2010 and 14th in 2009.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

Flacco is just entering his fourth season, I think it's pretty tough to say what he will be. He has been good more often than not and he has the athletic tools for sure. He hasn't been clutch in the big games and he has the deer in headlights look at times. I'm sure there are 18-20 other NFL teams that would love to have him and find out what his ceiling will be.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I think you are missing the point. Please tell me when I said "Flacco is a crappy QB who can't win games and his team isn't close to winning it all?"The discussion was born when his HC said "Statistically, he's one of the best 3rd year QBs in the history of football".I think I provided enough stats to show he's far FAR from that. He is far from crappy however. And he's a HUGE upgrade over any QB that the Panthers have right now. Why the hell wouldn't Steve Smith want to get out of town from a team that's rebuilding? He wants to go to a team who is consistently in the playoffs and is close to winning it all. Of course the Ravens fit that bill. And I'll tell you what, judging by how the Ravens front office is so desperate to help Flacco overcome his deficiencies, they probably would love having SS too.

No one is arguing with you on the "best 3rd year QB in the history of the league" thing. It was pretty clearly just hyperbole from a coach talking about his quarterback. I don't know why you keep bringing it up.What people ARE arguing with you about is this crazy notion that signing a good WR somehow means that you have no confidence in your quarterback.

 

[Mohawk]

I am a Ravens fan and while I love most things Ozzie, over the years he has shown an inability to draft a play making WR. So last off-season he traded for Boldin and signed a couple free agent WRs (Stallworth and Housh). In no way did I ever think that showed a lack of confidence in Flacco, in fact, quite the opposite. It showed a belief that he was ready to step up big time and make the Ravens a feared passing team. That effort failed in my view, but that does not mean they lacked confidence in Flacco! Therefore your premise in your argument is seriously flawed and everything else follows. However, I feel Flacco is a bit overrated but I am far from ready to give up on him.

 

[Jason Wood]

Let's recognize this for what it is, a head coach pumping up his guy in an offseason where his QB has been in a bit of a huff about his status with the team and his contract. Now that said, regardless of what I or others may think of Flacco as a football player, Harbaugh isn't wrong in his assertion STATISTICALLY. I'm sure Harbaugh chose his words carefully, and knows that there aren't too many 4th year guys who started 48 games in their first three years, much less guys who fit that mold in the modern, pass happy era.

For those who care:

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/histdatadom.php?groupyears=1&minyr=1960&maxyr=2010&tm=all&pos=qb&minage=19&maxage=46&minexp=1&maxexp=3&stat1=pyd&stat1min=&stat1max=&stat2=ptd&stat2min=&stat2max=&stat3=ypa&stat3min=&stat3max=&stat4=none&stat4min=&stat4max=&sortby1=s1&ad1=desc&sortby2=alph&ad2=asc&display=p

Flacco ranks 5th among all 3-year QBs in passing yards

8th in TD passes

16th in completion rate

Do those qualify as "best ever?" Not in my book, but if I were a head coach trying to pimp my QB? Sure.

 

[JPeso]

I'm guilty of not giving Flacco enough credit, due to admitted mancrushes on both Ryan and Freeman. He is a very nice player. Adding Torrey and Doss should help pull the pressure off Boldin, and getting Heap back is probably bigger than us FF guys want to make it.

 

[Fly]

Struggling QB Flacco had the 13th highest QB rating in 2009. Pretty darn good for a 2nd year QB, nowhere near struggling. As for the Ravens changing their strategy with signing veteran FAs at WR makes sense. They obviously had a lot of trouble developing WRs and every high WR they took was a huge bust. Also, I can not reiterate enough how insignificant Stallworth is.

For whatever reason, Flacco plays great at home, terrible on the road. Better vs. crap teams or decent opponents during the season, far worse in clutch games or in the playoffs.He completely struggles in those spots. Sure, factor in the home games where he records 120+ ratings in blowouts vs. crappy opposition if you want. Franchise QBs, especially ones who are "Statistically, one of the best 3rd yr QBs in the history of football" should be able to do average (minimum) on the road.

On the road from December onward, Flacco has a QB rating of just 68.8, has thrown 12 TDs and 12 Ints in 13 total games, and is throwing for just 5.7 ypa in his 3 year career.

Of all QBs ever in the history of football in their first 3 yrs, Flacco has thrown for fewer than 7.5 yds/attempt the most. As in, he's actually the WORST QB in the history of football, statistically. More than Kyle Boller, more than Joey Harrington, Byron Leftwich, Rick Mirer, Alex Smith and every single other mediocre or bad QB you want to mention.

Stallworth was even more insignificant because of how they used him. He ranks 16th overall of all active WRs in yds/reception. Not saying he's even their 3rd best WR, but that's part of the point. When you already have Mason and Heap, plus factoring in that Ray Rice is your leading receiver in 2009 (for # of receptions) and you bring in Boldin and Housh, of course Stallworth will rarely see the field...

I find that stat very hard to believe considering he was 11th in the league in yards/attempt in 2010 and 14th in 2009.

It's hard to believe because it's completely false.http://pfref.com/pi/share/j3yQS

He's tied for 26th.

You want to know more? He's tied for 5th all time for most games with a 7.5 or greater YPA through his first three seasons with 20. The Ravens are 17-3 in those games.

http://pfref.com/pi/share/JKYHf

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Huge difference between drafting a rookie WR and bringing in proven Pro-Bowler WRs from other teams. It would be more in-line w/ the Ravens to draft a great WR. Instead, they paid for the proven guys because they know they have a window and they know Flacco needed that level of help.

Are you serious? Have you seen the WRs the Ravens have drafted? For whatever reason, the Ravens have always had a blind spot when it comes to drafting WRs (& QBs, until Flacco).

And the Ravens have never shied away from bringing in vets - Rod Woodson, Shannon Sharpe, Derrick Mason, Samari Rolle, Matt Birk, Mike McCrary, Trevor Price, Zeus, Lo Neal, McGahee, etc... All of these guys and many more have come in as established players from other teams and have helped the Ravens win ball games.

Flacco has his faults (Wood hit it on the head in regards to Harbaugh's motives for saying what he did) and I'm not sure he has the "it" factor that makes for elite QBs (I'm starting to suspect not), but I absolutely think the team can win with him provided they're solid everywhere else. I don't mean they have to carry him, just that I don't think - based on what I've seen so far - that he can carry them.

 

[roadkill1292]

Huge difference between drafting a rookie WR and bringing in proven Pro-Bowler WRs from other teams. It would be more in-line w/ the Ravens to draft a great WR. Instead, they paid for the proven guys because they know they have a window and they know Flacco needed that level of help.

Are you serious? Have you seen the WRs the Ravens have drafted? For whatever reason, the Ravens have always had a blind spot when it comes to drafting WRs (& QBs, until Flacco).

And the Ravens have never shied away from bringing in vets - Rod Woodson, Shannon Sharpe, Derrick Mason, Samari Rolle, Matt Birk, Mike McCrary, Trevor Price, Zeus, Lo Neal, McGahee, etc... All of these guys and many more have come in as established players from other teams and have helped the Ravens win ball games.

Flacco has his faults (Wood hit it on the head in regards to Harbaugh's motives for saying what he did) and I'm not sure he has the "it" factor that makes for elite QBs (I'm starting to suspect not), but I absolutely think the team can win with him provided they're solid everywhere else. I don't mean they have to carry him, just that I don't think - based on what I've seen so far - that he can carry them.

 

[aiverson]

Struggling QB Flacco had the 13th highest QB rating in 2009. Pretty darn good for a 2nd year QB, nowhere near struggling. As for the Ravens changing their strategy with signing veteran FAs at WR makes sense. They obviously had a lot of trouble developing WRs and every high WR they took was a huge bust. Also, I can not reiterate enough how insignificant Stallworth is.

For whatever reason, Flacco plays great at home, terrible on the road. Better vs. crap teams or decent opponents during the season, far worse in clutch games or in the playoffs.He completely struggles in those spots. Sure, factor in the home games where he records 120+ ratings in blowouts vs. crappy opposition if you want. Franchise QBs, especially ones who are "Statistically, one of the best 3rd yr QBs in the history of football" should be able to do average (minimum) on the road.

On the road from December onward, Flacco has a QB rating of just 68.8, has thrown 12 TDs and 12 Ints in 13 total games, and is throwing for just 5.7 ypa in his 3 year career.

Of all QBs ever in the history of football in their first 3 yrs, Flacco has thrown for fewer than 7.5 yds/attempt the most. As in, he's actually the WORST QB in the history of football, statistically. More than Kyle Boller, more than Joey Harrington, Byron Leftwich, Rick Mirer, Alex Smith and every single other mediocre or bad QB you want to mention.

Stallworth was even more insignificant because of how they used him. He ranks 16th overall of all active WRs in yds/reception. Not saying he's even their 3rd best WR, but that's part of the point. When you already have Mason and Heap, plus factoring in that Ray Rice is your leading receiver in 2009 (for # of receptions) and you bring in Boldin and Housh, of course Stallworth will rarely see the field...

I find that stat very hard to believe considering he was 11th in the league in yards/attempt in 2010 and 14th in 2009.

Should have been more specific. Road games was the only qualifier. Flacco plays MUCH better at home, its not even close, at least so far in his career.http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&year_min=1960&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=3&age_min=0&age_max=99&league_id=&team_id=&opp_id=&game_type=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&game_day_of_week=&game_location=R&game_result=&is_active=&is_hof=&c1stat=pass_yds_per_att&c1comp=lt&c1val=7.5&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pass_td

 

[chitlins3]

Struggling QB Flacco had the 13th highest QB rating in 2009. Pretty darn good for a 2nd year QB, nowhere near struggling. As for the Ravens changing their strategy with signing veteran FAs at WR makes sense. They obviously had a lot of trouble developing WRs and every high WR they took was a huge bust. Also, I can not reiterate enough how insignificant Stallworth is.

For whatever reason, Flacco plays great at home, terrible on the road. Better vs. crap teams or decent opponents during the season, far worse in clutch games or in the playoffs.He completely struggles in those spots. Sure, factor in the home games where he records 120+ ratings in blowouts vs. crappy opposition if you want. Franchise QBs, especially ones who are "Statistically, one of the best 3rd yr QBs in the history of football" should be able to do average (minimum) on the road.

On the road from December onward, Flacco has a QB rating of just 68.8, has thrown 12 TDs and 12 Ints in 13 total games, and is throwing for just 5.7 ypa in his 3 year career.

Of all QBs ever in the history of football in their first 3 yrs, Flacco has thrown for fewer than 7.5 yds/attempt the most. As in, he's actually the WORST QB in the history of football, statistically. More than Kyle Boller, more than Joey Harrington, Byron Leftwich, Rick Mirer, Alex Smith and every single other mediocre or bad QB you want to mention.

Stallworth was even more insignificant because of how they used him. He ranks 16th overall of all active WRs in yds/reception. Not saying he's even their 3rd best WR, but that's part of the point. When you already have Mason and Heap, plus factoring in that Ray Rice is your leading receiver in 2009 (for # of receptions) and you bring in Boldin and Housh, of course Stallworth will rarely see the field...

I find that stat very hard to believe considering he was 11th in the league in yards/attempt in 2010 and 14th in 2009.

Should have been more specific. Road games was the only qualifier. Flacco plays MUCH better at home, its not even close, at least so far in his career.http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&year_min=1960&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=3&age_min=0&age_max=99&league_id=&team_id=&opp_id=&game_type=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&game_day_of_week=&game_location=R&game_result=&is_active=&is_hof=&c1stat=pass_yds_per_att&c1comp=lt&c1val=7.5&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pass_td

Stop it. That link covers regular season and playoff road games. Flacco played in 7 road playoff games in his first three years, meaning he had 7 more games and opportunities to add to his total than the other guys on the list. If you limit it to regular season games, Flacco is 19th. regular season only. But I think you knew that.

 

[B-Deep]

aiverson making a great case that he needs to be put on staff

 

[aiverson]

Struggling QB Flacco had the 13th highest QB rating in 2009. Pretty darn good for a 2nd year QB, nowhere near struggling. As for the Ravens changing their strategy with signing veteran FAs at WR makes sense. They obviously had a lot of trouble developing WRs and every high WR they took was a huge bust. Also, I can not reiterate enough how insignificant Stallworth is.

For whatever reason, Flacco plays great at home, terrible on the road. Better vs. crap teams or decent opponents during the season, far worse in clutch games or in the playoffs.He completely struggles in those spots. Sure, factor in the home games where he records 120+ ratings in blowouts vs. crappy opposition if you want. Franchise QBs, especially ones who are "Statistically, one of the best 3rd yr QBs in the history of football" should be able to do average (minimum) on the road.

On the road from December onward, Flacco has a QB rating of just 68.8, has thrown 12 TDs and 12 Ints in 13 total games, and is throwing for just 5.7 ypa in his 3 year career.

Of all QBs ever in the history of football in their first 3 yrs, Flacco has thrown for fewer than 7.5 yds/attempt the most. As in, he's actually the WORST QB in the history of football, statistically. More than Kyle Boller, more than Joey Harrington, Byron Leftwich, Rick Mirer, Alex Smith and every single other mediocre or bad QB you want to mention.

Stallworth was even more insignificant because of how they used him. He ranks 16th overall of all active WRs in yds/reception. Not saying he's even their 3rd best WR, but that's part of the point. When you already have Mason and Heap, plus factoring in that Ray Rice is your leading receiver in 2009 (for # of receptions) and you bring in Boldin and Housh, of course Stallworth will rarely see the field...

I find that stat very hard to believe considering he was 11th in the league in yards/attempt in 2010 and 14th in 2009.

Should have been more specific. Road games was the only qualifier. Flacco plays MUCH better at home, its not even close, at least so far in his career.http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&year_min=1960&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=3&age_min=0&age_max=99&league_id=&team_id=&opp_id=&game_type=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&game_day_of_week=&game_location=R&game_result=&is_active=&is_hof=&c1stat=pass_yds_per_att&c1comp=lt&c1val=7.5&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pass_td

Stop it. That link covers regular season and playoff road games. Flacco played in 7 road playoff games in his first three years, meaning he had 7 more games and opportunities to add to his total than the other guys on the list. If you limit it to regular season games, Flacco is 19th. regular season only. But I think you knew that.

You are proving my point though. I said from the first post: "He has a big arm, he has a big body, he throws a good deep ball." And I went on to say how he chokes in big games.Flacco is a decent starting QB. I never said he wasn't. He's certainly not top 3 statistically. He could become a lot better if he figured out how to win in big games that are on his shoulders, if he could handle pressure, if he can win on the road and in the playoffs based purely on his performance. Take the team on his back and win mentality. Obviously the great vet QBs do that, like Manning and Brady. But there are younger QBs out there who do it much more routinely than Flacco, like Josh Freeman, Big Ben, Matty Ice... even real rookie guys show signs of it like Sam Bradford or Matt Stafford.

The stats on Flacco that make me cringe (If I were a Ravens/Flacco fan are):

1. On the road from December onward, Flacco has a QB rating of just 68.8, has thrown 12 TDs and 12 Ints in 13 total games, and is throwing for just 5.7 ypa in his 3 year career.

2. When the Ravens are losing after the 3rd quarter, they are 1-13 in all games since Flacco came to town. And its not as if those games were blowouts - they are 0-6 when trailing by 6 or fewer points after the third quarter, and 0-4 when trailing by 2 or 3 points after the 3rd quarter.

3. Lack of 4th quarter comebacks (just 4 in his 3 yr career ranks 45th all time in a QBs first 3 yrs) and lack of game winning drives (35th) behind guys like Mark Sanchez, Josh Freeman, Matt Ryan and even older QBs did in their first 3 yrs, like Palmer, Cutler, Rivers and Delhomme. Obviously he's played in a lot of games as you guys point out, so he should have more of these.

 

[Vicktimized]

With guys like Peyton Manning, McNabb, Elway, Warren Moon and Favre littering the top 21 of this list, it's no wonder it's pimped to show Joe Flacco as the bees knees of scrub QBs.

 

[massraider]

Remember when the Pats brought in Randy Moss because they didn't believe in Tom Brady?

 

[aiverson]

Remember when the Pats brought in Randy Moss because they didn't believe in Tom Brady?

The year before the Pats brought in Randy Moss, their #1 WR was Reche Caldwell and #2 was 35 yr old Troy Brown. Moss was off a terrible 2006 w/ Oakland, with just 42 catches for 550 yds and 3 TDs, and everyone saw him as a cancer.Yea, OK, sounds exactly like what the Ravens did when they already had Mason and Heap, and brought in arguably the most coveted FA WR that year in Boldin, with 84 catches for 1,024 yds the prior season. But they also brought in TJ Houshmandzadeh who himself was 2 yrs removed from 92 catches, 1,143 yds and 12 TDs when he went to the pro-bowl in 07. Sounds identical, yea... More like the Pats really did believe in Brady back in 01 and 02, so instead of bringing in some high priced, big name WRs, they used the 30 yr old PR converted to WR Troy Brown as their #1 WR both years and Tom Terrific got the job done.

 

[massraider]

Remember when the Pats brought in Randy Moss because they didn't believe in Tom Brady?

The year before the Pats brought in Randy Moss, their #1 WR was Reche Caldwell and #2 was 35 yr old Troy Brown. Moss was off a terrible 2006 w/ Oakland, with just 42 catches for 550 yds and 3 TDs, and everyone saw him as a cancer.Yea, OK, sounds exactly like what the Ravens did when they already had Mason and Heap, and brought in arguably the most coveted FA WR that year in Boldin, with 84 catches for 1,024 yds the prior season. But they also brought in TJ Houshmandzadeh who himself was 2 yrs removed from 92 catches, 1,143 yds and 12 TDs when he went to the pro-bowl in 07. Sounds identical, yea... More like the Pats really did believe in Brady back in 01 and 02, so instead of bringing in some high priced, big name WRs, they used the 30 yr old PR converted to WR Troy Brown as their #1 WR both years and Tom Terrific got the job done.

It's just an absurd premise. Teams build through the draft, and through free agency. Perhaps making a move for Boldin and Housh said more about the age and durability of Mason and Heap than it does about Flacco. When the #1 target is that old, and the #2 target is Todd Heap, you making it sound like they were set is kind of....disingenuous?